Where to find design specs?

[GoodOlBoy]

What is a good source of design specs for traditional muzzleloaders? IE If I want the measurements of the lock parts of a Kentucky flinter, where the heck would you find that information? How about the measurements of the parts of a St Louis Hawken's double set triggers? The more I try to get that sort of information out of google, the more I realize how much mutual hatred google and I have for each other. Is there even a good book on the subject? The couple of books I have ordered and/or read all mention every part and piece by name but they could care less if the lock plate is fifteen feet long or four inches so far as that info goes.

Thanks

GoodOlBoy

[StrawHat]

Since the originals were hand made or at least hand fitted, any dimensions would likely be an average.

Maybe the easiest way would be to buy a good lock and trigger to measure. I am not aware of any dimensioned drawigns except maybe in the hands of the manufacturers.

[Nobade]

One thing that is handy is the Track of the Wolf catalog prints all their locks in actual size. Otherwise I am not aware of anything like that but I bet there are others.

-Nobade

[johnson1942]

norbade is right, get the track of the wolf catalog and their your are. pictures of the same size that they are. i also wonder if taylor who posts here now and then has what you need. he is a professional gun smith and is very skilled. norm johnson at turtle lake n. dak. is a gunsmith that may have what you need also. he is very good at makeing flatsprings.

[bedbugbilly]

TOW's catalog shows items full size which is very helpful. As far as fully dimensioned . . . that may be a hard thing to find? TOW does sell full size plans - example would be the 1803 Harpers Ferry - you'd have to consider the dimensions as "general" and then go from there utilizing what is available as far as parts - i.e. locks, furniture, barrel. Short of having the original right there on your bench and being able to take measurements, it's probably going to be hard to determine just what an "original" measures.

If you are going to use modern made parts - bear in mind that some items made by different people may vary in dimensions. Example: I have accumulated parts/pieces to make a 1803 Harpers Ferry. I purchased the buttplate and trigger guard from a gentleman at Friendship a number of years ago who specialized in brass castings. His were made using an original as a pattern. Since originals often varied, his were just a tad different than what TOW was selling. Those things all depend on what the person used for measurements to make their copies.

In the end, since many of the various rifles, smoothbores, etc.were "individual hand made" guns, the maker utilized what they had. No different than what we do today - if we have a piece of material that will work, we use it. I once had the opportunity to look and study two different half-stock rifles made by the same gunsmith. Side by side - they were very very close. The locks were purchased Golchers and it appeared that the barrels were purchased as well. The only "difference" that I could see was the variance in the toe plates. The guns were iron trimmed but one had a very simple square end toe plate that was around seven inches in length - the other one had the same type of toe plate but was only about four inches in length. My conclusion was that the maker probably used what he had on hand since the main purpose of the toe plate was to help brevet the toe of the stock from damage.

[GoodOlBoy]

I probably should have said that I understood the measurements would be "in general" or "on average", but I do appreciate all the info. Heck at least it gives me some place else to look. Mainly I want to tinker. I have time on my hands right now (Can't get it off even with orange goop), and since my hands are in such bad shape the Dr's want me to try to do a bit of work with them each day. I figured as much scrap metal as I have around I could try making a few mock ups in approx size by hand. i know it will be a LONG draw out task, but like I said time I have, money I don't.

Thanks guys I really do appreciate it!

GoodOlBoy

[Omnivore]

You can order actual size (1:1 scale) plans for various guns from Track. They aren't fully spec'ed out the way a CNC programmer would need, but you can measure the images and get well into the "normal" range of things. I have a late Hawken caplock plan sheet from Track, and although Hawkens were made in various calibers with several detail variations here and there, it's "in spec" as far as being a realistic general representation. I'm just reiterating what's been said here already though.

If you haven't built a gun before you might consider getting a kit from Track. Depending on the kit, there may be several raw castings (fresh out of the sand or the plaster with no finish work) and the stock may or may not have any pre-inletting done on it. Once you've cleaned those up and fit them you'll feel a bit like you've built the thing from scratch, only it's easier and faster. Once you've built from such a kit you'll be in a much better position to go from "what's lying around" to build a gun.

[GoodOlBoy]

Wish I had the budget to buy a kit. Right now I have files, saws, drills, and scrap metal. Dr bills are starting to eat me up a bit since I am STILL fighting SS Disability. Heck I will probably have to turn some of the good deals I have gotten out of S&S around and try to sell them for what I have into them just to have a bit more cash (not trying to make a profit, I just didn't see this latest round of bills coming). Things ain't dire yet, but dangit they could get that way quick. Anyway again thanks for the info.

GoodOlBoy

[starmac]

Just curious, are you planning on building, or I guess carving a stock too?

[GoodOlBoy]

Eventually, assuming my tinkering doesn't result in nothing but more scrap metal :p I, however, am not completely insane. Should the project work out (really just doing something with my hands is the main payoff) then I will buy a barrel. I have done blacksmithing off and on, but I am not so far gone that I believe I can pull off a barrel at this time. :p Man has got to know his limits. Know-what-I-mean?

GoodOlBoy

[keydet15]

I would suggest "The Gunsmith of Grenville: Building the American Long Rifle" by Peter Alexander and to go check out the American Longrifle forums

[doc1876]

I will look into my information stash when I get back. ( note to self).

[StolzerandSons]

GoodOlBoy,
PM or email me your address and I'll send you a copy of my book(Building Muzzleloaders From Materials - Volume I "The Lock") for free.

Link to an independent review of my book: http://firearmsdesigner.com/?p=77

Colin

[GoodOlBoy]

I appreciate it so much guys! Sorry I am slow to respond these days. I have basically just slept for the most part since my last post. I got to work at my bench a hour or so today. It was sheer pain, and sheer pleasure all at once :p

Thanks

GoodOlBoy

[Col4570]

GoodOLBoy,your ambition to build a Lock and Parts will get you on the road to recovery.Make Cardboard Patterns,glue them to Mild Steel Plate,using Hacksaw and files shape around the patterns.For Hammers,Frizens,cocks etc,drill at certain points then cut to the holes.this is how I make my parts.Springs can be made from old leaf springs softened shaped and bent under heat then quenched to glass hard then just burn off the oil 3 times as follows,Heat to cherry red,quench in engine oil,burn off the oil,quench,burn off the oil,quench,burn off the oil,quench and allow to cool off in the oil.Good luck with your quest.

[Texantothecore]

Giving me some ideas.

[GoodOlBoy]

Just from what I have been looking through and thinking on it seems to me hammers are probably going to be the hardest part for me up front. I dunno though. It certainly has started taking up alot of my thinking lately.

GoodOlBoy

[StolzerandSons]

Book was sent USPS this morning, if you don't get it end of the week/first part of next week please let me know so I can see what happened to it.

I included my phone/email and address, so if you have any questions or I can help feel free to get in touch.

Colin

[GoodOlBoy]

Colin I appreciate it much!

Richard

[Nobade]

Colin, thanks for mentioning your book. I had been meaning to get one since it first became available. Just ordered one last night. That is very generous of you to send one to GoodOlBoy!

-Nobade

[GoodOlBoy]

Yes it is, very generous indeed!

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Colin you book is amazing. I can't thank you enough for your generosity!

Richard

[StolzerandSons]

Thank you for the compliment, I'm not much of a writer. No problem, I get them for authors cost. I hope it helps you.

Colin