Black Bear loads in 35 Whelen

[smoked turkey]

I have a Spring 2014 black bear hunt booked in New Brunswick, Canada. I am thinking very seriously about taking my Ruger MkII in 35 Whelen. Shots will be from a tree stand over bait at a distance of 30-80 yards I am told. I want to use either the Lyman 3589 or Accurate 360270B boolit. I have both molds and am doing some accuracy and velocity testing. I ran both boolits over the PACT Model 1 chronograph today and was surprised at the results. I am looking for opinions on my choice of both caliber and boolit, as well as some thoughts on the results of my real first day of testing. My rifle has a 21" bbl that slugs .358 with a 1-16 twist if I did my measuring correctly. Boolits were sized to .360". The chrono screens were set up ten (10) feet in front of the muzzle. I fired a total of ten shots today. All brass was neck sized only, with Rem LR primers, and loaded with 39.8 grains of IMR 3031. Two bullets (Hornady 250 gr RN), and eight boolits (four of each lead boolit mentioned above) were fired for both accuracy and velocity at 100 yards from a bench with a solid rest. The velocity was higher than I anticipated and was as follows:
Hornady 250 gr. RN- 2420'/s with a bullet spread of 1.125".
360270B 273 gr FN- 1953'/s with a spread of 2.125 and about 5.5" lower than the J-word group.
3589 293 gr- 1946'/s with a spread of 3" and about 2" lower than the 360270B group.
I had no leading or excessive pressure signs with any of the loads. I do however think the boolits are being driven faster than they should be. My conventional wisdom would limit the velocity to somewhere in the 1500-1600'/s range. I have almost a box left of the 3589 boolits and I am inclined to pull them and reduce the load about 10% and work up from there. The 3589 are seated in the crimp groove and felt they were engraving the rifling as the bolt turned with more resistance than the others which had no binding of any sort. I would appreciate a critique of what I have done along with recommendations on what to do next.
Let me say here that I have been following the 35 Whelen and 358009 threads down the page a ways and have learned a lot from the load development those guys have been doing. Thank you for all your good work with the 35 Whelen. I have benefited greatly from it all.
Stan...aka smoked turkey

[RugerFan]

I think the near 2 MOA you're getting with the 360270B would be fine at 30-80 yards. With no leading or signs of pressure, I believe your velocities are just fine (although the recoil must be pretty stiff). Reducing the velocity would probably tighten the groups some (and also reduce recoil). 1500-1600 FPS should be ok, but I personally would probably keep it around 1700-1800. Either way you're certainly on track.

[35 shooter]

My 358009 boolit is a gc design and my bbl. has a 1:14" twist and handles that boolit very well.
I've only used imr and h4350 powder with it though. My rifle didn't care for the h and prefers the imr4350. I hit a load right off with 48 gr. imr 4350 for 1950 fps. that shoots just over an inch at 100yds. I worked up slowly from there and hit another good load at 54 gr. imr4350 for 2200 fps. Had to play with seating depth a bit and now both loads shoot just over an inch to 1.5" at 100 yds.

I have used imr 3031 with a 200 gr. boolit and it shot well with 39 to 42 gr. but i had to use a dacron filler to get accuracy. I also had a few hangfires with out the filler. Had the same thing happen with h4895 in that range without a filler.
If your shooting a gc boolit in the 358009 or the 270 gr. it may pay to try a slower powder to get case fill and a gentler send off on the boolit.
Sounds like you have a pretty good load with the 273. gr. boolit right where it's at though. Maybe tweak that load of 3031 a bit and maybe play with seating depth a bit may tighten groups.
Long story short...seating depth became the major player with the 358009 for me.

Good luck on your hunt!

[MT Gianni]

If the recoil is manageable for the 3589 load i would see how many yards of wet phone book it will shoot through and leave it alone. If it needs tweaking, tweak the alloy.
Did you mean spring 2015?

[Beerd]

..........see how many yards of wet phone book it will shoot through................
better measure that in meters, he's going to Canada.
..

[smoked turkey]

Yes I meant 2015 not 2014! Geesh I need more help than I thought!
Thanks for the good replies so far. It is good to see that I am not way out in left field with some of my load work up. I didn't mention that I really want to take the big thumper 3589. So if I can get things to go right that is what I will do. The Accurate 360270B is a dandy also. I plan to try IMR 4350, and also to try some different C.O.A.L. The recoil of my current load is manageable but it is all there. I probably won't notice it if a big black bear is out there some 60 yards when I pull the trigger. I am pretty excited about the hunt. As you can tell this is my first bear hunt so I am pumped already. My younger son Mike is also going. He is taking his 375 Ruger. When we asked the outfitter what caliber to bring, he said..."bring the biggest caliber you can shoot good. I don't like tracking wounded bears in the rough stuff." Good enough for me. Thanks for the responses so far.

[35 shooter]

I think you'll get that 358009 to do what you want it to without too much hassle. Lol it's definitly a flying brick and my favorite boolit for the whelen! Anywhere around 1900 fps there won't be much you can't do with it. I'm interested to see what you come up with using the 3031.

[Mk42gunner]

Stan,

You asked for a critique, so here goes.

1. You velocity seems high for the amount of powder used; I looked at data in three different loading manuals for 250 grain bullets with 3031, all had significantly more powder with less velocity. Are you sure the chronograph is reading close to right? I used to check my Chrony with a few rounds of .22LR from one box to make sure it was close.

2. I would do whatever it takes to get freely chambering ammo for a hunting situation, whether it is full length sizing of brass or seating the boolit a skosh deeper.

3. It sounds like your accuracy is sufficient for a 30-80 yard shot, but we all like those sometimes mythical MOA groups. I would setup some sort of penetration testing just so I could get an idea of bullet/boolit performance. If you end up using the j word, I would push it full throttle.

What part of southern MO are you from?

Good Luck,

Robert

[Mike H]

I can't find my targets and chronograph results,so going from memory,using a CBE 360-300grain bullet.40 grains of 2206,close enough to 3031,shot well,45 grains of 2208 (varget) was good,2213SC (H4831SC) was the best.As I said I can't find my data,but the H4831SC was over 50grains and about 2200 fps.I wouldn't use your 3031loads,that amount of powder in the Whelen case is rattling around,probably a Dacron wad would be good,but I have not used one in this situation.Unless the 250 Hornady RN has toughened up,I wouldn't use them,the box I had were as soft as butter.
You definitely should be able to get 2200fps and more with the 3589.
Best of luck.
Mike.

[MT Gianni]

Everything I have read and my limited testing shows that the Whelen prefers powders of the medium speed and faster than 4350. I think you are on the right track with 3031, AA2015, 4320, etc.

[smoked turkey]

Mk42gunner: thanks for the comments. Yes have questioned the accuracy of my Pact model 1 chronograph. I do need to shoot some ammo with known velocity, but not sure how to go about knowing for sure what the velocity is before hand. I can say that the recoil on my shoulder feels like it is right! Ha. I do have to achieve easier chambering by seating the boolit some deeper. It is not bad. Just enough that I can tell I am into the rifling a bit. A bear hunt is no place to have resistance chambering a round. I am located north of Springfield about 15 miles.
MT Gianni: I had plans to give IMR 4350 a try based on 35 shooter's load development. I have an 8 lb keg of 3031 and as such I would really like to get it to work for me since I have a good supply. I will do a wet phone book test for penetration as you suggested. I am interested in the results. This load development is all part of the fun. I am enjoying working with the Whelen. It is a great caliber.
Thanks to all for the very helpful comments.

[Mike H]

Everything I have read and my limited testing shows that the Whelen prefers powders of the medium speed and faster than 4350. I think you are on the right track with 3031, AA2015, 4320, etc.
True,however you are forgetting he wants to use a 300 grain cast bullet,with slower powders,he will get all the velocity needed as well as accuracy.Recoil is not going to be a worry.
Mike.

[Yodogsandman]

I shot the 358009 for the first time today...using a starting load of 48.0gr IMR4350 per 35 shooter. O.A.L. was 3.180". This is 5 shots at 100 yards. I also have a 1 in 12" twist Douglas barrel (22"). The Lyman 3589 is the same as the 358009. I pulled that shot at 10 o'clock in the photo. Group measures 1.840" including the pulled shot.

[TXGunNut]

Everything I have read and my limited testing shows that the Whelen prefers powders of the medium speed and faster than 4350. I think you are on the right track with 3031, AA2015, 4320, etc.


I agree, according to what I've read the 4350 class of powders seems too slow for the 35 Whelen. My rifle disagrees with us and a few other rifles around here back her up. ;-)

[35 shooter]

I shot the 358009 for the first time today...using a starting load of 48.0gr IMR4350 per 35 shooter. O.A.L. was 3.180". This is 5 shots at 100 yards. I also have a 1 in 12" twist Douglas barrel (22"). The Lyman 3589 is the same as the 358009. I pulled that shot at 10 o'clock in the photo. Group measures 1.840" including the pulled shot.

WOW! Good shooting. Looks like that old lyman mould you picked up is gonna be a winner!

[smoked turkey]

Yodogsandman you flat shot the center out of that paper plate! Great shooting. I guess I will have to try that IMR 4350 recipe. As I mentioned my twist rate is a bit too slow for my old 3589 but I am going to do some experimenting with it to see if I can shrink my groups some. I just realized that to test my expansion in wet phone books is gonna take more than a few to get adequate depth. I have always loathed the things because it seems they are hard for me to get rid of once a new one arrives. How here I am looking for a few. Go figure.

[Mike H]

Yodogsandman you flat shot the center out of that paper plate! Great shooting. I guess I will have to try that IMR 4350 recipe. As I mentioned my twist rate is a bit too slow for my old 3589 but I am going to do some experimenting with it to see if I can shrink my groups some. I just realized that to test my expansion in wet phone books is gonna take more than a few to get adequate depth. I have always loathed the things because it seems they are hard for me to get rid of once a new one arrives. How here I am looking for a few. Go figure.
All I will say is,forget these three shot groups ,try a couple of ten shot groups,see how they go,if that looks good.then try the same load from a clean barrel,a number of times,if the first shot from a clean barrel is predictable,go with it.I doubt you will need more than one shot,if you make a good hit for the first shot.
Mike.

[leftiye]

I agree, according to what I've read the 4350 class of powders seems too slow for the 35 Whelen. My rifle disagrees with us and a few other rifles around here back her up. ;-)

I agree.

Cast ain't jacketed. Slower powders help accuracy by getting good velocity at lower pressures. Thereby reducing deforming of the boolit and aiding starting/engraving. More often than not maximum velocities aren't sought when shooting cast, whereas with jacketed max, or near max is the norm. While the whelen case is probly too small to get max velocity with 4350 (it is the bomb in .375 improved), it probly is a top powder for cast. Don't underload it too much, as it has been known to give pressure excursions when loaded too light, especially in smaller bores/overbore ctgs.

[Blammer]

Smoked Turkey, I'd water drop the two bullets you have and see how they do leaving all else the same.

Bear are tough so a tad harder projectile won't penalize you. If anything it may help with the accuracy, goodness knows it did for me!

My Whelen dotes on water dropped with IMR4350 and IMR4895. It's what I'm taking elk hunting this year. :)

[Yodogsandman]

smoked turkey, guess I should have mentioned that I also heat treated my 358009 boolits but, in a toaster oven at 450 deg for an hour and quenched into a 5 gallon bucket of ice water. This just about doubles the alloys BHN in the first day and over the next 5 days will add a few more.

If you think they'll be too hard for bear, you could stand them in a pan of water up to their noses after HT'ing and heat up only the noses to about 450 deg and allow them to air cool. That will bring the noses back to about the hardness of the original alloy. The drive bands would remain hardened allowing for faster speed and better accuracy.

[Yodogsandman]

BTW, 48.0gr was just the starting load....more to come! Also, I FL resized and just had slight rifling contact.

[smoked turkey]

I recall a thread on WDWW being more accurate for a lot of folks. I was wondering if it would still work good as a hunting boolit with the additional hardness. I will water drop some of the two boolits as suggested and shoot for accuracy and expansion in wet phone books. I mentioned to my SWMBO that I was going to do some testing for expansion in wet phone books and that I was going to need several more. She said wish I'd known because I just burned ours in the last trash burning. I almost always do the trash burning but this time she did it to help me out. LOL.

[35 shooter]

Blammer's spot on about the water dropping to get accuracy in the whelen. I had to do the same thing,except i heat treated in an oven @ 460* for i hour, then dropped them in cold water. I couldn't get much past 1800 fps with accuracy untill i did that. My alloy is just straight ww. Yodogsandman is right...they harden up fast.
Now that my casting rythm is better i'm gonna try water dropping too.

[35 shooter]

BTW, 48.0gr was just the starting load....more to come! Also, I FL resized and just had slight rifling contact.

Lol! I believe you kind of like that 4350. I love that 48 gr. load with the 358009 because to me the recoil was "soft" ....for a rather heavy boolit that is.
Can't wait for you and smoked turkey to do some more testing!
If there's one thing i love as much as shooting a whelen, it's reading about someone else shooting one!:popcorn:

[leftiye]

smoked turkey, guess I should have mentioned that I also heat treated my 358009 boolits but, in a toaster oven at 450 deg for an hour and quenched into a 5 gallon bucket of ice water. This just about doubles the alloys BHN in the first day and over the next 5 days will add a few more.

If you think they'll be too hard for bear, you could stand them in a pan of water up to their noses after HT'ing and heat up only the noses to about 450 deg and allow them to air cool. That will bring the noses back to about the hardness of the original alloy. The drive bands would remain hardened allowing for faster speed and better accuracy.

Might melt. 300 degrees is enough.

[Blammer]

smoked turkey, with the added hardness I'm getting higher velocity, it still mushrooms but penetrates mo betta and retains all the wt, or most of it.

I'm expecting two holes when I pull the trigger, and the angle won't matter. Broadside or stem to stern, I'm getting mine!

[Yodogsandman]

Just some more results of shooting !MR4350 using the 358009 at 49.0gr,50.0 and 51.0gr. These are 10 shot groups at 100 yards. Haven't cleaned my barrel for a month. Shot 5 shots, waited 25 minutes for the barrel to cool and shot 5 more for each load level. Temperature was 85F, sunny, breezy and lots of other shooter activity. I know, I got the date written wrong on the target, at the range.

[35 shooter]

Wow! Nice shooting yodogsandman! Looks like 48, 49 and 51 gr. wants to shoot good.

[smoked turkey]

Yodogsandman That is good shooting. It appears you are careful and thorough with good note taking. I discovered my 4350 is Hodgdon not IMR. H4350 is next door to IMR 4350 in my burn rate chart. It would seem that it would be safe to use the IMR data if I drop it to something like 47 gr to start and work up. I was wondering if anyone has used H4350 and if the burn rate characteristics are close enough to start low and work up? My Hodgdon reloading information is pretty sparse so any help is appreciated on using my H4350. Thanks!

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman That is good shooting. It appears you are careful and thorough with good note taking. I discovered my 4350 is Hodgdon not IMR. H4350 is next door to IMR 4350 in my burn rate chart. It would seem that it would be safe to use the IMR data if I drop it to something like 47 gr to start and work up. I was wondering if anyone has used H4350 and if the burn rate characteristics are close enough to start low and work up? My Hodgdon reloading information is pretty sparse so any help is appreciated on using my H4350. Thanks!

I started with 48 gr. with both h and imr 4350. The h4350 has worked out well in at least one rifle here, but imr worked best in mine. My brother in Co. started with the same 48 gr. load in his rifle but wound up using aa4350. If your h4350 doesn't work then maybe try imr. It seems different rifles can prefer a different brand over another....very strange indeed. The 3 powders are close on the chart, but they're not exactly the same...coatings on each probably being the biggest difference in burn and pressure rate. The 48 gr. start load was with the 300 gr. boolit, i started with 50 gr. with a 200 gr. boolit.

I still think you could find a good load with 3031 or maybe 4895 with your 3589. I'm gonna try it myself once hunting seasons over. 4350 is definitly a good powder for the whelen though...it's become my go to powder for mine!
BTW... Pay attention to what Blammer says as he has some smokin loads with his 200 gr. boolits with 4895. Lol, i've seen the pics of some of his groups,and they are impressive!

[Yodogsandman]

You'll need to some how heat treat your boolits to shoot the starting load of 48.0gr H or IMR4350, 35 shooter reported velocities of 1950 FPS at that level.

When shooting my NEI 358 282GC at 301gr un-heat treated, accuracy deteriorated at about 1800 FPS.

[35 shooter]

You'll need to some how heat treat your boolits to shoot the starting load of 48.0gr H or IMR4350, 35 shooter reported velocities of 1950 FPS at that level.

When shooting my NEI 358 282GC at 301gr un-heat treated, accuracy deteriorated at about 1800 FPS.

I'll be glad when you chrono that 48 gr. load too. I was using an f1 chrony and the sun was on a hard slant on my right. I've read that's not the best time to chrono with the sun slanting like that without shading the screen, which i didn't do. Lol my shoulder still says that load is 2000 plus, but that's not what the chrony said. I did have the sky filters in place, just didn't shade the side the sun was on.