disappointed and need help

[cstrickland]

ok so I have been attempting to ASBBDT . First I bought some harbor freight red , and got so so results. the powder stuck but did not stick in some spots, and after baking the boolits were covered, but just splotchy looking and had a few bare spots. So I figure its the powder as I had limited success, so I break down and order some flat black fro smoke. Well the package comes today and I am all excited, as I am going to get some boolits coated and be able to shoot them . Well here is what I got !!!! I am so disappointed that I just can not tell you

116793116794

Here is what I did. black ASBB crossman, #5 container ( actually tried two different ones) cleaned container and boolits with acetone and dried thoroughly. shook for 3 minutes. temp outside right now is about 65° F and humidity is right around 67%

I actually got much better results with the HF red. I am about to scream what is going wrong !!!!!


charlie

[petroid]

If you can, get a cool whip container. Or a different #5 polypropylene container. I tried clear ones with poor results. My best luck has been by putting one layer of boolits in the bowl and a tbsp or so of PC and swirling rather than shaking. You might try using mineral spirits to degrease first and allow to dry. Works for me! Good luck!

[cstrickland]

If you can, get a cool whip container. Or a different #5 polypropylene container. I tried clear ones with poor results. My best luck has been by putting one layer of boolits in the bowl and a tbsp or so of PC and swirling rather than shaking. You might try using mineral spirits to degrease first and allow to dry. Works for me! Good luck!

I assume you are using ASBB's as well correct ?? I tried two different #5 containers but both were clear. I cleaned and dried with acetone. I would think that would be as good as mineral spirits but maybe not

thanks Petroid

chalrie

[petroid]

I don't use the BBs but I don't know if it makes a difference. The humidity may be a factor. In KY it gets quite humid though not so much as of late. Try taking it in the house to tumble. And make sure you keep your PC container sealed. Once the PC gets moisture I was never able to get it to work right

[cstrickland]

67% is a killer for me, anything above 30% I ESPC.

I m not convinced that it becuse I was able to use the HF red in the same conditions.

[hanleyfan]

I am in southern ohio and have no trouble getting the powder to stick, I used HF, powderbythepound, eastwood powder, smokes powder and all powder and they all worked. First you have to play with it to get the hang of it, when you swirl the boolits they will not pick up powder right away and it takes anywhere from 2-4 minutes for the coating to begin and than the last period you need to shake the tub up and down violently before stopping. from the looks of your picture those boolits look like they were not totally dry or your powder is wet with something. my powder never clumps up like that on the boolits. every now and than I get some stubborn boolits that I have to coat twice.

[kungfustyle]

start with a hand full and roll some leads in mineral spirits. Let them just about dry and try it again Powder coating. let the tub sit inside w/ the top off while things are drying. Hopefully its less humid inside. Something in the mineral spirits helps.....

[crowbuster]

Could there be a film of some sort on those boolits ?

[cstrickland]

Could there be a film of some sort on those boolits ?

I dont think so I cleaned them with acetone, so they should be clean. I let them dry as well

[cstrickland]

I am in southern ohio and have no trouble getting the powder to stick, I used HF, powderbythepound, eastwood powder, smokes powder and all powder and they all worked. First you have to play with it to get the hang of it, when you swirl the boolits they will not pick up powder right away and it takes anywhere from 2-4 minutes for the coating to begin and than the last period you need to shake the tub up and down violently before stopping. from the looks of your picture those boolits look like they were not totally dry or your powder is wet with something. my powder never clumps up like that on the boolits. every now and than I get some stubborn boolits that I have to coat twice.

I do not think its the powder I just opened the bag I got from SMOKE and it flowed like flour. no clumps what so ever. I am wondering what the ratio of powder to bb's should be

[hanleyfan]

I never clean my boolits, I just cast and coat. I tried cleaning the boolits once and saw not difference in the coating process. I would dump the powder out of the bowl and try with fresh powder.

[el34]

I am so disappointed that I just can not tell you.
charlie

Charlie I feel your pain. Or I did, until I took a deep breath and went back to ES spraying. I'd encourage you to keep that option tucked away and I also hope you can discover the real trick for DT. Sometimes it sounds like instructions for various dance steps needed to make it rain. ES gives you perfect coverage every day, weather, powder, all that.

You'll find a way to get PC'd boolits, one way or another.

[Beagle333]

I have never used the black. Something is definitely not right about the conditions for using that though. Have you pm'd Smoke on it to see how he uses the black?

[Moonie]

I did 3 batches in my vibratory brass cleaner and they coated perfectly. By the fourth batch the temperature and humidity had come up and it looked just like yours. I added some packing peanuts and back to perfect coating.

[Garyshome]

I use lacquer thinner

[cstrickland]

I did 3 batches in my vibratory brass cleaner and they coated perfectly. By the fourth batch the temperature and humidity had come up and it looked just like yours. I added some packing peanuts and back to perfect coating.

I will see if we have some at work and give this a try. thanks

[cstrickland]

Charlie I feel your pain. Or I did, until I took a deep breath and went back to ES spraying. I'd encourage you to keep that option tucked away and I also hope you can discover the real trick for DT. Sometimes it sounds like instructions for various dance steps needed to make it rain. ES gives you perfect coverage every day, weather, powder, all that.

You'll find a way to get PC'd boolits, one way or another.

El you do not know just how close I am to heading to HF tomorrow and picking up a ES unit. I had told my self if I did not get the results I wanted from the better powder that was my next step. if it takes this many steps to get it down I am not sure its worth it.

[cstrickland]

I have never used the black. Something is definitely not right about the conditions for using that though. Have you pm'd Smoke on it to see how he uses the black?

beagle that is one of the first things I did. I am sure he will get back to me tomorrow, so I am holding until then

[Beagle333]

Even if you do keep tumbling when you only need a few coated.... get the HF unit! You'll love it!

[sdcitizen]

Mine looked like that when they hadn't completely dried after water dropping. I put the container with the powder and bb's and boolits on top of a warm hot plate for a half hour to dry everything out. I could still touch the plate without getting a burn type of warm. After a half hour they coated perfectly.

[el34]

Even if you do keep tumbling when you only need a few coated.... get the HF unit! You'll love it!
Hey! You joining my rant? :smile:

[cstrickland]

Mine looked like that when they hadn't completely dried after water dropping. I put the container with the powder and bb's and boolits on top of a warm hot plate for a half hour to dry everything out. I could still touch the plate without getting a burn type of warm. After a half hour they coated perfectly.

I think I am going to try something similar and see if some dry heat in the oven ill build some static. I am also going to try some Styrofoam in the mix to build static as well.

[cstrickland]

Even if you do keep tumbling when you only need a few coated.... get the HF unit! You'll love it!

I guess since I had limited success with the HF red, that I expected the better powder would put it over the top for me. I read someone say the powder just jumps on the the boolits. I do not remember who that was but they must have been in the middle of the desert with 0 humidity and 125°F and wrapping in a bag of packing peanuts or something, cause that aint what my experience was. I still don't know maybe its all just me not knowing how to do it.

Like I wrote to EL34 I am just that close to scraping it all. I like the ideal but if all the stars need to line up to get it to work, then I will leave it as just what it is an alternative.

[Smoke4320]

duplicate post

[Smoke4320]

cstrickland and to all
This one may be on me.. when I ordered the Flat Black (I got 70 Lbs of the stuff) I asked several times was this the exact same formula as all the other powders I had ordered and was told yes.. since everything so far had tested great did not take the time to test this on color..

Sold some to several customers and not one reported any problem so when cstrickland asked if this worked DT I say the same thing .. sold several lots and no reported issues..
so Now I am for the time being going to mark the Flat Black No DT method (till I have time to test my self. some time this weekend ) and report back ..
Also will offer cstrickland a refund or I will send him a replacement order of the color he desires

PS I will be gone for several hours this morning so will not post back for a while today

[Blanco]

Here is a bit of what I discovered about ASBBDT
It is possible to contaminate your mix with certian things that will kill the static generating capabilities of the bowl and BBs
This was back when I started BBDT but I was running along coating boolits like a factory. I saw one of my Air soft BBs that had escaped from the bowl so I dropped it back in. From that point on i could not get the powder to stick at all. I had to throw out all the pieces associated with that batch. Got a new bowl,new bbs,new boolits and all was good. So ... the point is watch what you put in and work to keep stuff out that don't belong. The one that will get you is graphite, which happens to be used in smokeless powder to ... cut down static cling!
As an added note I find the theory about humidity to be bunk. I seem to get better coverage when its raining. I do find that a lot of what is gospel on here is just not the case with me personally. I always have been oddball

[jakec]

i was one that said it just jumps on there. it did for me. i hate your having problems man. im in norhtwest florida and its 100% humidity most of the time. the humidity has never affected tumble coating for me. i think it might be something in the powder. ive never tried flat black but it seems that it has the most problems for people. maybe whatever makes it flat instead of gloss.

[el34]

Flat black sprays perfectly. Banger used it exclusively.

Every powder works in the spray gun. Perhaps it's because the gun strongly charges the powder, giving the powder itself the reason for sticking. In DT it might be that the boolits are what hopefully gets charged with the expectation that they will then attract the non-charged powder, like dust can be attracted by a statically charged object.

[Beagle333]

Now I am for the time being going to mark the Flat Black No DT method (till I have time to test my self. some time this weekend ) and report back ..
Also will offer cstrickland a refund or I will send him a replacement order of the color he desires


Customer Service:

It don't get much better than that! :bigsmyl2:

[cstrickland]

cstrickland and to all
This one may be on me.. when I ordered the Flat Black (I got 70 Lbs of the stuff) I asked several times was this the exact same formula as all the other powders I had ordered and was told yes.. since everything so far had tested great did not take the time to test this on color..

Sold some to several customers and not one reported any problem so when cstrickland asked if this worked DT I say the same thing .. sold several lots and no reported issues..
so Now I am for the time being going to mark the Flat Black No DT method (till I have time to test my self. some time this weekend ) and report back ..
Also will offer cstrickland a refund or I will send him a replacement order of the color he desires

PS I will be gone for several hours this morning so will not post back for a while today

SMOKE I appreciate that. I am very interested to find out what your test results are. I seen somewhere ( even in this post) that some of the flat blacks do not work for DT, and maybe that is it. Possible an additive or something not in there causing issue. I want to try some peanuts and something else this evening and weekend, if I can not get that to work then I would like to try one of the other powders you offer.

Like I said I did not think it was all me as I have used HF red and got mehh results. I even went back last night and tried again with same results. I get it to stick but not full coverage. I know I can do two coats with the HF red and get good result, but I wanted a more smooth flowed out look, and was hoping to get that with one coat of the powder you have

in all fairness the powder does look great, everything I have heard about it was right on the money. I just can not get the flat black which is the only one I have tried to work for me.

I will post back this evening or tomorrow with my test results.

thanks to all for the suggestions

[cstrickland]

i was one that said it just jumps on there. it did for me. i hate your having problems man. im in norhtwest florida and its 100% humidity most of the time. the humidity has never affected tumble coating for me. i think it might be something in the powder. ive never tried flat black but it seems that it has the most problems for people. maybe whatever makes it flat instead of gloss.


yeah I knew I read it somewhere. no reason for you to feel bad. Was it the flat black you were using ??

[jakec]

no i havent tried flat black just the gloss colors. its gotta be something in the flat that makes it not stick good. i can send you a little bit of the powders i have if you want to try them.

[bangerjim]

I have never used Smoke's matte black which I think is what you show in the pix. I get the EXACT SAME result using the HF black when using any method other than ESPC.

Please contact Smoke and ask him. There may be something in all matte finishes that kills a lot of the static and, coupled with our high humidity environments this time of year, may be causing the poor coatings. I am sure Smoke's black will ESPC just fine!

There are many many variables in BBDT'ing that I have found personally and have been reported by the many on here doing that process. Here in AZ right now, our dew points are in the mid 60's and tumbling really is sketchy.....takes a lot more swirling and shaking up & down to get a 90% coat. And I have to repeat the up & down at least twice while picking up a batch of 75 or 80. My shop is fully A/C'd but that pesky moisture seems to get into everything!

I have found that the round coolwhip or ZipLok screw-on lid containers (#5 plastic) give the best results. And I use only a single layer of black BB's on the bottom with about a 1/2 tsp of powder (not matte black!). You show a TON of BB's in there. Refresh the powder as it depletes.

Works for me........MOST of the time. This humidity is a real static killer. And doing it inside the house or shop does not seem to give me any better results. That is why ESPC is my go-to method.

ESPC probably even works with a rainstorm outside! But I have not gone down that path yet! Has anyone out there tried it????????????? We would all welcome your feedback.

Keep coating! And posting your results.

bangerjim

[el34]

How fast does a dessicant pack work?

[bangerjim]

Here is a bit of what I discovered about ASBBDT
It is possible to contaminate your mix with certian things that will kill the static generating capabilities of the bowl and BBs
This was back when I started BBDT but I was running along coating boolits like a factory. I saw one of my Air soft BBs that had escaped from the bowl so I dropped it back in. From that point on i could not get the powder to stick at all. I had to throw out all the pieces associated with that batch. Got a new bowl,new bbs,new boolits and all was good. So ... the point is watch what you put in and work to keep stuff out that don't belong. The one that will get you is graphite, which happens to be used in smokeless powder to ... cut down static cling!
As an added note I find the theory about humidity to be bunk. I seem to get better coverage when its raining. I do find that a lot of what is gospel on here is just not the case with me personally. I always have been oddball

You are so right about graphite (and molly). I tried both early on, hoping to get it into the mix. Killed everything! Including the coolwhip bowl! Even washing out with Laq Thinner did not get the bowl to work again like a new one. That is probably why propellant makers use it in there, to minimize static cling on powder hoppers and measures.

Yes, there are a lot of stories on what does and does not work for some and not for others. Kinda like "holding your mouth just right" to catch fish. I guess that is why you never hear of industry dry tumbling motorcycle rims and patio furniture! :veryconfu

ESPC is the industry standard for powder coating. The powder was engineered to be applied that way. It does take a bit of up-front $$ investment but, for those of us on here that use it, know it really performs! Day in and day out.

Keep on plugging.

And Smoke is a straight shooter! I have his blue and plan on getting other different colors from his inventory as my needs arise.

banger

[bangerjim]

How fast does a dessicant pack work?

From what I know of those little packs, they are a long-term hygroscopic (water attractant) dryer to prevent moisture buildup in already dry products, especially stuff shipped from Chicom manufacturers across the pond. They absorb air-born moisture, but not that rapidly. The most common desiccant is silica, an otherwise inert, nontoxic, water-insoluble white solid. Tens of thousands of tons are produced annually for this purpose. Other desiccants include activated charcoal (those little round plastic things in vitamin bottles), calcium sulfate, and calcium chloride, to name some.

You might try throwing some of those active packs into some powder and let them do their job for a week or so and let us know. I throw them away when I get any so I have none for a test. ( I love tests!!!!!)

banger

[Smoke4320]

Just tried the flat black DT method .. Its a no go. This was the first batch I purchased from another manufacturer (hense the different stock number)and probably the last as they mislead me. Still on me for not checking behind them
So Mr Cstrickland contact me tomorrow and I will make this right to you
Very very sorry

[bangerjim]

Smoke.......there are still a bunch of us that ESPC matte black so all is not lost!

Have a sale and you will probably sell some. Right now I have 5# of HF black so I cannot help you out.

But it produces some of the BEST looking boolits I have ever seen.

Can you get the MSDS sheet from your supplier and post it? Curious if it is the same make-up as the HF stuff. I have a sneeeeeking suspicion that NO matte or flat powder will work with BBDT.

banger

[cstrickland]

Just tried the flat black DT method .. Its a no go. This was the first batch I purchased from another manufacturer (hense the different stock number)and probably the last as they mislead me. Still on me for not checking behind them
So Mr Cstrickland contact me tomorrow and I will make this right to you
Very very sorry

smoke no big deal . your offering to make it right and looked into it immediately, and that is all any reasonable person could ask. I was wanting flat black, but let me look at the other colors and see if there is something interesting. I will PM you through the site tomorrow and let you know

[Blanco]

Smokes Signal Blue (Superman Blue) is one of the best for coverage I have ever tried with the BBDT method. Fantastic coverage and they just look wicked cool.

116899

[cstrickland]

Smokes Signal Blue (Superman Blue) is one of the best for coverage I have ever tried with the BBDT method. Fantastic coverage and they just look wicked cool.

116899

blanco do you have an samples of the gloss black ?? thinking I might go that way

[cstrickland]

well smoke is getting me out some different powder. I am gong to give it a another try before I drop it and go to ESPC.

i'll let ya all know how it turns out later this week

[Blanco]

The Gloss black has good coverage, however it does not seem to cover as well (for me) as the blue using BBDT. I get small spots that don't cover on one coat with black. No difference in the way they shoot.
I will say that everyone seems to get a bit different results depending on their method, and a host of other variables.
My personal method is
#5 round Ziplock bowl with snap on lid
enough black ASBB's to completely cover the bottom of the bowl, don't be tempted to use more.
1 Teaspoon of the Polyester powder of choice.
I put in a handful at a time 15~20 boolits. It doesn't hurt to clean them beforehand in acetone or lacquer thinner.
Swirl the boolits and BB's in a circular motion so that the boolits amd BB's ride up on the sides of the bowl. The object here is to generate static.
I generally give it about 30~45 sec. Next HOLD THE LID and shake the bowl vigorously up and down10~15 seconds. Repeat the sequence 3X with less time each round. Finish with a gentle shake for a couple of seconds.
Line the pan you are going to bake with using non stick aluminum foil.
Gently pick out the coated boolits with tweezers or hemos or small pliers.
If the boolit has too much powder, tap the tweezers on the rim of the bowl to knock off excess.

[cstrickland]

The Gloss black has good coverage, however it does not seem to cover as well (for me) as the blue using BBDT. I get small spots that don't cover on one coat with black. No difference in the way they shoot.
I will say that everyone seems to get a bit different results depending on their method, and a host of other variables.
My personal method is
#5 round Ziplock bowl with snap on lid
enough black ASBB's to completely cover the bottom of the bowl, don't be tempted to use more.
1 Teaspoon of the Polyester powder of choice.
I put in a handful at a time 15~20 boolits. It doesn't hurt to clean them beforehand in acetone or lacquer thinner.
Swirl the boolits and BB's in a circular motion so that the boolits amd BB's ride up on the sides of the bowl. The object here is to generate static.
I generally give it about 30~45 sec. Next HOLD THE LID and shake the bowl vigorously up and down10~15 seconds. Repeat the sequence 3X with less time each round. Finish with a gentle shake for a couple of seconds.
Line the pan you are going to bake with using non stick aluminum foil.
Gently pick out the coated boolits with tweezers or hemos or small pliers.
If the boolit has too much powder, tap the tweezers on the rim of the bowl to knock off excess.

Blanco I would swear you were watching over my shoulder. The only difference is I had a few more BB's in mine, as I was still experimenting. I also tried 3 different containers but all were #5 and cleaned well.

Other than that I was using the same method. I got OK results with the HF red doing this.
thanks

[FredBuddy]

Yup, I use Blanco's exact method, and so far Smoke's pink and blue, with good results.
and I'm sorta in Northeast Ohio, too.

[el34]

Blanco (anyone), any idea why the vigorous up/down shake? Is it just one of nature's secrets? What happens if you don't do it?

[bangerjim]

Blanco (anyone), any idea why the vigorous up/down shake? Is it just one of nature's secrets? What happens if you don't do it?

It is just "one of those things" that I and others have found that gives that last 10-15% coverage. Every time I do NOT do it, I get spotty covering. Shaking up & down for 10-15 second does something in there to get darn good coverage.

I tap the hemo on the side of the container to get rid of any extra powder.

Just like holding your mouth right......do whatever it takes! If you do not do it, well.....mabe 70% coverage? Your mileage may vary.

Try it!

banger

[Blanco]

I will share my completely un-scientific observational hypothesis.
The swirling motion that generates the static tends to coat the boolits a bit too thickly. The up and down shake tends to bump off the excess.
These repeated motions tends to strongly adhere the powder that has a proclivity to adhere to the boolit to begin with. I believe that the up and down shaking also mechanically pounds the powder to the surface, making a strong bond stronger while losing the powder that has less mechanical and static adhesion.

[Blanco]

I would like to take a moment to recognize Banger Jim.
While our craft is not an exact science, it is a collective effort. We all pick up and use bits and pieces of information here. Many of the methods are evoloutionary, as we try diffrent things we share and learn from each other.
From my viewpoint, Banger Jim is where I picked up a good deal of my information and methodology. He has tried quite a few things and has some sage advice. As we proclaim ourselves genius we must recognize those who gave us our ideas.
It is always nice to recognize our teachers.

Banger Jim :drinks: Cheers

[morayman]

I drink to that!!!!! ,here's to Banger Jim!! morayman...........

[bangerjim]

Thanks guys. As I have said many times B4, I am just a humble member of an excellent group of people on here who "got a burr under their saddles" and worked tirelessly hours on end coating and swirling and shaking and baking to find the closest to the best methods to allow all of us to do this alternate lube technique.

I am glad I could help you out and I will strive to continue messing around with stuff!

And please............. post your own personal results, good or bad! We all learn together.

I hope everyone continues to strive for Powder Coating Valhalla.

banger

[el34]

When I was a new caster and forum member Banger was the first person I hooked up with via PM because I quickly recognized him as one of the top smart ones.

Another round on me-
:drinks:

[Blanco]

I wanted to make sure to give due credit.
I mentioned in one of my earlier posts "My Method"
My method is just a slight variation of Jim's method.
While recognition is good, i'm sure Jim got his ideas from someone too. That is as it should be, as Jim says share your results!
If we all share, whether it be success or failure, we all learn. I have made plenty of mistakes and I try to share my experience where I can. Sometimes the seeds we plant are not ours to harvest.

[kenn]

Get a better powder from someone like smoke on here or from powder by the pound. World of difference for me. I threw the HF red away. As soon as you open the better powder you'll notice right away that it is much finer texture. I get a very, very good coat with powder by the pound arctic green and durable wet black. There's absolutely no need for a second coating and I have to bang the side of the tub after taking them out to prevent the boolits from having too much powder. I tumble in about 50% RH on average -- sometimes a little higher -- and I'll never use the HF red again after such easy results with those two mentioned above.

[marvelshooter]

I was having trouble getting my powder to stick because of humidity recently. I placed everything in a wooden box with a cover and a 40 watt light bulb. A couple of hours later the temp in the box had risen 20 degrees and the humidity had dropped from over 70% to less than 50% and the powder coated the boolits almost too good. Just a thought that might help someone fighting humidity.

[el34]

Maybe bake it in the toaster oven 120 deg or so? Tub, BB's, boolits, all of it just before shaking.

[Smoke4320]

Cstrickland your powder replacement shipped out yesterday USPS Priority Mail

On the Black someone above mentioned about a few spots not being coated .. I will bet if you get them in good light you will see that you actually have a clear coat over that spot just not the black coloring .. Kind of weird but I have seen it a few times myself...does not effect the grouping or bore protection at all .. At least as far as I have seen

heating the bullets to about 120 degrees will help coverage just don't go overboard ..150+ degrees and you will get powder instantly melting to the bullets and then get clumps

PS.. and yes I started another sales thread with Flat Black on special.. 2 notations that it is for spraying only ..
got 70 lbs of this stuff to move :(

[bangerjim]

Cstrickland your powder replacement shipped out yesterday USPS Priority Mail

On the Black someone above mentioned about a few spots not being coated .. I will bet if you get them in good light you will see that you actually have a clear coat over that spot just not the black coloring .. Kind of weird but I have seen it a few times myself...does not effect the grouping or bore protection at all .. At least as far as I have seen

heating the bullets to about 120 degrees will help coverage just don't go overboard ..150+ degrees and you will get powder instantly melting to the bullets and then get clumps

PS.. and yes I started another sales thread with Flat Black on special.. 2 notations that it is for spraying only ..
got 70 lbs of this stuff to move :(

You reiterated an observation I have pointed out several times in numerous threads......even though the pigment is not totally covering the lead, the base material (clear) seems to be covering even the supposedly bare spots. I have observed that on the yellow and white HF stuff I have. Not perrrrrrty, but looks like the protection is actually there.

Good luck on the matte black sale!


banger

[cstrickland]

Cstrickland your powder replacement shipped out yesterday USPS Priority Mail

On the Black someone above mentioned about a few spots not being coated .. I will bet if you get them in good light you will see that you actually have a clear coat over that spot just not the black coloring .. Kind of weird but I have seen it a few times myself...does not effect the grouping or bore protection at all .. At least as far as I have seen

heating the bullets to about 120 degrees will help coverage just don't go overboard ..150+ degrees and you will get powder instantly melting to the bullets and then get clumps

PS.. and yes I started another sales thread with Flat Black on special.. 2 notations that it is for spraying only ..
got 70 lbs of this stuff to move :(

yep I got the email notification thank you very much . wit all the feedback on the ASBB and your powder I am still looking forward to trying this.
. yeah I saw the other thread too. bummer you had to do that.