Need input on 5.45x39 case forming

[GRUMPA]

I get asked if I do this more times than I want to remember. Thing is when I try and do some research on it I can find "ZERO" drawings on the case. And what I mean by drawings is a print with the upper and lower limits of the specs.

I've noticed folks that ask me tell me they make them from 222Rem brass and there's a .020 difference between the 222Rem case and the 5.45x39 case. Something like that just doesn't rank right up there in the quality dept as far as I'm concerned.

I've read a post on here through the search function (Thanks Willy) and read he used a 30Rem case. He must have more time than I do because I make those from 30-30 cases and those do take a while to make right. Also I'm curious what the heck he's using to squeeze the base down with, there's a good .020 reduction in the base size.

So my basic question would be what do you folks that make the 5.45x39 case use as the parent case and have it perform like it's supposed to?

I've heard from a few folks that the ones that make them from 222Rem want an arm and a leg for it. ME???? if it isn't to bad and especially if I can make them from 222Rem brass will be a darn site more affordable...

[Mk42gunner]

Grumpa,

I never really looked into it, but I always assumed (there's that word again) that the 5.45x39 was derived from the 7.62x39. If that is true, what about starting with the .22 PPC?

It would be awfully expensive for running through an AK type gun, but might be acceptable for a good bolt or single shot.

Robert

[GRUMPA]

From what info I can glean off the net the 30Rem case is the closest thing out there. The base is .415 there abouts and needs to be squeezed down to .394. Something like the 7.62x39 has a base diameter of .440 which is to big for my tastes. And I make the 30Rem from 30-30 brass and it does take an entire day just to make 100 of those.

I wanted to shy away from using the 223 case as a parent case. The base diameter is .377 which is .017 smaller starting out.

[reed1911]

While the 7.62 and 5.45 are both 39mm long they are totally different bodies.

[dtknowles]

I don't have drawing of 5.45x39 but based on your discussion. I think 6.8mm SPC might be usable for parent brass. I looked at it for .30 Rem but the brass was not long enough. You will still have to squeeze the base but it should be cheaper than buy .30 Rem brass and less trouble than starting with 30-30 brass. 6.8mm SPC is 42mm long so it should be long enough for 5.45x39.

Tim

[GRUMPA]

I looked up 6.8 SPC brass, all I have to say is they sure are proud of it. After doing some more looking the 30Rem case is what it was based off of. The 1 hurdle if you want to call it that is the 30Rem cases utilizes a large primer and the 6.8 a small primer. The 6.8 is larger than the 30Rem is, but not by much.

The price for 6.8 so far is from .58-.75ea depending on where you look. While the 30-30 cases I got for the 30Rem conversions cost me around the neighborhood of .15ea. Machining the head down once the machine is set up takes less than a minute, and if you knew me I'm really tight with the ole wallet. Sizing them down is not really all that hard to do but does take a certain technique and some focus. I have a member sending me samples of the case, although steel at least I can make a gauge from the ones that weren't used. I can see I'll need testers when the time comes though. And I'm sorry to say the ones made from 30Rem/30-30 cases are going to be around $1ea. While if I made them from 223/5.56 cases they would be in the neighborhood of .35ea..

[GRUMPA]

Well.....just got done forming the head, but only on 10pcs. Since there's no real drawing that shows the upper and lower limits I need to do a SWAG. Looks like 2 separate base reducing steps but I got the base right where I want it. Now comes the forming part but that'll need to wait since I have other brass to get out. Kinda strange there really isn't hardly anyone that makes these, just 1 that I know of.

So far they look kinda neat, but I'm sure after doing a few K the novelty will wear off.

[EDG]

Grumpa
I have a copy of the CIP standards and they include the 5.45X39

The base of the cartridge is 10mm. Cartridges are always dimensioned as plus nothing minus something on diameters.

These drawings contain cartridge, chamber and, below the pressure testing information, test barrel drawings. They date from the early '90's, so some newer cartridges are missing. I understand SAAMI will be issuing updated docs over the next few years, and those will no-doubt add cartridges and update pressure test information and specifications for those cartridges that have had MAP spec in psi added to their MAP spec in cup.

SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, Inc.)

Rimfire (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/208.pdf)
Pistol and Revolver (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf)
Rifle (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf)
Shotshell (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/209.pdf)

Later: SAAMI now has Piezo transducer charts for some later cartridges included in among the previously established Piezo transducer standards:

Pistol and Revolver (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf)
Centerfire Rifle (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf)


CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives)

CIP Homologation Tables (http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public).
The tolerances for some of the key dimensions are shown at Annexxe. For English click EN.

Homologation is reaching an agreement, so these are the agreed upon standards used by the CIP.

The index at the top of the page changes the category of cartridge type. The tables for each categor run a number of pages (change at the bottom). The Pt max column is the equivalent of SAAMI's MAP (Maximum Average Pressure), the number shown as limits in load manuals, except here it is in bars. If you want to see a CIP drawing, click on EN under the TDCC column to get it in English. If you want test and proof barrel dimensions that reference symbols in those drawings, click on EN in the Annexe column. All the column names have a key under the tables that you can see when you scroll down.

[GRUMPA]

Thanks for the links, that'll help me out a bit....

[GRUMPA]

The 1 flaw if you want to call it that, they don't have a gauge dimension for the shoulder. Guess I'll have to go off an unfired case.

[thehouseproduct]

What are you using for boolits? Aren't they 0.220"-0.221"?

[GRUMPA]

They're .221 and they are out there. Also LEE makes a push through die for that, mine is due anytime at the moment.

[finishman2000]

I can't see the point in reloading the 5.45. Even at $220 for 1000 it really doesn't pay to reload. I have been shooting it for 8 years now and first bought in at $125 shipper per can. I bought a lot of it over the years and will never shoot it all.

[GRUMPA]

I can't see the point in reloading the 5.45. Even at $220 for 1000 it really doesn't pay to reload. I have been shooting it for 8 years now and first bought in at $125 shipper per can. I bought a lot of it over the years and will never shoot it all.

Because I keep getting asked if I can make the brass for it. People have there own reasons for doing the things they do. And personally if I can pull this off I'll consider it a personal accomplishment. Right now there is no reloadable brass out there I'm told, and when I look I come up short.

[EDG]

Grumpa
I put the formula to calculate the gauge dimension into a little spreadsheet.
I can send you a copy if you want. All you have to key in is the "S" length, the cone angle (we say included angle) and the gauge diameter. So easy you can calculate for any of those rounds.
Using the same gauge diameter used for the .223 which is .330
The gauge dimension is 1.2273 inches for the 5.45X39.

The CIP has a separate file for rimless and rimmed cartridges.
If you skip down through the rifle rounds you will eventually get to inch dimensioned rounds.
There you will find all three of the Remingtons .30, .32 and .25. The .25 has the same dimensions in CIP as the .30 and .32 except for the neck of course.

[GRUMPA]

EDG, I just might do that, better to have as much as I can and go from there. Believe me when I say, I'll take all the info I can get...

[rrob692326]

Just bought beautiful bullets from midway for 7 bucks and change for a 100 that are called blems but nothing I can see or measure wrong with them. Probably jut the begining bullets when they start the machine run. The difficuly with forming 222 brass that I am experiencing is the shoulder and body taper dimention and the narrow rim result in insplit cases and torn rims so not worth the work and cost. Just need a few hundred steel cases to keep my rifle going.

[dbosman]

CIP drawing is here. I hope this helps.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/5-45-x-39-en.pdf

[rrob692326]

Midway had 5.45 bullets for sale at a real good deal. Get 2 die set from CH4 for 105.00, use drill kit 30 bucks? on sale at e bay to make steel berdan cases to be able to use boxer primer pocket and I bought primer pocket bushings on ebay for 11.99 for 100 that loctite and or swaged in will allow you to use small rifle primers in the steel cases just use ample amount of imperial sizing die wax in your sizing then you don't have to buy the trim and form dies in addition to the two die set (expensive) and less than stellar results with the 222 brass (well at least for me) as rim size is not right but does work sorta) Steel cases fit perfectly unlike 222 formed cases, and steel ones last at least 3 or 4 loads (sometimes 7). I wash and then dry my cases then tumble in clean corncob media with a little squirt of liquid turtle wax to protect the steel cases from rust. Also, you might feel different but from what I have seen annealing steel cases is a moot exercise Good luck