Need some experience on 303 Loads

[Kevinakaq]

Gentlemen,

I am still laughing at my results this morning with paper patching. Let me disclaim by saying I firmly believe that paper patching can, and will, provide great results and am in fine spirits so please read on with that knowledge.

I had not paper patched until a week ago and this represents my second attempt. Results are dismal, nay laughable at this time. It is a good natured laugh though and I am smiling about it. I shot groups this morning (five 3 shot groups) at 50 yards. If any two shots were within six inches of the other I would be surprised. I could have got a tighter pattern with 00 buck. Groups in the 12-18 inch range. Just to make sure the rifle was not at fault I did shoot a few SST rounds (41 gr. IMR 4064 pushing 150 gr .311 Hornady SST) I made and use in my other Enfield for deer hunting. Three shot group approximately 1.5 inch and surrounding the bull. Was firing from a bench, sandbag, open sights. I did try cast (Lee 312-185) in this rifle a couple weeks ago and got 'edit: decent' results. I then slugged barrel and decided I needed to pp up to get a better fit.

Particulars below.

Rifle - 1941 SMLE Mk. III "Lithgow", Bubba got hold of it but metal is all original and unmolested.
Dimensions - Slugged barrel and came up with .315 (Cerrosafe arriving later in the week).
Bullet - COWW Lead, Lee 309-180 at .3095, wrapped twice with lined paper wet with water, 60 degree ends - no overlap with a twist on base then trimmed, lubed with Lee Sizing lube and sized in a push through to .3155. Maybe I need to hone out a bit more on the sizing die, but will wait for the Cerrosafe casting to get more exact results.
Brass - PRIVI (twice fired, neck sized), Used Lyman 31R M die which gives about .310 ID on the brass.
Powder - 14 grains Unique, no filler (Dacron incoming later in week but didn't think I should use it anyway with fast burning powder?)
Primer - WLR
OAL - 2.914 (kissing rifling), no crimp

After investigating the barrel after my first pp experience last Friday I did notice a slight amount of leading towards muzzle end. I deduced (maybe improperly) that this meant the paper was coming loose inside the barrel. I experimented with wrapping the paper further past the ogive. Not sure if barrel leaded today. Will run a patch through in a few and take a look. (EDIT: just put the bore light up to it and don't see any leading in the barrel this time...) The five groups represented different wrappings, etc. All same powder load of 14 gr Unique. The barrel is a bit rough, but not as bad as I have seen. I did lightly lap with some clover leaf when I first got the rifle a month ago to smooth it out a bit. Maybe I should try to fire lap it a few shots but I don't think it is that bad...

One of the loads from my first test last Friday (oal was 2.866, and had a very slight roll crimp, crimp was completely adjusted out for second round of tests):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-09-11%2011.53.30.jpg

EDIT: Just took a pic of the bore and maybe it is worse than I thought...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-09-16%2013.17.39.jpg

I have read over the last couple weeks virtually every relating post in this forum, so not lazy, just looking for a few ideas before proceeding. Besides I found it humorous and thought I would share!

Thoughts and suggestions gentlemen on my next attempt?

Many thanks for any and all advice,
Kevin

[Hardcast416taylor]

Kevin, You didn`t learn to walk at first attempt, nor did you learn to drive a vehicle on a road the very first try either. So PP on a bullet is another thing you just need to keep on trying to make better things. When I started PP boolets I made enough "Giggle" looking boolets to make a boolet version of a "Mummy" movie for as terribly wrinkled as they were. I just kept trying and eventually they started to look more like they should. The paper wrap should be just over the bullet nose ogive so it will be engaged on the rifling. Have you slugged the barrel to see what your bore is? You may need a fatter dia. boolet. Just don`t throw your hands up in despair and quit!Robert

[Kevinakaq]

No offense intended but did you read my post? I am far from upset, and smiling about it all. I realize it takes some work, was just looking for advice on next try. Bullets not wrinkled and paper very tight. As stated in post I am aware of the ogive and wrapped several differently with some farther onto the nose of the bullet and tested. I did slug that barrel as stated in the post and it was .315. Not my first picnic, but my first attempts at paper patching. I do believe the roughness of the barrel is shredding my patches at this point...may be mistaken but seems to be direction I am leaning.

Not trying to be rude at all honestly but just looking for some ideas moving forward. Don't need a pick me up or pat on the back...i'm a big boy.

Kevin

Kevin, You didn`t learn to walk at first attempt, nor did you learn to drive a vehicle on a road the very first try either. So PP on a bullet is another thing you just need to keep on trying to make better things. When I started PP boolets I made enough "Giggle" looking boolets to make a boolet version of a "Mummy" movie for as terribly wrinkled as they were. I just kept trying and eventually they started to look more like they should. The paper wrap should be just over the bullet nose ogive so it will be engaged on the rifling. Have you slugged the barrel to see what your bore is? You may need a fatter dia. boolet. Just don`t throw your hands up in despair and quit!Robert

[grullaguy]

It occurs to me that your patches may be loosening in the sizing process. The lead will squeeze down leaving a loose paper patch.

I would recommend sizing your bullets to .306" and then just sizing down your patched bullets the .005" your die is lapped to.

I tried the same thing as you with my Lithgow and had similar results until I had a .304" sizing die made. My bore slugged at .314 (groove)

By rights, I should have had the bullet sizing die made to .305"

[Kevinakaq]

I would be surprised if the paper was loosening during the sizing process (using a Lee push through honed to .3155 and gently lubing with Lee Sizing Lube). Bullet wrapped, before running through the sizing die is right at .318 diameter or so. Trying to remember it exactly (will make up some more and let dry and measure to double check). Paper is about .0025 so with a double wrap and a .3095 bullet I should end up around .319.

While I was checking headspace I used one of the sized pp bullets and put it in a brass fired casing and chambered it to get a headspace reading. I must have done this ten times and the paper never frayed or unraveled on the single bullet I reused. Paper seems very tight and solid. I even unwrapped quite a few and they seemed quite tight. Not saying I couldn't be wrong by a far shot...lost count of the number of times I have been wrong but rather just stating why I 'believe' the paper is sufficiently tight.

I appreciate the reply and will check everything mentioned again. It's a hunt to get it right!


It occurs to me that your patches may be loosening in the sizing process. The lead will squeeze down leaving a loose paper patch.

I would recommend sizing your bullets to .306" and then just sizing down your patched bullets the .005" your die is lapped to.

I tried the same thing as you with my Lithgow and had similar results until I had a .304" sizing die made. My bore slugged at .314 (groove)

By rights, I should have had the bullet sizing die made to .305"

[docone31]

.317, and up the charge.

[Kevinakaq]

.317, and up the charge.


Can definitly see honing out the sizing die a bit more. I stopped at .3155 because it is easy to make it larger if i needed to, hard to reduce....was a .314 as purchased. Another member pm'd me and recommended i switch over to my 4064 and use loads similiar to my jacketted. Sound logic indeed and definitly worth testing.

my thanks.

[Dan Cash]

Agree, make the wrapped bullet larger.
Suggestions:
1. Use .002 tracing paper, it is tougher.
2. Loose the crimp.
3. Slower powder is better; charge for jacketed velocity.
4. Do not size the bullet after patching. The bore will do it just fine.

Your bore looks good from looking at your muzzle picture.

[docone31]

Rather than hone a sizing die, size the primary casting to .309, then wet wrap with notebook paper, or computer paper. Let dry. The size should be .317.The bores were generous with the Smellys mine is very happy with .317, but with a full tilt load of 4895. At .315, at 100yds I would make 20' groups. At .317, I would do 1". Size makes a difference.

[caseyboy]

I would try without sizing the paper patch. Just finger lube and seat. No crimp. What does the inside neck diameter measure on a fired case?
caseyboy

[caseyboy]

Thinking about it a bit more, it could be that the nose of your core is quite undersized compared to the bore and you are not getting a clean release of the paper from the nose section of the core. A general rule of thumb is that you want the core to be 0.001" over bore so that you get good engraving and paper slicing on the lands. What were the resulting paper pieces like after your shots? Small pieces, or large flakes. The undersized nose is also not fully supported so therefore slumps unsetting accuracy. Food for thought.
caseyboy

[Kevinakaq]

I would try without sizing the paper patch. Just finger lube and seat. No crimp. What does the inside neck diameter measure on a fired case?
caseyboy

I am guessing ballpark 315 as I can push with minimal pressure a sized pp bullet into the neck and it maintains some tension. Did this when getting an idea of headspace. I guess I will need to make up a Hornady modified case up tomorrow as well and do it right. Will also get the vernier ball micrometer and take some brass thickness measurements tomorrow and subtract from the od and come up with the exact as fired id. I have read that some load without sizing the brass at all and considered this. With this rifle though for some reason it is getting tight on closing after neck sizing only once... On my Longbranch I neck size quite a few times before feeling the need to FL, but don't think I can put it off as long on this rifle.

I think for my next round of tests I will hone out my push through to .317 and size six or so lubed bullets. I will also leave the same amount lubed and unsized and load both sets with a slow burning powder of some sort at low end jacketed velocites. I have twenty pp bullets drying right now and will try to test a bit tomorrow if it doesnt rain. Lots of other possibilities, but i want to work this through one step (maybe two max...lol) at a time and not change everything at once.

As for sizing before to 309 i like that idea but I dont have a 309 push through sizer, though i do have a 310 for my lubrasizer. If my next round of test show no promise i might try that as it requires an investment and a waiting period. Will also get some tracing paper incoming to have on hand.

Appreciate the thoughts gents.

[303Guy]

That bore looks pretty decent. If I could take a good snap shot of my rifle bore you would see a 'real' bore.:mrgreen: Perhaps one or two fire-lapping boolits (or not) using fine abrasive (400 or finer) and you'd be good to go. I've found that paper patching likes 'rust textured' bores. You may find that lower pressure and velocity is best although I have pushed 194 gr patched boolits to 2018 fps from a 14.6" barrel. Accuracy was not great though, possibly because the alloy was too soft. No leading!

Something to consider with a bore like is that the rifling edges are not sharp so the patch behaves a bit differently in that it does not get sliced by the rifling. If I can get photobucket to work for me I'll find pics of patch performance in bores like or worse than yours. I have one just like yours.

I'm a little surprised that you find hard closing on cases neck sized only for a few firings. I'd lose that Unique. Something like H4227 and slower works well. I've used H4350 for reduced loads with a filler (not going below 60% case volume).

My very first attempt at paper patching was with a very good bore 303. I did manage to keep all fired shots on a very large piece of cardboard at 185m. The second attempt with the same rifle put four of the five shots in a very comfortable kill zone (not bug hole) with the one flyer. I've spent more effort with my pig gun (the shorty) and a Martini carbine barrelled LE MkI. The latter was pretty damn accurate with its very worn bore and loose barrel and 18th century sights.

P.S. Paper patching rocks!

[Kevinakaq]

Thoughts on a slow burn powder for this test? I have several available and will load up in an hour or so. To be honest the type of powder probably will not make a difference at this stage in the game as the groups I'm trying to shrink are huge, but thought I would see if there is a favorite.

Varget, IMR 4064, IMR 4831, IMR 3031, IMR 4895, IMR 4350

Oh and think I will test these without resizing. Tested a few pieces of brass out of the tumbler and they have enough neck tension and will chamber.

[docone31]

Varget, 4064, 4895. Use start load data for jacketed loads. No crimp.

[Kevinakaq]

Thanks docone

[Harter66]

Another point I didn't see mentioned is that it may take quite a few rounds to get the bbl and patch talking. I had a 762-39 it took 100 rounds of this and that .....in disgust I went to "empty the over runs"... you know you shot 3 of the 5 and had them in opposite corners of the paper but the last rung shot into 10". And low and behold 1 of the loads I had started w/shot a 3x5 group . That tickled me for several reasons 1 being that it actually used that fast twist to its fullest and 2 it was a better group than it had shot w/the factory stuff I had emptied for brass.

[Kevinakaq]

Well i just shot about eight rounds or so as a quick test. Casings were unsized and bullets unsized/lubed and pushed into the neck and allowed to seat when closing the action. Read good things about this. Powder was 36.1 grains Varget. Same results though at 35 yards. I am 95 percent shredding/atomizing as I can find no remnants at all. Looked amongst the smoke after each shot and saw no particles. Looked around and saw no strips etc. Severe leading at last seven inches or so of barrel.

Still smiling about it and consider it a challenge and a work in progress. I may size a few using the same dimensions and test out in my Longbranch which has a much better bore (will size because it because bore is much tighter... .312). That will let me know at least if my load is gtg. Can't hurt to test it. Oh and I am enjoying the effort immensely.

Onward and upward!

EDIT - I did shoot a group of cast as well and they were about a one inch group. I was firing fairly fast though so that could have been me a bit. Fired this five shot group last. Not sure if leading is from this group or the earlier paper patch groups...in retrospect i wish i had not shot this group.

[303Guy]

I think 36grs of Varget may be a bit hot for starting loads. The bore needs to get conditioned and until then I'd think lower loads might be better. I used H4350 for my 14.6" barrelled gun. I did find I was getting powder granule impressions on the boolit base so I tried W748 with Dacron to both position the powder and buffer the boolit base. The buffering worked well with H4227. Oh, I'm using tailless patches. I have a load with W748 of 28gr under a 208gr boolit with 1gr Dacron. Pressure was mild and patch disintegration was good. That was in a rifle with a bore like yours.

[longbow]

I haven't done a lot of PP shooting in my .303's for sure but what I did was educational. Previously I had made a mould for my .308 which cast a smooth 0.302" boolit. Patched to a little over groove diameter it shot quite well from the get go.

Later I bought a Lee Enfield and figured I would use the same mould with slightly thicker patch. No go! Very poor accuracy.

What fixed things up was knurling that smooth boolit to 0.304" (0.001" over bore diameter) and patching to groove.

I am thinking you may have the opposite problem in that your boolit is well over bore diameter to start with. Whether the sizing after patching is good or bad is a question. It seems people get away with both options but general rule of thumb is to cast/size at or just over bore diameter then patch to groove or a little over.

So, you might give that a go and see what happens.

Now getting a sizing die for 0.303"/0.304" might be a trick unless you can make one or get Buckshot or someone else to make one for you.

Another option might be to see if someone who bought the NOE Lyman PP boolit clones would send you a few to try. They would be casting undersize but knurling by rolling under a coarse file should bring diameter up enough to be bore size.

Also, while many seem to do okay with notebook paper, you might want to try something a little sturdier. The ODG's used paper with high rag content. A good bond paper with cotton or linen might do better than notebook paper.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Keep working at it and you will succeed. I am sure there will be more advice coming as well.

Longbow

[geargnasher]

That boolit is no good for what you're doing. Get something that's .305" or so from ogive to base and patch it up to fit snug in a fired case. Don't size the patch, experiment with paper and core diameter instead to make it fit. Core should be 1-3 thousandths over bore with your COWW alloy (my experience). Patch just over the ogive break and seat firm in the lands. Lube the dried patch with beeswax/Vaseline per Matthews. Continue to use medium rifle powders as you are doing, but decrease the load significantly and rebuild. Notebook paper will powder upon firing with all but the most pipsqueak loads, but that isn't necessarily an indication of patch failure. Might try a tougher paper for now as was suggested until the bore polishes in for a hundred rounds or so . For a mould, you might be time and money ahead to have Accurate Molds cut you one similar to the 30-160P but to fit your bore and throat (make a chamber/neck/throat cast), and increase the nose band diameter proportion a little as it is too small for all but the deepest rifling. Retain the lube grooves as they are, I have found them ideal for wet-patch retention to at least 2800 fps (where I stopped). Once you get that working, experiment with a compacting buffer per the stickies here or select a slower powder that will be safe at 100% density. If the crown and bedding is good, you should be able to achieve half the group size you currently get with copper-jacketed at the same velocity.

Gear

[Kevinakaq]

Gentlemen, just wanted to take a minute to say thank you for all the advice. I haven't gotten a chance to test any further since Archery Season started on Saturday and i've been living in the swamp! Also leave for Maine for a week tomorrow to do a little fly fishing at a friends camp. Never been to Maine (farthest north was fly fishing in N. Mass couple years ago) and looking forward to it.

Thanks again and when i get back hope to put some of your advice to work and get back to yas.

Kevin

[303carbine]

Gentlemen,

I am still laughing at my results this morning with paper patching. Let me disclaim by saying I firmly believe that paper patching can, and will, provide great results and am in fine spirits so please read on with that knowledge.

I had not paper patched until a week ago and this represents my second attempt. Results are dismal, nay laughable at this time. It is a good natured laugh though and I am smiling about it. I shot groups this morning (five 3 shot groups) at 50 yards. If any two shots were within six inches of the other I would be surprised. I could have got a tighter pattern with 00 buck. Groups in the 12-18 inch range. Just to make sure the rifle was not at fault I did shoot a few SST rounds (41 gr. IMR 4064 pushing 150 gr .311 Hornady SST) I made and use in my other Enfield for deer hunting. Three shot group approximately 1.5 inch and surrounding the bull. Was firing from a bench, sandbag, open sights. I did try cast (Lee 312-185) in this rifle a couple weeks ago and got 'edit: decent' results. I then slugged barrel and decided I needed to pp up to get a better fit.

Particulars below.

Rifle - 1941 SMLE Mk. III "Lithgow", Bubba got hold of it but metal is all original and unmolested.
Dimensions - Slugged barrel and came up with .315 (Cerrosafe arriving later in the week).
Bullet - COWW Lead, Lee 309-180 at .3095, wrapped twice with lined paper wet with water, 60 degree ends - no overlap with a twist on base then trimmed, lubed with Lee Sizing lube and sized in a push through to .3155. Maybe I need to hone out a bit more on the sizing die, but will wait for the Cerrosafe casting to get more exact results.
Brass - PRIVI (twice fired, neck sized), Used Lyman 31R M die which gives about .310 ID on the brass.
Powder - 14 grains Unique, no filler (Dacron incoming later in week but didn't think I should use it anyway with fast burning powder?)
Primer - WLR
OAL - 2.914 (kissing rifling), no crimp

After investigating the barrel after my first pp experience last Friday I did notice a slight amount of leading towards muzzle end. I deduced (maybe improperly) that this meant the paper was coming loose inside the barrel. I experimented with wrapping the paper further past the ogive. Not sure if barrel leaded today. Will run a patch through in a few and take a look. (EDIT: just put the bore light up to it and don't see any leading in the barrel this time...) The five groups represented different wrappings, etc. All same powder load of 14 gr Unique. The barrel is a bit rough, but not as bad as I have seen. I did lightly lap with some clover leaf when I first got the rifle a month ago to smooth it out a bit. Maybe I should try to fire lap it a few shots but I don't think it is that bad...

One of the loads from my first test last Friday (oal was 2.866, and had a very slight roll crimp, crimp was completely adjusted out for second round of tests):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-09-11%2011.53.30.jpg

EDIT: Just took a pic of the bore and maybe it is worse than I thought...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67729401/2014-09-16%2013.17.39.jpg

I have read over the last couple weeks virtually every relating post in this forum, so not lazy, just looking for a few ideas before proceeding. Besides I found it humorous and thought I would share!

Thoughts and suggestions gentlemen on my next attempt?

Many thanks for any and all advice,
Kevin

If my 303 was that large in the bore department, I would try some 8mm bullets at a lower pressure. or, patch your bullets up with teflon tape to 316 diameter. I have used alot of teflon patching on 45-70 cast bullets and it works great, no glue or other sticky stuff to make the paper stick.

[geargnasher]

Wet patch a grooved bullet and there is no need for glue.

Gear