Replica Trapdoor Vs Replica 1874 Sharps

[Akheloce]

Well, my oil dividend check is coming up, and I've decided on spending it on either a Pedersoli Trapdoor Springfield Rifle, or a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Long Range Target.

My home range is currently 700 yards, possibly being extended to 1000 next year. This will be a primarily home shooting rifle, with the rare possibility of an organized BPCR shooter.

I have a desire to own shooter grade rifles of US military origins, but I also would put long range shootability higher on my priorities.

What are the pros and cons of each
Why would you pick one over the other?



Thanks in advance

[M-Tecs]

I love trapdoors but not for BPCR. I don't own any Pedersoli's. The weight of the Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Long Range Target will be better suited for heavy bullets. TD has to be cleaned from the muzzle.

[Hiwall55]

Yes,buy the 1874 I had one and it's a nice rifle , very accurate too.

[NSB]

The Trapdoor has a weaker action and must be loaded to the lowest pressures. The Sharps will take up to 27,000 psi, which is the next strongest. For long range shooting the Sharps in a heavy, longer barrel can't be beat. I've owned three Pedersoli Sharps rifles and they are unbelievably accurate. With good sights I could pretty consistently get 1moa off the bench and there are others who do better than that. I'd vote for the Sharps.

[country gent]

One thing to watch for on pendersolis long range rifle with heavy 34" barrel is its overall wieght as some models are over the limit for NRA sanctioned matches. I have a pendersoli 74 sharps long range 34" half octagon barrel model. Its a great shooter perfoms very well and looks very good. But is close to 10 ounces over wieght limit. Handle the diffrent models if posible and see whats comfortable. Wieght is great for taming recoil but in shillouettes theres is an offhand stage that also can be an issue with a to heavy rifle. The SHarps is easier to clean than the trapdoor , better log range sights are available for the sharps also. The trapdoor is a fine old rifle and a ball to shoot and play with. The sharps set up is more user friendly.

[MikeT]

Of the two, the Sharps is the best option for LR shooting. The Pedersoli has a very good barrel, but the tang sight needs to be replaced.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[steamerjames]

Do not buy a replica Trapdoor , the locking cam is held on the shaft with a SETSREW. On the originals it in ONE PIECE with the shaft. Ever heard of the Semi-Automatic Trapdoor? Fire gun, breech opens and throws case in your face. That's what happens when the setscrew gets loose. I do not like a 1874 Sharps because if you do not have double set triggers you get a #10 trigger pull if you are lucky.. The back action lock is a bad design. I'd rather have a rolling block.

[M-Tecs]

The cam issue is mostly with H&R replica's from the 70's and it is easily fixed. Pedersoli purchased the H&R tooling and the early Pedersoli TD's shared the H&R cam issue. I do not know this for a fact but I have read that Pedersoli fixed the cam issue years 8 or 10 years ago.

SAAMI spec for .45-70 is 28,000 psi regardless of which rifle is used. Some loading manuals recommendation for Trapdoor and other "group I" actions is 18,000, which is a moderate black powder pressure since this was what those guns were designed for. Hodgdon lists 28,000 as max for TD's

At the end of the TD development Springfield was experimenting with 30/40 chambering at 40,000 psi. The TD action is far strong than most give it credit for.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-197798.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?61694-Trapdoor-Strength

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/164059-max-c-u-p-pressure-1873-springfield-trapdoor-45-70-a.html

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

30/40 repro

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/experimental-30-40-trapdoor-springfield-repro-video/

[varsity07840]

I love trapdoors but not for BPCR. I don't own any Pedersoli's. The weight of the Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Long Range Target will be better suited for heavy bullets. TD has to be cleaned from the muzzle.

A TD can be cleaned from the breech with a delrin rod.

Duane

[M-Tecs]

A TD can be cleaned from the breech with a delrin rod.

Duane

Didn't know about these http://www.arizonasharpshooters.com/1794.html

Thanks

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I like my Pedersoli Sharps (or the Hiwall) because the caming action will seat a boolit into the rifling

Top to Bottom - 45/70, 45/90, 50/70, 50/90 and 40/65,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture001-2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Picture001-2.jpg.html)

BTW, Pedersoli no longer makes the 40/65, 50/70 nor 50/90

[John in PA]

There must be different Delrin rods than the one I got. While flexible enough to clear a sight, it really doesn't want to go in the breech of a TD. YMMV. Better be sure before spending your $.

Also, to comment on your original question, if you'd like a trapdoor capable of reasonably accurate long range shooting, why not look for an original with a bright bore and a buffington sight? That Buffington rear sight is one of the finest sights ever put on a US military rifle. Adjustable for windage and elevation, with a RH drift correction built right into the sight for long range. The Army did tons of experimentation with the .45-70, 500gr load in developing that sight. They shoot as well today as they did 130 years ago!

[varsity07840]

There must be different Delrin rods than the one I got. While flexible enough to clear a sight, it really doesn't want to go in the breech of a TD. YMMV. Better be sure before spending your $.

Also, to comment on your original question, if you'd like a trapdoor capable of reasonably accurate long range shooting, why not look for an original with a bright bore and a buffington sight? That Buffington rear sight is one of the finest sights ever put on a US military rifle. Adjustable for windage and elevation, with a RH drift correction built right into the sight for long range. The Army did tons of experimentation with the .45-70, 500gr load in developing that sight. They shoot as well today as they did 130 years ago!

I bought mine from Arizona Sharpshooters.

Duane

[fouronesix]

+1 on finding an original TD with excellent bore. As to which- TD or 1874 Sharps? They are so different in design that'd be a choice of personal taste. Not hard finding an original TD 84 or 88 with fine bore and Buffington sight for $800-1500 range. No way to find a comparable original 1874 Sharps for anything less than 10x that amount. Toss up $ on better grades of either design (or even throw in the rolling block) in modern replica forms.

Both designs (TD or Sharps) will chamber a round with leverage or camming to seat a bullet into the lands for best accuracy with certain loads.

For cleaning/swabbing either one (including many single shots and lever guns)-- very simple. Turn upside down in a cradle, use a muzzle guide and clean from the muzzle. That way all the junk falls out of the action and not into it. Always surprises me why more folks don't clean many action types this way.

[prsman23]

I picked up a trapdoor with no bore to speak of for $300.
Going to get the barrel relined here in a few weeks. That's your best bet really.

(If you want an original for not a ton of coin)
I have a Shiloh sharps and like others have said they are both VERY different rifles.

[Akheloce]

Well folks, thanks for the input!

I think that based on my needs and wants, the 1874 it is. It's a little disappointing that the Long Range Target is too heavy for BPCR, but shooting my own steel at home is my main priority.

Someday, I'd love to have an original TD, but the half dozen examples I've seen up here are in rough shape, and the sellers want a premium ($2000-$3000). I'd prefer not to buy an original without having hands and eyes on (over the Internet). For now, an accurate shooter is the priority.

[varsity07840]

Well folks, thanks for the input!

I think that based on my needs and wants, the 1874 it is. It's a little disappointing that the Long Range Target is too heavy for BPCR, but shooting my own steel at home is my main priority.

Someday, I'd love to have an original TD, but the half dozen examples I've seen up here are in rough shape, and the sellers want a premium ($2000-$3000). I'd prefer not to buy an original without having hands and eyes on (over the Internet). For now, an accurate shooter is the priority.

You've been looking in the wrong places if a seller wants $2,000-$3,000 for a TD. TDs with a decent bore can easily be had for $800-$900. Less than that if the bore needs a reline. Relining a TD is a good option since it allows you to get your bore size down to .458, which makes bullet selection alot easier. Here's a great source for TDs with good bores. I bought mine from Al about ten years ago for $745.00

Duane
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/springfieldarms.html

[Dan Cash]

AK, you have a number of good responses to your question. I would like to add a couple more favoring the Sharps for long range. If you can, buy your Pedersolli without sights and with a 30 inch barrel, 32 inch maximum. Kelly makes the best front sights and Hoke, MVA, Kelly and others built premium rear sights, all in the $500 range. With 34 inch barrels, it is hard to make NRA weight if that is important and many bullets do not carry enough lube to control fouling in that length. I shoot a lot of long range (1000 to 1200) with a 30 inch Sharps with success commensurate with my ability. A 34 inch barrel might help when shooting a mile but I have not tried that yet. Trap door rifles are fun but not competitive with other pattern breach loading rifles.

[Akheloce]

Thanks again for the responses.

Interesting about the barrel length, I didn't think about the lube aspect. The one I was looking at is 34", but there are other 30-32" models. I certainly plan on aftermarket sights.

Thanks for the link on the TD's. Youre right, I was looking in the wrong places. I've been hung up on a FTF transaction for used rifles, and the market up here is limited. There seems to be a few very nice rifles from Al. I think that for now, I'll stick with the 1874, with the TD on my future list.

[M-Tecs]

If a TD is on the future list I would recommend GunBrokers. If you are patient you still can find some very nice TD's for fair prices. TD collecting is still relatively affordable if you stay away from the carbines. I got lucky on two very nice TD's and a original Winchester 1885 but I may have bid on 50 before I got what I wanted for the price I wanted.

I have some parts for a Gemmer style and one of these http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/Targetized.html

Nice Gemmer style TD 50/70 here http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1267402566/13

[montana_charlie]

Thanks again for the responses.

Interesting about the barrel length, I didn't think about the lube aspect. The one I was looking at is 34", but there are other 30-32" models. I certainly plan on aftermarket sights.
I have a Pedersoli Sharps which I bought 'used'.
But, if I were going to buy a new one today, it would be this, from Dixie Gun Works.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=981&osCsid=bbdvehk0i31nn987lvm4a2fla1

CM

[varsity07840]

If a TD is on the future list I would recommend GunBrokers. If you are patient you still can find some very nice TD's for fair prices. TD collecting is still relatively affordable if you stay away from the carbines. I got lucky on two very nice TD's and a original Winchester 1885 but I may have bid on 50 before I got what I wanted for the price I wanted.

I have some parts for a Gemmer style and one of these http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/Targetized.html

Nice Gemmer style TD 50/70 here http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1267402566/13

My Gemmer

Duane

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae279/dspyer/DSCN0415-2_zps452673ce.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/dspyer/media/DSCN0415-2_zps452673ce.jpg.html)

[M-Tecs]

Very nice!!!! Thanks for posting the pictures.

[fouronesix]

Akheloce,
If in the future you get an original TD rifle with Buffington sight, you'll need to replace the front blade with a taller one to be anywhere near zero at 50-100 yds using the lower peep on the Buffington staff. Very easy to fashion from a piece of +/- .060" mild sheet steel, a hacksaw, file and drill. Height from top of barrel to top of blade for this is about .450" as pictured.

[451 Pete]

Just as a point of information there is a difference in the weight limits allowed in black powder cartridge silhouette competition and black powder long range. In silhouette 12 pounds 2 ounces is the maximum weight for a rifle, in the long range black powder rifle competition it is 15 pounds. Both of these weights are for the rifle including sights or as shot.

Pete

[dualsport]

In BPCR silhouette matches do the Trapdoors compete with all else or is there a different class?

[montana_charlie]

Akheloce,
If you are still reading ... and still looking for a Sharps ...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254320-Pedersoli-Sharps-1874-Target-Model

[Akheloce]

Akheloce,
If you are still reading ... and still looking for a Sharps ...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254320-Pedersoli-Sharps-1874-Target-Model

Dang it!

That's exactly what I want, and a great price.

Sadly, life got in the way. More specifically, the transmission went out in my truck. :(

My present to me, courtesy of Prudhoe Bay, is going to be fixing my truck instead of a new rifle. (This just happened last night towing the Rhino and firewood back to the house). Made some calls, and I can get a low mile transmission for about the same price as a Sharps. Will save a few hundred in labor by doing the change by myself.

[Southron]

Heck, the Sharps action is so strong, a version of it is used in artillery pieces to this day.

Have owned both a Sharps and a Trapdoor.

There is no contest....the Pedersoli Sharps is the "Rolls Royce" or replica arms!

[Akheloce]

Well, took a while too get the cash, but a new Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Long Range is sitting on my dining room table. On sale at Cabelas and with military discount, $1615 out the door.

She sure is pretty, can't wait for my range to melt and dry out! Also need to find a better mold. My Lee 457-500 GC isn't going to cut it, I'm thinking a Lyman Postell.
135655

[country gent]

The Lyman postell is a good bullet and worth looking into. I would give the Lee a try and see what it actually does you might be surprised. The lyman 457125 ( 510 grn round nose) is also a solid performer in most rifles. Work with "softer alloies" if using black powder. I just got a 45 cal 547 grn Shillouette bullet from old west moulds thats performing very well in my 1-18 twist barrels. Another trick is to buy some cast bullets from black powder suppliers and test then buy the moidl for it.

[StrawHat]

...Well, took a while too get the cash, but a new Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Long Range is sitting on my dining room table...

Glad things worked out and you were able to get one of your choices. Keep us posted on your progress with it.

Kevin

[SSGOldfart]

I grow up shooting a 1873 Springfield trap door, so my vote goes to a fine old 45/70 or 45/90 trap door yes she was heavy but the Oldman wanted us to learn to shoot the right way, I even hunted squirrels& such with it using #5 or #6 2.5" 410 shells. Guess I'll be looking to replace this retired Springfield some day too Good luck

[montana_charlie]

Also need to find a better mold.If you would be interested in a PGT mould, the bullet designed specifically for the Pedersoli Sharps, we can have a PM conversation.

CM

[John Allen]

If it was me. I would find an original trapdoor with a clean barrel and shoot it with blackpowder and one of the hollow base bullets. I would get the buffington sight version. If you do not want to screw with an older gun grab a repo sharps.

[John Allen]

My Gemmer

Duane

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae279/dspyer/DSCN0415-2_zps452673ce.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/dspyer/media/DSCN0415-2_zps452673ce.jpg.html)

Duanne, that gemmer is beautiful. I want one of these bad.

[Don McDowell]

You might want to take Montana Charlie up on his offer if he has one of the ptg moulds for sale. Otherwise I'ld suggest going with a .460 diameter bullet from one of several mould makers. Doubtful the Lyman will drop that large.

[Akheloce]

Well, as I dig more into the rifle, I have a few issues. First, as I was looking how to adjust the set triggers (the set must've been 20 lbs), a ran into a major problem... The screw broke! I have a Weaver gunsmith screwdriver set with hollow ground bits. I matched the slot perfectly with a bit, gave a 1/4 turn cclockwise (maybe 30 inch-lbs) and the set screw chunked out.

I disassembled the action, removed the flat spring, and extracted the set screw from the top of the bottom metal.
The set screw is 27 pitch, but is now 8-32 with a stainless steel Allen set screw. (Hate having to Bubba it already, but it sits below flush and isn't noticeable).

Second, the supplied tang sight leaves a bit to be desired. The play in the vertical adjustment screw is like a 68' Mack truck's steering wheel. Also, the tang has to be tilted forward to see the front sight. This might be my eyes, or I might be just using it wrong (wouldn't be the first time ).

Overall, I'm still happy with it, just disappointed in those few issues.

[rfd]

i don't like the springfield trap doors because of the muzzle-only access for cleaning. nor do i like the trap door action. just a personal thing.

pedersoli makes an outstanding bpcr set of long range rifle offerings. besides the venerable '74 sharps platform, do also consider the pedersoli remington rolling block replicas. i have the bodine and will highly recommend it, but their adobe walls model might be the better choice - both sport double set triggers, too. rolling blocks are very easy to maintain and work, perhaps the easiest of all actions save a break open. aside from any custom rollers, i don't know of any production rolling blocks offered that are better than the pedersoli line up. besides, "rollers rule" 8-) [smilie=1: :drinks:

in any event, carefully think about your long range requirements, the attributes of each action and model type, consider the cartridge and its plus/minus features, consider ALL the support gear you'll need, then unlock the piggy bank. :)

my bodine before swapping the tang for a lee shaver soule vernier ...

http://i.imgur.com/t4Er885.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HCBHYqn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gpkoqvl.jpg

[rfd]

I have a Pedersoli Sharps which I bought 'used'.
But, if I were going to buy a new one today, it would be this, from Dixie Gun Works.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=981&osCsid=bbdvehk0i31nn987lvm4a2fla1

CM

that's an outstanding rifle. imho, pedersoli Rules for both quality and value in firearms. i just bought this pedi sharps silhouette in .40-65 from dgw ...

http://i.imgur.com/VOui4WK.jpg

[rfd]

Akheloce,

dang, i missed seeing that you got a pedi sharps - conrats!

bummer to hear about the set screw bugger up, but it sounds like ya made a good fix none-the-less.

yes, the pedi tang vernier is serviceable, but that's about it. i replaced that same tang sight on my bodine roller with a lee shaver soule vernier with the all important hadley eye cup (get one!). so much better now.

[montana_charlie]

Well, as I dig more into the rifle, I have a few issues. First, as I was looking how to adjust the set triggers (the set must've been 20 lbs), a ran into a major problem... The screw broke! I have a Weaver gunsmith screwdriver set with hollow ground bits. I matched the slot perfectly with a bit, gave a 1/4 turn cclockwise (maybe 30 inch-lbs) and the set screw chunked out.

I disassembled the action, removed the flat spring, and extracted the set screw from the top of the bottom metal.
When you adjust the set trigger, you change the front trigger travel required to drop the hammer, but you do not change the weight of the trigger pull.

The Pedersoli set trigger assembly has two adjustment screws.
Which one did you break?

CM

[Akheloce]

When you adjust the set trigger, you change the front trigger travel required to drop the hammer, but you do not change the weight of the trigger pull.

The Pedersoli set trigger assembly has two adjustment screws.
Which one did you break?

CM

The rear one. I attempted to loosen it to set it just above keeping the hammer cocked.

[montana_charlie]

The rear one. I attempted to loosen it to set it just above keeping the hammer cocked.
I suspected that.
If you examine the side of your trigger bar (lower tang) you will probably find a setscrew in the side which locks that rear adjustment screw in position.
The instructions mention that it is present "in some rifles".

Now, that you have drilled and tapped the screw hole, you have cut the 8-32 threads into the end of that (hidden) setscrew.
That's why you can run the adjuster in and out without interference. But, if you ever try to loosen the setscrew (with the adjuster installed) it won't turn.

The setscrew exists because once the travel of that heavy spring is established by running the adjuster in to allow just a little play in the trigger, there should be no need to change that adjustment.

The "20-pound" trigger pull you mentioned must have been the resistance on the rear trigger.
That trigger works directly against a heavy spring, and can't be expected to be 'light'.
It has to have enough spring energy stored (when it's set) to fly up hard enough to trip the sear.

If you have no further questions about how to adjust the set trigger assembly, then press on with familiarization.

CM

[Akheloce]

I looked for the set screw, it doesn't have one that locks the vertical set screw in.

When I finally extracted it, there was a slight amount of either gunk or corrosion on the adjustment screw.

One i replaced the adjustment screw, I was able to adjust it to my satisfaction. Still a little stiff, but totally useable.