Lube for lee sizers, and order of operations for hardening, sizing, etc.

[Forgetful]

Primarily I want an answer for whether I should continue using a moly spray for sizing. The stuff I have is made by a local company, and it is a Molybdenum Disulfide spray liquid (to be used as a dry grease) suspended in some kind of solvent and pressurized. I literally spray the boolits in a plastic container and roll them around until they're coated, and then dry quick with a blowdryer. They go in the sizer and are GC'd. There doesn't seem to be any lead fouling in the sizer but I haven't tried to clean them out (.510 and .308). The driving bands come out shiny with their moly coat! The reason I did it this way was because I wanted to harden them after sizing without having to bake alox on them. I also wanted to tumble them with steel shot in moly (impact method) before tumbling them in the liquid alox. Seems like a lot of steps but the order of things might be wrong, but here goes:

1) cast boolits
2) wash in solvent to remove skin oils (not required when spray contains solvent, I figured out)
3) spray with moly dry grease, let dry
4) GC and size
5) bake to harden and quench
6) spray with moly dry grease again
7) moly impact method
8) tumble in liquid alox
9) sizer again to get the alox in the grooves and off the driving bands
10) load and shoot

Advice?

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't do all that.....cast 'em hard and run them through a Star sizer...........done!

[Garyshome]

Keep it simple!

[Bzcraig]

I don't think he has a Star sizer since he didn't mention it. Garyshome is right keep it simple you will save time and money. If alox/xlox is your lube of choice then tumble lube, let dry, size, tumble lube again, let dry, load, shoot and repeat!

[dromia]

Cast them.

Inspect and cull.

I use softish boolits 12 BHN for most applications under 1800 fps so no need to worry about hardening.

Tumble lube in 45-45-10.

Seat gas check if used.

Size if necessary.

If sized re-tumble in 45-45-10.

Load and shoot.

Why do you want them hard? if you are using alox then you can't be driving them fast so why the desire for hardening?

[Forgetful]

if you are using alox then you can't be driving them fast so why the desire for hardening?

Trying to overcome the alox problem with moly.
Need to be very hard for 48000 cups. Aiming for 30 BHN minimum. 48000 works out to 37 BHN for obturation.

I'm using a lee sizer.

So I should re-tumble after sizing? The sizer seemed to like the moly as sizing lube.. Should I use the sizer to get the alox in the bands or just tumble? I don't have micro bands. I haven't hardened them yet. Wanted to size before hardening, needed to lube before sizing, didn't want to wash the alox off for baking if used as sizing lube, need to be hardened first for impact treatment, need to be clean for moly coat. Trying to save steps but keep the moly in the process.

[DrCaveman]

You may not need the full lubrication properties of the moly lube in order to run the boolots through the sizer

Ive used three different lubes in the past two weeks for 'initial' sizing which was just for gas check seating. They were:
-stp oil treatment, just a tiny tiny bit swirled around in a bowl with 30 boolits
-rem oil, same bowl swirl method but a bit more quantity than stp
-wd-40, as per ranch dog method (i think)

All were subsequently dip lubed and set to dry, with no lube adhesion issues. I did try to get a bit of the excess 'sizing lube' off the boolits with a rag prior to dipping, but nothing anal

I also think that the lubes i mention would be ok for the baking and hardening.. .might smoke a bit, but i doubt anything terrible would result...might want to hear other opinions about this

Why not water drop while you are casting? I used to be afraid that sizing would soften my boolits...or rather, expose the soft innards of the boolit. My last few BHN tests have shown this to not be the case

[Beagle333]

9) sizer again to get the alox in the grooves and off the driving bands


This step confuses me. Why do you want the Alox in the grooves and not on the driving bands? :confused: Is it because you put the moly on? (Never used moly)

[dromia]

What velocities are you wanting to shoot at and in what rifles?

You don't want hard for high (jacketed) velocities but you do want tough and malleable and BHN isn't a good measure of this.

My high velocity cast boolit rounds are around 22BHN but copper enriched they are plenty good for my 1000 303 loads which are at a similar pressure.

Have you been reading the Lee book by any chance?

[runfiverun]

has to be.


look I think you are confused and are making this difficult at best and are gonna make things worse later.
shooting cast boolits is pretty simple.
you either moly coat and don't add anything else or you don't.
banging your boolits around in a tumbler is just going to ruin them.

you need to outline your goals and then do some more reading on how to achieve them.
the search function here works pretty dang good and has answered a couple of questions for me recently.

[Forgetful]

This step confuses me. Why do you want the Alox in the grooves and not on the driving bands? :confused: Is it because you put the moly on? (Never used moly)

The grooves are supposed to pump the alox, or so I thought.



What velocities are you wanting to shoot at and in what rifles?

30-06 and 50 BMG. Pressures and velocities are identical. I'm not expecting to be able to get max velocity, but hopefully upwards of 2500fps. 30 BHN for 2500fps is about right. But I want more!



you either moly coat and don't add anything else or you don't.
banging your boolits around in a tumbler is just going to ruin them.

Lee tumble alox. Not a tumbler, just a plastic bowl. I'm pretty sure I need the alox to get the bore seal. I'll be mixing some moly into the alox as well. Believe me I've researched the heck out of this and this seems to be my current path. Hopefully I figure out a process that yields tighter groups at higher velocities. This is the ultimate goal. I'm not in it just to shoot.

When they're hardened for impact plating, they'll be too hard to be ruined in the shaker. The shaker will be where they are impact plated.

[Geezer in NH]

I thought Moly Lube has run it's course in the shooting sports?? It makes more problems than it solves.

When I was selling barrels, a company sucked me in on their bore treatments but funded only to a few hundred rounds. later after a couple of K of shots it became an accuracy destroying agent. I got court action against me for stating the fact until the bore treatment owner was sent to jail for fraud on other maters with his business. .

[williamwaco]

Yikes!

That is serious overkill.

1) cast boolits
2) wash in solvent to remove skin oils (not required when spray contains solvent, I figured out)
3) spray with moly dry grease, let dry
4) GC and size
5) bake to harden and quench
6) spray with moly dry grease again
7) moly impact method
8) tumble in liquid alox
9) sizer again to get the alox in the grooves and off the driving bands
10) load and shoot


OMIT these steps.
None of it is necessary.

ESPECIALLY NUMBER 9! The lube is supposed to be on the driving bands NOT in the grooves. This is seriously bad practice.

There seems to be some question about what is meant by "tumble". Lee says to swirl them around in an ice cream container. That is a nightmare. I fill a one quart zip lock bag half full and add about one half teaspoon of LLA or Xlox. Then tumble them back and forth in the bag. The lube never touches your hands.

PS: Don't dilute the LLA. It works and lots of people do it but I tried it and find it much more trouble.

[DrCaveman]

Moly impact method?

'tumble with steel shot'. What is this step, why are you doing it? Never heard reference to it before. I agree, you are making things very complicated. It doesnt seem like anyone reading this thread is a proponent of the technique either. What's wrong with water dropping (as i mentioned before) and using a high quality commercial or homebrewed lube? Or even paper patching? The hi vel guys seem to love the paper patch

[centershot]

If a lubricant was truly needed for the initial sizing (before tumble-lubing) wouldn't something like Hornady One-Shot case lube work? Spray on, let dry, size boolits!

[Forgetful]

Steel shot will impact the MoS2 into the hardened lead. I guess I won't be sizing after lubing. I've read bad thing about moly but there were great things when used *in* the alox. Some of the other bad things I read about moly gave me the impression they weren't using it properly, they were merely coating the bullet loosely. My intention to impact with steel shot in my tumbler (shaker) is to polish the bullets smooth, as well as to reduce the air friction. I want the alox to lube the barrel, not the moly. But I want the moly in the alox to further mitigate lead fouling at higher pressures, since it has temperature resistance properties.

Alox (LLA) goes on via hand-tumbling.

I sized with moly instead of case lube or alox so that they would be "clean" for hardening and impact treatment, so I wouldn't have to wash off alox with solvent.

I'm a little confused now. I was told I need to alox before running them through the sizer, and then load. Unlubed bullets in the sizer will cause lead fouling in the sizer, won't it? All the images of cast bullets I see have wax/alox in the grooves coming out of the sizer, with hardly any on the driving bands. And here I'm told it should be on the bands and not in the grooves? These are for high power rifles (30-06 and 50BMG).

Yes it is a lot of unnecessary steps, but these are the steps I've decided I want to try. So if I'm keeping the moly in the process, do I have the correct order of steps?

Also since I'm north of the border, the moment you cross over, the temperature drops from 72F to 22C! I may decide to add a little lanolin to the LLA or come up with a blend that works well this winter. I have a large block of beeswax for these recipes.

[williamwaco]

Steel shot will impact the MoS2 into the hardened lead. I guess I won't be sizing after lubing. I've read bad thing about moly but there were great things when used *in* the alox. Some of the other bad things I read about moly gave me the impression they weren't using it properly, they were merely coating the bullet loosely. My intention to impact with steel shot in my tumbler (shaker) is to polish the bullets smooth, as well as to reduce the air friction. I want the alox to lube the barrel, not the moly. But I want the moly in the alox to further mitigate lead fouling at higher pressures, since it has temperature resistance properties.

Alox (LLA) goes on via hand-tumbling.

I sized with moly instead of case lube or alox so that they would be "clean" for hardening and impact treatment, so I wouldn't have to wash off alox with solvent.

I'm a little confused now. I was told I need to alox before running them through the sizer, ( Often recommended but NOT necessary) and then load. Unlubed bullets in the sizer will cause lead fouling in the sizer, won't it? ( NO it will not. I do it every day and have sized well over 100,000 bullets in my .358 Lee die.) All the images of cast bullets I see have wax/alox in the grooves coming out of the sizer, with hardly any on the driving bands. (These photos are conventional dies with coventional lube - NOT Lee Dies ) And here I'm told it should be on the bands and not in the grooves? These are for high power rifles (30-06 and 50BMG).

Yes it is a lot of unnecessary steps, but these are the steps I've decided I want to try. ( Go for it ) So if I'm keeping the moly in the process, do I have the correct order of steps? ( You are going to have to figure this out for yourself - I guarantee that nobody on this site has ever tried what you are suggesting )

Also since I'm north of the border, the moment you cross over, the temperature drops from 72F to 22C! I may decide to add a little lanolin to the LLA or come up with a blend that works well this winter. I have a large block of beeswax for these recipes. ( Do NOT add anything to the LLA unless you want to try 45/45/10 or 50/50)



See replies above.

Also, If bullets are very hard and or oversized and are hard to push through the sizer. you can use a dab of case lube on the tip of a finger and lightly touch each fifth bullet before sizing. It is NOT necessary to wash this case lube off after sizing.

I rarely disagree with runfiverun but here I am going to. I don't think you need to do any more reading. I think you have done way too much reading already and are combining and mixing methods in inappropriate ways.


Remember: Millions of shooters, reloaded and fired billions of rounds of various calibers of ammunition successfully and accurately, before any of this stuff ever existed.

[DrCaveman]

The reason you see photos of boolits coming out of the sizer with clean driving bands is probably because the sizer removed the lube as it was squeezing the largest parts of the boolit; namely, the driving bands.
That is why Lee recommends to coat once before sizing, and once after sizing. Or, just coat once, and totally skip sizing. The TL boolits (tiny lube grooves) seem to work OK without sizing, but i still get better results with consistent boolits that have been run through a sizer

Well, it sounds like you are trying something new, and i hope it works out well. Maybe you are on track to find a new great way to shoot jacketed speed & pressure cast boolits. Good luck, please post accuracy results!

I still am in the camp who advise using a simpler lube for the sizing...like williamwaco says, just a dab every few boolits will keep the die from leading up, and may not require cleaning afterward.

Or, did i mention, water dropping from the mold to avoid the problem? I fail to see how this rocks your plans in any way. Maybe im missing something

[Recluse]

Need to be very hard for 48000 cups. Aiming for 30 BHN minimum. 48000 works out to 37 BHN for obturation.


I don't think you're going to get full obturation at 37BHN no matter what you do. Way too hard. To get obturation at that BHN, you're ALSO going to start sloughing off a lot of lead on the trailing edge of the boolit.

Overall, BHN is vastly overrated and is a numerical guestimate for the huge majority of boolit-casters. Furthermore, accuracy and consistency of BHN will vary from one testing method/device to another.

Bigger concern for me would be why I would need such an astronomical BHN? If I ever need a projectile with that kind of hardness, I'll use jacketed projectiles.

:coffee:

[btroj]

You say you "researched the heck out of this", where did this research occur? What sources lead you to believing moly spray was required, beneficial, or even appropriate for use before using a Lee push thru sizer?

My suggestion be to use 45/45/10, ignore the moly, and go shoot! Cast, load, and shoot more, research less. You will be amazed at what first hand observations will do. Your guns and targets will tell you what they like, listen to them for nothing else matters

[dromia]

Need to be very hard for 48000 cups. Aiming for 30 BHN minimum. 48000 works out to 37 BHN for obturation.




What on earth makes you think that?

BHN is only part of the velocity criteria and a relatively small part at that.

Where are you getting your misguided information from?

It seems to me that you are building your loads an very shaky knowledge foundation.

[Forgetful]

What on earth makes you think that?

BHN is only part of the velocity criteria and a relatively small part at that.

Where are you getting your misguided information from?

It seems to me that you are building your loads an very shaky knowledge foundation.

MO Bullet says to compute BHN this way: CUPS/1279.8=BHN.

.30-06 and 50BMG are both 48,000 CUPS.

Very shaky indeed. Not like we need to take obturation into account, right? Certainly not to some shaky beginner.



My suggestion be to use 45/45/10, ignore the moly, and go shoot!

Moly is going in the lube for pushing rifle velocities. Pistols don't need the moly at all, nor calibers such as 45-70.

I don't want to shoot jacketed projectiles. I do want to follow people's advice, no matter how conflicting it is. If it's too hard to obturate, I won't get the velocity because the pressure will bleed. If I get the velocity, it'll have lead sloughing off.. I really need to find the magic zone where it obturates and I get ~2500fps without sloughing. The only way I'll get there is if I combine everything I'm told and experiment in that zone.

[dromia]

Good boolit fit and concentricity to the bore.

A tough not hard alloy.

Good lube.

Slow powders.

That would be my starting point.

[wmitty]

Forgetful:

Regarding your question about running boolits thru a Lee push thru die without lube; I have done this for years with no buildup or other problems; in fact I was rather shocked when I read that lubing before sizing was required.

[MT Chambers]

I have access to lots of moly powder and tried it on all manner of different bullets, of diff. hardness, I tried tumbling it with walnut shells also with steel BBs, it offered no advantage over carnauba lube in my sizers, accuracy was not as good, and it gets everywhere and is hard to clean off.

[Jackpine]

Forgetful,

I use Alox and have always lubed before sizing, whether using a Lee push thru or a lyman lube sizer. (without lube it the sizer) I do this because that is what Lee recommends and because there are very few situations where two surfaces bear against each other under pressure that will not benefit from lube, and altho I am sure the distortion caused with a non lubed bullet is very small, I want to eliminate any possibility of un needed distortion.

That being said, the amount of lube that I apply before sizing is about 1/10 of that used after. Because you are running the bullet thru the die for one inch and very low speed, vs down a two foot barrel at MUCH higher speed, it just logical that much less is needed. If I am doing large batches, I use Alox diluted half and half with mineral spirits and apply in a Zip lock bag. Yesterday I was going to size 20 bullets for a specific trial I am doing and I simply applied it by putting the lube on thumb and forefinger and rolling the bullets. I used no more than three drops for the twenty bullets, with half of that ending up staying on my fingers. I probably use much less lube for the final lubing than most people. I warm the lube and apply 1 1/2 drops for a 150 grain bullet up to 5 drops per bullet for a 530 grain bullet, measured in a teaspoon. (I have determined how many drops there are per teaspoon. I could probably get by with the "squirt in a guessed amount, but believe consistency is important with all reloading steps) I think with the small amount the zip lock bag does a more even job of applying the lube than a tub. All of my loads chrono between 1000 and 1600 fps. I hate cleaning guns and don't do it very often, but have never found leading in any of my guns.

One more point about lubing before sizing. I know people use lots of different lubes to prelube, such as Pam, WD-40, Remoil, that spray on or just go on more quickly. I have thought about doing this, but have wondered whether having a lube of a different type under the final Alox application could have some impact on the consistency or change the lubricity of the Alox, so I have chosen to just stay with the diluted Alox.

Good luck with your quest. Keep in mind that free advice is usually worth what you pay for it, sometimes less and don't be afraid to ask for backup of opinions and then apply some past experience and common sense.

Jackpine

[Forgetful]

Well, they look great with their impact coating, shiny and polished. It's nice I didn't have to wash off lube at any point, and I didn't make a mess at any time. The sizers for pistols don't need lube, but you do for rifle calibers. The moly spray did a great job lubing for the sizer, let me explain. I could lube 300 bullets in about 10 seconds, and the MoS2 seems to stick to lead much better than anything else. After the shaker/tumbler polishing, all the moly comes off the copper-plated steel BB's as well as off the inside of the bottles I'm using, to stick to the lead. There is no moly in the sizer after doing a Q-Tip check.

Again, I intend to be pushing 2250fps as a minimum in both calibers. I'm finally going to be loading the brass today after prepping it all. After uniforming the primer pockets, flash holes, neck length, chamfer, polishing, and sorting.. I'm going to have a few more steps for the boolits than simply "drop in water, lube and load." I have to consider if some of this advice is better suited for pistols only.

Johnson's Paste Wax is unavailable where I live, but I substituted another brand of floor-wax paste (carnauba based) and that took the tackiness out of the pure alox and seems to have the same effect. Thanks for everyone's help in getting this sorted out. I still have to expand the necks and measure loads and press it all together, but shooting these should be just around the corner. Will be using a "ProChrono" for velocities and hopefully have a nice afternoon taking slow groups and recording all the data. What a journey! No wonder its considered addictive! If you don't have OCD before, you will!

[facetious]

I have used dri-lube spray on boolits before sizing in Lee's push through dies. Thy go through slick as can be and so slick that you can't hardly hold on to them after words. I size them soon after casting and water dropping them while thy are still soft and not age hardened yet and then lube them in the lube sizer as I need them.

I have been told that I should not use use dri-lube on them but have never heard a good reason why. Thy get lubed over in the lube sizer so the dri-lube is covered up by the lube. has any one else heard of this?

[Forgetful]

I have been told that I should not use use dri-lube on them but have never heard a good reason why. Thy get lubed over in the lube sizer so the dri-lube is covered up by the lube. has any one else heard of this?

I've heard that, but it only applied to *only* using dry-lube as your bullet lube, or moly-plated jacketed bullets. Something about the moly embedding in the bore and the sulfide reacting with the iron.

Moly in the lube is a good thing. Lubed moly-plated bullets, the lube doesn't care. Moly-coated bullets (not plated) will shed lube since it's like lubing a powder-coated bullet without the bake cycle to make it stick.

[Pinsnscrews]

Forgetful, in the Castboolit section, there is a Thread Discussion on High Velocity shooting with Cast boolits. On Page 10 of that discussion is a LONG post #183. You can read that specific post or not, but what is of value here is the Photos of the Pressure Sessions. Just so you can see what the Pressures come out to as well as the Velocity of the rounds from Ohler Equipment. ALL of the boolits used in that session were
As you mentioned the BHN of Larry’s #2 alloy WQ’d NOE XCB bullets is 21. That alloy and that bullet when properly sized at .311 and lubed with 2500+ provides less than 2 moa accuracy to 2700+ fps so far. That has been out of my Palma rifle in .308W with a 14” twist 27.6” long barrel.

Now SAAMI lists the 30-06 at 600MAP and the 308W at 620MAP

So, I think that it is safe to say that it is not necessary to work on a BHN of 30 when you have actual pressure and velocity readings for a BHN of 21 at over 2500+fps out of a .308W

I put in bold in the Quote just to highlight the information and not as a method of shouting.