Determining firearm group size

[Hannibal]

Just want to pose a couple of simple questions to satisfy my curiosity.

When you shoot a group to determine the firearm's group size, how many shots do you use? 3? 5? 10?

How many errant shots do you discount as ' fliers ' ?

And how many groups do you measure and average to determine the firearm's average group size?

Fired over how many days?

Thank-you in advance for your responses.

[silverjay]

I use five round groups with nothing removed as fliers. I do two groups and usually get bored punching paper.

[williamwaco]

Revolvers 6 ( or however many the cylinder holds )
Pistols 5 ( magazine full is too many)
Hunting rifle 3 ( I have never had a target hang around long enough to shoot five shots at it. )
Target rifle or pistol 10
For Rifles, I use three or more groups to average.
For handguns five or more.

One small group means absolutely nothing.
Here is an actual example from my .38 special testing:
First three 25 yard groups measure 0.78, 1.05, 0.91 -> 10 group average was 1.55"

I do not discount flyers. If I jerked it, I toss the whole target and start over.
If I didn't jerk it, I measure it.

Over how many days? I record them all - forever. Sometimes five groups might take an hour, other times it might take a year.

[waco]

When I work up a load, I start with five shot groups to see if the load even has any potential. If it shows promise, I'll shoot ten shot groups to determine the consistency of the load.

If the barrel is clean, I'll fire at least a few fouling shots. You also want to wait a couple minutes between shots as to not get the barrel too hot.

Depending on how long I'm at the range, a few ten shot groups will tell you how the load works.

As as far as day to day goes, weather can be a big factor there. Sunny and 85 degrees x load shoots just fine. Try it on a 35 degree day and you could very possibly have much different,worse results. Lube being the culprit here.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in.
Hope this helped.
waco.

[montana_charlie]

Just want to pose a couple of simple questions to satisfy my curiosity.

When you shoot a group to determine the firearm's group size, how many shots do you use? 3? 5? 10?
Never less than 15 of a particular loading.


How many errant shots do you discount as ' fliers ' ?
None, after the first shot from a clean barrel.


And how many groups do you measure and average to determine the firearm's average group size?

Fired over how many days?
At least four sessions, sometimes fired over a period of a couple of months.

[runfiverun]

to record average group size over time I tape a new target over the old one and shoot through them both.
I have a Remington 700 in 8 mauser that is a pretty solid rifle, it will put everything in a 1-1/2" group at 100 yds.
cold bore to hot, warm and cold weather, sun and rain or snow.
it's a pretty good hunting rifle I think, no fancy tiny little groups just reliable and consistent.

[country gent]

Hunting rifles and handguns I use 5 shot groups, Varmint and true match rifles 10 shots. I normally will test several loads on a given day. Then come back and retest promising loads at a later day. I try to test a load 3-4 times around a week apart to get a true idea of actual accuracy. Haveing seen temperatures, and conditions affect a loads performence Its better to be sure. I also tend to test at full distances when posible. I have seen loads perform good at 200 yds and fall apart at 600 on out. One group is a possible fluke, a days good groups over the day is that day, a loads good grouping over 304 days a week apart each is accuracy

[Bent Ramrod]

I usually use 5 shot groups for load development. However, they are gauged in the context of the other 5-shot groups I fire while varying the charge weights of that particular powder. Generally (especially with smokeless loads for cast boolits) I can see a pattern as the powder charges are increased. The groups get smaller up to a point, and then come apart, sometimes pretty spectacularly. With jacketed bullets this is not as immediately apparent, so generally I just pick a a powder charge from a good group in the middle of the tightest ones and load up more of that for next time. If the groups maintain themselves, that is "the load" for those particular components.

I don't see how a single three- or five-shot group from one load picked at random from a Handbook or recommended by a friend would tell the shooter anything about the accuracy potential. A ten-shot group might, if all shots were very close.

[Bigslug]

Just want to pose a couple of simple questions to satisfy my curiosity.

When you shoot a group to determine the firearm's group size, how many shots do you use? 3? 5? 10?

Depends. I'll do five on a hunting rifle. Not because I expect to fire five, but because I want to know if it has any quirks with regards to warming up and what they are. A competition gun needs the ability to slam X's throughout the entire string, whatever that might be.


How many errant shots do you discount as ' fliers ' ?

Part of being a good shooter is being able to spot your "pilot errors" as you make them. If the fault was mine, I'll note it and throw another round on the target. True "fliers" are the ones you can't account for, and I don't discount those - but rather look for the frequency of their occurrence.


And how many groups do you measure and average to determine the firearm's average group size?

Fired over how many days?

My handloading process has evolved at least as much to minimize the effects of inevitable variations in brass, powder charge, temperature, etc... as it has to reduce them. Once I find "The Load" I'm usually pretty confident that it's not going to do anything different on the next trip to the range. To my recollection, this has only failed to work out once, and this was on a double .45-70 with so much extra variability built in that ammo was but one of the many head-scratchers involved.

[44man]

Mine are an average over time with 5 shot groups. If you "CALL" a flier, ignore it. But those that were not your fault will be due to the brass case most of the time, remove that case from testing.
10 shot groups or more are fine but you just use more brass that might not be right.
BR shooters sort brass and use the same 5 over and over for record. They load the same cases at the bench, over and over for each relay. A pound or so different in case tension will be a flier.
Even the dies you use will make or break groups. Too many just make a "bang".

[SteveS]

I shoot a couple of revolvers so six and twelve shot groups is what I go by. Ten groups tells me pretty much all I want to know.

[Hannibal]

The responses received thus far essentially confirm what I already suspected. Other sites I have visited are full of reports of sub-MOA groups from pretty much every make and model of firearm made. Those same reports are few and far between here. I myself have not found that to be the case. I began to wonder if I just had the worst luck ever when purchasing a firearm? But upon closer reading i was able to deduce a common theme. It is apparent that few or perhaps none here are picking the best group ever fired and declaring that to be the firearm's group size, either. The other sites? Well, not so much. :wink:
Thanks to all.

[Outpost75]

http://ballistipedia.com/images/3/33/Statistical_Measures_for_Riflemen_and_Missile_Engi neers_-_Grubbs_1964.pdf

[TXGunNut]

For group testing I'll fire five shots and if a load shows promise I'll load ten more and fire two more five shot groups. I generally re-test another ten rounds on another day before I settle on a hunting load. I ignore called fliers but look for a pattern on others. Sometimes it's an undetected boolit or case defect but sometimes it's something else. I don't shoot large numbers of MOA groups but that's probably because I'm not an MOA shooter.

[Larry Gibson]

Expanman

When you shoot a group to determine the firearm's group size, how many shots do you use? 3? 5? 10?

A 3 shot group, especially if small, tells you nothing about accuracy potential of the load. If large the 3 shot group tells you things aren't going to get better. A 5 shot group can give you an idea of potential but still can many times be misleading. The reason is statistical random dispersion of shots in the group (cone of fire actually). Statistically it takes a minimal 7 - 8 shots for some surety. A 10 shot test string is the SAAMI standard for testing accuracy, velocity and pressure. Thus I use most often, unless just testing for potential velocity and pressure range, a 10 shot test string with both rifles and handguns of any action type. With 6 shot+ revolvers I many times use "twice around the cylinder" using all the different chambers for 12+ shot test strings.

How many errant shots do you discount as ' fliers ' ?

I do not "discount" flyers. I will discount 2 "called shots" out of the group though which still leaves 8 good shots for surety. Do you know the difference between a "flyer" and a "called shot" out of the group?

And how many groups do you measure and average to determine the firearm's average group size?

I use 3 ten shot groups to confirm accuracy potential of the load in a particular firearm. They may be fired the same day or days apart. "Average group size" is a meaningless term even though we all use it. It means 50% of the groups will be larger and 50% will be smaller. Seldom will any group be the "average". I prefer to use and "ES" (extreme spread) of say "1 to 1.5 moa capable accuracy".

Fired over how many days?

As mentioned for accuracy testing shooting the groups on the same day or other days, if you are a consistent shooter yourself, doesn't matter. However, if determining the "zero" accuracy capability of the rifle I prefer to shoot 1 shot on various days at different times of the day under different conditions. Usually at the "zero" range of the firearm. All shots are on the same target so at the end of 10 shots on 10 different days under different conditions I know how accurate I am with that load and rifle for hunting.

Larry Gibson

[shooter93]

5 at a minimum but generally 8 to 10 once I think it's the load. As Larry said you have to know how to call shots to start eliminating them. Then I like to know a 10 shot group from cold clean to warmish barrel and sometimes if I expect to shoot the gun a lot I'll shoot till accuracy starts to fade beyond my parameters just to know. I shoot the load I've chosen then in all 4 seasons here and generally speaking that gun never sees a bench again unless I suspect a scope problem if it's scoped. I do the majority of my shooting now a days on my hind feet after I find the load for a gun.

[rhead]

I will have at least one group in varied weather conditions made up with the first shot from a cold barrel then two or three more groups fired the same day from a warmed barrel. When you are hunting the target seldom gives you a chance for a barrel warmer shot.

[edctexas]

There is a difference between most of the gentlemen here and those on some other boards. The vast majority here actually have shot their groups. In some other places, the keyboard did the shooting!

I use tool called On Target. You can record your groups from pictures. Groups can be compared or superimposed over other groups shot at different times or temperatures. This allows you to shoot 3 and take a break and shoot at some other time and compare. It also has neat useful note taking capability.

A "Flyer" is a shot which breaks the neat group. You did everything right but the boolit when somewhere else. A "Called shot" is when you know before or at the bang you did something wrong. Many of us here on this site may lump these shots into our totals. Not all of us are quite good enough to be sure that we goofed up the shot. An example might be: You are at the range squeezing a shot when the chap next to you fires his super whizbanger with a muzzle brake. This might cause you to "call" your shot "off", because you only had one layer of ear protection. The BIG bang caused you to jerk. Plenty of other reasons to blow a shot but that might cause one's shot to go outside of the nice group. The really better shooters can tell that they did something off just as the gun bangs. I'm not quite that good anymore.

Ed C

[reloader28]

I fill the handguns.
Rifles I will run 3-4 until I'm getting I'm satisfied, then I'll run three or four 5-6 shot stings thru them.

If I know I pulled a shot, I discount it.
Playing around with reformed 308 brass and some cast boolits in my 243, I started sorting out the fliers. Then after using only the brass that I'd kept as good, there were no more fliers. All were tight groups.

I've since turned the necks on all these brass and that pretty well fixed the problem.

[44man]

I ran into it all the time at IHMSA when the fellow next to me was shooting 335. Had to wait for him to fire first. Talk about gut rumbling blast!
Brass is your biggest enemy and just shooting a bunch will not prove much except you see groups enlarge and not from the gun's or your fault.

[Doc Highwall]

When first working up a load (mostly rifle) I have at least a 100 cases that are within a accepted weight variation depending if it is a hunting rifle or a target rifle. I then load 50 rounds starting 10% below the maximum powder charge with 5 rounds while working up in 1% increments of a greater powder charge for 5 rounds each till I have all 50 rounds loaded. This will give me 10 loads of 5 shots each that will be shot at 100 yards. After going over the group sizes and chronograph data I determine what is close to the best load and will now load at least 20 rounds of each and now test at 200 yards. The testing at 200 yards will be 4 groups of 5 shots each, because shooting 5 shots and taking a short break between will allow the level of concentration to be maintained. Now the best load will be tested at 300 yards again with 4 groups of 5 shots each playing with seating depth. When this is done I start shooting 10 shot groups and then 20 shot groups.

[MT Chambers]

Do what most people do on these sites, measure ctr. to ctr. of the 2 furthest apart shots then subtract 2", that's the group size.......oh and mention that the guns shoots those groups "all day long".

[Hannibal]

Do what most people do on these sites, measure ctr. to ctr. of the 2 furthest apart shots then subtract 2", that's the group size.......oh and mention that the guns shoots those groups "all day long".

On some sites, yes, EXACTLY. :wink: But don't forget the 'If I do my part' line.

[fredj338]

Handguns, 5rd groups, small bore rifles (30cal & under) 5rds, medium & large bore (33cal & over) 3rds is enough. Two groups makes an avg, but the more the better. Splitting the shooting up over more days can be a better test method, but does rely on you having yopur best days on the trigger every day. I don't count fliers in the group, but note it in my data, like 2" group, 4 in 1". Then often will reshoot that combo to see if it was me or the gun/load.

[Hannibal]

My rifle will shoot sub-MOA all day long...for real...if'n I do my part...3 shot groups.

Never ment to imply no one could. Just find it difficult to believe every novice shooter with a computer and a new rifle can. First trip to the range. With the first box of ammo they happen to grab. Hmmm . . . .?
Or maybe I just have the worst luck ever buying firearms and ammo . . . ?

[MT Chambers]

I use paid (or bribed) witnesses, for all my .5" groups, all day long!

[shooter93]

Well LL....I'll go you one better....my guns shoot 1/4 moa all day long and I always do my part......smiles.

[fredj338]

Never ment to imply no one could. Just find it difficult to believe every novice shooter with a computer and a new rifle can. First trip to the range. With the first box of ammo they happen to grab. Hmmm . . . .?
Or maybe I just have the worst luck ever buying firearms and ammo . . . ?
Back when, I let my 16yr old son shoot my precision rifle for the first time behind a scoped centerfire. He printed a nice 3/4" group for 5 @ 100yds. yes I was impressed. FWIW, that rifle will shoot 1/2moa all day, several diff loads, with a good shooter & good conditions.

[fouronesix]

I like the banter about "if I do my part"!!! Or how about, getting all wrapped around the axle with so-so groups on a paper target but nonchalant like, "good enough for hunting" or "minute of deer".

Seriously as to the OP. I think about groups as a three part dependent triangle: Shooter, Load, Gun.

I have guns that simply will not, never did and never will shoot 1 MOA. But most of those are well over 100 years old with some over 160 years old. I have guns that were purpose built and if they don't shoot 1/4-1/2 MOA something is wrong. Everything has to be kept in context.

For assessing accuracy of a load/gun and I shoot three 5-shot groups on different days under decent conditions and that includes my condition, then I feel pretty comfortable the mean of those groups is about the base line accuracy of that particular load/gun. Some will say no way and may even call you out about it! Then proceed to rattle off a bunch of minimums of statistical confidence levels. Whatever. But, you can look at it conversely. What are the chances that three 5-shot groups will measure such and such by some sheer fluke of coincidence??

[Hannibal]

I like the banter about "if I do my part"!!! Or how about, getting all wrapped around the axle with so-so groups on a paper target but nonchalant like, "good enough for hunting" or "minute of deer".

Seriously as to the OP. I think about groups as a three part dependent triangle: Shooter, Load, Gun.

I have guns that simply will not, never did and never will shoot 1 MOA. But most of those are well over 100 years old with some over 160 years old. I have guns that were purpose built and if they don't shoot 1/4-1/2 MOA something is wrong. Everything has to be kept in context.

For assessing accuracy of a load/gun and I shoot three 5-shot groups on different days under decent conditions and that includes my condition, then I feel pretty comfortable the mean of those groups is about the base line accuracy of that particular load/gun. Some will say no way and may even call you out about it! Then proceed to rattle off a bunch of minimums of statistical confidence levels. Whatever. But, you can look at it conversely. What are the chances that three 5-shot groups will measure such and such by some sheer fluke of coincidence??

My method is quite similar, only I insist on 10 shot groups. Most everyone who knows I do this say I'm crazy.
Perhaps. But if I say a rifle will
hold such-and-such group size, I have yet to be embarrassed.

Heck, even a broken clock is right twice a day. :wink:

[MBTcustom]

You are starting to smell the stench of big fish stories vs. reality.
If accuracy is measured by the best three shot group one can produce in ten tries, then nearly all factory rifles are sub MOA. Had a guy in the shop that actually carried a 1" three shot group in his wallet and had it laminated. I asked him where the other 7 shots went? LOL!

If you measure group size by ten shots, then you've got about a 90% idea of the accuracy potential of that rifle. If you fly 25 into the same group, I'd put it at 99% certainty what your particular bullet hose is spraying.
I really do think of it like the nozzle on a water hose. Each combination is going to produce a certian effective cone of spray. I'm sure all of you have played with those cheap water nozzles for the garden hose and tried to make it spray as tight a stream as possible? Remember how some times going all the way down and then backing up would make the stream the tightest? Or maybe you twist the nozzle handle with your palm just so? It only ever took about 5 minutes to find that sweet spot where you could get the angle just right to soak your unsuspecting brother or sister down and then drop it an run like hell.
Well that five minute education you just got was the equivalent of 500,000 rounds of ammunition if you could control the loads with a nozzle! (personal fantasy, God I wish I could manipulate powder burn rate's that easily!)
So if you expect to achieve the same effect in less than 100 rounds, you had better be paying attention to your load science.
That said, I gave up on factory gun barrels a while ago (with very few exceptions, none of which are produced in america). You start grabbing random rifles off the shelf and doing load workups for them, you quickly learn how rare it is to get one that will hold up to three ten shot groups. Most factory rifles are held to the same accuracy standard mil-spec rifles have been held to for the last 300 years: 4MOA. Anything better is gravy.

Now, you buy one of those "overpriced barrels" from Krieger, Brux, Bartlien, Broughton etc etc etc, (claims the guy who has spent how much on reloading components, gas and range fees trying to fool himself into believing he has an accurate rifle?) and you have it screwed into the same action, suddenly your potential group for three tens goes down to around a true 1 MOA potential.
Some out there are saying ohhhhhh. So you're talking about consistent potential. Man. That sucks.
To which I would reply: It doesn't suck per se. It's realitity. It's either able to be reproduced on demand or it isn't.
Oh and a word on fliers: Quit calling yourself a lousy shot and ignoring those fliers!!!! If I put any one of you behind a true target rifle, you would be able to shoot ten times better than what you do with your cheap wal-mart special. No fliers. There is no such thing. The rifle shoots where you aim it. Period. If you aimed at the bull and your bullet hits 2" to the left, that was the gun trying to tell you something!!!
I am speaking from experience here. I used to play all these silly games with myself. Started building custom rifles and found out, I'm not such a lousy shot after all. Turns out, I use to think I was good for 1MOA and anything else was the rifles fault (that is so embarrassing to admit now, but it's the truth, and I suspect many here are doing the same thing)
Turns out, on a good day, I'm good for 1/4MOA because I can shoot 1/2" groups with a rifle that is good for 1/4" groups. Nice!

By far, the worst personal detriment to accuracy that I have found is lack of sleep. Shooting takes concentration of enormous proportions and if I'm unrested (pretty much the daily battle around here) I have a really hard time.
For instance, I went to the range tired and just couldn't shoot better than 4MOA with a rifle that I built and I knew was good to 1/2MOA. That sucks!
But even when I was tired, that gun shot where I aimed it when the trigger broke. The last thing I saw in the scope was the crosshairs drifting off the bull and surprise surprise, the shot punched the target right there.[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

This is the point: Yeah, the group on paper is a representation of the shooter, the loads, and the rifle, but a good rifle with decent loads and even a novice shooter who's not going to sleep behind the rifle, is able to drill 1" groups all day long.
If you can't ever get there after changing the loads, then it aint you. Either you're a total goofball all the time, or you have a janky factory barrel on that gun like everybody else does. Yeah, there is probably a load out there that will get you better results, but if you ever screw a decent pipe on that gun, you'll find that it wants to shoot darn near anything under a 1" group at 100 yards, and your best loads will be one holers. If anybody says different, I want to see the 10 shot group. Show me three subMOA tens overlapping and I'll buy you lunch (just let me get my notepad LOL!) but this three shot 1MOA group kept in a wallet isnt worth the paper it was printed on.

[Hannibal]

I had been wondering how many shooters have been chasing the 'cast boolit load unicorn' with a firearm that simply was not consistent enough to give consistent results. :goodpost:

[tygar]

This is a very open ended question & can have many different answers.

e.g What gun & for what use? Is it my M99 30-30, then once it's on paper ladder with 3 shots then take the best & do 5 shots at 100. THen take the best & shoot at 150.

If it's my Spencer 1000yd heavy gun with Batt action, probably know where to start & shoot a 5 rd group at 100 to get zero, then 5 at 200, 300, 400 to ensure computer & rifle are the same. Then 10 rounds at 500-1000. Then various days at various distance. Then there are Fclass, sniper, hunting, etc.

Before all this, there is the matching brass wt to .3-.5 gr depending on size, bullets exactly the same, primer, power exact etc.

Lots of variables.

Combat guns, hunting, plinking, target, each has it's own rules.

If its a 40 or 75 # heavy gun no excuses, light gun the same, but a called shot out may be discounted but not usually. A sneeze is always an excuse. lol

So what I do depends, depends on the rifle, it's use & whether I'm working up a new load or just confirming zero & group.

If it's cast bullet rifle I'm still learning & would count 3 shots in an inch a good group, but I am doing the 3 shot/5 shot ladder but starting at 50yd-150.

Pistol, cast & jacket, rev all 6, 5 times at 25 & 50, autos the same except only do 5. Hunting or long range the same out to whatever distance is max.

[dtknowles]

For bragging 3 or 4, 5 shot groups at the appropriate range for the firearm. Handguns, 25 or 50 yards. Long guns 50, 100, 200 or more.

But what is the point except for bragging. 10 shot groups tell you more but of course are bigger so not as good for bragging. 4, 5 shot groups is 3 ten shot groups if you over lay them, the first with the second, the second with the third and the third with the fourth.

Depending on the purpose of the gun, the shape or pattern of the groups can be important. Plinking, big game, varmints, targets, groups.

When I am testing most often I am not testing the firearm, I am testing ammo. I quickly find out whether the gun is suitable for its task and after that I am testing ammo to decide what I will load for that gun.

When I am bragging about my shooting I prefer to brag about my ability to shoot not about the gun. If you are bragging about a cheap gun that shoots good then you are bragging about being lucky. If you are bragging about an expensive gun that shoots good you are bragging about all the money you spent (if you built it yourself, that's a different story). If you are bragging about standing at the firing line and putting 10 in a row into the 10 ring at 100 yards you might be bragging about your ability.

If you want to brag about groups, your better have more than 1 and they better have at least 5 shots.

Tim

[Hannibal]

Well, now. THAT'S certainly something you don't see everyday. :shock:

[dtknowles]

It is when Tim Malcolm works his magic on a rifle.

Back to your OP and determining group size. That is easy, outside to outside and subtract bullet diameter.

Now figuring a rifle's average group size is going to require you to shoot several 10 shot groups with the same load and then take the average.

What is acceptable depends on the rifle. For a woods bumming truck gun like the M4 and others, I am happy with 3 MOA or under as 3 MOA equals hits on man size targets to 600 yard.

For a match rifle it needs to stick 1 shots sub MOA every time if'n I do my part (seriously). You can get fatigued behind a rifle so when doing load development it may take me a couple days to shoot my test ladder of 10 shot groups of powder charges.

Averaging several 10 shot groups will get you an average 10 shot group size which is larger than a rifle/loads average 5 shot groups size. This will not be the rifle's average groups size it will be the rifle/loads average groups size. It is not all about the rifle, the ammo gets some credit. If it was all about the rifle it would be an average of groups shot with a variety of ammo.

I don't see how "3 MOA equals hits on man size targets to 600 yard" for a "For a woods bumming truck gun like the M4" out to 600 yards in field conditions even with a range finder and a rolled up coat on the hood of a pickup truck that mansized target better be presenting a full face on target and even then that 18 inches of dispersion is going to mean some misses and many no lethal shots. That is not even counting for misread on the wind. Even two MOA will not guarantee a lethal shot on a man at 600 yards in field conditions.


I thought that the ladder test was an alternative to shooting groups to find the best powder charge. To quote your from a previous thread "I use it all the time. It gets me out to 1,000 yds with very minimal work and eats up significantly less components.

You do not shoot a group of rds at each powder charge. You shoot ONE rd at each powder charge.
Ladder testing at 100 yds is pointless for a centerfire (using jacketed).

The Snipers Hide ladder test is the best example floating around the net. There are some very serious shooters on that forum."

Tim

[Love Life]

Averaging several 10 shot groups will get you an average 10 shot group size which is larger than a rifle/loads average 5 shot groups size. This will not be the rifle's average groups size it will be the rifle/loads average groups size. It is not all about the rifle, the ammo gets some credit. If it was all about the rifle it would be an average of groups shot with a variety of ammo.

I don't see how "3 MOA equals hits on man size targets to 600 yard" for a "For a woods bumming truck gun like the M4" out to 600 yards in field conditions even with a range finder and a rolled up coat on the hood of a pickup truck that mansized target better be presenting a full face on target and even then that 18 inches of dispersion is going to mean some misses and many no lethal shots. That is not even counting for misread on the wind. Even two MOA will not guarantee a lethal shot on a man at 600 yards in field conditions.


I thought that the ladder test was an alternative to shooting groups to find the best powder charge. To quote your from a previous thread "I use it all the time. It gets me out to 1,000 yds with very minimal work and eats up significantly less components.

You do not shoot a group of rds at each powder charge. You shoot ONE rd at each powder charge.
Ladder testing at 100 yds is pointless for a centerfire (using jacketed).

The Snipers Hide ladder test is the best example floating around the net. There are some very serious shooters on that forum."

Tim

Do you even shoot, Bro?


All info deleted.

[dtknowles]

Do you even shoot, Bro?


All info deleted.


I was tops on my high school shooting team my senior year (38 years ago). I shot some NRA Hunters Pistol matches for a few years. I shoot at least every other weekend. I have posted targets here for some of my range time. I will be shooting my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle tomorrow. I cast too, pic's of some of my bullets have been posted here as well.

Tim

[btroj]

In the end all shooting is judged one shot at a time. It either goes where it is supposed to or it doesn't.

I tend to use 5 shot groups because they work for me. I don't care what others use or why, I don't shoot to prove anything to them or make them happy.

Do what makes you happy and never look back.

[Love Life]

In the end all shooting is judged one shot at a time. It either goes where it is supposed to or it doesn't.

I tend to use 5 shot groups because they work for me. I don't care what others use or why, I don't shoot to prove anything to them or make them happy.

Do what makes you happy and never look back.

I much mo' betta' understand yours and Gear's absence more and more as the days go on.

[btroj]

Why? The reason is still here and still spewing