Original Remington Creedmoor - need a mold

[Woollybugger]

All:

Newbie here.

I have owned this Original Rem Creedmoor for 30 plus years and I'm finally getting together the necessary components to shoot it. It is in outstanding condition, complete with both tang and the butt sight mount.
Barrel is marked 44s-100 but casts as 44 Remington Special. The barrel is 5 groove so measuring the bore is a bit tricky - best I can tell is groove .446 and bore .443. Very little free bore - maybe .190 from case mouth to start of rifling.

I have 40 new cases (HDS 44 Sharps BSC) that I have sized and trimmed. Fired formed a few with cream of wheat.

Now I need to find a Boolit. Paperpatch? I'm leaning that way, more because that was how it was built and the freebore might make a GG a tougher mold to find.

Anyone with directions on getting some boolits to try or what I should do next please clue me in.

I've read Matthews book -"The paper Jacket" and the process does not seem that tough, I just don't want to screw this old girl up. :?

Best,

Mark
In North Dakota

[Nobade]

Hi Wollybugger, welcome to the forum!

That rifle is undoubtedly designed to shoot bullets patched to bore diameter. One of the best books available now is by Randolph Wright, I think it's called "A beginner's guide to paper patched bullets" or something similar. Bill Ferguson (the antimony man) sells it, as does several other vendors. It will take you through the whole process and is more applicable to your situation than the Paper Jacket is.

If you don't know about Buffalo Arms (BACO) you need to check out their web site and get a catalog. They sell moulds, pre made bullets, patching paper, wad material, wad cutters, etc. Everything you need to get that rifle up and running like it is supposed to.

You have a valuable piece of history there, take good care of it and learn to give it the love it needs. Congratulations!

-Nobade

[country gent]

Loading and shootind Paper Patched bullets A beginners guide is very good place to start with. I have the Paul Matthews The Paper Jacket and it is informative it deal more with smokeless ammo than Black powder. Buffalo Arms have the soft lead bullets needed for this and onion paper to wrap with, they also have templates. Its almost just as easu to make your template from scratch as fine tune a purchased one. Read the above book and follow the instructions.

[John Allen]

Woolybugger, please post some pics of this sucker. I NEED to see it.

[Lead pot]

You will be best served making a good chamber cast. The Remingtons had a different bore groove then the .438/.446 now used. And make sure if your chamber is the .44 necked Special or the Straight. I have even seen one chambered in the Sharps .44-2-5/8 BN. at a collectors show.
I shoot several .44's using the PP bullets of different diameters and lengths. If you get a good cast and let me know what the bore grooves are or send me the cast I will give you some bullets and the propped patch template so you can make the proper patches and get the proper mould for that fine rifle you have. But I will not send bullets that wont do you any good.
I would imagine that with the tang and heal sight bases you say this rifle has that it is most likely have a Hepburn.
You mentioned that you have the HDS .44 basic brass that brass has about a .515 base diameter, at least the HDS brass I use for the .44 Sharps necked uses. The Rem ST and specials where different in those dimensions from what I have seen.

[Woollybugger]

All,

Thanks a ton for the help.

I have attached the dimensions from the chamber cast, Photos of the cast, a fire-formed case and of the Rifle.

Lead pot, I can send you a slug of the bore and a fire-formed case if that is of any help? - the chamber cast is the one and only.

116519
116521
116522116523

[Lead pot]

Your measurements and drawing is good enough. That is a very nice chamber cast.
Taking your drawing measurements on the case neck I will say your bore measurements are close. It's hard to get a precise measurement without using a 37 degree V block or V anvil mike.
I don't have a bullet of the proper diameter for your chamber. That is a very nice Rem roller sporting rifle you have and from the looks of your cast it looks like a very good bore also.

[Woollybugger]

Thanks Lead Pot,

Can I try a .432? or .433? PP bullet or will I need a custom mold?

[Lead pot]

I would get an unpatched bullet that is .008 'under bore diameter. To keep the bullet in the case neck above shoulder a groove diameter patched bullet with the lead your drawing shows might not be the best.
WIth a unpatched bullet that is .008" under bore diameter will let you use a paper that is .002" or .0022" thick. this is a paper a lot easier to find like at the paper mill.
A custom made mould would be my way to go. I don't like to jury rig a bullet through sizing dies. I would go with a bullet a couple thousands under bore diameter than running them through a sizing die and changing their dynamics.
If you cant get a true measurement with a bore slug tale the rifle to a machine shot and have him check it with pin gauges before spending money on a good custom mould and do it once.
My patched bullets for match shooting are patched to .438 and .439" for hunting the .44 bullet is patched .002 under bore diameter.

[.22-10-45]

Don't rule out G.G. bullets too soon! I have an original Remington No.1 short-range rifle in .40-50 B.N. even though rifling grooves are shallow for P.P., this thing will pile 300gr. G.G. on top of one another at 100yds.

[bigted]

a hint on the grease groove boolits if you are going to try em for effect. measure the inside diameter of your fireformed case to see what the chamber/throat desires ... no matter what the bore/groove measure out to.

fill the fireformed case neck with lead and with no need for sizing or crimping ... be astonished at your outcome.

quite different then the paperpatch requirements. i would then load your GG boolits to just kiss the rifling and swipe between each shot. easy peasy.

[montana_charlie]

a hint on the grease groove boolits if you are going to try em for effect. measure the inside diameter of your fireformed case to see what the chamber/throat desires ...
Ted points to a measurement that is not being considered.

The ID of the chamber at the mouth is shown to be .475".
If the wall thickness of the brass is .010" at the mouth, the bullet that fits the chamber is .455"
If the neck is sized down a bit to facilitate easy chambering, it still wants a >.445" diameter bullet.


Are you sure that your groove diameter is .446 and the bore is .443?
That is only a difference of three thousandths ... meaning the rifling is only .0015" deep.

CM

[Woollybugger]

Hi All,

I finally retired and want to resurrect this topic.
I will try again to measure the chamber cast bore and groove diameter to get a good understanding on what size mold I need to buy.

Would a slug of the bore be of better use? Again this is a 5 groove Remington barrel and I have not found a great way to measure the bore and groove.

Thanks again,

Mark
in ND

[kokomokid]

I would take it to a machine shop and try gage pins to find the bore size. You only need to go half inch or so deep as these bbls were crooked and a gage pin will hang up if you try to go through.

[Woollybugger]

Excellent!

I was unaware of these.

Thanks again

[skeettx]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010753165/montana-precision-swaging-cast-bullets-44-caliber-446-diameter-485-grain-lead-flat-nose-spg-lubricant-box-of-50

https://www.buffaloarms.com/446-385-grain-fn-quality-hand-cast-lead-bullets-20-1-alloy-spg-lube-from-rcbs-44-370fn-mould-box-of-50-446385

https://www.etsy.com/listing/541710590/hard-cast-bullets-11mm-mauser-446

[Woollybugger]

Skeettx

I'm only looking at PP boolits for this one. A .434 -.432 (near 500gr) PP bullet + 4 thickness (2 wraps) of .0024 paper will build it to .4416 -.4436 bore diameter. I want to nail the bore diameter and paper before I order a mold. Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Probably better take a closer look at a .435-438 bullet wrapped in 8 lb paper, and check the twist, a 500 gr bullet might be a bit longer than the twist will stabilize at long range.

[Woollybugger]

Thanks Don,

Which 8# paper?

I had wondered about the twist too. Is an adjustable mold a workable option for adjusting the bullet to the twist?

Thanks again

[Don McDowell]

Seth Cole 55w is a good paper. Staples office supply also sells an 8 lb paper roll in their drafting supplies that is quite similar to Seth Cole.
Adjustable moulds can work well.

[Woollybugger]

Cool - Thanks for the help.

Getting this gun to a good machinist is not so easy. Most around here are farm weld shops.
I ordered a set of pin gages .440 - .446 in .0005 increments (13 pins) for $68 delivered from MSC.

[BrentD]

BE SO **** CAREFUL using those pin gauges. There is a true story out there of a barrel that was ruined by someone (who should have known better) measuring someone else's rifle. Don't try to run the gauges from stem to stern. Do as Kokomo suggests. That is one hell of a cool rifle and it needs good care.

Twist rate matters. Make sure you know what it is before you dive into bullet selection.

I wasn't aware of Rem Creedmoors having odd numbers of rifling.

[BrentD]

Oh yeah, do not think another dozen or two close up pictures and entire rifle pictures are out of line. I'd love to see them. And the sight? Is it original too? What's up front.

Beautiful rifle. There are now about 3 rollers that I have really lusted over, ever. This morning there were only 2. :)

[Lead pot]

Woolybugger you're sure a patient feller having that rifle for more then three years and not shot it yet :)

Here is another option to measure that odd numbered grooved barrel.
Take a blade out of a old feeler gauge, they are not used much anymore since the spark plugs and points are of date :) and take the .001" or the thinnest one might be .002" and loop it around that chamber cast and squeeze the ends tight with your fingers and measure the diameter then subtract the feeler gauge diameter X2 that will give you the groove diameter because the gauge will bridge the grooves unless you have vice grip fingers that will pull them down in the groove :) Then you can measure with a caliper to get the depth of one groove, if that measurement is .003" then the total groove diameter then you know it will be 006" less then the groove diameter. Like if the groove is .451"- .006" then you have a .445" bore. Pin gauges or number bits are good but if not used right will damage the barrel.

Then see what you can find for paper and get some then order your mould to match the paper thickness X4 One thing I have found you cant rely on the poundage the paper is listed at like 8# 7.5# and so on I have 7.5# paper that is thicker then 9#. The sizing of the paper that keeps the ink from bleeding through will vary from maker to maker for what the paper is made for. Wood pulp or high percentage of cotton like 100% wood pulp or 100% cotton will make a difference with weight and thickness. It is always best to have a bullet a thousand or two to large then to small, but again you can match the diameter with paper too.
Also ordering a mould......don't go by weight go by bullet length that matches your twist. The ogive shape will determine the bullet weight as well as the alloy is used.
:) still waiting to see that ragged 10 shot hole through the paper :)

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

I have a friend that just got one of those Remingtons, only it's a strange duck it has a 15 lb factory barrel.. Anyway he took it to one of the more notable gunsmiths in Cody, and the darn thing has a .450 groove, but the chamber with new brass won't accept anything larger than a .448 bullet.
Brent cautioned well, be very careful with those pin gauges.

[Lead pot]

Don I had some .44 rollers with a 451" grooves and some with very shallow grooves some deep :)

[Don McDowell]

It'll be interesting to see what it takes to get that rifle to shoot. I sent him a pretty broad selection of brass and patched bullets, and a few greasers from an original Ideal mould. He's also got a custom mould coming for it. Waiting for the weather to moderate in Park county, to hear back from him if and what it'll shoot. The rims on the new brass is to thin for the chamber, but he did find some new production brass with the thicker rim.

[Woollybugger]

Thanks all for the feedback.

I've had this rifle for 35 plus years and only started to consider feeding it when I found the Huntington 44 brass.
The pin gauges say it is .446(go)-.4465(no go - could score the bore) bore. Two wraps of seth cole 55W make a .4415 pin gauge = .4465-447.

Bullets cast to .441 or .442? or other paper/bullet combinations?

Twist looks to be 1-18" How long of a pill can it shoot?

Thanks again,

Mark

[Woollybugger]

http://merzantiques.com/photo/remington-number-1-long-range-creedmoor-rifle has one nearly identical. Mine is 44s100 (2-7/16) and has the extra base for the rear Vernier at the butt.

[Don McDowell]

I would say about any bullet between .440 and .442 wrapped in Seth Cole 55w, keep the bullet length to 1.35 and probably no longer than 1.4 inches. Cast it from 20-1 or 16-1
.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

woolybugger,
you are a lucky person.
if you select a mould that casts a bullet at 0.441, it sounds good to go with seth cole 55w.
if you decide to try a bullet 0.001 bigger than that, buffalo arms paper will do that with the same bullet.
the odg wanted a bullet that would slide down the barrel under the weight of a cleaning ros as a starting point.
for long range accuracy, experience has shown that bullets 0.001 undersize will rarely shoot as well as a perfect fit.
undersize bullets often prefer softer alloys as they have further to bump up, and these alloys also set the noses back more, causing longer time of flight and hence wind deflection.
usual alloys were in the order of 11:1 down to 14:1, so 16:1 is soft by comparison.
i have had success with 12:1, and it pays to test.
16:1 is hard for greasers, but soft for target pp bullets.
in all liklihood your rifle is meant for pp bullets only.
the old rem 44s were very close to 45 cal compared to today.
enjoy the ride.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

just did a stability calculation on the berger calculator.
a 1.5" long bullet of 520 gns fired at 1300 fps at sea level from an 18 twist barrel will have a stability factor (s.g.) of 2.07, well above the accepted norm of 1.5.
in the transonic zone, the s.g. 1.5 has proven to be dangerous, and 1.8 to 2.0 is better.
a bullet length of 1.45" would be even safer.
an elliptical nose will aid stability by allowing the centre of pressure to be back nearer the centre of mass of the bullet than some other nose shapes.
the elliptical nos also happens to be very similar to the shape of the old long range pp bullets later in the era.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Woollybugger]

Bruce,

Thanks for the great detail. I was looking at testing with some swagged .441 and .442 bullets from Buffalo Arms but they are pure lead so that might not be so wise.

This mold fits your formula pretty well.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/441-530-elliptical-grain-paper-patch-bullet-mold-2-cavity-flat-base-jim2441530e

Or should I spring for an adjustable so I can cast them shorter if needed?

G'day Mate

[Don McDowell]

This one is pretty close to what the rifle originally shot.https://www.buffaloarms.com/441-520-grain-round-nose-paper-patch-bullet-mold-1-cav-flat-base-jim441520
I shoot two bullets like it altho one is bigger in diameter for the 45's and one is smaller for the Shiloh 44's.
Brooks does a good adjustable and if you specific the "new" postell nose it's sort of a cross between elliptical and money profile, his original postell nose is a good shooter as well. There's two problems that crop up with the adjustable, base fill out can sometimes be problematic, and due to the nature of the beast you're going to have a bullet with a nice little flat nose on it.. But they still shoot well, and the ability to adjust the length to perfection for the rifles taste is the big plus.

[kokomokid]

Brooks made me a very nice mould that cast .444 and wraps to .450. I run thru a .4495 size die after wrap for my Krieger bbl. I talked to Brooks about the elliptical nose and he cut what I wanted. I think if you wrap to bore dia that groove dia will take care of itself.

[kokomokid]

Buffalo arms makes a very nice mould also and for a few dollars more will make some custom changes.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

woolybugger,
your mould should be good to go.
adjustables are more suited to hunting with their flat noses, and once you get the length, you will likely never adjust it again.
they certainly have lower b.c. than base pour.
brooks can do elliptical, but you need to make it clear to him what you want.
try shooting the baco bullet a fair bit before spending further money.
if it has stability issues they will show at about 700 yds.
this is because drag varies with velocity, and max drag happens at the bottom end of the transonic zone, which just happens around that range.
you need to shoot a bullet a lot to get to know it, and what it does in different conditions.
somewhere on the internet is an article about a guy called major hinman, who shot at seagirt until 1912 when the black powder any rifle long range shooting ended.
he continued to use a roller when others were using borchardts and hepburns and shot the equal highest ever score.
he clearly states that while some preferred bottleneck, and some straight cases, that most were breech seating.
with bore diameter pp bullets this is easily done with a simple palm seater, and bullets slightly bigger than bore can be pushed in.
the same bullets in fixed ammo can often press back on the powder changing compression.
with breech seating you just droptube the case full of powder and put a wad on top to hold the powder in.
a thin hard wad is best.
tuning is done by increasing the depth of breech seating, increasing the airgap between wad and bullet, until best verticle group is found.
in 40 to 45 cal, the airgap will be around 1/8", with smaller calibres being more around 1/16".
photos of old shooting kits show breech seaters included.
the other consideration when testing for accuracy with long range target rifles is wiping.
clean as a whistle is a good place to start, as it is consistent.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Woollybugger]

One last data point: I measured the chamber cast with a .002 feeler gauge and find the groove diameter to be .455 - bore is .446 so we have a groove depth of .0045.

Would I learn anything trying .441 and .442 swagged Buffalo arms (pure lead) bullets or will bullets cast at a higher alloy be more useful?

[BRUCE MOULDS]

woolybugger,
pure lead bullets in that gunwill let you hear it go bang and see smoke, but are so far from what it was made to use as to be like tits on a bull.
if your measurements are correct the 441 baco bullet on your link at 16:1 is a place to start that will give you meaningful data from the start.
you can get 3 diameters by patching wet, and dry, with seth cole 55w, and wet with baco paper.
seth cole 55y is also useful if you just need a slightly smaller bullet than 55 w gives.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

At shorter ranges those soft swaged bullets will at least give you the fundamentals of wrapping bullets, and the importance of fouling control. Bodine said in his letter to Sharps that he preferred the deeper grooves as they allowed for somewhat better shooting without so much effort into fouling control. IE shooting dirty.
But as much as I like to see people spend money with my friend Dave's business, for the cost of a couple of boxes of those swaged bullets , you could order a mould from Accurate and cast bullets from 20-1 or harder alloy. Or you could just go ahead and order a mould from BACO, if the bullet doesn't work as you would like it to, you won't take much if any loss on it should you decide to sell it on the open market.

[kokomokid]

I have thought that the very shallow rifling was a holdover from the Chase patch used for target shooting. Just a thought on shallow rifling.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the rifling depth on this rifle will do fine.
it is not deep.
it is in fact shallow compared to older technology.
really deep rifling went out with pure lead early in the long range muzzle loader era.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Woollybugger]

While I'm waiting for a mold I also need a sight insert. This is the only one that fits and it belongs to another roller owner.
213665
Anyone know what brand or version of sight this is?

The complete sight is windage adjustable and the bubble level retains the insert.
213666

[Don McDowell]

Contact Distant Thunder products for sight inserts.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah Jim at Distant Thunder can likely make up anything you need. He's a great guy to deal with.

Chris.