chambering an oversized 9mm boolit. is it really possible? (.358 boolits)

[injuredminnow]

I started my casting journey about a year ago and decided to start with 9mm as I've got 5 firearms chambered in it. I've done lots of research and finally started reloading. My finished cast boolits are a common 147 grain design and are sized to .358. They are seated to 1.135 oal. When I crimp them properly and keep them at .358, meaning that I don't just squash them down to .355, they won't freely chamber any of my 9mm handguns. They go in tight and won't extract unless I hammer them out with a dowel. If I crimp them down to .356 they extract just fine. So does anyone actually have experience chambering anything larger than .356? Have you actually pulled a bullet and measured it out to .358 after crimping? I realize there are lots of people who cast 9mm and I feel like an idiot that I can't chamber a .358. My average barrel slugs to .3565 so a .356 is out-of-the-question.

1. either my own cast or commercial cast 147 grain .356 are used. wax removed.
2. boolits tumble powder coated and baked resulting in a .359.
3. bullets sized to .358
4. brass mouth opened with a .38/.357 Lyman neck expander that's been shortened for a 9mm case.
5. bullet seated to -slightly- below min oal to account for oversized ogive. some were seated to proper oal.
6. cartridge lightly run through factory crimp die with carbide ring removed. trial and error until pulled bullet measures out to no less than .358.
7. cartridge won't freely chamber Glock, Taurus, Hi Point. Yes, I'll shoot them out of the Hi Point as I'm not worried about damage or injury.

[JeffG]

I started my casting journey about a year ago and decided to start with 9mm as I've got 5 firearms chambered in it. I've done lots of research and finally started reloading. My finished cast boolits are a common 147 grain design and are sized to .358. They are seated to 1.135 oal. When I crimp them properly and keep them at .358, meaning that I don't just squash them down to .355, they won't freely chamber any of my 9mm handguns. They go in tight and won't extract unless I hammer them out with a dowel. If I crimp them down to .356 they extract just fine. So does anyone actually have experience chambering anything larger than .356? Have you actually pulled a bullet and measured it out to .358 after crimping? I realize there are lots of people who cast 9mm and I feel like an idiot that I can't chamber a .358. My average barrel slugs to .3565 so a .356 is out-of-the-question.

1. either my own cast or commercial cast 147 grain .356 are used. wax removed.
2. boolits tumble powder coated and baked resulting in a .359.
3. bullets sized to .358
4. brass mouth opened with a .38/.357 Lyman neck expander that's been shortened for a 9mm case.
5. bullet seated to -slightly- below min oal to account for oversized ogive. some were seated to proper oal.
6. cartridge lightly run through factory crimp die with carbide ring removed. trial and error until pulled bullet measures out to no less than .358.
7. cartridge won't freely chamber Glock, Taurus, Hi Point. Yes, I'll shoot them out of the Hi Point as I'm not worried about damage or injury.

I've shot .357 and .358 out of my S&W SD9 VE. The throat on mine measured .356. after slugging it. Here's what I did to figure out the maximum OAL I could use for a given bullet. I first pushed the lead bullet only into the throat of the assembled pistol as far as I could with finger pressure, then measured from the face of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet and noted that measurement. I then removed the bullet and measured the distance from the face of the muzzle to the 'bolt' surface or where the case head makes contact with the slide. I subtracted the first measurement from the second and that told me the maximum OAL the completed carttridge could be. I subtracted .005 from that and ran with it. I did note that .358's would wedge tighter while .357 only required some finger pressure to snug the bullet into the throat. It seems to like it so that what I've run with. Hope that helps.

[kenn]

The NOE 135 grain flat nose has a nose that is slightly smaller in diameter than other boolits. I had to use this mold. I'm casting and it's dropping .358 to .359 with the NOE mold. I size them with a Lee sizer and they come through at .3575. As long as I don't try to load them too long, they plunk fine as the nose is no longer an issue. I had trouble with every other variation I tried which included about 7 different types.

[Bullwolf]

I started my casting journey about a year ago and decided to start with 9mm as I've got 5 firearms chambered in it. I've done lots of research and finally started reloading. My finished cast boolits are a common 147 grain design and are sized to .358. They are seated to 1.135 oal. When I crimp them properly and keep them at .358, meaning that I don't just squash them down to .355, they won't freely chamber any of my 9mm handguns. They go in tight and won't extract unless I hammer them out with a dowel. If I crimp them down to .356 they extract just fine. So does anyone actually have experience chambering anything larger than .356? Have you actually pulled a bullet and measured it out to .358 after crimping? I realize there are lots of people who cast 9mm and I feel like an idiot that I can't chamber a .358. My average barrel slugs to .3565 so a .356 is out-of-the-question.


I shoot .3585 sized 9mm, with a honed out Lee push through sizer die and measured using a micrometer.

I can and have pulled loaded boolits and they still measure .3585 I have a few 9mm guns that will even take an un-sized .359 diameter boolit (like my Tanfoglio) but .359 9mm can choke some of my auto loaders, so I size all to .358 for consistency.

A few firearms that I shoot a .358 sized 9mm in:

Browning Hi-Power, 2 Ruger P89's (stainless & blued), TZ-75 (CZ-75 Clone) Beretta 92FS, a Taurus 92 clone, Smith 5906, HK 9mm USP, Smith 940 Revolver, Kel-Tec pistol and carbine, and even a Marlin Camp Carbine. Probably a few others that I can't think of as well. Most of mine are older guns with a couple exceptions.

I do not use a post sizing Lee FCD, because I have found using it will swage my 9mm boolits down smaller than .358 diameter. I typically use RCBS or Dillon dies with 9mm, and seat and crimp in separate stages.

However I stick to 115/124 grain weight boolits, and use either RN or TC nose boolit designs. I think that you have stacked the deck against yourself trying to load the heavier for caliber 9mm projectiles.

If your boolit has a FAT nose profile, or sticks out too far (like a 147 grain or larger) it won't easily plunk or chamber.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114719&d=1391328588

Deep seating options are quite limited with larger 147 and 158 grain boolits, and the small internal capacity of the 9mm case. Add to this a big or too large nose design and you have a recipe for failure.

Not saying that it can't be done, but I find loading heavies in 9mm to be a huge pain. Another reason that I stick to 115 or 124 grain boolit weights in the 9mm caliber.

I think kenn hit the nail on the head with his post.

The NOE 135 grain flat nose has a nose that is slightly smaller in diameter than other boolits. I had to use this mold. I'm casting and it's dropping .358 to .359 with the NOE mold. I size them with a Lee sizer and they come through at .3575. As long as I don't try to load them too long, they plunk fine as the nose is no longer an issue. I had trouble with every other variation I tried which included about 7 different types.
He has given you some excellent advice suggesting the NOE 135 grain design flat nose 9mm boolit.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_358_135Gr._RF.Jpg
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/358135Gr.RF%20001.JPG
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=332&osCsid=5aq7e92l4m1ik5srfh8684mkn5




Perhaps this picture borrowed from the CZ forums will help to explain things better.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dScRenzwZzE/Tz3NEksXtcI/AAAAAAAADOU/_pS6NKuOtrU/w860-h645-no/Bullet+Shapes.jpg

147 grain and larger projectiles tend to stick out even farther still than the ones in the picture.

If you deep seat long projectiles like the 147 and 158 grain boolits in thick cases, you can occasionally get a bulge in the lower part of brass as well.

A few pictures of my own loaded 9mm using .358 diameter boolits.

Lee TL356-124-2R 9mm OAL 1.105 sized using a polished out Lee .358 push through sizer die. (Boolits mic .3585)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52362&d=1304661284

Lyman 356402 TC 9mm OAL 1.150 w/Orange Magic lube, & sized using a Lyman 450 Lubrasizer.
Included this picture mainly because of the TC nose design.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52370&d=1304738207

.358 9mm boolits (Lee TL356-124-2R) Some auto rim, and some on full moon clips sized to .3585, they also fit in the cylinder in my Smith J-frame 940 Revolver.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52416&d=1307078844

Some coated 9mm I have sized to .3585 (Lee TL356-124-2R again)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=4119

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=4170

Lee 358-105-SWC in 9mm sized to .358 using a polished Lee push through sizer.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=91449&d=1360126151

Hope you get it worked out.


- Bullwolf

[MtGun44]

Are you kidding? All my 9mms will chamber .358 diam Lee 120-TCs. No problem.

Bill

[sigep1764]

Funny, just before reading this thread I tried an as cast boolits from my Accurate Mold that is very similar to the Lyman tc design above. It drops 360-361 and l seated a dummy round. It chambered in my Kahr CM9 and my CZ 75B. These are lighter boolits, around 125 grains.

[Jupiter7]

All mine too will chamber .358. Kahr cm9, xd&xdm 9's. Little brothers M9 and Glock19.

[petroid]

If they chamber fine when crimped enough then it doesn't sound like an OAL problem but a bullet sizing problem like the OP indicates. As Bullwolf says, use the barrel as a cartridge gauge and crimp until it will chamber. If that swaged the bullet down try seating a few thousandths deeper. PC makes the ogive fatter as well which can require a shorter OAL. If they are coated, though, they may shoot fine with a bullet that isn't optimally sized for the barrel

[Ed_Shot]

I load 9MM for 3 Glocks w/LW barrels a CZ 75B, a BHP and a 995TS. All do great with .358 boolits.

[tazman]

I have Beretta barrels in my Taurus pt99 pistols. They seem to have generous chambers to match the oversize groove diameters. I can load .360-.361 diameter boolits and they drop into the barrels with no problems.
I worked up to this size stepwise to see if there were issues but there were none. Now I just cast, lube, load, and shoot without sizing unless I am doing a powder coat.
The NOE 135 fn mold mentioned previously is a great mold for the 9mm. You get both a heavier weight and great feeding plus excellent accuracy.

[Bohica793]

I load an RCBS 9mm-147 sized to .358 in my S&W Shield. Works perfectly and is not swaged by the crimp die.

[Shiloh]

Oh Yeah!!

My best accuracy is with boolits sized at .358.
.356 boolits, if they hit the target at all, don't group. They pattern.

Shiloh

[runfiverun]

I think your boolit design is killing you.
I used to use a 125 rnfp designed for the 38/357 revolvers my oal was .095 airc.
they fed and fired just fine but that seating depth took up a lot of case capacity, that big ol flat nose just plain out hit the rifling at any longer length.

that NOE design bullwolf shows above is super similar to the one I drew up for HM-2 molds but is a tick heavier.
life become much, much easier once I got this mold, it's easy to cast and i just seated the case flush with the front drive band [shrug] plus it's a 5 cavity.
my 9's are now like shooting a miniature 45 acp instead of a pain in the neck.

[MT Gianni]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm
Pay special attention to measuring your expansion plug.

[injuredminnow]

Damn! You're responses to my question were great! Some of you posted pictures and links. I really appreciate the help here guys. I feel like I owe someone money. I'll take the suggestion and go with an NOE mold in 135 grains. I appreciate all the time you guys put into answering a noob's question. Now if you would just put more time into cleaning up around the house.....

Brett

[Shiloh]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm
Pay special attention to measuring your expansion plug.

Had Bullseye make me an oversize Dillon powder funnel/expander. Just the ticket!!

Shiloh

[MT Gianni]

Had Bullseye make me an oversize Dillon powder funnel/expander. Just the ticket!!

Shiloh
I remembered a sticky using the expander plug from a set of 38 dies but could not find it.

[Bullwolf]

I remembered a sticky using the expander plug from a set of 38 dies but could not find it.

Here's the link to the original thread, regarding use of a Lee 38/357 Powder through expander in a 9mm die mod. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod


My favorite part was the quote from MT Gianni on page #24
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod&p=1484454&viewfull=1#post1484454


I thought enough of this [thread] to sticky it.

Even though it was a sticky, it still took me a while to find the original thread. It was hidden under the Reloading Equipment forum. ;-)



- Bullwolf







(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod)

[725]

I just kiss mine with a taper crimp just to the point of function.

[Motor]

Bullwolf, great first post. I like the photo of the bullet engaging the rifling.

I'm with most of the others on this. I once made some boolits that were out of round, the mold was not closing all the way. They were .358" to around .361" at the largest point. I decided to try them anyway. They all worked great and shot good too. (Ruger SR9 & P89) were the pistols.

They typically drop at .358" and I load them unsized.

I read a reply that stated if crimped more he doupted it could be a OAL issue. I dissagree. The taper crimp die is very likely reducing the boolit enough in diameter to stay off of the lands.

On the other hand he may have a tight chamber. Hard to say without having it in your hands.

Motor

[noylj]

I only shoot as-cast bullets. For 9x19, they are ALL 0.357-0.358" (or at least all I have measured). After seating, crimping, and pulling, they are all 0.357-0.358". I load for BHP (2), P-08 Luger (pre-WWII) (3), P-38 (WWII) (2), 1911 (1), CZ-75 (pre-1990) (2), and S&W (1). Never had any problems with oversized bullets, other than one of my BHPs with a groove diameter >0.359" (which Browning had me send back, measured it, and told me it was within their specification for groove diameter (0.362" max)—never tried a 0.361" bullet in it (but it does work OK now that I use LLA to reduce/eliminate leading even with undersized bullets).

SAAMI chamber and cartridge dimensions (that all barrels should meet (from SAAMI pistol & Revolver #205):
Chamber dimensions: 0.3950 +.004/-.000 at breech, 0.3913 +.004/-.000 @ 0.200" from breech, 0.3820 +.004/-.000 @ 0.700" from breech, and 0.3810 +.004/-.000" at case mouth.
Case dimension at same points: 0.394 +.000/-.007" at breech, 0.391 +.000/-.007" @ 0.200" from breech, 0.3811 +.000/-.007" @ 0.700" from breech, and .3800 +.000/-.007" at case mouth.
So, at min chamber and max case dimensions, you have 0.010" between the two. So a 0.003" increase in bullet diameter is NOT a problem for a SAAMI chamber.
Of course, the SAAMI specification for a 9mm bullet is 0.3555 +.000/-.0030"—one reason why SAAMI is not the definitive guide to handloading.

[Elkins45]

I size the Lee 105 at .358 because that's about the size it drops from the mold and I don't squeeze them any smaller to run in 9mm. Once I started loading 9mm at .358 I began seeing better accuracy, and all of my guns will chamber them.

[Blanco]

I seem to remember a member on the forum that will do throat / chamber reaming on auto barrels?
can't seem to find him? Can anyone help?

[Fishman]

I size mine to .359 and expand cases with a .358 expander. These have been tested in several pistols of different makers, including a Kahr cw9 with a .356 bore.

[rsrocket1]

You want the Lee 38 S&W expander plug (http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html) in the 9mm PTX die. You can use the 38/357 plug, but you'll need a spacer to make it reach the shorter 9mm case.
148896

[Gunslinger1911]

Dang, That Bullwolf post should be a sticky !

[Elkins45]

I seem to remember a member on the forum that will do throat / chamber reaming on auto barrels?
can't seem to find him? Can anyone help?

DougGuy. He did 40 and 10mm barrels for me and they turned out great. Highly Recommended.

[Frank46]

I have a 92FS and had bought some hardcast 9mm boolits. Leading like you would not believe. Slugged the barrel and got .357 so loaded some 357 jacketed hollowpoints that measured .357. No problems and shot pretty good. Frank

[Beef15]

.358 120gr TCs yep, no problem, in a Lone Wolf barrel.

Have had some coated .356 147gr RN commercial bullets jam the lands hard until I seated them to 1.12 and still got an occasional, factory Glock barrel was good for about .01 longer. I did not have any issue with the coated FP design 147 I tried at 1.14 which Lyman lists the min on as 1.1 anyway. I really prefer 147s, but having only just started casting didn't want to spend the coin those molds require, I soon will, almost certainly a FP.

[bobthenailer]

I size my cast boolets for the 9mm & 38 super @357 dia with the Saeco #377 , 383 , 929 as well as the rcbs 125gr rngc , 5 pistols in all, two 1911's in 38 super with a Nowlen & Kart barrels another 9mm with factory barrel, EAA witness elite match in 9mm & Kahr PM9.
Also Power pistol works very well & use all the same brass brand for a given load as different brands vary a lot in the 9mm.

[twc1964]

My glock 19 with a stock bbl seemed to want really deep seating of the lee 125gr rn boolit so i ended up buying a lone wolf bbl that was already throated from a forum member. Works great now and will chamber anything i throw in it. My g21 had some issues so i bought a kkm barell and douguy on this forum did his voodoo to it for a very reasonable price and it feeds like butter. I just like being able to seat boolits to whatever oal i want to, or length it says in manuals, so it takes some guesswork out of the equation. Just my thoughts.

[Fluxed]

If you have a tight(ish) chamber the .358 bullets may be a problem with some brass that is a bit thicker. You'll have function problems and accuracy/pressure problems. The main idea to follow here is to determine that your particular gun needs a .358 sized bullet. If the bore is not large, you won't need large bullets. .356 or .357 may be fine.

The bullets have to fit the bore and hopefully, the chamber on the particular gun will let you use the correct fitting bullets. Assuming that .358 is the size you need may be a mistake.

[rsrocket1]

^^Exactly. You really need to slug the barrel. You can't assume a .358" bullet will be a "one size fits all". A tight chamber and tight barrel will not be happy with a 0.358" bullet especially if any of the 0.358" is sitting above the case rim. My barrels are 0.3545" and the throat is 0.356" so a 0.356" sized bullet barely fits in the throat. Anything larger causes occasional failures to chamber, or light off-center primer strikes. Sometimes the slide rams the bullet into the throat, sometimes it doesn't. With bullets sized to 0.356", I get reliable feeding and ignition and I can seat the bullet as far as practical to get as much powder into the case as possible without excessive compression. I use Unique which is a bulky powder and there is virtually no way to overload it into a 9mm case, other denser powders like PP, BE or TG can definitely be overloaded.

[Blammer]

NOE has the mould you want, an expansion plug and a through powder/expander plug also. So, one stop shopping.

I too really like the NOE 135gr 9mm. I rock the 10 cavity on it. :)

[Shiloh]

It is where my shootabilityand accuracy come from. LEE 125 gr. RF. This sits deeper in the case, so adjust your load and work up using tried and true load development practices.

Shiloh