Bullet expansion important in 45-70?

[Jevyod]

I am sorry if this subject has been beat to death before. I am looking at casting for my 45-70. I have been doing lots of reading, and I was pretty much set on not worrying about expansion, but allowing the meplat to do the work. All was well, until I started reading Forty Years with the .45-70 by Paul Matthews. In the book, it seems like he is an advocate of making sure the alloy is soft enough to get expansion. I assumed that with the large diameter, expansion was not necessary. What are your thoughts? Do you worry about expansion, or just shoot:veryconfu

The second question is, assuming I allow the meplat to do the damage, how big of a meplat do I look for? I have 3 different styles of boolits to try out. One is a Lyman 330? grain with a meplat of approximately .27; then there is a Lee 400 grain with about the same meplat, then there is a Lyman 405 grain with a meplat of .325 or so. Maybe I am splitting hairs here, but is a .27 meplat sufficient for say Whitetail-moose? Or should I be looking for a larger one? I really like the looks of the Ranch Dog mold with the .330 meplat. I love to learn, so please educate me! My apologies if this is a dumb question. I have actually never taken any game with a cast boolit, but really really really want to!:Fire:

[Cowboy_Dan]

I haven't taken any game with cast either, but as far as whitetail is concerned, I've always heard that if the boolit will kill a human, it's good enough for whitetail. Moose may be a different story, but any of those should get Bambi with decent placement, from what I've heard/read.

[EMC45]

I put 3 deer in the freezer with the Lee 405gr. plain base bullet over 15gr. Unique. Never recovered a bullet, but the holes were clean in and out. Not really sure what they looked like after their flight.

[Outpost75]

In blackpowder cartridges such as the .44-40 and .45-70 I have always used soft alloy for hunting, no harder than 10 BHN, and favored a flatnosed bullet with a meplat not less than 0.55 of bullet diameter, and preferably 0.6 to 0.7 of bullet diameter, at a velocity not less than 1200 fps. Such a bullet will give complete through and through penetration from any angle and provide sufficient crush that mushrooming is not required, however the nose will rivet and deform if large bones are hit.

Above 1300 fps you will get expansion, but about 1400 fps is a practical limit for plainbased bullets without taking additional precautions against leading. Dacron fiber fill is simple and works.

[dualsport]

Can pure lead be used for BP loads in the 45-70? I have three Lee pots already, hard, medium, and pure lead. I guess I could make a batch of 20/1 on the old Coleman.

[Outpost75]

Can pure lead be used for BP loads in the 45-70? I have three Lee pots already, hard, medium, and pure lead. I guess I could make a batch of 20/1 on the old Coleman.

Pure lead works OK with black.

[Blackwater]

As a buddy of mine once said, "You can load the .45/70 with black powder, smokeless, ashtrays or feather pillows and it'll STILL kill anything that needs killing." It's true, too!

Actually, deer are notoriously EASY to kill IF the shooter knows where and how to place the BULLET, which can be either cast or jacketed. Deer can't tell the difference. Those who love the hot, fast calibers (myself included!) like them because they make it EASIER to place those bullets at longer distances. They are also a bit more forgiving in that the damage they do from their speed ("hydrostatic shock") crushes blood vessels, veins and capillaries, and causes damage over a broader radius, and thereby give the shooter greater leeway if he misses his aiming spot slightly. However, even with these, the bullet STILL needs to be placed accurately so as to disrupt vital organs and/or overcome the electrical circuits in the body. Otherwise, you've STILL got a long tracking case on your hands, and too many won't follow up on these shots, leaving magnificent animals in the field wounded, and to die, likely, a death they don't deserve.

Let me illustrate just how easy deer are to kill. A buddy shot a deer that was raiding his yard and eating valued plants for his landscaping business, and it had not been warded off by his best efforts to keep them out. Then one day he saw a moderate but growing 8 pointer in the yard in broad daylight. He got his .22 and a couple of CB caps (no powder at all!) and went to greet the offending critter. He aimed between its eyes as it looked up when he walked out on the porch, and at the report, instead of giving the young buck a good headache like he intended, it dropped and died instantly. A fast pellet gun would have done the same.

Another story, in a past life, I was a probation officer, and got all the illegal hunting cases because they knew I was an avid hunter and had a bad taste for night hunting. I asked every one of the night hunters what caliber they used, and uniformly, they used .22's "because they're not so loud." Asked if they lost many wounded, they uniformly laughed, and said, "not if you hit 'em right." Every single one of them said the same thing, and they weren't lying, either. There are many other instances I could cite, but these should suffice.

Yes, it's easier to place shots at range with fast stepping loads. Yes, they do more damage, comparatively at least, than slower stuff. Yed, they give a hunter a LITTLE more leeway in placing his shots, but not much. But no, they do NOT kill any deader. Period.

As with any tool, applying it well tends to enhance one's results. Very simple, very reliable and very, very true. It may not fit with the ideas some have about killing deer and what makes a "good deer caliber," but the real truth isn't concerned with that. The simple truth is, we (myself included) are definitely "overgunned" when afield, if harvesting venison is our only aim. That won't make me leave my big guns at home, though. I just like shooting them, and they DO allow me just a MITE more room to miss my mark quite exactly. The older I get, the more I appreciate that. Don't ask why.

[EMC45]

My bullets were cast of clipon ACWWs BTW.

[Bigslug]

The RCBS 405 with its .27" meplat was the most awesome milk jug buster I'd ever seen until Pop got the NOE 405 with .34". I call it the harbinger of the milk jug holocaust. There's nothing in North America I'd feel undergunned for with either - expansion or no. For something really big and mean (like Cape buff), I'd probably go slightly smaller meplat in the interests of more penetration. Remember that it's first about hitting something important, and then it becomes about increasing blood loss by increasing wound volume - and that length of the wound channel can count more highly than width in some cases.

[MT Chambers]

Alloy your bullets relative to the velocity you will use, this way you can get both penetration and expansion, I go for the largest meplat possible with the .45/70, such as WFN designs from LBT or Tom at Accurate.

[Magana559]

I have two favorite loads for my 45-70. A stout load of h4198 with a 500 gr boolit with 50% pure 50% coww water dropped or Lyman #2 alloy.

I have yet to hunt with it but it sure dose damage water jugs. Lyman #2 doesn't expand but the 50/50 mix mushrooms nicely.

[Lead Fred]

My lead is 15-17bhn, and the Ranch Dog 425s blow big holes thru critters

about 1-1.5 inchs in, 3-4 inches out.

Zero expansion

Just a huge chunk of metal grabbing everything in its path, and blowing out the back side of what ever it hits

[W.R.Buchanan]

I think you'll be fine no matter which boolit you use in a .45-70. .45-70's had killed virtually every animal on earth by 1900, with the possible exception of whales, and somebody probably even killed whales too.

This is with Black Powder loads and 400-500 gr soft lead boolits at 1200-1300 fps. Nobody was worrying about the Meplat back then, they just shot stuff.

My main boolit for my .45-70 is RCBS .45-300 FN GC. And I run it from 1200 to about 1600fps. This is for shooting Cowboy Silhouette. It knocks the 55lb 200 meter Rams down with authority! Sure it would take any Deer Elk or Moose on the planet with no problems

RCBS .45-405 FN is the same boolit but longer, as is .45-500 FN. These boolits all have the same nose section but just have more driving bands for more weight.

Any of these boolits is going to punch a 1/2" hole thru whatever game animal you shoot.

Don't worry about the meplat you're still going to get a 1/2" hole no matter how you do it.

Randy

[BK7saum]

I've loaded the MP 45 330 grain gas check hollow point over a medium/stout load of 4198 and all I recovered from the dirt berm was the gas check on about 1/8" of lead wafer. The alloy was 50/50 pure/WW. I've shot some flat points that held together a little better but still expanded/mushroomed a lot at the velocity I was shooting them. Guess I need to slow them down or harden the alloy.

[milkman]

My hunting boolit for the 45/70 is the Lee 500g GC cast of pure lead. I load it over Herco for about 1200fps with some dacron fill. No leading and very accurate. Past 100 yd it is like chunking watermelons though, not a prairie load.

[cstrickland]

I will start this with I have never shot 45/70, but I have read a ton about the expansion versus meplat issue you are asking about. I will refer you to a page on the Garret Cartridge website. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/meplats.html for some additional information on this.

They make a living selling hard cast loads for 44 mag and 45/70 only and nothing else, so I feel they have a good base of reference to speak from . One of their customers took their 45/70 loads on safari to Africa, and took all big 5 with a marlin lever action rifle using their hammer head ammo. I am of the feeling if they use a hard cast on both thick and thin skinned dangerous game in Africa, it should be more than suitable for any North American game.

I suggest actually reading all of their articles as I feel there is some good information there for those with questions on hard cast bullets


charlie

[MtGun44]

Hmm. Quick thought experiment. How much deader is a deer or elk with a
.60 cal hole end to end than with a .45 cal hole end to end? My guess is it
will be pretty hard to measure.

Bill

[SniderBoomer]

I shoot mostly Paper-Patched boolits in my Marlin 1895 these days, of pure lead. From soft loads to loads almost too painful to shoot, never see a drop of lead fouling in the barrel. Cheap as chips and even in loose sand, the expansion is colossal. Lots of other advantages, much written in other threads. Try it, but beware it gets addictive...

[offshore44]

I shoot a 458 Win mag loaded with a Saeco 405grn RNFP, paper patched, at about 1800 fps. The alloy is 16:1 lead / tin. They expand to about 1" diameter or maybe a little less on the few that I have recovered. Complete through and throughs on anything shot so far. The wife shoots a 350 grn. Saeco made from scrap lead alloy out of a 45-70 at about 1300 fps. Not as much expansion, pretty much the same exact results though. Dead critters. Not usually a bang-flop, but you never have to chase a critter very far and always a pretty good blood trail to follow.

Edited to add: We load up an accurate, comfortable load and shoot. The 45 caliber rifle just works.

[MBTcustom]

A similar question would be:
"if I sharpen the blade on my bulldozer, will it save me gas when I use it to turn over my wife's flower bed?"
At a certain point, expansion just doesn't matter anymore. This goes for shooting jackrabbits with a 44magnum, or armadillos with 12 gauge slugs. Heck, you could be shooting solid copper bullets and you would still drop deer like a sack o taters.

There is such thing as too much effect ya know. (See my sig line)

[offshore44]

<snip>

There is such thing as too much effect ya know. (See my sig line)

Yup, too much of a good thing is sometimes a bad thing.

[44man]

Alloy your bullets relative to the velocity you will use, this way you can get both penetration and expansion, I go for the largest meplat possible with the .45/70, such as WFN designs from LBT or Tom at Accurate.
Alloy is the proper answer. I have lost deer with the 45-70 BFR shot with a WFN hard cast. Last I recovered went over 200 yards with nary a blood trail for 100 yards but I knew where it was going. My boolit would have worked if slower, 1200 to 1300 fps but at 1600+, it poked a hole with no damage to lungs, they were still pink with just a hole.
Don't believe the 1/2" hole stuff. My boolit would work better for a very large animal but deer are small. Need some expansion. Soft in the caliber has always worked.
I make no claims as to what my boolit would do at 1800 fps+, I just don't know.
I would never depend on meplat only, seems there is a huge pressure wave that moves tissue out of the boolit path if the wrong velocity.
I see the same bad results with a hard boolit, 440 gr from my .500 JRH at 1350 fps. There is a point with velocity or boolit weight where expansion HAS to be there.
Don't bring in it is where you hit stuff, There is a point of failure with a perfect hit unless you hit the spine.

[fredj338]

Depends on what you are hunting I guess. There is enough mass for good penetration, even with some serious expansion. For 250# & smaller game, I would prefer expansion.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)

[seaboltm]

I always thought of a 458 bullet as a "pre-expanded" 30 caliber bullet.

[MBTcustom]

Depends on what you are hunting I guess. There is enough mass for good penetration, even with some serious expansion. For 250# & smaller game, I would prefer expansion.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)


45-70 with hollow points: Because sometimes, dead just aint dead enough.

[zuke]

Anything that walk's away with a near 1/2 inch hole in it and survives shouldn't be hunted with something that "small"

[44man]

I always thought of a 458 bullet as a "pre-expanded" 30 caliber bullet.
They were my thoughts too. I always do great with the .44 so when I got the BFR 45-70 I thought the additional speed would work better. That did not work so I made a WFN and it also failed. I had good shots and sure I killed them but could not find them. No blood trail here and you will never track one, just too many tracks. Babore had sent me some 50-50 HP's so I oven hardened them, sighted in and blew the snot out of the next deer, destroyed an entire shoulder at exit. Bloodshot all up and down, neck to butt. These hardened to near 20 BHN but did not slow expansion at all. I am thinking a soft nose, no HP, next time or 75-25 alloy.
The big, flat HP's shown might be too much of a good thing.
I shoot a lot of deer, usually 7 a year and have made many mistakes. It is no fun to spend hours searching for a deer and come up empty, so someone can keep the 1/2" hole idea. Lungs are mostly air and need busted up instead of poked.
What is forgotten is the expanded 30 cal has provided massive energy. Each caliber and velocity is different so my search for perfection with each will continue.
The 45-70 can be both worlds, lost animals or a cloud of red mist with pre-ground meat. I never figured a revolver to be so destructive, last deer I shot was with a Hornady rifle bullet and it worked fine, did not trust my boolits. I still need to find the middle ground.
I suggest not to look for dead flat boolits either.

[44man]

I did all the tests with water jugs, soaked paper and it is not the real world, neither is a block of Jello. I got beautiful flat, .44 240 XTP's but shot my first three deer with them and I seen them go down over 60 yards because it was open. I recovered all three bullets at the rib cages. I back tracked and found a zero blood trail. I back track every deer.
Not good so I went to the 320 LBT and there was gallons of blood to track. I could run a trail if I could run.
Energy dump and ME does not kill good if you can't find what you shot.
Energy kills to be sure but it is where the energy is put before exit and two holes are always better.
We have members here that shot very large animals with HP's and found they did not work.

[Dan Cash]

The only deer I have killed with a .45-70 was with a 540 grain Creedmoor style bullet over 70 grains of black powder fired from my Sharps target rifle. The muzzle velocity on that load is about 1150. The deer had a 1 inch tunnel of destroyed meat all the way through its body and was dead right there.


Soft cast 31141 bullets in a .30-30 at 2000 fps will drop an elk in its tracks at 100 yards or so. a 105 grain flat point bullet with a .18 meplat from a .32-20 at 1600 fps is extremly destructive of porcupine and coyote tissue.
Bottom line, ferggedaboudit, cast, load and shoot what shoots well.

[DanWalker]

I've killed a handful of african animals and a boat load of deer, hogs, and a few antelope, with a 45LC and cast boolits. I am of the opinion that shot placement and alloy are the keys. I shoot 50/50 WW. I have hit deer and antelope with a 454424 and LEE 320's at 900 fps and seen them just crumple after a few seconds. I've punched 320's through hogs at 1200 fps and it just piled them up. The farthest any of the african game I shot went was 60 yards. It was a gemsbok shot with a 454424 at 1500 fps. The common thread in all of these kills was placement. I became disenchanted with the classic behind the shoulder shot VERY quickly after I started shooting critters with handguns. Now I bust shoulders. If possible, I try to break both. If the angle isn't right, I ALWAYS wait until I can at least break the offside shoulder. Regarding blood trails; I have found that shooting from above the animal (treestands) always produces a superior blood trail. You wind up with an exit hole low on the critter and the blood just drains out. With a horizontal shot, you have to wait for the blood in the body cavity to reach the heigth of the wound in order for it to start leaking out on the ground. A tough critter like an elk or antelope can cover a LOT of ground before that happens. That's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth...

[Bigslug]

Hmm. Quick thought experiment. How much deader is a deer or elk with a
.60 cal hole end to end than with a .45 cal hole end to end? My guess is it
will be pretty hard to measure.

Bill

Funny you should mention. I recently read a borrowed copy of Veral Smith's book. I disremember the exact figures, but he states that the common thread in many rapid kills is a pass-through wound channel between 0.5" and 1.5" in diameter. Less than 0.5", and the critter doesn't bleed out fast enough to drop in only a handful of yards. On wound channels larger than this, he has some interesting stuff to say - notably that they're often the result of high-velocity hydrostatic-type effects that can actually do damage on the cellular level, which - oddly - causes more rapid clotting (or possibly bruising and swelling) and slower blood loss than less "dramatic" impacts. Also, these rapid-expanders are less likely to generate an exit hole, making it harder for that blood to get out of the body.

At any rate, if you subscribe to 100% of this reasoning (and I buy far more of it than I doubt), it plays right into the concept of a heavy, relatively slow .45 with a wide meplat being among the most efficient game killers obtainable. It WILL make a wound channel of the appropriate diameter. It WILL exit almost anything short of a raking shot on a dilophosaurus. It will NOT deviate from your path of aim on light bones and gristle. True, the trajectory leaves a little to be desired, but what percent of our deer are killed farther than 150 yards anyway? There's A LOT to like here.

[44man]

Two good posts. I have found my .45 Colt kills faster then the hard 45-70 boolit but not when the 45-70 expands just right.
Veral is correct in that smashed tissue will seal fast. Clean cuts don't seal and is why an arrow kills so fast. I see it here all the time with the need to help find others deer for them. Most here use 7mm and .300 mags, why I don't know since a 30-30 is all needed. Seen a big buck stop bleeding in 100 yards, went a mile with a hole you could stick your head in.
Had a strange guy here once that did not field dress, took them home to hang first. His deer was with mine in the back of his truck and he swung the wrong deer into my truck and I heard "plop, plop" in the driveway. I said what was that. Found a heart that came out the hole in his deer and it was shot with a 30-30.
I gave up and sold my 280 because of bloodshot meat, even at over 220 yards. Last was on a dead run, 220 yards, in the open, pulled a good lead and found little sprays of blood from shrapnel on the snow. Bullet broke up. Lungs were destroyed but the bloodshot was just too much, took all day to clean meat.
I want that happy medium where I drop a deer right quick and butcher to the hole.
Right now it is the .475 from my BFR. 420 gr at 1329 fps. Water dropped WW boolits at around 20 to 22 BHN. No other gun I have has dropped so many deer on the spot. It works so well on deer but I would use it on any animal of any size. T Rex, look out! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[StrawHat]

I have said it before but the more I use the 50-70, the less I like the 45-70.

[TXGunNut]

The first game I killed with a boolit was with the RD 350, the most recent was also with that boolit. There have been a few in between and with the exception of the first one they simply dropped in their tracks, the first one was piled up a short distance away. I don't know if this bullet expands but I know it performs as well as I can ask for.

[Hannibal]

45-70 with hollow points: Because sometimes, dead just aint dead enough.
That's FUNNY right there, I don't care WHO you are !!!:happy dance:

[44man]

That's FUNNY right there, I don't care WHO you are !!!:happy dance:
Until you cut your own meat and don't dump it to someone else. The poor butcher does not like ruined meat either. Go buy meat, see any bloodshot? They don't shoot a cow with a .458, they shoot between the eyes with a .22 or special hammer. Many do not know how to skin or cut, just haul it to a butcher. Money talks, experience walks.

[Hannibal]

I find it interesting that by my expressing an appreciation for the humor in another member's post that you have concluded that #1- I do not hunt deer, #2 - I do not process my own deer, #3 - I do not have any experience processing any other animal, wild or domesticated.

Incorrect on all counts.

I believe the point being made in the quoted post was the apparent 'overkill' of using a hollow-point 300+ grain bullet fired from a 45-70 on a whitetail deer. Pun intended.

My personal choice is the lowely .243 with 90 grain PSPs. No, I don't lose deer. I practice proper shot placement. I DO, in fact process my own deer and work to avoid spoiled meat.

Enjoy your walk, and good day to you, 'Sir'.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with 44man; "Don't believe the 1/2" hole stuff. My boolit would work better for a very large animal but deer are small. Need some expansion. Soft in the caliber has always worked".


With fredj338; " Depends on what you are hunting I guess. There is enough mass for good penetration, even with some serious expansion. For 250# & smaller game, I would prefer expansion."

And with goodsteel; "Because sometimes, dead just aint dead enough."

We've been through this topic with rifle and handgun bullets, cast and jacketed, numerous times before. It's not a matter of "killing". It's a matter of how fast the animal is killed in many instances of finding the game, not having someone else shoot the animal again and/or get to and tag the game a also from an ethical standpoint some of us have regarding killing the game as quickly as possible.

I always prefer softer alloyed cast bullets that expand and will use a HP if it is needed. I've killed enough deer and elk with expanding bullets and non expanding bullets to understand meat damage can be severe with both and non existent with both. I long ago learned shot placement was more important to lessening meat damage with both kinds of bullets than the difference between the expanding cast bullet and the Hard FN'd cast bullets. I prefer the expanding cast bullets because they do kill quicker with other than the brain or spine shot.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I find it interesting that by my expressing an appreciation for the humor in another member's post that you have concluded that #1- I do not hunt deer, #2 - I do not process my own deer, #3 - I do not have any experience processing any other animal, wild or domesticated.

Incorrect on all counts.

I believe the point being made in the quoted post was the apparent 'overkill' of using a hollow-point 300+ grain bullet fired from a 45-70 on a whitetail deer. Pun intended.

My personal choice is the lowely .243 with 90 grain PSPs. No, I don't lose deer. I practice proper shot placement. I DO, in fact process my own deer and work to avoid spoiled meat.

Enjoy your walk, and good day to you, 'Sir'.
Nothing is personal and the .243 is a good caliber. Some of my best kills have been with the .6.5 Swede. There is still a difference between mangled meat and a quick kill without ruined meat when you choose right.
I find it great to see you do your own cutting and do see why you don't have to destroy a deer. To put deer down quick does not mean overkill. Yet, there is under kill. I once shot a nice doe with the 45-70 BFR, she stayed on her feet so I shot her again. She took off up a steep hill so i tracked her. It was getting darker and I heard a shot at the top of the hill. My neighbor dropped her with his rifle. He called to me since he knew it was me. How that deer went up that steep hill after shot twice baffles me. I tried to give the deer to my friend but he refused.
Larry makes a good point, it is still what your boolit does. Some of my calibers NEED expansion.
If you think a .50 hole is better then a .45 hole, I beg to differ.