Linotype vs Gas Checks in rifles

[crabo]

How would pure linotype bullets in a pb design fare against the same bullet cast with with WWs and a gas check? Is the pure linotype bullet a good idea for rifles?

Thanks,

Crabo

[BigGun]

Crabo
linotype in rifle will be fine as long as vol. is kept below 1600 fps also depends on the
condition of the barrel.I have pushed linotype to 1550 fps in .44mag. with no leading
problems.
my 2 cents worth.
Ted Kelley

[405]

Hmmm, this alway stirs opinions on both sides. Lino or WW either one will "shoot" fine. Leading will be a little different depending on velocity. But, accuracy is how I judge most loads so that's my focus here. I haven't got the time right now but have a perfect example with a target showing how much different a PB bullet is or can be from a similar GC bullet loaded with similar or same load recipe out of same rifle shot at the same time at the same target. Will post target pic as edit here ASAP.... tomorrow?

The 5 shot group size of the .379 GC bullet out of an early original Win 94 38-55 w/.379 groove dia. at 50 yards measures .6". Two 5 shot groups of similar .379 and .380 PB bullets with both similar and identical recipes measure 3.1" and 2.5" respectively. The GC bullet is somewhat harder than average WW alloy. Both the PB bullets have BHNs above average WW alloy. This is just one test but has happened often enough I consider it a trend in my loads and guns.

The common exceptions I find are with very light, fast powder loads in smaller cartridges, softer bullets as in the 38-40 and 44-40 category OR in, of course, soft paper patched bullets out of big BPCR carts like the 45-70 or 45-110.

Photos as promised:

first pic- target
second pic- the shooter- Win 1894 DOM 1894, 38-55, regular oct rifle with Lyman 38

38-55 load same for all three bullets. Bullets lightly crimped with Lee FCD at crimp groove. All three bullets about same BHN 19-22. 15 shots total. 10 shots with PB bullets. 5 shots with GC bullet. All three bullet types 240-250 grs. Both PB bullet design similar in design to GC bullet. All shot from rest- 50 yds. Load same in all three... 19 gr. Rel 7, loose poly filler, CCI large rifle primer, trimmed Jamison brass.

The lone bullet hole in black 8 ring 11 O'Clock is first shot with PB bullet from cold, perfectly clean lightly oiled barrel. It goes with the other 9 shots strung up around 12 Noon. The cluster of shots at 12:30 8 ring is 5 shots with GC bullet- looks like 4 but it is 5!. All 15 shots show full bullet stabilization even though a couple of coincidental clusters look like keyholes- they are not.

Does this prove anything probably not... but seems to be a trend for me anyway.

[Bass Ackward]

Real lino or depleted lino? What caliber? Smaller diameter bullets don't have the strength at impact of larger diameters. What bullet shape? What range? Starting to get the picture. Do jacketed bullets all perform the same? Naaa.

Too many variables. The only way to know is to test under your conditions using your own judgement criteria. I like wet news print in front of water jugs. Throw in a bone if I have access to one. Because you need to test for minimum and maximum ranges too.

I will tell you this, you don't always get what you expect and it can go either or both ways and both be either good or bad. Testing under your conditions is the only way to be sure.

[Lloyd Smale]

Like Bass said theres to many variables. Just going to a harder alloy doesnt gurantee better accuracy. It may guarntee that accuracy holds up over a longer string of shots but if you change alloys you change to many things. It may be that a bullet cast out of ww plain base will outshoot another bullet gas checked in a particular gun. A general rule of thumb (at least in my experience) is that at high pressures a gas check works better and so does harder lead. I guess for most rifle applications if i could get the accuracy i wanted id rather shoot a gas checked ww bullet then a pb linotype bullet. But if we were talking big bores and i wanted penetration above anything for larger game id go with the plain based lino. bullet. Now again this is my opinion, if you want the best rifle bullet mix your lino and ww 5050 and use a gas check too.

[405]

Like Bass said theres to many variables. Just going to a harder alloy doesnt gurantee better accuracy. It may guarntee that accuracy holds up over a longer string of shots but if you change alloys you change to many things. It may be that a bullet cast out of ww plain base will outshoot another bullet gas checked in a particular gun. A general rule of thumb (at least in my experience) is that at high pressures a gas check works better and so does harder lead. I guess for most rifle applications if i could get the accuracy i wanted id rather shoot a gas checked ww bullet then a pb linotype bullet. But if we were talking big bores and i wanted penetration above anything for larger game id go with the plain based lino. bullet. Now again this is my opinion, if you want the best rifle bullet mix your lino and ww 5050 and use a gas check too.

Agreed,
A very general rule I use is: use the softest alloy that shoots accurately in the load/rifle combination that suits a particular purpose. A point blank range hunting bullet need not be too accurate but hardness like that of lino is like shooting a tough solid or full jacketed J boolit- may or may not be the ideal. If hunting up to say 200 yds for normal game.... it usually pays to go softer IF the accuracy is there-- many times the GC bullet will provide that in the softer bullet. [I like the idea of the 50:50 mix of WW and lino with gas check- easy way to get a good alloy if you already have the sources]

The soft 5-6 BHN pure lead, big 400-500 gr. paper patched bullets in the single shots can be made to shoot with extreme accuracy in the 1300-1400 fps range and I wouldn't hesitate to tackle the largest game in NA with that combo at reasonable ranges.

If shooting only silly-whets or paper then ballistics, accuracy and multi shot fouling are the only concerns..... then more experimentation= more range time.... it's all good :mrgreen:

[runfiverun]

i usually try 4sn 7sb mix first then tweak load to get best results.
if still want more pressure or penetration then work on that
but that is just my rifle baseline with plain base boolits.
and generally where i start with g-check boolits.

of course i am not trying to get 2000 out of them.

run fiverun

[crabo]

Before I started casting for pistols, I read a lot here than started asking some specific questions. I am looking for a rifle to shoot cast bullets in and am trying to do some prep work to help me decide what to buy. I think that I have narrowed it down to a 35 caliber.

I tried to avoid the group buy forum for quite a while, then I slipped up and ordered a mold. Now I am looking at gas checks, and am thinking that I need to get some while the buy is still open. Plus I am wating for the BD 45 mold group buy to open.

It's funny how when I started this, I thought I only needed about 4 or 5 molds. Boy was I niave. The funny thing is that I can justify them all. (at least to myself)

I think I may have figured out a way to locate some linotype. I will let everyone know if it works out. A friend of minbe gave me about 60 pounds, but the sad thing is that he threw about about 6 five gallon buckets full because he didn't kow what to do with it.

Crabo

[bhp9]

My cast bullet experience has been with the military calibers and I have found pure Linotype with a gas check and sized over size will enable you to shoot to up to 1,950 fps with good accuracy and no leading especially when the wind is blowing or you are shooting over 100 yards.

When lower velocity loads are used accuracy drops off very quickly in the wind or when ranges exceed 100 yards.

Softer bullets in my experience just did not give me the upper level of accuracy when the velocity was increased. Nothing wrong with lower velocity and soft bullets on a windless day and at ranges of 100 yards or less.

One of the down sides of a hard bullet is getting it to obdurate properly as too low a velocity will not allow it to do this. I suppose that those who shoot lower velocity loadings will tend to stick with the softer mix of allow in their bullets.

I might add that I always, always us gas checks (Hornady) as it keeps the base of the bullet from being distorted and melted by the hot powder gases. The gas check does not prevent any leading as it is an under size bullet that does this, the leading coming from the sides (not the base of the bullet).

Many years ago I had a .44 magnum that would lead like crazy with the hard Linotype but leaded not a wit with pure lead bullets. I later discovered that the low power , low velocity, mid range loads I was using did not obdurate the bullet when using the hard Linotype metal but when using full power loads the Linotype metal leaded not at all.