50/70 GOVT black powder loads with 3F

[Washington1331]

All,

I've been thinking and that's a dangerous thing. I was reading Spencer Wolf's 45-70 book. In the book he lists a 3F loading that duplicates the old 1886 carbine load with 3F. It's about 1250 fps out a 32.5 inch barrel with a 405 grain bullet. Pressure is much less than the full bore 70 grain 2F load. I've used this with success out of my 1879 and 1888 trapdoors.

Now for thinking part. I've got a large amount of GOEX 3F. I have a 50/70 model 1869 trapdoor. The boolit is a 450 grain lee flat nose I cast out of 40:1. Using the same powder weight loading, I'm thinking that the increase in bearing diameter (458 to 513) would decrease the potential increase in pressure from the heavier bullet making this a possible candidate for my surplus of 3f powder.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience on this?

best regards,
Washington1331

[John in PA]

First of all, both cartridges are designed to shoot 70 grains black powder. Yes, there are pressure variations with granulation, but not running to danger levels when comparing 3F and 2F. Also, consider not so much overall bullet weight when changing calibers but rather sectional density. (Weight against cross sectional area of the bullet). ( Like, a 200 grain bullet in a .30 cal would generate way more pressure than a 200 grain bullet in a .45, with powder charges, etc. being equal)

I think Spence reduced powder by around 10% when going from 2F to 3F in the .45-70 musket loads. Anything in the 60-65 grain range with 3F (may want an over-powder wad to get a bit of compression??) will be safe as far as pressure goes. HOWEVER, if you're shooting an original, sometimes the design (especially the large firing pin diameter) can lead to pierced primers with consequent gas leakage, even with arsenal duplicate loads. And, of course, the gun has to be in sound condition in the first place (usual disclaimers, blah, blah, blah)

[Washington1331]

John,

Thanks for the reply. I wanted to make sure that my thinking was sound... Its been several years since my my last chemistry/physics class.

I usually shoot "carbine" loads in my originals 45/70s as a general rule. The longest range around here is only 300 yards and at that point the carbine loads are on with my buffington rear sight. So why burn more powder than I need?

This is my first incursion into the 50/70. The gun is an original and the only problems I could find with it is some minor pitting in the barrel (one circular band 3 inches from the muzzle). After running a wire brush thru the bore with REMOIL you can still see it, but I can't feel it when I run a tight patch thru the barrel. The only other issue was the trapdoor had a little more wiggle than I liked. I replaced the cam lock lever and she locks up tight now.

I find (at least with the 45/70) that the 3F powder leaves a harder dryer fouling. My home made emmerts lube isn't leaving the lube star at the muzzle. Which led me to try reloading some rounds with a wax paper over powder wad, followed by a lube cookie, and a Walters Wad under the boolit. I'm a big fan of compression with GOEX, so if I do try the 3F loads in the 50/70, I'll do similar to ensure I get enough compression.

Here's a picture of the triplets. 1888 Ramrod bayonet on top, 1879 middle, 1869 on the bottom
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r790/washington1331/CC811921-4A88-4CF1-80E9-5799DB4495B0_zpsflzzobla.jpg (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/washington1331/media/CC811921-4A88-4CF1-80E9-5799DB4495B0_zpsflzzobla.jpg.html).

[rmark]

Nice family you have there :)

[Washington1331]

Finally got out to the range with the 50/70 govt 3F carbine loads. First shot out of an un-fouled barrel struck the 7 ring at 50 yards. Needless to say I was ecstatic.

Unfortunately, the next 10 shots failed to find the entire target... Actually it was the entire target stand backer... The one that did strike the target showed no evidence of key holing, but the point of impact on the back stop was all over the place. One would hit low, the next 10 feet up the berm.

I was shooting the lee .515 450 grain boolit. I cast it out of 40:1. It's a plain base boolit.

After experiencing similar results in my 458 win mag with trail boss, I am thinking that there simply wasn't enough pressure to bump the boolit up to seal the bore.

So I put in an order for an NOE .515, 450 grain hollow base mould. I'm hoping that cast out of the same 40;1 alloy with the same load I'll get better results and a better sealed bore.

Does anyone have any experience with this mould or NOE moulds in general?

[John in PA]

Swiss powder and a blow tube between shots should cut the fouling problem significantly. Mag primers? Good idea also. Best to have some compression on the powder as well.

If it shoots well with 10.0 grains Unique with a tuft of dacron holding the powder against the primer, it should shoot reasonably well with reasonable BP loads. If you want lighter loads, add Cream of Wheat with a Lee dipper over the black powder charge to get maybe 1/8"-3/16" compression. The old Lyman 515141 bullet has generous deep lube grooves and works well. The Smith carbine bullet from Lyman also works well with light loads for less recoil. 515139.

[kootne]

Here is what works for me. I use 2 cork wads between powder and bullet. The cork is gasket stuff from NAPA and 2 of them add up to just under 3/16" thickness. The material appears to be ground up cork with some kind of black rubber looking binder. I champher a fired case till it is sharp and just twist the case on the cork with a board underneath. I also put a dab of contact glue in between to stick the 2 wads together.
I can't say for sure why this works but could be a combination of gas sealing and bore wiping. I shoot these type loads in any old gun that doesn't want to shoot and it has always helped. In my '68 springfield the groups went from "off the chart (target)" at 50 yards to 5 shots touching. This is with no wiping or blowing down the barrel. I am loading the '68 with 215 Fed primers, however much powder (I was using 1F swiss) it takes to give me the load column with compression about a 1/16" of compression. Brass is Dixie, bullet is the Lyman army bullet, 20-1. SPG lube on the bullet, unsized case, just enough taper crimp from barely entering a FL die to fold the mouth over the ogive so the bullet don't fall out. Easy to load and FUN to shoot.
kootne

PS, originaly I used wads I stamped out of really heavy harness leather but when I ran out I tried the cork and it seemed to work just as well. I use the 2 wads of cork only because that is how thick my harness leather was.

[Washington1331]

Thanks for the comments. I never really considered that the barrel might be fouling out... something to think about, definately.

For my carbine loads I used:

1) approximately 53 gr of 3F
2) a .060 veggie fiber wad
3) a .25 inch cookie of emmerts lube
4) a .060 veggie fiber wad
5) 450 gr LFP lee boolit in 40:1 (drops from the mold at .515)
6) Compressed approximately .2"
7) Remington Magnum Large Rifle Primer


Every 5 shots I swabbed the bore with a damp patch of moose-milk and several dry patches. Still had the accurace problems at 50 yards. I moved the target in to 15 yards and all the shots hit dead on at point of aim with no evidence of key holing. Very frustrating. My only thought is that I may have one of those wierd oversized bores and the pressure of reduced loads didn't bump the bullet up enough to fill the bore, which resulted in gas cutting on the boolit causing the poor accuracy at longer distances.

Once I get out of work with enough daylight to do some casting, I think that I'll play with the hollow base mold and see if that makes much of a difference. It made a world of difference on my 1879 trapdoor and the carbine loads are some of the more accurate boolits that I've shot out of the gun.

I also put in an order for some 1F powder to work up to the full bore loading to see if that makes any difference. We'll see what happens. I may try kootne's cork gasket idea. Just looked it up online and my local NAPA has it in stock for $25... bit pricy for a 18"x36" sheet. Unfortunately Unique is one of those powders that I do not have in my inventory at this time.... I'm always hesitant to shoot smokeless powder in antique guns as a general rule.... I know the pressure levels are most likely safe but smokless powder and black powder get to those pressure limits along different curves.

Thanks for your assistance.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I use 3FG in my 50/70 - a full 70gns with a 510gn projectile. The biggest problem is obtaining a cast boolit that carries enough lube through the entire length of the bore.

Shoots well
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/5070targetA.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/5070targetA.jpg.html)

[kootne]

John in PA, your 10 gr. Unique load shoot any quieter than a regular load?

[varsity07840]

Thanks for the comments. I never really considered that the barrel might be fouling out... something to think about, definately.

For my carbine loads I used:

1) approximately 53 gr of 3F
2) a .060 veggie fiber wad
3) a .25 inch cookie of emmerts lube
4) a .060 veggie fiber wad
5) 450 gr LFP lee boolit in 40:1 (drops from the mold at .515)
6) Compressed approximately .2"
7) Remington Magnum Large Rifle Primer


Every 5 shots I swabbed the bore with a damp patch of moose-milk and several dry patches. Still had the accurace problems at 50 yards. I moved the target in to 15 yards and all the shots hit dead on at point of aim with no evidence of key holing. Very frustrating. My only thought is that I may have one of those wierd oversized bores and the pressure of reduced loads didn't bump the bullet up enough to fill the bore, which resulted in gas cutting on the boolit causing the poor accuracy at longer distances.

Once I get out of work with enough daylight to do some casting, I think that I'll play with the hollow base mold and see if that makes much of a difference. It made a world of difference on my 1879 trapdoor and the carbine loads are some of the more accurate boolits that I've shot out of the gun.

I also put in an order for some 1F powder to work up to the full bore loading to see if that makes any difference. We'll see what happens. I may try kootne's cork gasket idea. Just looked it up online and my local NAPA has it in stock for $25... bit pricy for a 18"x36" sheet. Unfortunately Unique is one of those powders that I do not have in my inventory at this time.... I'm always hesitant to shoot smokeless powder in antique guns as a general rule.... I know the pressure levels are most likely safe but smokless powder and black powder get to those pressure limits along different curves.

Thanks for your assistance.

A couple of obsevations and questions as well. Aside from taking up space in the case due to the carbine load of powder, I don't think the grease cookie is necessary, given the deep grease grooves in the Lee government bullet. I shoot an original '68 TD with the Lee, 70gr of Swiss
1 1/2F and an .030 wad without fouling problems when I use the blow tube. Unless you have a really oversize bore, a .515 bullet cast in 40/1 should bump up, even with the 53 gr charge. I assume that you're using that bullet as cast and not running it through some sort sizing die that shrinks it. My Lee mould casts at .516+. I dip lube them and run them through a .517 die which just cleans off the excess lube. One thing you didn't mention is your brass. How do you resize your cases and what do you get as a case length? Finally, and I'm no expert so others with more knowledge may want to jump in, but that circular band you mentioned may be more profound than you assume and could be collecting fouling and lead. You may have a bore that has alot of gunk in that spot left there from previous owners. What do your patches look like when you clean before putting it away?

The .50-70 is my favorite BPCR.

Duane

[Washington1331]

Duane,

I'm liking the 50/70 too. I'm shooting them unsized as the fall from the mold. They mic with my caliper at around .515 to .516.

I was using the lube cookies as my feeble attempt of not only taking up space in the case but also softening the fouling to the point where I wouldn't need a blow tube.

Cases were new unfired at the time of my outting. LOA was around 2.2 inches.

My new ones that I'm working up are not sized just decapped using an universal decapper. Powder is compressed using the expander die. Boolit is finger seated on top of a card wad and is not crimped. I'm hoping that this will improve the accuracy. I'm trying 65 grains of GOEX 1F and we'll see how it goes.

The pitting in the barrel is minor. If anything it almost looks like frosting as opposed to pitting. you can't even feel it when you push a tight fitting patch down the barrel and the patches come out looking just like they do after being pushed thru a pristine barrel.

Patch before:

122716

Patch after punching:

122718

I've scrubbed the ever living bejeezus out of the bore with brushes and ballistol. Didn't get any lead particulates out.

Here's a shot of the bore.

122719

122720

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[Frank46]

Not a black powder shooter yet but try finding some vellumoid gasket material. Comes in different thickness's and normally is a light tan in color. used to work on steam pumps and made a bunch of gaskets out of it. May have to do a google search to find a supplier for it though. Frank

[Ed in North Texas]

I've had good luck with the Lyman 515141 boolit cast soft. 70 grains 1f or 2f, .030 wad and homemade lube (everything I could think of throwing in). Good accuracy out of my NYS Militia Model RB @ 50 yards, I don't push my old eyes much farther than that with open sights any more.

[Washington1331]

I hear you on the iron sights difficulty. As the years pass I have more and more difficulty with anything more traditional than a peep sight close to the eye.

My buddy owns a machine shop and I'm thinking about asking him if he can fabricate a weaver mount that will fit the same as the original rear sight so I can mount a Burris fastfire on my 1868 Springfield without modifying the weapon.

I love the boom, but I'd love to be able to hit what I am aiming at.

[varsity07840]

I hear you on the iron sights difficulty. As the years pass I have more and more difficulty with anything more traditional than a peep sight close to the eye.

My buddy owns a machine shop and I'm thinking about asking him if he can fabricate a weaver mount that will fit the same as the original rear sight so I can mount a Burris fastfire on my 1868 Springfield without modifying the weapon.

I love the boom, but I'd love to be able to hit what I am aiming at.

Unless you are ok with drilling and tapping another screw hole, you're probably going to have a problem. There is only one screw holding down the original rear sight.

Duane

[elk hunter]

[QUOTE=Washington1331;3067284]I hear you on the iron sights difficulty. As the years pass I have more and more difficulty with anything more traditional than a peep sight close to the eye.

I had a pair of glasses made that let me see the open sights much better. Really did help my shooting. May be worth a trip to your optometrist.

[Washington1331]

Unless you are ok with drilling and tapping another screw hole, you're probably going to have a problem. There is only one screw holding down the original rear sight.

Duane

Duane,

I'm not really looking at modifying the gun any. Yes, the 1868's rear sight is only held on my a single screw, but at least on mine there is a lip machined into the barrel that the front edge of the rear sight hooks into. If I could find a machine shop that could recreate the bottom of the original rear sight but with a weaver rail top, perhaps I could get away with only having one screw holding the base to the barrel. ??

[varsity07840]

Duane,

I'm not really looking at modifying the gun any. Yes, the 1868's rear sight is only held on my a single screw, but at least on mine there is a lip machined into the barrel that the front edge of the rear sight hooks into. If I could find a machine shop that could recreate the bottom of the original rear sight but with a weaver rail top, perhaps I could get away with only having one screw holding the base to the barrel. ??

My concern would be, given its necessary length, the rail could still pivot even if it fits into the mortise in the barrel. That doesn't happen with the rear sight because it's so short.

Duane

[w30wcf]

I would suggest eliminating the lube cookie, place 2 .060 wads* under the bullet and fill the space between the wads and the powder charge (after it is compressed a minimum of .20") with corn meal or PSB (I prefer PSB - Poly Shot Buffer). That way you are keeping the gas behind the bullet in the less than perfect bore which should help quite a bit.

Switching to Swiss or Olde Enysford will help with the fouling issues. In the meantime, swab between shots and see how it goes.....

*.06" LDPE wads would be best

Good luck,

w30wcf

[enfield]

I use the Lee 450, card wad and homemade lube ( bees wax, olive oil, lard ) and 59 grains 2f ( Lee 4.0 scoop ) in several 50's and it works very well, I use the blow tube between every shot ( about 4-5 good blows ). and usually only swab when I'm done shooting, or after 20 - 25 shots. I think lube & blow tube is the secret ( couldn't hit a flock of barns before figuring that out ) :)

[cajun shooter]

If you used a different lube, you might not have to use the blow tube.

[Lumpy grits]

Try some DGL bullet lube-
LG