Michigan lifts firearm deer restrictions....a little.

[Charlie U.]

I just got my tags for this fall. I live in the lower Michigan zone that was formerly shotgun/handgun only....No rifles.

For 2014 they have modified the rifle restriction and are now calling it the "Limited Firearm Deer Zone". Rifles are Ok in this zone, but only if they are:

35cal. or larger
straight wall cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16" and maximum case length of 1.80"
air rifles of 35cal or larger using external high-compression sources.

Basically that means we can now use rifles, but only those that use pistol cartridges (.357mag up to 460 S&W)

I would love to lay my hands on a rifle in 460 S&W to take advantage of this restriction change, but they are not exactly common. Wish Marlin would re-introduce the XLR lever gun in 460 S&W. That would be perfect.

Any suggestions of rifles in this caliber that are not single shots? Is there such a thing as a factory bolt action or auto rifle in 460 S&W?

[Djones]

Edit: I missed the straight wall part. Sorry about that. Disregard the shortened 35 Remington below.

Here is a "factory" 460 S&W lever gun. Pretty salty.

http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-90-rifle-460-sandw-5/

Sounds the same as Indiana's current laws. I use a 35 Remington with brass shortened to 1.790".

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/1163FAEA-3BC8-4285-8E73-E0C178D75A4B_1.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/duckwhackercmon/media/1163FAEA-3BC8-4285-8E73-E0C178D75A4B_1.jpg.html)

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/2014-08/DA273339-4D57-444C-B6DF-49C411843A2F.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/duckwhackercmon/media/2014-08/DA273339-4D57-444C-B6DF-49C411843A2F.jpg.html)

[Djones]

Here is my alternative to a 460 S&W.

It is a 45-70 shortened to 1.79".

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/CE4D81E8-A581-483F-B1A9-BBA4197D3C67-424-000000355C8029F1_zpsf9ae6556.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/duckwhackercmon/media/CE4D81E8-A581-483F-B1A9-BBA4197D3C67-424-000000355C8029F1_zpsf9ae6556.jpg.html)

[Charlie U.]

....... a 45-70 shortened to 1.79".

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/CE4D81E8-A581-483F-B1A9-BBA4197D3C67-424-000000355C8029F1_zpsf9ae6556.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/duckwhackercmon/media/CE4D81E8-A581-483F-B1A9-BBA4197D3C67-424-000000355C8029F1_zpsf9ae6556.jpg.html)

A brilliantly simple solution. I like it.
How do they perform as far as accuracy compared to the full length cases?

[garandsrus]

I may try the same thing with a 38-55 case.

[Charlie U.]

I was kinda thinking it could work with the 444marlin as well.

[saidnuff]

I was kinda thinking it could work with the 444marlin as well. My nephew had a ruger in 44 mag that with a 240 gr keith over 21 gr 2400 should work great if Ruger still makes them.

[Djones]

A brilliantly simple solution. I like it.
How do they perform as far as accuracy compared to the full length cases?

I performed the load development a couple of years ago. This is a accurate 460-400L over 30.0 grains of H4198. Velocity is around 1250 FPS out of my 1895 cowboy. More speed can be had but I can put five of these into a 6" circle offhand at 100 yards.

[leftiye]

I was kinda thinking it could work with the 444marlin as well.

.445 Supermag.

[Matt_G]

Me personally, I would just use my Marlin in 44 Mag and probably just use 44 Specials in it.
Specifically Skeeters load of a 250 gr. Keith on top of 7.5 grs. of Unique.
Whitetails don't take a lot of killing...

[chuckbuster]

I'm just going to use my Marlin 1894 Cowboy in .41 Mag and call it good. I am in Jackson County, some of the biggest deer in the state but still ain't seen any that were bullet proof.

[fireball168]

I've sold one 450 Bushmaster Savage barrel to a Michigan customer this year, keep getting lots of inquiries them and the 50 Beowulf barrels - both fit into the requirements nicely.

In a bolt rifle instead of an AR-15, there isn't much if anything the 460 S&W has on the 450 Bushmaster.

[CastingFool]

I wonder if cutting down a 45-70 case to 1.79" as Djones suggested would be considered legal in MI.

[chuckbuster]

I wonder if cutting down a 45-70 case to 1.79" as Djones suggested would be considered legal in MI.

>.35 cal, Straight wall and under max case length so no reason it would not be.

Actually a .45-70 is legal in a Handgun since the Handgun rule does not limit the case length to the 1.8"

Copied straight from the current Mi. Regs
...

A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger andloaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot butcannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel andmagazine combined.








Kevin

[clintsfolly]

Going to use my 450marlinx1.8 In a Savage 110 LH. The plan at this time is to use a 500gr cast bullet to be able to seat the bullet into the throat. Clint

[runfiverun]

I may try the same thing with a 38-55 case.

use the 375 win case and it's called the 375 super mag or the 375 u.s.a. mag on the die set, the dies are spendy though.
I believe missionary 5155 has built a marlin in 414 super, and the 375 super cases will feed through the 375 marlin like butter [you'd need a shortened chamber though as they feed great but don't shoot well]
I'd imagine a 30-30 could be swapped over easy enough with just a barrel change I'm not familiar with the marlins internals to say yes or no though.

the rossi's in 454 casull and 480 ruger would be more than enough gun for this type of hunting and both are cast friendly.
there isn't a deer walking the earth that is gonna shrug off either round at nominal [pedestrian] velocity's with nominal boolit weights.
in fact I'd back both of them down and soften the alloy some, I use both a 45 colt [452664], and a 44 mag [429667] now and out to 100 yds deer are down in 20 steps or less.
no need to go all starry eyed over shooting a deer with some super creation when 9.5 grs of unique under a regular cast boolit will do what you need without a bunch of drama and gyrations.
sometimes I get super fancy and use a 429241 over 19.3 grs of 2400 in the 44, or put that much 2400 under the 454424 in the colt and crimp over the front drive band, somehow it makes me feel like I done better or tried harder or something, and the deer are just as dead.

[DougGuy]

Jeez are the deer there born with body armor? Henry Big Boy or any other rifle in .45 Colt with this boolit over 22.5gr H110 will take out any deer up there PLUS the tree he is hiding behind!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/b0365352-e008-4573-ae2e-859b8a99fe82_zps7c72c5cb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/b0365352-e008-4573-ae2e-859b8a99fe82_zps7c72c5cb.jpg.html)

[Djones]

Jeez are the deer there born with body armor? Henry Big Boy or any other rifle in .45 Colt with this boolit over 22.5gr H110 will take out any deer up there PLUS the tree he is hiding behind!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/b0365352-e008-4573-ae2e-859b8a99fe82_zps7c72c5cb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/b0365352-e008-4573-ae2e-859b8a99fe82_zps7c72c5cb.jpg.html)

No body armor on our deer just funny regulations!

i happened to have a 45-70 for target shooting down at friendship indiana. I wanted to use my own cast bullets for hunting here in indiana. I didn't have money to buy another rifle, so the 45-70 Libertarian was born.

Your Colt loads would work perfect here. They look good.

[JimA]

Jeez are the deer there born with body armor? Henry Big Boy or any other rifle in .45 Colt with this boolit over 22.5gr H110 will take out any deer up there PLUS the tree he is hiding behind!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/b0365352-e008-4573-ae2e-859b8a99fe82_zps7c72c5cb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/b0365352-e008-4573-ae2e-859b8a99fe82_zps7c72c5cb.jpg.html)

That looks suspiciously like the very load I'm going to be using... Will try to test it out on meat next Saturday in the early antlerless season. We have too many trees anyway.;)

[Charlie U.]

I'm just going to use my Marlin 1894 Cowboy in .41 Mag and call it good. I am in Jackson County, some of the biggest deer in the state but still ain't seen any that were bullet proof.

My interest in the 460S&W has nothing to do with some misconception of whitetail toughness.

The rule changes that allow us the limited use of rifles has the potential for something that will have a flatter trajectory and greater range than shotguns. Sure, I could use a lever gun like your Marlin in .357, .41mag, and 44mag. However, those calibers don't offer me any greater reach than my 12guage slug gun using sabots.

If you are happy with the .41mag then God bless you, enjoy the hunt. I am interested in finding the flattest shooting caliber possible within the goofy limitations they have imposed on us. That's why I opened the thread asking about the 460S&W....it's the most rifle-like pistol caliber I know of.

Sorry, I should have explained that in my opening post.

[nagantguy]

Only thing this changes for me is that my little girl.shoots the 94- 44 better than the 20 guage slug gun. That and the price of a Ruger 10/44 I was locked into some serious haggeling over with a buddy just went up in value; as far as he's concerned anyhow, and the value of my trade goods went down by the same %

[Charlie U.]

I wonder if cutting down a 45-70 case to 1.79" as Djones suggested would be considered legal in MI.

I guess it would. The rules specify limitations based upon case length. No mention is made to rifle type or chamber dimensions so as long as your wildcat case meets the measurements you should be OK. Legally they would have nothing to ding you with.

Of course, I'm no expert. That's just my guess.

[9.3X62AL]

Those Ruger 44 Mag autoloaders can be a little ammo-sensitive. One of the later leverguns (Model 96/44, now out of print) or bolt rifles (77/44, still made or recently dropped) is likely a better expenditure, and both use a detachable spool magazine like the 10/22s. My own rifle that would work in this venue is a RiceChester Model 92 in 44 Mag, and it's a dandy. Miroku makes NICE repros.

[wallenba]

Hornady FTX case, is shorter than standard. Just trim more work up load. DNR might balk, but what the hey... their rules. Michigan is following Ohio's lead on this. A 357 magnum is enough, 357 maximum, better.

45-70 handgun http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8052278/revolvers-for-sale/century-arms-model-100-.45-70-revolver

[nagantguy]

Nice to see all the MI boys reporting in when it isn't bad news!!! Hey y'all how about a chili cook in and shoot some time? Also have lots of garden toddies still to give away and always looking for a.new shooting hunting casting partner.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

My interest in the 460S&W has nothing to do with some misconception of whitetail toughness.

The rule changes that allow us the limited use of rifles has the potential for something that will have a flatter trajectory and greater range than shotguns. Sure, I could use a lever gun like your Marlin in .357, .41mag, and 44mag. However, those calibers don't offer me any greater reach than my 12guage slug gun using sabots.

If you are happy with the .41mag then God bless you, enjoy the hunt. I am interested in finding the flattest shooting caliber possible within the goofy limitations they have imposed on us. That's why I opened the thread asking about the 460S&W....it's the most rifle-like pistol caliber I know of.

Sorry, I should have explained that in my opening post.
I'm considering getting one of the Rossi 92's and having a 357 maximum reamer passed through it. Should shoot pretty flat.

[Djones]

I'm considering getting one of the Rossi 92's and having a 357 maximum reamer passed through it. Should shoot pretty flat.

Will the 357 max cycle with or without modifications?

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Essentially, what you did was turn the 45-70 into a 45-65 case. Well done!

[aspangler]

This might be what you want. try this link to the 45-60 wcf
http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-%20HL%2045-60%20pearce.pdf

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Will the 357 max cycle with or without modifications?
I think he had to do a little tweaking, but I don't think it was too bad.

[fastdadio]

I'll likely keep plugging em with my muzzel loader, but I do have a pristine mod94 16" trapper in .45lc in the safe. Might be time to get it out and blow the stink out of it.

[Geezer in NH]

It must Suck to have to put up with idiotic laws made from uninformed whoevers. IMHO you are settling way less than what should have been. 12 gauge Sabots are better IMHO and guess what they ricochet better than lots of real rifle calibers.

DO not settle from the supposed authorities who know nothing.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Yeah, idiots are why we have no dove season as well.

[runfiverun]

oh we have one.
all the doves have long since left by the time it opens,, but we have a season.

[rockrat]

I think Jesse Ocumpaugh (JES Reboring) has a 405 JES. Its basically, IIRC, a 38-55 with little taper and takes a .410" bullet. Otherwise, the 450 bushmaster would work well for you.

[rbuck351]

Rossi M92 in 454Casull. Mine launches a 312gr cast at 1950 and if you wanted to drop weight a little to about 250gr you should be able to hit 2200. That should give you a little more range than a shotgun without any custom work.

[taco650]

My interest in the 460S&W has nothing to do with some misconception of whitetail toughness.

The rule changes that allow us the limited use of rifles has the potential for something that will have a flatter trajectory and greater range than shotguns. Sure, I could use a lever gun like your Marlin in .357, .41mag, and 44mag. However, those calibers don't offer me any greater reach than my 12guage slug gun using sabots.

If you are happy with the .41mag then God bless you, enjoy the hunt. I am interested in finding the flattest shooting caliber possible within the goofy limitations they have imposed on us. That's why I opened the thread asking about the 460S&W....it's the most rifle-like pistol caliber I know of.

Sorry, I should have explained that in my opening post.

What are the potential shot distances you are looking at in your hunt area? Also, have you looked at the Ruger 77/44 bolt guns? I realize they're not the caliber you're talking about but the 44 can be a pretty flat shooter with 180/200 gr projectiles which are plenty for deer.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

A potential downside of the 77/44 bolt gun is the max oal in the rotary magazine. A friend mentioned that to me when I was looking at them. Not a deal killer for everybody but it was for me for now.
I think the Rossi Circuit Judge in .44 mag looks like a hoot, sorry if I mentioned that earlier.

[Charlie U.]

What are the potential shot distances you are looking at in your hunt area? Also, have you looked at the Ruger 77/44 bolt guns? I realize they're not the caliber you're talking about but the 44 can be a pretty flat shooter with 180/200 gr projectiles which are plenty for deer.

I hunt from stands and blinds. Usually overlooking fields and lanes along woodlots. Shots in excess of 200 yards can present themselves. My primary deer getter is a H&R Ultra Slug. With sabots I can reach them out to 150 yards with utter confidence. For kicks I also carry a Super Redhawk 480Ruger so if something inside of 60 yards presents itself I switch to the handgun. Usually get one or two each season that way.

Yes, I like the 77/44 and was recently drooling over a 77/357 at a gun shop. They are nice guns, but lack the reach I would like to have out of a rifle.

Rockrat,
The 450 Bushmaster was not something I was familiar with till now.....thanks for the suggestion. Always wanted to try an AR rifle so that might be a good option.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I see no reason you can't use 44 mag out to at least 150 in a rifle, but I run with a pretty adventuresome crowd.

[adanymous]

God bless deer season especially black powder. Mine opens the 11th and those tasty suckers best be on the lookout for a flash and a cloud of smoke!

Im sure its a giant PITA to have those rules, but for a guy who has always lived in the free states, it sounds like a bit of fun to have to come up with something like the suggestions above.

[Djones]

God bless deer season especially black powder. Mine opens the 11th and those tasty suckers best be on the lookout for a flash and a cloud of smoke!

Im sure its a giant PITA to have those rules, but for a guy who has always lived in the free states, it sounds like a bit of fun to have to come up with something like the suggestions above.


It has been a lot of fun and quite a ride. The 1.8" regulations are what got me into reloading.....which quickly got me into casting! That is the one good thing that has came out of this whole mess.

[JWT]

Nice to see all the MI boys reporting in when it isn't bad news!!! Hey y'all how about a chili cook in and shoot some time? Also have lots of garden toddies still to give away and always looking for a.new shooting hunting casting partner.

When and where?

[marshall623]

I performed the load development a couple of years ago. This is a accurate 460-400L over 30.0 grains of H4198. Velocity is around 1250 FPS out of my 1895 cowboy. More speed can be had but I can put five of these into a 6" circle offhand at 100 yards.

Just curious do you shoot these out of the standard chamber.

[Djones]

Just curious do you shoot these out of the standard chamber.

Yes out of a standard chamber.

[jwber]

I am looking to pickup something for next year.

Looking at a 44 mag Handi.

[psmokey]

I had to backoff useing the riffle thing for a while now. I could no longer handle the recoil on the back and soulders. I went to a .41 s&m with a 8 3/8 barrel. It has been working verry well for me and a lot less for me to carry into the woods. Every deer i shot at went home with me and there were a few. :bigsmyl2:

Phil

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I'm considering getting one of the Rossi 92's and having a 357 maximum reamer passed through it. Should shoot pretty flat.
Ok was talking to my friend again, was NOT a Rossi he converted was something else. While his works well he said it was a big enough pain in the behind he wasn't doing another.

[pls1911]

doug guy's 300 grain bullet pushed by 10 grains of unique simply POUNDS pigs and deer.
Shoulder shots inside of 75 yards simply drops 'em in their shadow.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I knew an old `smith that had a "different" type of Lower Peninsula deer gun. He took an H&R Topper in 410 gauge made a heavier barrel for it and lightly 4 groove rifled it. He took 444 Marlin cases and thinned the case head and rim. Made his own boolet mold for this case and snug barrel fit. If ever stopped by a DNR officer to examine this firearm, it was simply a brass cased 410 deer gun.Robert

[clintsfolly]

Got to shoot my 450marlinx1.8 this week. Shot a 1.5" group at 100yds and centered a 12" gong at 200yds 4 times after was told I was hitting just under it? Am using a Lyman 500gr rngc bullet at 1750 fps seat to full length. Clint

[Charlie U.]

I just stumbled across a new cartridge......the 45RAPTOR. Sounds might just be what I'm looking for with the new Michigan rifle restrictions.

http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar-10-lr308-gii-sr25-cartridges/big-bore/88153-the-45-raptor

I'll have to watch and see if this takes off. An upper in 45RAPTOR for the Remington R25 or Armalite AR-10
would be pretty awesome.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I'm not so sure about headspacing on the mouth of the cartridge at that high pressure. I was discussing this recently with a friend in regard to the 44 auto mag. Then again, if they got it to work it's cool.

[micky_blue]

Why not use a 450 Bushmaster? Ammo can be had for "cheap" at PSA. Espically when it goes on sale which is several times a year.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Why not use a 450 Bushmaster? Ammo can be had for "cheap" at PSA. Espically when it goes on sale which is several times a year.
Because I already have a 458 socom which to me is better in every way EXCEPT being Michigan legal, and IF we get lucky and they bring their stuff in line with Indiana the 458 might be ok in another year or two. If not that's ok because I just put a Ruger 44 Carbine on layaway :) Realistically it'll do anything I need it to do.

For anybody that didn't already have a big bore AR I'd say that it's a compelling argument for the Bushmaster tho. I like that I don't have to buy special mags for mine tho.

[Recruit]

I picked up a Rossi lever gun in 45 Colt last year in anticipation of Michigan allowing certain pistol cartridges.

I'll be brewing up some 255 RFN bullets with a little more pep than what can be bought on the shelf...maybe 1300-1400fps. Looking forward to setting the shotgun aside this year :)

[GrizzLeeBear]

Got to shoot my 450marlinx1.8 this week. Shot a 1.5" group at 100yds and centered a 12" gong at 200yds 4 times after was told I was hitting just under it? Am using a Lyman 500gr rngc bullet at 1750 fps seat to full length. Clint

Sounds like a dandy to me, but you might want to get clarification from the DNR on the 450 marlin short before hunting with it. Will it be considered "straight walled" with the belt on it?

[ballistim]

Yes out of a standard chamber.

I'm going to give this a try in my 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun, had planned on using my .357 Max Contender, will look into the possibility of a model 77 in .357 Mag re-chambered to .357 Max. in the future, would like to have the choice of all the .357 molds I have on hand, can't wait to hunt with a rifle in lower MI, never thought I'd see the day!

[Ramjet-SS]

Ruger #1 in 460 S&W
Or Puma in 480 Ruger
Ruger #1 475 Linebaugh

[clintsfolly]

Is it a straight wall with a rim??? I think so and a belt is just a thick rim. Clint

[Whiterabbit]

I think 450 bushmaster or 45 raptor is better for you (and I say that as a shooter and fanatic of 460 S&W) just because there is much more support for shooting 300 yards with them (bushmaster anyways) than with the 460 S&W, simply due to the nature of the guns chambered in them.

were it me, assuming I can blow open 308 pickup brass straight, I'd be going for the raptor. I don't mind expensive machinery in order to limit brass cost at this point.

Nice to go up to 65 ksi, where the bushmaster can't really go. There really isnt data for 460 S&W for those 160 grian barnes TAC bullets, but let me know if you ever find any, especially for their claimed 3000 fps. I bet I can do that in my BFR while staying under the pressure limits. The 300 grian LEE boolit would be the hammer of god though, that's for sure. If you could get it to feed.

[Lucky Joe]

I have only trimmed brass down to SAMMI lengths. How are these .45-70 cases being trimmed down to 1.8?

[clintsfolly]

I used a Harbor Freight mini cutoff saw to remove most of the length then used my trimmer to get them uniform. After trimming I then annealed them as the new mouth where to hard. There is a longer write up over on the Michigan Responsible Gun Owner board in the reloading sub. Clint

[Lucky Joe]

Thank you Clint.

[Charlie U.]

........ IF we get lucky and they bring their stuff in line with Indiana the 458 might be ok in another year or two.

Not likely. These revisions to the regs have been made for a three year duration. The MDNR will be reviewing and revising the regs at three year intervals, so the soonest we could hope to see any changes would be 2017.

I will wait and watch top see if the 45Raptor takes off......make sure the bugs are worked out and availability is good.

[BILLYBOB44]

I have only trimmed brass down to SAMMI lengths. How are these .45-70 cases being trimmed down to 1.8?

Find yourself a pilot to support the inside of the case, mark the outside of the case to 1.850" or so, and use a tubing cutter to take off the large amount. Trim the rest to even out the length..

[Whiterabbit]

frankly you can drive the cutter of your current case trimmer down the case till you are there. Lots more deburring, but it works.

[ballistim]

I performed the load development a couple of years ago. This is a accurate 460-400L over 30.0 grains of H4198. Velocity is around 1250 FPS out of my 1895 cowboy. More speed can be had but I can put five of these into a 6" circle offhand at 100 yards.

How do you crimp these?

[Marine Sgt 2111]

I got rid of the bell mouth on my shortened .38-55 using a lyman neck sizing die. I adjusted the die just enough to straighten the case out but then again I am using a Win/jap 1885 (that shoots like a house afire).

[44magLeo]

A TC Encore with any of the supermag line of cartridges should work well.
The 357 Remington Maximum with the 180 gr spritzer type bullet should perform well to a couple hundred yards.
Leo

[oldsagerat]

Hmmmm. Can you use a short cartridge in a long chamber?
A shortened 45-70 shot out of a normal 45-70 rifle?

[Whiterabbit]

if straightwall, of course. if SLIGHT taper, assuming the case needed a little reaming to get to the right ID, I'd still do it.