got a goofy idea...so crazy ...it may work!....or not.

[mozeppa]

we mostly all know that if you forget to put powder in a pistol case,
and shoot it , you'll most likely end up with a squib ( boolit stuck in the barrel)

...for arguments sake , lets use the good ole reliable 38 special.

so... the primer has just enough power to stick a boolit in the barrel ...but not enough to exit the barrel.

we all played with black cat firecrackers as kids...took them apart ...made bigger firecrackers...got our fingers burnt on the very fast
burning flash powder thats in them.

has anyone ever tried to work up a load using black cat flash powder? any success?...too unpredictable?

am i crazy?

could this work?

didn't know where to ask this ...so i dood it here.

[opos]

Gives me the creeps...had a cousin that handed me a 2" salute when I was 5....lit it and said hold it and it will make a pretty flash...didn't tell me the flash would contain blood...still scarred up and have no hearing in my right ear...I'd rather have held a 38 special.

[RED333]

I have not and dont know if it would work.
Seems a bit dangerous to me.

[mozeppa]

I have not and dont know if it would work.
Seems a bit dangerous to me.

i don't mean to pack it full...could it be anymore dangerous than what we already do?

[bangerjim]

I made lots of flash powder as a kid. Made everthing up to and including M-80's.

Aluminum powder + sulfur + salt peter. Easy to make. Far faster than taking apart hundreds of firecrakers. Totally unpredictable! Most places you can't even buy firecrackers!!!!!!!!

Just stick with KNOWN smokeless powders we all use. Your body parts and life are far more important that shooting a few boolits with an unknown powder.

And be safe!

bangerjim

[country gent]

Yes fircrackers are a much much faster form of powder than even bullseye is. Some of the fireworks also use very fine Black powder. And some are a chemical base now. It would be like working with an unlabled powder thats also not even a powder for this use. Pressures could spike tremdously for no reason.

[zuke]

we mostly all know that if you forget to put powder in a pistol case,
and shoot it , you'll most likely end up with a squib ( boolit stuck in the barrel)

...for arguments sake , lets use the good ole reliable 38 special.

so... the primer has just enough power to stick a boolit in the barrel ...but not enough to exit the barrel.

we all played with black cat firecrackers as kids...took them apart ...made bigger firecrackers...got our fingers burnt on the very fast
burning flash powder thats in them.

has anyone ever tried to work up a load using black cat flash powder? any success?...too unpredictable?

am i crazy?

could this work?

didn't know where to ask this ...so i dood it here.

Try it and let us know the result's. And video or it didn't happen!

[ShooterAZ]

Have someone video it and post it on you tube for us. NO don't do it.

[tuckerdog]

Tried making a firecracker out of snapcaps, the kind you throw on the ground and they go pop... took apart about 200 boxes of them, piled the granules on a saucer.... well it is not something you should do if you are clumsy! dropped the scissors on the pile and created a pretty good boom and no small amount of shrapnel!!! still have scars to remember it by. I would think flash powder in a cartridge would build a bunch of pressure VERY fast. easier to just stick with plain ol' bullseye

[firefly1957]

Do NOT DO IT most of the powders used in firecrackers today contains Potassium per chlorate and aluminum it burns very fast and is corrosive.

[dtknowles]

Just to see what you are thinking: do you mean to blow the bullet out of the barrel by using this powder in a primed case with no bullet?

Why do you think this powder would work better than normal powder?

Tim

[Garyshome]

After YOU find out let us know how it went!

[rintinglen]

Are you a Surgeon looking for customers? As Ideas go, file this one under "REALLY, REALLY BAD" put your ten-digited hands in your pockets and saunter inconspicuously towards the exit. Sometimes you just have to ignore the "good idea" fairy.

[DLCTEX]

I made a gun using 1/2 inch pipe with a cap with a hole drilled in it many years ago. A blackcat, wad, bb's, and another wad would dent a stop sign from 20 yards.

[Digital Dan]

Would be a simple matter to put powder in the case and not bother with squibs in the first place. Black or smokeless has been working for quite a spell.

[websterz]

Sounds like an experiment that comes right behind "Hold my beer and watch this!"

[smokeywolf]

we mostly all know that if you forget to put powder in a pistol case,
and shoot it , you'll most likely end up with a squib ( boolit stuck in the barrel)

...for arguments sake , lets use the good ole reliable 38 special.

so... the primer has just enough power to stick a boolit in the barrel ...but not enough to exit the barrel.

we all played with black cat firecrackers as kids...took them apart ...made bigger firecrackers...got our fingers burnt on the very fast
burning flash powder thats in them.

has anyone ever tried to work up a load using black cat flash powder? any success?...too unpredictable?

am i crazy?

could this work?

didn't know where to ask this ...so i dood it here.


WHY? Just plain why?

Good grief!

smokeywolf

[dtknowles]

I don't remember when I did it or what gun or cartridge I used but I have shot a squib out that was stuck in the barrel using a primed case with a small charge of powder (normal powder). Would I do it again, it would depend on the details.

Tim

[dh2]

Sounds like an experiment that comes right behind "Hold my beer and watch this!"
putting unknown powder in any case and load it in any fire arm, not on my to do list

[220swiftfn]

Not to kick you when you're down, but do a search for "blown up guns", and you'll see why this getting the reactions it is (keep in mind that those pics are of what has happened with KNOWN powder, with burning rates MUCH slower...)


This is the same as someone asking "how many grains of blank powder should I use with a 148gr wadcutter?"

Now, the easiest way to not have a "no powder/squib", is to LOOK in the case before you seat the bullet. If you're not comfortable with eyeballing the level of a small charge of gunpowder in the bottom of the case, use Trailboss.



Dan

[Elkins45]

To quote Bill Engvald or Jeff Foxworthy (I forget which): "You ever notice that you never meet a WOMAN who's missing a finger?"

Bad idea.

[Wayne Smith]

Once again, a little historical research will answer the question. Look up the Volcanic cartridges. Smith and Wesson and Winchester both failed. I doubt you will succeed.

[imashooter2]

This is powder designed to rupture pretty stoutly constructed cardboard tubes in very small amounts. Putting it into a metal tube seems like a fool's errand.

[Oreo]

The energy density and burn rate of flash powder are known to be way too high for use in loading cartridges. What that translates to is that even if you could establish a known safe charge weight, the weight difference between a charge that would squib and one that would blow your gun and fingers to bits may not even register on your scale / powder measure.

This is the very essence of why we select smokeless powders carefully depending on cartridge application. Even under the best circumstances with powder chemistry designed for a particular cartridge we follow strictly within established safe charge weights with bare minimum deviation.

Don't do it. BAD JUJU!

[GhostHawk]

Oreo nailed it, Flashpowder is designed to flash and report, not push heavy lead boolits.

Black powder has much more PUSH, less flash and worthless bang, much more useful.

OP be careful, idea's like that can get you hurt, badly.

[Smoke4320]

Another hey mom watch this followed by a new episode of 1000 ways to die

[JSnover]

Just use an empty, primed case.
I've done exactly that with 6" .357, twice. The loads were very light, possibly empty cases (I was a newbie and it was a long time ago). The cleaning rod/hammer method sucked. I decided if this was common with light loads there had to be a better way. I added two primed cases to my range bag after that and they worked perfectly the next time it happened, spitting the squibs out.
Mozeppa, In a .38, all you need is a magnum primer. Do not experiment with unknown propellants, with a bullet already stuck in the barrel.

[rbuck351]

I done a few things that scare most folks but that one scares even me. That stuff is really fast and corrosive.

[44man]

Funniest thing I did with an M100 or cherry bomb, don't remember. I shot a 30# carp with a bow and stuck the fire cracker in it's gills, lit it and let him go. Got a ways out and it looked like a depth charge, blew the head clean off.

[mrbill2]

116313 He use to shoot left-hand!!!

[Pilgrim]

Pressures can increase incredibly fast, to unbelievable levels when it is contained like in a cartridge case. Most powders (and I suspect "flash powders" follow this pattern) wil burn faster & hotter as the pressure & temperature increases. I think fooling with this type of EXPLOSIVE (!!) in an attempt to satisfy your curiosity is a major step towards qualifying for one of the "Darwin Awards". Please don't do this, or even think about doing this. It is highly likely you will hurt yourself and destroy a nice firearm. In addition it will give the "anti's" another way to attack us firearm enthusiasts.

I'm not pounding on you while you are down because I've thought about these sorts of things myself. Among other things, I'm a nuclear engineer, and formerly NRC licensed to operate a research nuclear reactor. Not to make this any longer than necessary, I wish every one of us could have seen this machine in operation to begin to get an appreciation of how fast things can get out of hand, and how large the resulting "bang" can be. This reactor was designed to "pulse" to very high power levels for a very short time. We routinely pulsed this reactor to 2,000,000,000 watts. It happened so fast as to be difficult to believe. From the time we started the pulse, it took about 1/5 of a second to get started. In the next 1/100th of a second the power increased 2000 times the starting power. I am sorry if I bored anyone here, but chemical as well as nuclear reactions can be so fast as to make yourself ask "did that really happen?", "did I really see that?". Often you have to see it multiple times for your mind to grasp what really happened. Please, you can go from healthy and happy to maimed or worse faster than you can grasp what was going on. Be careful of chemical reactions you don't understand. Asking before experimenting was wise. FWIW Pilgrim

[mozeppa]

jeez o pete guys!

don't look down or type down at me.

i just said "what if"

i'm not gonna do it.

but tell me....those who think i'm a fool or at least "fool" hardy...please tell me oh high and mighty sage thinkers...
which of YOU have not thought about something simular to this or worse?

isn't this how we got the flame thrower? ...hand grenade?....mortars?....rockets?...missles?
WHY OH WHY would anyone be so foolish or stupid as to even think about experimenting with those?

why any of those would qualify for a darwin award or at least a "hey ya'll ..watch this".


another hey mom....why oh why good grief!

[Oreo]

No one is talking down to you. We warn out of love and desire for you to avoid injury.

There are ways of mitigating disaster for this type of experimentation. If you're willing to sacrifice a gun for the cause and have a vice to lock the gun in, cover to hide behind and test fire with a long string tied to the trigger... by all means go right ahead and do post the video so the rest of us can marvel at the result with you. Just please be smart about it. I really hate it every time someone posts a gory picture of someone's mangled hand. Yuck! We get it!

[dubber123]

jeez o pete guys!

don't look down or type down at me.

i just said "what if"

i'm not gonna do it.

but tell me....those who think i'm a fool or at least "fool" hardy...please tell me oh high and mighty sage thinkers...
which of YOU have not thought about something simular to this or worse?

isn't this how we got the flame thrower? ...hand grenade?....mortars?....rockets?...missles?
WHY OH WHY would anyone be so foolish or stupid as to even think about experimenting with those?

why any of those would qualify for a darwin award or at least a "hey ya'll ..watch this".


another hey mom....why oh why good grief!

Don't take it too seriously. MOST mean well, and are concerned about the dangers of what you propose. Some don't even take the time to grasp what your are saying, but rather pile on, just because everyone else is, and it makes them feel smart. You are right, without experimentation, we would have NOTHING. Sometimes it works, and we all learn, sometimes you lose a finger in the process of finding out it was a bad idea. Necessity is the mother of invention, and in this case, you don't have the necessity part, just curiosity.

I would be concerned about the super fast burn rate, and the likely batch to batch variances in the powder in question. I am not above experimentation at all, and did it recently to disprove some of the naysayers. I don't think I will take this one on though.. :)

[JSnover]

Hey, we were just worried. A lot of us have made mistakes. I did the homemade firecracker thing when i was a kid and damn near lost a finger.

[bangerjim]

For ever one like you asking.......there are probably a dozen out there that will NOT ask and just go ahead and do it! That's why we warn harshly against really stupid ideas. We do not need any more people in this country on the dole due to injuries and disabilities.

Shoot safely.....use ONLY tested methods and loads......buy ONLY known powders. And yes, they ARE out there and available today.

banger

[RED333]

I tell my kids "Do not even act like your are thinking about it",
and I was easy on ya.

[xs11jack]

Rockets, handgrenades, and flamethrowers were developed in safe conditions in laboratories by people that knew a lot about the chemistry of the explosives.
Ole Jack

[country gent]

Controlled labratory testing is much diffrent than backyard experimentation. Much better saftey systems are in place and much more theroy calculating normally. With modern testing now a computer with all the pertinant data and proper programs will run a safe simulation of the results before hand. A lot of planning theroy and simulations take place before it even gets to the trial stages. Wasnt trying to talk down was hoping to save an accident

[leeggen]

Make sure your life insurance and your medical insurance is paid to the date you are thinking of doing this. If vidioed make sure next of kin will post results.
CD

[Magana559]

Flash powder will not move that bullet one inch. It's designed as a burst charge in fireworks and most definitely will blow a nice hole in your gun/face/hand.

use a brass rod to pound it out.

AGAIN DO NOT USE FLASH POWDER IN YOUR GUN!

[dubber123]

Rockets, handgrenades, and flamethrowers were developed in safe conditions in laboratories by people that knew a lot about the chemistry of the explosives.
Ole Jack

Actually, I don't think any one of these was developed in a lab. Rockets and likely hand grenades by the ancient Chinese, and the flamethrower by the ancient Romans. All likely bad ideas at the time, that somehow managed to work nonetheless.

[Cadillo]

116313 He use to shoot left-hand!!!

So what's the story behind that?

[DrCaveman]

When messing around with boomers as a lad, i found piccolo pete powder and dumped black cats to light up nicely with just a cannon fuse and a "fairly sealed" metal container, varying from old threaded film canisters to plumbing parts.

The powder obtained from disassembly of shotgun shells/22lr rounds did not light from the same ignition situation. Duds

Fast forward a bunch of years, and now i load smokeless cartridges. These powders take a LOT more to get lit. I think this means what everyone is saying: flash powder is REALLY fast, and maybe one could develop a load for a tiny tiny super high pressure cartridge, with just a dab of the stuff... But it would be touchy, to say the least. Best get a very accurate scale

Hey, what about that 9mm that jerry miculek was shooting? A custom 686, if i recall... Probably some thick chamber walls, and the 9mm is already a very high pressure round... Sounds like a test platform! (from a vice, pulling trigger with a string, preferably)

[303Guy]

Would that flash powder be any different from primers?

I once stuck an air rifle pellet in the bore of my Mini 14 from just a primer so I added a tiny amount of shotgun powder to a pellet-less case and shot the stuck pellet out. I would be very hesitant in trying that same trick with a boolit stuck in the bore. I simply would not try it. The little experience I've had with fast powders is that things happen in that large, cavernous case while the boolit is still in the neck that would make me not want anything faster in there. Think detonation as opposed to combustion. Rifle, shotgun and pistol propellants burn. Powders do not detonate but the primer does (I think they do?) Some of us actually choose primers with less power because we find they work better (not always, some powders need magnum primers) so I see no reason to add something that detonates.

Not pulling the idea down, mind you. It was a hypothetical question title "goofy idea" with a request for opinions/thoughts. Fair question to my mind. My answer is I would want to find out in one of my guns and not while I was anywhere nearby. However, there are some crazy dudes out there that do test crazy ideas, especially those that go boom. Myth Busters. Gotta love those guys!

[dudel]

Why? When a wooden dowel/brass rod works and is much safer.

[dondiego]

I'll do the test for you! I have the flash powder. Send me your firearm and.................

[Spector]

I keep an old stethoscope in my reloading room. Tells me quickly if I forgot to load powder, but not how much powder, or if it is a compressed load of powder, or what kind of powder. I have tried to compare one load against another to see if they make the same sound when agitated back and forth, fore to aft. I haven't ever been able to get that down pat so I just use it for determining the presence of a non-compressed powder charge. It is better to just stay focused in the first place, but a stethoscope can serve a limited purpose in determining the presence of a powder charge.

[starmac]

My take on the thread was had anybody worked up a usuable load using powder out of fire crackers, not to shoot a squib out. My question is why would a guy want too, even if it wasn't dangerous, it would seem to be a lot of work, compared to using powder made for the purpose.

Like Smokeywolf said WHY WHY WHY.

[220swiftfn]

My take on the thread was had anybody worked up a usuable load using powder out of fire crackers, not to shoot a squib out. My question is why would a guy want too, even if it wasn't dangerous, it would seem to be a lot of work, compared to using powder made for the purpose.

Like Smokeywolf said WHY WHY WHY.


What gets me about this is the OP's thought that this could prevent a squib load, which is exactly the opposite of what would happen. Squibs happen due to failing to see a non-existant SMALL charge of powder in the bottom of the case, so logically, an absolutely MINISCULE one would make things "much more better", hence my suggestion for Trailboss.......


Dan

[Digital Dan]

Well, if only to beat a dead horse?

Never have I pondered using anything other than gunpowder for launching bullets, be it black or smokeless. A point sometimes unknown, or sometimes ignored: Smokeless powder is a propellent, BP a low velocity explosive. There is a distinct difference between the two and what their pressure curve looks like in a firearm. Primers contain an explosive mix at well, but it is quite small of course.

One of the points danced around in this discussion but not properly described is called quickness. Burn rates of powders are generally understood by shooters as a comparative measure of how fast smokeless powder burns when evaluated against other powders. What most don't understand is what happens within the cartridge as heat and pressure increase. Smokeless burns faster in a progressive manner, ie., the higher the pressure the faster it burns. This measure is called quickness. Explosives on the other hand, burn fast regardless of environment, that includes black powder to C4. Truth is that things generally understood to be explosives, such as TNT, dynamite etc, can and have been used to launch bullets, but it is a tedious and dangerous process to undertake.

During WW2 Filipino insurgents did just that while fighting the Japanese, but it cost them quite a few precious rifles to figure out what would work, and even then the first use of such loads was directed at capturing enemy arms and ammo in virtually every case.

It all boils down not so much to what we can do, but what we should do. With other options available for which definitive load information is available, I see no reason whatsoever to attempt or consider the use of flash powder for loading ammo. From all appearances it seems that it does however serve well in splitting stumps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfuQO_2LiMc

[kerreckt]

Don't try it. I have experience with flash powder(s)/ improvised munitions. Very unpredictable. Friction, shock and things we usually don't think about can come into play in the worst way.

[jonp]

I'd use it in a compressed load in a 45 Colt to see what happens......or not.......

[9.3X62AL]

Questions and threads of this sort tend to appear here and elsewhere more frequently during times of "shortage" or "outage" of conventional components. The question itself isn't dangerous, nor is the discussion that flows from that question......but to act upon some of the queries posted in this vein could be REALLY BAD IDEAS. As always, it is good to remember that we are harnessing substantial forces when we set about reloading ammunition, even with known & established formulae. Care and caution never go out of style in this hobby field.

[10x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCDtUkUX2ks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCDtUkUX2ks

[mozeppa]

wow!... did i ever open a can of worms!

allow me to be very clear.

in my original post, what i was trying to say was that primers have enough power to
move a bullet forward enough to lodge it in the barrel....and that most of us know this to be true.

then i cited the good old 38 spl. as our hypothetical gun.
i went on further to say "what if" we used flash powder from fire crackers as a propellant.
mind you... i said "what if".
at this point there has been off the rails commenting on my post.

some well wishers begging me to "please!...don't do it!"
some others commenting that my thoughts on the idea was foolish, foolhardy
and "why why why would you do such a thing when there are proper components to be bought and used."

allow me to be without any doubt very clear on this....
I won't attempt this ...and never seriously
even thought about trying this.
how it degraded into me shooting a squib out a barrel ....i really don't know.
i didn't have any thoughts on dis-lodging a squib by using flash powder and another case & primer.

i value my guns and body parts too much for that.
i pound them out with a brass rod and a rawhide hammer.
where this though came from?...i was surfing youtube and came across a video of people re-building primers
by using strike anywhere matches and toy cap gun caps.

i thought it was ingenious that it could be done.

the youtube guy was talking about "if primers were no longer made due to political agendas...what could the shooter do?"
answer: you rebuild the primer. (with whatever materials that you have available in these tough times.)


to quote 9.3x62al who i think gets what i'm saying and responded with this:
Questions and threads of this sort tend to appear here and elsewhere more frequently during times of "shortage" or "outage" of conventional components. The question itself isn't dangerous, nor is the discussion that flows from that question......but to act upon some of the queries posted in this vein could be REALLY BAD IDEAS. As always, it is good to remember that we are harnessing substantial forces when we set about reloading ammunition, even with known & established formulae. Care and caution never go out of style in this hobby field.

again .....i'm smarter than this...and i'd never do it.

i just said "what if"

i'm 60 years old and worked in many machine shops ...and wood shops.
i own and run indy billiards service.
i've built many things out of wood, metal and plastics.
i've built 100's of pool tables by hand 1 or 2 at a time.

how does these statements qualify me for anything you ask?

easy. i've been around , thru and in some very dangerous situations in my 60 years.

here is my "safety" qualification..... I STILL HAVE 20/13 VISION....I STILL HAVE ALL 10 FINGERS.

I'M probably more safe in my daily life than many here that think i'm foolish for even thinking up such a taboo thought.

what about the guy here who made his own black powder?
where's the "why why why when theres proper powders on the shelf to be bought."?

i thought he was damn genius!

again.............and finally.

I won't be trying to use flash powder in any gun.

[303Guy]

Not for one moment did I ever suspect that you might be actually considering trying it. 8-)

I am however, guilty of introducing shooting out a stuck projectile. [smilie=1: It was a 1 gr (more or less) air rifle pellet that could be blown out with a bicycle pump, let alone being pushed out with a cleaning rod and it was just past the throat. Doing that with a stuck boolit would be just silly. But if one does the math, one would see it would take a fair charge of powder to over-pressure a gun with said stuck boolit/bullet. Pressure spikes would the real danger. Well, the other danger being if there is not enough pressure to move the stuck boolit the gun would have to be concreted up and dropped in the ocean. How would one open a bolt with a chamber still under pressure? Plus one would never know when the boolit might suddenly shoot out so you cant drill a venting hole through the boolit. A jacketed bullet would likely leak and relieve the pressure but how would you know? So no, never attempt to fire a stuck boolit out.

There was one reported instance in which a revolver was fired once a year on new years day. Then one year the owner decided to clean his gun or something and found an obstruction in the bore. The gunsmith found one boolit for every year!

Hey, your thread has been quite a hit. Just see how many reads it has had. Many of those were mine - I keep coming back to see the latest comments. :-D It is the kind of thing I'd like to see mythbusters put to the test. And they couldn't get the flash powder to blow up the gun they would put something in it that would! :mrgreen:

[mozeppa]

Hey, your thread has been quite a hit. Just see how many reads it has had. Many of those were mine - I keep coming back to see the latest comments. :-D It is the kind of thing I'd like to see mythbusters put to the test. And they couldn't get the flash powder to blow up the gun they would put something in it that would! :mrgreen:

yeah...i'm a star :groner: