The quiet .30-30

[Digital Dan]

Would like to pose a question, specific to the .30-30. Lyman 311041, 24" barrel looking for 750 fps with ragged hole accuracy at 25 yards. The gun is capable of that with faster loads, same bullet. What would your preferred powder be and how much. My choices are Bullseye and 700X or 800X. Dacron filler?

I read an older thread wherein Larry G suggested something in the range of 5.5 BE with equivalent bullet weight if not the same bullet for something in the range of 1100 fps. Looking to go slower.

Thanks

[Outpost75]

I have gone as light as 4 grains BE and it exits the barrel, but accuracy in a 12" twist was only fair. A 10" twist may do better, or a lighter bullet.

[firefly1957]

Do you have a chronograph or it it the velocity you are looking for from us?
I loaded some Lee 309170 bullets that cast at 178 grain with soft range lead over 4.3 grains Red Dot and they were doing 800 f/s but accuracy was not good same powder load (both with a dab of fillet to keep powder against primer) under a .309 sized 90 gr cast .32 caliber bullet does 1040 f/s and is very accurate.

[Digital Dan]

Thanks, I do have a chronograph and after your comment realized I have red dot as well. I do not have a lighter weight mould. Shooting a 10" twist. I know the gun will run marginal sub sonic velocity well, I'm looking for any experience that has worked in the 750 fps range. Have some dacron but have never tried to use it in the past.

[Motor]

I use 6 grains BE with the Lee 160 in 7.62x54R. Accuracy at 50 yards was less than 2" I just loaded some in brass prepped with a Lyman "M" die in 31cal. I hope to range test them this weekend. I'm hoping the "M" die helps.

This load is 1075 f/s and I don't believe I've ever heard a sonic crack from one (I know 1075 should be sub-sonic) and we have shot hundreds. I don't use any fillers.

Hope this helps some how.

BTW: I shoot the same 160gr Lee sized to .311" from a old Marlin using 10gr Trail Boss. This is not a sub-sonic load but is very accurate. The RCBS .308" neck expander must be a "good fit" for this app.

Motor

[Artful]

try this link
https://www.google.com/#q=30-30%20cat%20sneeze%20loads

[Larry Gibson]

Cast the 311041 of soft alloy (COWWs +2% tin/lead at 30/70 or 40-1 or 30-1 alloy). TL in LLA with a light coat, let dry thoroughly. Leave as cast and seat a GC on them with a .311 Lee push through or use the older Lyman slip on or home made slip on GCs.

Load over Bullseye with no wad or filler of anything. Start at 5 gr and work down in .3 gr increments until the 750 fps goal is reached. Should be accurate to 50 yards at least. Have a good rod to push bullets out if you go to low. The softer alloy will prevent that but makes it easy to push the bullet out if one gets stuck. I've gone as low as 2.5 gr with the same bullet with raged hole accuracy at 50 ft (indoor range).

Larry Gibson

[Digital Dan]

Thanks Larry, much appreciated. Will let you know how this progresses.

D

[Digital Dan]

Artful, thanks to you as well.

[Blackwater]

For bare minimum loads, you might want to consider shooting round balls. Lube them with LA and crimp very slightly to keep them in position, and experiment with charges until you get what you want with regard to accuracy and velocity. I haven't done it, but a pal who trained his sons with this load in an old Win. M-94 said they shot tons of this load and had barrels full of fun with it. Said it'd kill a lot better than a .22 at higher velocity too, on possums, squirrels, etc. Just a thought, FWIW. The problem you're up against is that the lighter you load, the more likely it is you'll get a bullet stuck in your barrel at some point. Knowledge comes at a price, always, and this is just the price for that kind of knowledge. The round ball has minimal barrel contact, so resistance is reduced, minimizing the risk of a stuck ball in the barrel at minimal loadings. It's still enough, with proper size, of course, to get spun sufficiently for a RB, which really doesn't have to be spun all that fast to be stabilized anyway. Report should be very light, if that's what you're looking for. Lee makes a .311 RB mould, too, which should be about ideal, or you can purchase #0 buckshot. I think tha's the one that's .31 caliber, isn't it???

[Digital Dan]

Blackwater, yes, #1 buck is .310-.311 depending on where you find it in my experience. I have some roundball experience in CF rifles and what you suggest is consistent with my experience. The load I'm looking to develop is not so much for fun as for unobtrusively poking pigs in the brain bucket. Circumstances are contrived by rules I did not make, and I've been using .22 CB shorts for this for a long time at the behest of the State of Florida in a hog eradication program. I'm bored, have other options and wanted to blaze a new trail in a manner of speaking. Accuracy at short range is paramount, no surprises permitted.

[Blackwater]

Ah, yes! I see! A buddy up in the moountains of N. GA. hosts some F&G folks that crop deer where he lives every year or two, and they use suppressed .22/.250's and similar, but those ine power in all gov't's don't know much about things like that, so they just make the rules according to their FEELINGS, and NOT with any knowledge. Most begrudge anyone killing poor Bambi or Porky, and don't know or care that pigs CAN, at least on occasion, take offense to being shot at. You're a good man to be able to put up with dumb rules and still git-r-done. Good luck with your project & plans.

[35remington]

DD, I'd also consider some of the 32 pistol and 32/20 rifle bullets of around 115 grains weight if accuracy is not all it could be at 750 fps speeds using the heavier rifle bullets.

It just so happens that I am using 32 pistol bullets in a 308 with around 3.5 grain charges of Bullseye and similar powders and getting excellent sub one inch groups at fifty yards with them. Velocity is in the 1000 fps range, right where I want it, with 85 to 102 grain bullets. You of course will cut that charge a bit to get the speed you want with a 115 grain bullet.

The trouble I have with roundball loads is accuracy falls off radically at any ranges that get to be a bit longer and that penetration is considerably inferior to a heavier true bullet. I understand hogs may have tough(ish) skulls. Roundballs also bleed energy really fast.

[JWFilips]

I shoot a Ranch Dog 75 grain (314") boolit in my 30-30 336 Marlin with 2.5 to 3.0 grain Bullseye Very accurate to 50 yards. About the report of a 22 LR but lower in tone.
I bring the .314 boolit down by using Larry Gibson's method for the Lee 90 swc ( A tumbled lubed coat of LLA as they come out of the mould & when dry Push through base first in a .311 or as I do a custom honed .312" Lee sizer die ...my gun likes 'em fat) This preserves the flat Plain Base & the lla prevents the lube grooves from disappearing (because they are tumble lube style boolits) Once out of the sizer they get tumbled again in LLA or Recluse's formula. For me they shoot way better then the Lee 90 gr SWC

I have also shot the N.O.E. RD version 165 Gr (with No Gas Check in place) with 6.0 Bullsye Not to shabby of groups at 50 yds maybe averaging about 2" Lubed in Recluse's 45/45/10

[John Van Gelder]

The .30-30 is a good choice for shooting cast. The 311041 is a good bullet choice. I shot many hundreds of the 311291 through my Win., 94, my light load was 7 gr of Unique. Very accurate, pretty quiet, but quite a bit over 750 fps.

Hodgdon Trail Boss is a good choice, it is a bulky powder, their minimum load for a 160 gr. bullet is 6.5 gr. at around 900 fps. There are some cautions about "squib" loads in relatively large capacity rufle cases.

Large capacity/small charges, inconsistant ignition and poor accuracy.

[Quiettime]

Just shot some NOE 247 HP that I ESPC'd in Marlin 336 micro groove. COL 2.55" over 9gr of Trail Boss. Very quiet sub load, comfortable to shoot with ear plugs out. HP expanded great even shooting into sand at 25 yds. Trail Boss works great!

[John Van Gelder]

Quiettime

Hodgdon lists the 9 gr. load at around 1100 fps., in the .30-30. With carefull shot placement that load would work for deer at short ranges. I have some favorite loads for the .45 Colt and Trail Boss, in my 94 Winchester.

The real advantage to that powder is that is is very bulky so it fills the case better with light loads and gives better ignition consistancy whcih translates into better accuracy.

Any idea of the velocity you are getting in your gun..?

[prs]

Too bad the OP does not have TrailBoss to include in his work-up as it seems to shoot with low acoustic report and still get the velocity he needs.

prs

[Quiettime]

Any idea of the velocity you are getting in your gun..?

All I know at this point is that it is subsonic. Report similar to .22lr out of a long barrel.

I will probably back down to 8.9 only because some of the loaded rounds I could hear the powder shake ever so faintly and some I could not hear. I do have some R-P cases and some Win cases and that seemed to make the difference.

All 30 rounds were very quiet.

IMHO it is worth finding some TB for any reduced or quiet loads. It works

[John Van Gelder]

Quiettime

.30-30 brass is prone to streatching, when fired in lever guns. With high intensity loads the average life span is around 5 reloads and then the cases seperate just above the web. The low pressure loading should increase the number of "goes" you get from each case. . Any time you are going for consistancy, it is a good idea to sort your cases by brand. Check case length, again .30-30 brass streaches, and if you are pushing the case up into the rifling that will produce erratic results.

Many years ago Speer marketed a .30 cal., 100gr. half jacketed bullet. I loaded those for a friend of mine who was a little recoil sensative. Real "cat sneeze" loads, I used 7 gr. of Unique, those were deadly on Eastern woodchucks, and pretty quiet.

I am sure you are aware of the caveat, that with the Marlin you are urged to keep velocities down with cast bullets.

[35remington]

Given that my 35 Remington loads that noticeably exceed the SAAMI spec will get 12 to 13 reloads before a head separation is imminent and I really don't like shooting loads that heavy......I'd really have to question whether any load that gets only five reloadings before a head separation is prudent.

The 35 case has a larger interior head area than the 30-30 does, and if 30-30 cases are separating after only five loadings, and discounting a too long headspace measurement.......those loads are way too hot. Time to not shoot those any more.

[Hickory]

I knew a guy who tried to get his 30-30 to shoot as fast as a 308.
Turns out he lost an eye and half his face. He should have got a 308.

[Yodogsandman]

My quietest load so far with the 311041 clone, the lee 309-170F is 2.7gr Bullseye. Most accurate was 8.0gr Unique. 8.0gr Unique was great in the Lyman 311291 and RCBS 30-180SP, too.

I've switched down to a lee 309-113F, 2.7gr Bullseye...too much fun! Like a .22 short. Very quiet!

[Digital Dan]

Too bad the OP does not have TrailBoss to include in his work-up as it seems to shoot with low acoustic report and still get the velocity he needs.

prs

actually I did have some TB until recently. Everytime I loaded with it I felt like, well, like I was pouring LEO nourishment into the case. I mean, doughnuts for gunpowder?

It it isn't bad powder but in the 4 cartridges I tried it in, different powders did better.

Will be loading some up tomorrow.

[MBTcustom]

I have gone as light as 4 grains BE and it exits the barrel, but accuracy in a 12" twist was only fair. A 10" twist may do better, or a lighter bullet.

Exqueeze me, but 12 twist is the Winchester. Marlin is 1-10 for older MG guns, and 1-10.5 for the later ones. Just pointing that out.

[John Van Gelder]

The loads I was using back in 1968 where right from the Lyman manual and below the maximum load listed. At that time. The gun was a brand new Mod 94 Winchester, one of a serise of octagon barrel guns they produced then. My bullet was the 311291 GC over 30 gr. of IMR3031 (the current manual lists 28.5, the old manual listed 31 as the max.) It is a given that the 94 Winchester in .30-30 is hard on cases, full length sizing also contributes to shortening case life, in the 94. As I recall it was a batch of Remington brass that I had the problems with. Comparing the .35 Remington with the .30-30 is apples and oranges, the .35 is a lower pressure round, and to the best of my knowledge the 94 was never chambered in that caliber. The Marlin 336 rifles have a different lock work and tend to be easier on cases.

I have been reloading for almost 60 years now and have never blown up a gun, I follow the manual listings, work up slowly to upper end loads and see no reason to push the limits. If you need more power then go to a more powerful cartridge. But I have seperated .30-30 cases in the 94 Winchester after just a few reloads and with relatively low pressure loads.

[John Van Gelder]

I would be a little careful about using very light loads of the fast burning powders like Bulls Eye. There are reports of light load detonation, there is some contraversy about this topic. Here is a link to an interesting article: http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

Another article, as you can see no one is really sure what happens, only that it can happen: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

[35remington]

Nobody has ever reported a problem using such loads with Bullseye in rifles. It seems to be a double charge pistol phenomenon. The warning against the use of Bullseye for this purpose is unnecessary.

You missed the part where I said I loaded the 35 beyond spec and still got better case life than five firings, which is unacceptable.

Due to larger base area and a lockup no stronger than a 94 comparison of 35 to 30-30 actually was more than fair and not at all apples to oranges. Point was that loads separating after five firings are way too hot. FL sizing if done correctly s no limitation to case life in lever guns. The load is the culprit if the case fits the chamber as it should.

[John Van Gelder]

35remington

You obviously did not read the attached articles. And again comparing the .35 Remington used in some other firearm than the .30-30/ 94 winchester is not a valid comparison.

And if you are over loading your gun your are violating the basic tenants of re-loading. Probably not a good thing to suggest to many of the posters here who do not have a half century+ of reloading experience.

Depemding on case construction and there are a lot of variances in case manufacture, it is quite possible to suffer seperation with just a few reloads at reasonable pressures.

The possability of detonation with "squib" loads is well documented. I personally do not have an opinion one way or the other, but over time feel it is best to err on the side of caution.

Again since you have not read the articles, I will concede that there is a reference in those articles to a controlled experiment conducted by the folks at Allient where they tried to reproduce a detonation using Bulls Eye and were unable to do so.

My warning here is that the reloading manuals, which are produced under controlled conditions, have upper and lower limits for good reason. Go beyond those in either direction at your own peril. "Abandon all hope yea who enter here!" .. Dante's Inferno.

[MT Chambers]

If it were me, I'd just get a good PCP air rifle in .25 or .30 cal.

[35remington]

Please show me where "detonations" occurred using Bullseye powder in rifles using light charges. Your links did far more to refute the idea than support it.

Since my own 94's in 30-30 and 7-30 do not suffer such terribly short case life with reasonable non wimpy loads, I can only wonder at what you are doing. Something is occurring you haven't mentioned yet. Factory 30-30s just back out primers in rifles with excessive headspace because not enough pressure occurs to occasion head stretch. I can only conclude your problem is headspace and pressure, or just pressure alone.

Getting five reloads out of a 30-30 case before they separate is an uncommon event when loaded prudently. With the price and availability of cases these days that's as it should be. Have to disagree the comparison of calibers was not relevant as it was in context with my own 336's and 94's in the two cartridges. Loaded prudently the 94 should not experience extra short case life as a matter of course.

[Digital Dan]

No, I think there are no more air rifles in my future. The first still functions after 50+ years. And I have enough guns to amuse me presently.

John Van G., the issue of low charge blow ups is certainly a topic of heated debate, I'll grant that. The human condition being what it is, I'm more inclined to believe the labs that cannot replicate the occurrence rather than speculation. There are things to do and not do whilst pursuing the endeavor certainly, but light loads in modest cases is not a hazard if common sense is applied and double charges are avoided. I have been doing it for decades in a wide variety of cases with many different bullets, and will continue to do so. My inquiry went to the specific point that I have not done this to such a degree with the .30-30 and was looking for some guidance on loads for a specific bullet. That question has been adequately answered I think and by people that have traveled the same path.

I do think there are some oddities in the world of intermediate burn rate powders and more than a few slow powders. Blue Dot comes to mind, as does Trail Boss. The former apparently has some idiosyncrasies related to load density that present as counter intuitive pressure curves. IMR suggests clearly that compressing Trail Boss is not a good idea and other powders such as H110/WW296 are not to be used for reduced loads. It goes on....and on....and on. What I have seen with Bullseye is that it is predictable, and unlikely to suffer erratic behavior due to variations of load density.


And lastly, I did read the articles.

[prs]

actually I did have some TB until recently. Everytime I loaded with it I felt like, well, like I was pouring LEO nourishment into the case. I mean, doughnuts for gunpowder?

It it isn't bad powder but in the 4 cartridges I tried it in, different powders did better.

Will be loading some up tomorrow.

Understood. The TB load with such light boolit may not meet your standard for "minute of pig".

prs

[ThatFishGuy]

I load the lee 309-115gr bullet in my 30-30 with really good results. I'll have to double check my data but Im using just above 7gr Unique. I tried TB but the unique was better for my rifle. The report seems slightly louder than a 22lr, but more boom than a crack. I've shot it out to about 100yds. No measured groups but it kills cans like a champ. I also used it to take a bobcat last year.

[BCB]

I really never much got involved with the “quiet” loads for anything, but as I read this thread, I thought, why not?...

So I got some of my Lee C309-150F and sized and checked them to 0.309” and lubed with a very thin coat of Alex…

Not wanting to stick a boolit in the barrel, I started with 5.0 grains of Bullseye as this seems to be a powder of choice for much reduced loads in many cartridges. I worked my way down to 3.2 grains and stopped at that, although I maybe could go lower—but I really didn’t want to pound a slug out of the barrel…

I started by shooting at only 50 feet as I was shooting over a chrony at that time. I am shooting them in a T/C Contender Super 14”…

Results:

3.2 grains…712 fps
3.5 grains…750 fps
4.0 grains…841 fps
4.5 grains…889 fps
5.0 grains…990 fps

The best accuracy was with the 3.2 and 4.5 grains loads. The 4.5 grain-load shot nearly a one-holer at 25 yards and right at the 1” at 50 yards…
(The 5.0 grain-load shot at the 1" mark also, but accuracy was not as good as the 4.5 grain-load at 25 yards)

The velocities are interesting if you look at the number of fps increases between powder increases…

The red dot on the target is ½” diameter…

Although, I don’t think I would call this a “quiet” load as it is NOT too quiet. Headphones are still helpful as I fired a round without them and it is quite loud…

Good-luck…BCB

[A pause for the COZ]

I had been playing with 32-20 bullets in my 30-30's for a while.
was getting good results with Bullseye and trail boss.
Then I got a rifle in 32-20 sorta made it a moot point so I have not done it in a while.
trail Boss is an amazing powder. Hope I start seeing it again soon.

[BCB]

I had been playing with 32-20 bullets in my 30-30's for a while.
was getting good results with Bullseye and trail boss.
Then I got a rifle in 32-20 sorta made it a moot point so I have not done it in a while.
trail Boss is an amazing powder. Hope I start seeing it again soon.

With 8.0 and 9.0 grains of TB and the Lee C309-150F I was getting 1142 and 1192 respectively from the 30-30 Contender Super 14"...

Accuracy was good with the 8.0-grain load, but not great...

Good-luck...BCB

[Digital Dan]

Little followup on developments in short form:

3.3 grains of Bullseye went across the Chrony at an average of 827 fps, penetrated ~22" of damp sand. ES for 3 shots was 22 fps and there was no deformation of the bullet other than sand abrasion. I would characterize the sound as similar to a .22 WMR in volume though it did not have the sharp tone I associate with that round.

2.7 grains of Bullseye averaged 734 fps, about the same penetration, ES was 18 for three shots. Report would be roughly like that of a .22 LR, somewhere betwixt a SV and HV round from a rifle. No stuck in barrel issues and I will probably drop the charge once more to see what occurs around 2.4 and 2.1 grains.

Will also check accuracy on the former loads as a next step. No indication of bullet instability in the paper I shot thru (not a target) or in the form of abrasion on the bullets from the sand berm. No targets today due to rain.

Bullet was ALOX lubed, dusted with motor mica, gas checked and hardness of ~10.5 BHN.

[highpower]

2.7gr of Bullseye and a Barrys .312 (32cal) Hollow Base wadcutter...I have shoot 1000's of these.....have killed dozens of possums with this load..very quiet