Preparing the Master Caster for Automation

[chloe123]

Guys,

In the spirit of honesty, about 24 hours ago, I learned the functions, and purchased, a tap and die set for purpose of (an initial step) of retrofitting my master caster to accommodate a system alla Wyman Winn, Hatch and others.


I have tapped a piece of aluminum as a proof of concept if you will. Seemed like a good idea to practice on a softer metal before risking mangling the Magma


The question: what size tap should be purchased for the 5/16-24 bolts? I struggled at finding this size through 3 local hardware stores. The thread per inch '24' seemed to not match what I was finding

I figured, alternatively, I could choose a different bolt size or thread style that could be screwed into the lead pour base plate of the Magma, instead of what was detailed, but wanted to get opinions first before speculating on different sizes

From Wyman Winn's Master Caster Automation parts listing:
1 – 91251A370, 5/16-24 x 3” SHCS, $7.02 (for mounting 1/2” stroke cylinder to lead valve)


Thank you.

[HATCH]

http://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Alloy-Steel-Tap-45M982

its fine thread. What you are finding in the local hardware stores are most likely 18 pitch thread

You want fine thread because the bracket you are threading isn't real thick and you want the most threads possible.

[chloe123]

That's right '18' is what I found. Fwiw, I saw the terms 'coarse' and 'fine' but wasn't clear on why it wasn't universal.

the expl'n of fine threads occupying more space and providing a better purchase makes sense--thanks. Ill find one and order it online.

By the way, Hatch, per a previous discussion, I'm gonna take a trip to Magma to drop off the master caster for a PID install

Once heated, the master caster's manual dial was accurate with respect to the reading of a Lyman thermometer, but knowing ideal temperature, esp, when changing to different molds, will be helpful. ...I had one mold that dropped <ugly> boolits unless the pot was set at about 800

thank you


http://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Alloy-Steel-Tap-45M982

its fine thread. What you are finding in the local hardware stores are most likely 18 pitch thread

You want fine thread because the bracket you are threading isn't real thick and you want the most threads possible.

[chloe123]

I swung by a ACE Hardware and ended up finding the correct tap.

I did a crappy job but hope it'll serve . I felt like the smallish T handle didn't do a lot if favors when it came to keeping the bit straight. Based on the circumstances, I ran it through twice. I dunno if that is bad practice but will test the threads with a 5/16 mañana.

116081

[HATCH]

The second time you run it thru shouldn't cut new threads but basically clean up what you cut. At this point the tap should thread into the hole like a bolt would do.
Having the threads crooked on this application shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[chloe123]

I found some materials locally. Note, the aluminum bar with the 1/2" hole rest on 2 cylindrical aluminum, not brass, posts. Bolts are also not the socket head detailed in the original Wyman post.

The Wyman W parts listing will be followed; working with aluminum as opposed to brass was just easier and good practice116620

[HATCH]

Did you drill a hole in the lead pour bar for the clevis to attach?

[chloe123]

...mass trepidation over somehow ruining the Magma. The tap(s) on the lead pour plate was shoddy--just at a slight pitch-- but when screwing in the 2 bolts didn't seem to present an issue, though adding a little undue resistance

Since I haven't ordered from McMaster yet, I tried to limit myself to simpler tasks I could test.

Tonight, I'll review the W. Winn main Master Caster Automation thread, no. 18 post, I believe, for the specific drill location of the 2 shoulder bolts near the rear of the housing.

The disassemble of the lead pour bar was easy. I suppose I should just look up the clevis 'pin' diameter size, set it in the vise, and drill it

I also need to review the Magma parts diagram to determine how the mold carrier shaft/assemblage is installed in the the housing.

[HATCH]

I didn't remove the mold carrier shaft. I did have the pot removed because I installed the pid controller at the same time.

[Tazza]

You are doing pretty well for someone that not so long ago didn't know what a tap and die set was used for.

Keep the progress and pictures coming.

[jmorris]

I felt like the smallish T handle didn't do a lot if favors when it came to keeping the bit straight.
If I have to tap by hand I use a homade tapping guide block, you can buy them too.

http://www.flexbar.com/shop/pc/PRECISION-TAP-GUIDE-p3774.htm?gclid=CJPNno_-6sACFaTm7Aodrw4ASgI

I always use a machine to tap when I can. Far fewer broken taps and much faster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fAVaOMdBkc

[HATCH]

Your just showing off now.....

[Tazza]

I second Hatch's remark there.

That is one of the fanciest machines i have seen in some time.

[jmorris]

It was agood deal. I have bought the tapping heads for as little as $9 off eBay. They are well worth the money if you do much tapping. I have them with MT tapers that match other drill presses as well.

[Tazza]

I will need to keep an eye out. They would be awesome for production runs. Most of my tapping work tends to favor hard to reach places....

[jmorris]

I will need to keep an eye out. They would be awesome for production runs. Most of my tapping work tends to favor hard to reach places....


I understand, chasing threads is not that big of a deal because you have a place to start. However, creating them is a lot better, by hand, with a block like I posted above. You can make it or but it but they help.

[chloe123]

Huh, what was $36?! Amazing value and obviously in the right hands.

The tool pictured, to center and steady hand-tapping, looks effective. Not sure if it gets somehow sandwiched between a vise and the object but I'll look into it.

[chloe123]

Tazza, is that snafu you ran into on your M.C. resolved?

[Tazza]

I believe the block sits on the object you wish to tap. It keeps it square to the job. Using clamps would help hold it In place.

As for my issue, I hope to get to play with a snubber circut on the relay contacts tomorrow after a trip to the range. I have two solid state relays coming too just in case the snubber doesn't work. At least I know what is causing the isse,I just need to find a fix for it.

Do keep us up to date on your progress

[chloe123]

Earmarking for future update(Magma Digital Temp Controller thread will be updated shortly)

Retired fabricator sold me this steel cart for $35. It's short but sturdy. Felt the top was generous for one MC, maybe even two, if the sides could be utilized
116911

Figured I'd clear a hole on the ~ 1/8" steel top for the dropping bullets. Hole saw is requiring more muscle from the drill.
117117

Or, a second Ryobi to back up the gurgling pioneer.
A rare circumstance where you own 2 cheap tools, and together, the task is completed

117121

The 2 3/8" worked okay for my standards

117125

I need to consider how to remove the narrow strip of steel for the sprues. Not sure if I should use a smaller hole saw and simply drill one-by-one across the width of the machine

9/23

1 1/4" hole saw used under the sprue drop section of the MC. Drilled three times across the length

...I didn't test it yet, and I think a jig saw should have been used, but the area is mostly clear

(Not pictured)

9/24 McMaster Delivery

If you didn't know, my handle is the feline
117318

9/25: though I ordered the brass spacers W Winn detailed, you'll see the original aluminum cylindrical spacers below.

117424
9/26: Substituted a thinner piece of aluminum below to allow some flexibility, while allowing the McMaster supplied air cylinder nut, to be tightened on the shaft on the underside of the aluminum plate. It appears this nut decreased potential flex. With the thinner plate, the 3" bolts better align with the crooked taps in the lead pour plate. I tested the cylinder config with 75lbs pressure. Lead pour lever depressed the same extent with pressure as hand would ...
117462
(The aluminum post length was increased by .5" to account for the difference in aluminum bar width)

9/27:
I wasn't able to find location instructions for drilling the arm of the mold carrier for the yolk. Based on circum.,I expanded 2 pictures from W Winn Photobucket catalog for approximation.
117509

....The rear cylinder has been fully mounted; however there was tension while the mold was in the top position. As it's spring-return, that's a problem. I dont think it is due to misalignment of the 2 pivot screws. I'm pretty sure it involved the 5/8" bar. I was able to remove it, substitute a shorter piece that didn't span the length of the machine, and get it to easily slam down with connected air. No undue tension. I need to resolve this issue and connect drill/trim/connect the return spring

Per "Prof", brass spacers I'm place of aluminum(they have since been filed to match)
117707

10/19:

I'm just about a week away from getting final parts for complete assemble . Hatch designed and created the brains to control the Wyman pneumatic apparatus that I installed.

During the process I was concerned about a complete return of the mold carrier. There was just a lot of talk about a substitution of a dual acting main cylinder as opposed to single acting. I wasn't clear if the issue was simply the strength of the return spring, or if it was related to lead dropping, over time, onto the yoke that's attached to the mold carrier. I also wasn't sure if the mold shield that WW fabricated, was used to protect the spring (to assist the return of the mold carrier) that was placed underneath it, and/or if lead was eventually dripping from the orifice plate onto the pin of the yoke, essentially restricting the needed rotation. I thought about moving these parts off center.
119606
119613

Regarding the spring, I tested it by adding a air line to the mold carrier air cylinder, from ~65 to about 90psi. The added strength of the spring did not seem to reduce the downward force of the mold carrier, and the return felt quick and complete.

Regarding moving the mold carrier attachment off center, it appears to be outside the range of dripping lead. Things need to get up and runnin', to figure out what works and what doesn't...

[Tazza]

Not a bad deal at all.

One thing you will notice when automated is that the cart will move as it is on wheels. You will need to get locking castors or something to stop it rolling. Mine has two wheels and the other two sit just on the floor. Without the wheels being up against a hard surface, it moves around the shop (slowly)

[HATCH]

Mine is on a cart but its doesn't move. It might be the fact I have 500 lbs of lead on the bottom shelf. ,

[Tazza]

That may help, just a smidge :)

My bench is quite light vs that, all the weight is up high so naturally the tipping forces are much worse.

[jmorris]

Huh, what was $36?! Amazing value and obviously in the right hands.

The tool pictured, to center and steady hand-tapping, looks effective. Not sure if it gets somehow sandwiched between a vise and the object but I'll look into it.

$46. All the block does is make sure the tap is perpendicular to the part when it starts to cut. I hold mine with one hand and turn the tap with the other. After you get the lead threads cut, back the tap out, remove the block and finish tapping.

[chloe123]

Placed online order at McMaster from W Winn 5/2012 "Air Assisted Master Caster" parts listing

only removal was of his first line item (hand operated lever control valve...)

2 plus years and the prices are almost exact
117073

I didn't want to do extend this post with record keeping oriented updates. See the previous page for the updates

[Tazza]

Getting closer :)

[HATCH]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/a4bf9e9a58db929b6e6d40d03ce11dc3.jpg

Yep he is a little closer

[Tazza]

Sure does look neat. I bet the practice you get at work kelps with that

[HATCH]

To be honest its been three or four years since I had to build a control panel for work.
I run the panel shop now so I don't have to build panels.
Practice makes perfect. This panel is the 6th one that I have built and the 3rd basic one (without PID)

I have two cables I use now for the wires. One for the inputs (gray one) and one for the outputs (blue one).
One thing that I did different on this one was add a pushbutton for manual operation of the movement air cylinder and I also added a toggle switch for large boolit (to operate a second set of timers and allow for larger lead drops)

[Tazza]

Colour coding is a good idea.

I like the idea of a pushbutton to operate it. I want to install switch to hold the mold down.

Its nice to have mions to build your panels. You get to design and not wire it up.

[HATCH]

I don't design.... I buy parts and plan production. We have engineers to design the panels we build.
I am trying to standardize on color coding for the MC automation panels I build.
I also number the terminal blocks.
Wires run from the PLC to a terminal at the top. Then wires from the door accessories run to that terminal block.
I tried to make it color for color but there are some wire colors that are different for the door and different for the sub panel.

[HATCH]

Closer even still
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/26/f00b401360b850d1e8353410dd5ad2f8.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/26/bdca34ad3ab5d2a2d710fee3b45b47bd.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/27/0cf13b776456606921a0fd937c2ab428.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/27/eabad86a186f634125d2936231232a26.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/27/9888abfa613d1a0934ef9fff7ef1b68b.jpg

[HATCH]

Waiting on air valves, potentiometer, and a 250k resistor.
I am getting the hang of building these now.

Additions to this panel.
Heavy bullet timer mod and manual movement button.

[Tazza]

There is also a limit of how many colours of wire you can get hold of too. I never have enough on hand, so i number my terminals and wire up and go from there. If i'm the only one to be working on it, there is no problem. If someone else needs to work on something that i have wired that way, they may have "fun" down the track and using a meter to find what is run where.

Looking nice.

[HATCH]

I have enough colors if I use 16ga tffn wire as that's what we use at work. But that's overkill.
I looked in the storeroom and had a 8 conductor cable (gray one) and the 4 conductor (blue).
I had 10 conductor but someone used it before I could grab it.

[Tazza]

How inconsiderate of them, they should have left you some :)

I think the most i have is about 8? i think it was mainly used for trailer wiring.

[ProfGAB101]

Not trying to nit pick - Wyman used brass pipe nipples as spacers, any you have used Aluminum.

Those mount on the top of the pot/valve lever pivot plate and both metals are super heat conduits to your Aluminum cylinder mount...

I'd have been cheap an just used plain black pipe for the spacers, ( or better yet some 304SS rems from work ) to not sink any heat away from my pot and keep the heat away from the air cylinder so the seals last longer. Steel is not a great heat conductor, Stainless tends be even better at isolating heat.

OTOH - making a shelf that goes across the pot from heavy expanded metal makes a great preheating area for ingots waiting to be feed into the pot. My ingot supply is in an unheated area of the garage so when I cast in winter those ingots are below freezing.

[chloe123]

I hadn't thought about conduction.

Before I purchased all the McMaster referenced parts (including the brass spacers), I bought the aluminum pipe and some aluminum sheet, locally.

I don't have proper tools. Or better said, I wasn't sure how to perform some of the tasks, such as cutting brass. Initially, I used a hacksaw to cut the aluminum over the length I needed, and then used a metal file to remove material and smooth it.

Actually, I ended up using a small pipe cutter on the second set of aluminum posts you noticed. Seemed like a good tool for the job.

Professor, I will shorten the brass tubing. And I appreciate the comment regarding the importance/significance of the original design. I just need a little more time, that's all.

[Tazza]

Not sure the heat conducting to the ram will be a huge issue, as when the air is let out of the ram, it cools slightly. That part of the pot does not reach the full melting temperature of the lead either.

I actually cover my pot with a small piece of sheet metal to keep the heat in a little. I put ingots on top for pre-heating, it doesn't d a lot, but it is all wasted heat, so may as well use it.

[HATCH]

I used a bunch of nuts to do my standoff.

[chloe123]

Apart from connecting air lines, flow regulator, etc., my machine appears to accomodate automation (You'll find a progress report on prev page)

Wonder if an ingot pre-heat shelf could be constructed in a way to release ingots in set time associate with the displacement of lead. Instead of a sens. servo motor, perhaps a small cylinder(s)could open a hinged door to release lead into top of pot. Based on the success of your automated machine, apart from the return hiccup, lead supply seems to be a limiting factor

[Tazza]

There were a few ideas about this posted in another thread, i don't believe any were used though.

It does take time to get low enough to need more lead, the idea of the automation was so you don't need to be there all the time, but so you can be doing other things and check on it from time to time.

You could always have a run counter so you can work out how many cycles use the same amount as an ingot and have it drop into the pot. Remember you have "waste" in the form of the sprue, not just the weight of the projectiles.

Another idea was like a counter weight, so you have a weight in the melt that will float, as it lowers it can allow more molten lead in, like in a carburetter and a float that allows in more fuel as required.

If you do automate ingot addition, do let us know, this would be very interesting.

[chloe123]

Threaded a few holes and I'm full of ideas. I have no idea if it'll even operate yet. The dependence on the operator is noted. And it's a good general safety point: don't expect to have the unit run without oversight

Before I started reading about your guys' accomplishments on this forum, I never really thought too much about the sprue size. Do you try to minimize sprue size as it can be controlled?

...while I was at Magma, the owner showed me the 2 part float system of the bullet master. Till then, I wasn't aware of such a system.

The extent of my own innovation:

[Tazza]

I was the same. I had done all this work and i was hoping it was not all for nothing. I had it wired up like a bomb, control module, wires all over the place, just for proof of concept. It functioned, so i knew it would be alright. As you have gotten the same parts as Wyman used, and drilled holes where he said, especially for the main ram, it will be fine. The rest is just fine tuning and wiring.

Keep the sprues larger, ideally make it so they join together, as if one breaks free, they both come off the plate. You also want enough so that the projectile fills out correctly. It will also need the reserve to draw in a little more as it cools. If you look at the sprue on a cooled drop, you will notice a dimple on each cavity, it's not much, but if there is not enough there, it will come from the base of the projectile where the sprue touches the mold. Again, all of this can be fixed later, just small adjustments.

Keep us updated on your progress, and remember, we all love pictures :)

[HATCH]

Based on my experience you want to initially set the lead pour for the largest sprue that it will hold. This is done with a full pot.
What happens is the lead pour is a fixed amount based on time.
When the pot is full of lead the flow rate out of the pot is higher versus when the pot is 1/2 full. So 1 second of lead pour might be 300 grains when full but only 280 when 1/2 full (times and amounts just for discussion's sake)

I had the same thought that you did. Make a smaller sprue so you can cast more boolits out of pot.
So I set it to make sprues the size of chocolate chips. Well after a while they were flowers and the bases of the boolits had small pin holes in them.
So now I make them Hershey's kisses

[jmorris]

Based on the success of your automated machine, apart from the return hiccup, lead supply seems to be a limiting factor

How much lead does the master caster hold?

When I built my machine I made the pot good for more than 60lbs, you can cast thousands without having to top off.

[HATCH]

40 lbs

thats around 1000 250 grain boolits before you run totally out of lead.

I normally cast about 1400 158 grain 38s then stop the machine to fill up with lead again.
Thats 30 lbs worth and 2 1/2 hrs casting.

If I am really paying attention, I can throw another ingot in (5lbs) without stopping the machine but this only works if I do it when its got over 30lbs of lead in it.
If I put more then 1 ingot in at a time the recovery rate is so slow that I risk the chance of the lead pour freezing up.

[Tazza]

Mine seems to recover pretty well. I get to to operating temperature then drop the sprues in, the top freezes but the bottom stays molten and the machine keeps clunking away. If i add an ingot, i keep it length ways so it doesn't cool the entire pot.

I do tend to keep my casting temperatures down, I set it to 330C.

[jmorris]

Mine uses a 3500 watt element for heat and takes awhile to get up to temp. I generally only add the sprues back in while I am casting because my ingots are over 20lbs each and freeze the mix when dropped in.

I just figure it is part of the time to setup and put away. I guess one could have another pot above the machines pot and dump melt into it at any time.

[Tazza]

Wow, 3,500 watts should be more than enough to keep it toasty warm. I thought the MC ran 1,200 watts?

Yet a 20lb ingot would freeze pretty well any melting pot :)

[chloe123]

The extent to which one could add lead without affecting their rate, that's what I was thinkin' with the comment of preheated lead to the pot . Though I haven't used my MC since the updates (or with the Magma digital controller), I'd like to test adding lead ingots to an otherwise at temperature pot. I'm presuming there's a certain boolit casting temp threshold that can be maintained for average style pistol bullets. When I get mine running, I'll test adding 1 or 2 ingot weights to determine temp drop and affect on boolit cast

[Tazza]

Making a rack or shelf over the pot is a good idea, it does pre-heat them some, not heaps but anything is better than it going in icy cold.

Trial and error is a good way of doing it. You may be surprised at what you can get away with, without having the pot freeze.

[chloe123]

Thought this air consumption guide was excellent. I felt like it was a recent discussion point on a "Star" thread but don't recall specifics
117839

I calculated .45CFM, I believe, with 10 cycles a minute with 3/4" bore 15" length and ~75psi. I think my cheap pancake compressor quotes".6"

I was trying to locate 5" cylinders with heavier return springs (than 3lbs) online and found the chart from Ingersoll Rand

[Tazza]

I'd have thought it would be able to keep up easily.

Did you want to do that or go for a double acting cylinder? that way you are ensured that it will return every time.

[chloe123]

Did you want to do that or go for a double acting cylinder? that way you are ensured that it will return every time.

Yeah, if I hadn't already bought the parts :?

...it's okay. I thought a heavier return spring in a single acting C may overcome the occasional need for a definitive close that the double acting cylinder provides.

All this talkin' about the incomplete closures made me pause on installing the return spring. That and the comment from one CB member who mentioned attaching the return spring to the arm/handle of the Master Caster . Of course, I'll still do it. Just felt good to take a break from it

[Tazza]

ahh whoops!

An upgrade for later on if you feel it is needed i guess

[chloe123]

Very annoying that the orientation keeps getting switched.

It's stroke appears an inch too short but could it just be moved one inch forward? That seems like a heck of a deal.

(Ingersoll Rand)

[Tazza]

The price is right on that one.

Is 4" enough? I think that is about all i squeezed out of mine, but it does sit lower than what Wyman did on his.

[Tazza]

The other thing is, it says the body is thermo setting epoxy, so i assume that is not steel like the others, i wonder how that would hold up in this situation.......

[chloe123]

Well, it's not the same length. I think the pneuma on the rear is a 5" (per the W. Winn model). This is 4". But, at least from the comfort of my chair, it appears one could move it forward while still giving extra room for extension/retraction as he specified in his '12 Automation thread


...just saw your reply. Good observation. I couldn't expand the photo On their site and posted it pretty quick. I was hoping it would have been in stock locally. $10 is equivalent to foregoing lunch one day

It's late on this side of the hemisphere. Have a good one

[Tazza]

That is good in theory, but you actually need the stroke i believe. I had the same issue, when mounted i could get it to sit under the pour spout but it would not extend far enough to hit the stopper at the front. After modifying the cylinder, i got enough length out of it.

To use a shorter cylinder you need to lower the location of the pivot point at the back. The higher it is, the more mechanical advantage you get, but a longer stroke is needed. The lower it is, the less power you get, but the stroke is shorter.

My dad just picked up a double acting cylinder to mount to mine, i hope to have it up and running for a test on the weekend.

I was thinking it must be getting late over there :)

[chloe123]

Gonna need a few days to re-evaluate air path, fittings, proper sprue tightening for auto set up, as well as learn the Hatch design.

Big thanks to W Winn & Hatch for sharing. It takes a certain character type to invent and not hoard the idea. I think this is a topic unto itself but, for now, thanks for the support.

After the few days ill do my best to add details to experiences, in addition to a sample video of course

One thing though...the limit switch. I simply installed it but the safety aspect of it becomes apparent when you're setting it up the machine---not having a heap of hot <dangerous> lead as a result of not having settings exact, or any sort of automated motion unintended, is appreciated. Insert thumbs-up emoticon here .

Some of the below bullets were technically not made by me
120034

[HATCH]

The limit switch on my design is the key to everything.
The cycle starts with the closure of the limit switch.
It also can be stopped by opening the limit switch except when the machine is calling for mold dump.
The limit switch should be installed so that it is only closed when the mold carrier is at the utmost top position

[Tazza]

The setup i have works on the same principle too. If the limit switch is not activated the unit will not continue. It will try a set number of times to clear the issue, but it if fails it will simply halt.

Nothing worse than coming back to a MC that has entombed the mold in lead, sadly i have been greeted by this twice :(

[HATCH]

The only time I came close to that is the other day when I had rewritten the lead pour code. Lead pour started but never stopped. Had to kill the power.

[jmorris]

My lead pour relay is a DPDT so it controls the drive motor too. The only time the pour solenoid is activated is when the mold is a TDC so to speak and it just kills power to the motor for how ever long the pour timer is set to.

[chloe123]

1st time creating a video. Try this:
http://youtu.be/hRb8RTf8juM

[Tazza]

Looks very good, gotta love automatic mode!

Are you going to automate it's brother too?

[HATCH]

Looks good. You need a flow regulator on the incoming air before the air valve and one on the exhaust port on the valve.
This will allow you to slow down the down stroke and up stroke.

Other then that it looks like you got it hooked up right.
I see you still have my test lights hooked up.
You can remove them as they are using power and the power supply wasn't sized to run them as well.

[Tazza]

I agree with the need to tame it down a little. Flow restrictors will slow the speed of the ram, but it will have the same force available. It may take some fine tuning, but you have gotten this far, the last bit will be a breeze.

One other thing you may want to consider is something to act as a buffer for the cast projectiles to hit before going into the tub at the bottom. The further they fall, the more damage they will get. Ideally you want the base to be perfectly formed for accuracy, falling that far or even having freshly cast projectiles hitting each other will damage them. I have a towel lined chute that is the height of the bench to slow them down, they then drop no more than 4" into a drawer, even that marks a few of them. Even some sort of a tube like a pant leg dangling so they hit that and slow down before hitting the bottom.

Happy AUTOMATIC casting :)

[chloe123]

Thanks for the feedback.

...the 2nd Master Caster was a back up just in case I ended up breaking the first. Honestally, though, I think you gotta have some sort of mechanical aptitude before doing something like this.
Even though Hatch did the hard work, and W Winn provided detailed instructions to operate it pneumatically, I think there's some risk. I get it, most on this forum are handy. I'm just saying it'd be regretful to ruin your machine

My idea of having the yoke off center was to avoid it being directly underneath the streaming lead. Over time, I figured lead could shake loose from the orifice plate onto the yoke linkage, or from a drip. I think it was a good idea. However, I also realized that the original, centered, hole in the aluminum plate was misaligned enough for there to be tension at the bottom the stroke. Thus, part of the reason I went for a yoke that had a revolving center that allowed a pivot. This style yoke allowed my imprecision to not affect the action one direction or another

...the flow limiter

I wasn't sure how to run the air lines. I saw a 3 way brass fitting --I think-- in Hatch's video that combined airlines so I used that to separate the incoming air to the 2 sep solenoids. But the problem was that I wasn't sure how to place the air regulator inline with just the mold assembly cylinder. I simply avoided the issue. The "in" is connected to the air compressor and the "out" begins the air line for the unit. I found that at no,lower than about 70psi, the lead pour cylinder would operate smoothly and the main mold carrier cylinder would exert with plenty of force to drop the boolits. Below, lead wouldn't drop consistently

As things were running pretty well, I wasn't sure if placing the flow restrictor(which was ordered) before both air lines would be a good idea.

I do want to relax the main cylinder a bit so Ill work on it within the week.

Hatch mentioned also using this restrictor on the exhaust port of the main air valve. I wasn't sure where the "out" would be connected in this arrangement so I left it as-is for the time being.

Cloth under the chute to slow down the boolits is a really good idea--as long as it doesn't burn. When I cut the hole, I thought about a ramp but I want sure how to attach it to the steel cart so I moved on with other aspects of the project.

Its a bit late and I wanted to take a moment to address the comments and thank everyone for their support, direct or indirect.

...I'll remove those lights, Hatch. Actually, when I first hooked the unit up they were helpful in getting the gist for what was happening. Then, they reminded me of Christmas. I'll remove them mañana.

[Tazza]

Good idea about the floating clevis setup. Mine is fixed so you have to be dead on for it to run right or it binds. The ram rod does get a few drips of lead on it from time to time, but i made it so that the back of the clevis has an angle cut on it so when the ram retracts it essentially works like a cow scoop that they had on old style trains, anything gets in the shaft it gets scooped off.

You would have to work pretty hard to destroy one of these machines i think, they are quite tough.

The air valves you have should have an exhaust port, so when power is let go air from the cylinder exits through it. If you restrict the air flow out, it will slow the ram cycle speed. You can ge ones that are a combination muffler/restrictor. It makes the air exiting much quieter.

As for the regulator, you could have a T or Y fitting on the input air so you can change the pour and ram separately with two regulators, i was lucky enough for the 30-40PSI i am running to run both the arm and lead pour reliably, so one regulator is all i needed.

You have done very well doing this project, going from never have used a tap and die set to a complete and working unit.

[HATCH]

You should have enough power if you want to leave them. They are not LEDs so they use more power but considering my current panel is running on 15 watts and yours has a 30 watt supply it probably will be fine.

[jmorris]

You have done very well doing this project, going from never have used a tap and die set to a complete and working unit.

Good point and correct.

[chloe123]

Installed the "flow restrictor" in the am and ran it during a lunch break. The sprue not being spit out is a sign that it's an enhancement

http://youtu.be/JrwVTdF0LDk

Though it's not smooth like the motor driven one's,(or that video a newer member recently posted of his unique dual acting setup), it's better than it was.

I swapped a mold out and ran it again tonight. This time I had a boolit stuck in the mold.
Hatch had designed a easy way to release the boolit. I want to say he named it "manual move" though that doesn't sound representative of the function. Basically, via the panel, I just "stopped" it, and selected this button. It felt touch sensitive, for lack of a better word, and made the assembly slam down to release the boolit. Worked well, though the stuck boolit occurred every once in a while. I'm going to first try to use a spray on the mold then run same settings.

[Tazza]

A double acting cylinder will be smoother as it powers in and out rather than just out and relies on a spring to return. Mine flings the sprues all over the place, when my restrictors arrive, i hope to remedy that.

Mine is double acting, so i hope to get it running nice and smooth.

Stuck projectiles may be fixed with Hatch's next revision, he is working on a tapper to fix that issue. I am going to try and setup tappers on mine, i have a pile of small cylinders that would be perfect.

[HATCH]

Return stroke can be controlled by installing a flow regulator on the exhaust port of you air valve.
I hope to have all my mods done by this weekend

[jmorris]

I'm going to first try to use a spray on the mold then run same settings.

I have never found anything better than an acetylene flame to smoke a mold. The bullets just fall out.

[chloe123]

Read the notes, thanks for tips, but had a--new--major issue.
Anyone experience a problem with mold assembly arms getting stuck at end of stroke? (complete open position)
There's considerable tension at end of the stroke. It feels like there is undue tension between the mold assembly arms and the 2 end pieces that allow it to open. Happened while running a diff mold, 9mm. Wanted to see if I could just let it go for about 10 minutes. Returned to press and the mold carrier was stuck in that wide open position at bottom of unit. Though I could release it by hand, the added spring did not have enough force to return it. Though I could add some grease to the side arms I don't believe that's typically needed or a solution.I'll have to look at it again tonight

The flow restrictor was enabled at the time.

[Tazza]

I put a drop of oil on these parts too, not sure if it helps or not.

Just how hard was it stuck down? is the return spring in the same spot as Hatch and Wyman have setup? yours seems to sit a bit low to reliably return it to the start point. The cylinder does have a return spring, so i would have assumed it would have mostly returned on it's own.

[chloe123]

Using the phone to connect...my return spring is mounted to the handle . There's probably about 2x the tension compared to the that W Winn detailed in his write up.

the original design connects the mold carrier to the rear of the frame, I believe.

I deviated just for the sake of it. Many times just the return spring if the cylinder is sufficient but there is some insurance with a heavier dpring

Anyway, the mold carrier arms were stuck in the full open position with the spring connected . It just happened on a cycle.

at night I took the mold arms off the main assembly and inspected them as well as the 2 partitions that flank them . The arms had some scratches but there wasn't an
obvious detent on anything

i added some light oil to both part, cycled manually a couple times, and it made a world of a diffrence. It retracted.

I didn't exaggerate. Once stuck, no lubrication, no return of the mold carrier--very strange

[jmorris]

I might have missed it; however, why not use the cylinder double acting?

[Tazza]

Jmorris - i believe he only has a single acting cylinder. We started talking about a double acting one after he already ordered parts :(

I found that oil on thses parts helped me too, even on the guides the sprue cutter hits helped some.

[HATCH]

The original Wyman design used spring return. We just recently mentioned about using a DA cylinder. I have purchased one but stopped the conversion since I am going with touch screen mods also

[Tazza]

I may get a little time on Saturday to see how i can mount a tapper to mine. My idea was to strike the underside of the mold halves so they rock back and forth on the pivot point. I feel there is just enough space for the cylinder to reach under there, but time will tell if that is indeed true or not....

Still waiting on my flow restrictors to tame the beast a bit more. The ram does have inbuilt buffers, but they only work at the end of the stroke.

Hatch - have your parts been made for your tapper cylinder yet?

[HATCH]

I got the parts just finding time to assemble. Also I am building a new control panel that will incorporate all the features I have thought up.

[Tazza]

Glad the parts are done. I'm lucky enough to have all the gear on hand to do pretty well everything i need to. Nothing worse than being at someone elses mercy to get a job done.

What changes are going into the new control box? just adding a touch screen, changing the lead pour timer setup and tapper control?

I wonder how many more cool features you will think of down the track that can be incorporated into the setup :)

I wonder how a proximity sensor would work with sensing that a projectile has not fallen from the mold to activate the tappers. I just don't know how sensitive they are to be able to sense something like that. Then again, how far do we go on a setup like this?

[HATCH]

Don't want to spoil the surprise.
I can tell you that any bell or whistle that I can think of is being incorporated.
No I will not be doing sensors to measure mold temp or tell if a boolit has gotten stuck.

[jmorris]

I wonder how a proximity sensor would work with sensing that a projectile has not fallen from the mold to activate the tappers.

I thought of a weighted "flapper" that would be adjustable for the amount of weight that allowed it to open. Would work similar to the holy water dispencer that Hero of Alexandria built.


The first vending machine (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vending_machine) was also one of his constructions, when a coin was introduced via a slot on the top of the machine, a set amount of holy water was dispensed. This was included in his list of inventions in his book, "Mechanics and Optics". When the coin was deposited, it fell upon a pan attached to a lever. The lever opened up a valve which let some water flow out. The pan continued to tilt with the weight of the coin until it fell off, at which point a counter-weight would snap the lever back up and turn off the valve.[9] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria#cite_note-9)

Except it would just take the weight of the two bullets (and sprue if you mix them in your operation) to open the door enough for it to trigger a switch and roll the bullets off.

[jmorris]

Another way to do it would be insulated probes that are spring loaded and would contact the base of the bullet if it remained in the mold at the bottom. That would make it a closed circut back to the machine, if the mold is empty the probe would be in air and you would have an open circut.

[Tazza]

hehehe it's like Christmas, waiting to see what the surprise is :)

Mold temperature would be handy to control speed automatically, but it makes it more complex and really not needed. These machines are not made for production speed.

Jmorris - i like that idea, simple yet effective. you sure think outside the box with these things, a direction i would never have considered.

[Tazza]

I was considering probes, but i know how it would go for me, they would find a way to be bent into something that doesn't resemble a probe anymore.

[HATCH]

Spent a hour chasing a ghost.

Started hooking up the new panel.
Its 100% new except for the stop switch.
Fan worked fine.
Had to reprogram the pid for SSR output.
Once that got figured out it wouldn't get hot.
Checked all voltages. All was good.

Couldn't figure it out.
I ran the old panel one last time before disconnecting it.

Turns out the a connector failed that connected the heating elements.

Cut the two bad connectors off and twisted the wires and everything worked.
Just got to get a high temp crimp connector tomorrow

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/03/8257cdc642dd4160c12fad49a3f8b9e0.jpg

[Tazza]

Gotta love the tail chasing..... Glad you found the issue and it was nothing major.

How is the SSR output different? i have seen different outputs available on ebay, i never understood why you couldn't just use the relay outputs to control it. Or does it provide the low trigger voltage to turn it on and off? That may be be thinking that i have power available, so i could just use that through a relay output from the PID to turn it on and off.

I assume the SSR is not a latching device, so you need an on and off pulse?

[HATCH]

The pid was set up for relay output. The SSR (12v) wasn't activated.
Relay out put requires you to loop power thru the contacts to the SSR. The relay normally doesn't have a life expectancy the SSR outputs have.
Most SSR use 4-32 vdc for control.
Most are also just on/off devices.
You can get some that are modulating.
Example its set for 0-10 vdc. 5 vdc is 50% output 10vdc is 100%


One advantage that I have is that because the range that the SSR can activate you could send a 24vdc signal a long way before it drops below the 4vdc activation lower limit of the SSR

[Tazza]

That makes sense. Mine just uses a relay but they cost the same as an ssr these days and an ssr will pretty well live forever. Never thought about the voltage drop. Handy that they can be used like that for long runs if needed

[chloe123]

You'll find a short video link below of the additional Master Caster I just set up in series

...running with the extended cooling time Hatch designed(there's a benefit of avoiding mold overheating when you're not running fans).

Please note, it's slow. A normal cycle (by selecting respective button on the Hatch panel)would run about 50% faster. Also, as mentioned, though I can slow the mold carrier cylinder with the restrictor , it will not push smoothly like the Tazza, or others set, up. I don't view this as a problem, at least at this time. Though, I still think increased cylinder bore size may play a role in a smoother action when a restrictor is added.

http://youtu.be/t0SpiuIOS4o

[Tazza]

That is awesome to watch as they both do it at the same time, it's a thing of beauty :)

[chloe123]

Thanks. Though, there are issues that could arise. Hatch was generous including a 2nd limit switch; however, I didn't know how to consider the voltage needs as he didn't design it for 2 MCs. For that reason, I kept it off. It being off means one could run normally while the 2nd machine has a stuck mold carrier while lead continues to pour. Also, I simply split the air lines to accommodate 2nd cylinders. Though it was kinda shoddy, ill prioritize the important changes, and figure out a game plan, in the future.

There was a post in the broader 'Casting Equipment' re. adding a vent hood. That's one feature that I'd like to add. Freshen the air up a bit. Oh yeah, the 2nd air cylinder is a dual acting. Just learned there's no reason it can't operate in just one direction. Found it as a N.O.S. easier, and cheaper, than the single acting equivalent


Adden.: The 2 extra solenoids I have don't have wires attached and I've consulted Mettle Air for a diagram. Though the system isn't set up to send different signals, I'd like to consider how they can be used for independent movement. As I can't figure out how to even connect wires to them, that's gonna take a while.

122792

The limit switch I view as a necessity though. So, I'll consider that first. Tazza, I'll review your post again to get a better handle on your suggestions--thanks

I ran the MC in the proper small boolit size mold for a minute below. Apart from tightening the sprue plate on one machine, there haven't been anything resulting in a fail

http://youtu.be/cFVbaRNOyfM

[Tazza]

I am unsure on the power requirements for the solenoids Hatch is using. The ones i am using draw about 100ma each, so they really use next to nothing.

For your setup, if you keep it hooked up that way, i would like to see separate solenoids for each MC and possibly tie an extra limit switch in so that lead will not drop if there is no mold under it, run the power to the lead pour solenoid through the switch so no power will flow if it is not in position.

Ideally they both should be run by the PLC but i don't think there are enough i/o lines to be able to do this.

[HATCH]

From the picture shown.
Air in is the sides. You just block one side off if you aren't connecting two air valves side by side.
the port facing up is the NO port. This is the port you hook to the air cylinder.
The port that is at the top of the black solenoid is the exhaust port.

now how to hook it up.
there is a screw on the top (based on the picture) that holds the plastic cover on.
Remove it.
There are two screws that you hook the wires up to.
It is polarity sensitive only if you want the LED light to work.
If you hook it up and the light doesn't light when its operated then swap the wires around.


This is how you should run BOTH machines off the same controller.
You need to hook the second limit switch up to the second machine.
Do it the same way you did it on the first.
Now when you wire it you need to do it this way.
You make a safety circuit.
So take on wire off the existing MC limit switch. Connect it to the 2nd limit switch.
Then connect a wire between the two switches on the terminals that aren't used.
Basically this way the PLC will only start if BOTH machines are at the top and the limit switches are closed.

[HATCH]

also you should put a second support on your enclosure for your control panel.
Its fiberglass and will eventually stress crack/break

[chloe123]

Hoping to get some insight on an issue with the Master Caster that was automated with the Wyman W./Hatch design a few months back.

Striving to get a more reliable boolit drop, I polished the boolit cavities with Flitz. The idea was to eventually have the machine run a bit smoother like some of the other members with similar designs.

The issue I'm having--I think Tazza brought this up a while back--is that the mold carrier cylinder is operating aggressively. I figured if I polished the molds, I could reduce the force needed to drop the boolits. Although I can reduce the pressure via the flow restrictor that is installed on the mold carrier cylinders, instead of slowing the speed down to effectively drop the boolits, the cylinder will not open completely. Basically, sticking in an open position.

At first I thought that the cylinder air column was just too small to effectively slow down the cycle, but then I realized there's a quirk with the "automatic" and "manual" modes of the machine (see the video below for this)

I don't know where to start in trouble shooting. I don't think the air lines or other pneumatic apparatus I installed is involved, but at the same time I'm not certain.

Since I already reached out to Hatch on it, I figured I'd post a short video to show the issue.

I had an inking that the multimeter I own should be used to measure values on the Hatch panel, but honestally I've only used it for simple household tasks.


http://youtu.be/jipQdxYXgfo

I didn't really restrict the air flow much on the video. I just wanted to evidence the issue I'm experiencing in both "modes" . Fwiw, I have had problems with the "double tap" feature functioning as well, and not clear if the issues are related.

[Tazza]

I don't believe it is a panel issue......

Hopefully Hatch will have some guidance for you, from what i can see, the dumps on each mode look the same to me.... Could it be because in automatic mode the sprue has had a different amount of time to harden up? You may have been waiting a little longer or shorter in manual mode so it may be harder or softer when you dump it takes more or less effort to cut the lead off? This would make the operation more and less violent.

I spent a little time today polishing 3 molds, i should have taken pictures, they do look nice and shiny inside now! i wonder how well they will drop now.

[chloe123]

...you're gonna be pleased with the effect of the polishing . Prev I cleaned, and smoked . The trickiest part of polishing was applying it evenly . I ended up using a felt tip on a dremel tool. Very pleased though not sure how long it'll last ...back to wk . Good luck

[HATCH]

Sprue hardness would be the only factor to deal with.

If the sprue is cut quickly, it will require less force as the lead isn't fully harden.

In automatic mode everything is fixed time.
It sits at the top before lead pour for x amount of seconds (2 sec by default)
Lead is poured at the same time the harden timer starts (6 sec by default)
Mold is moved to the bottom and held for x amount (2 sec by default)
In manual mode, unless you time it exactly the same, the force will be different.
Also if you don't have a sprue to cut it will move faster.

On your setup are you using a air valve per machine or a single air valve and splitting the output?


I don't fully understand the properties of air using flow restrictors so someone might need to step up and correct me.

Flow restrictors do limit pressure some but only initially.
If you restrict the air flow it will take longer to fill the cylinder up with air and for the pressure to build up. Once the air has equilized the pressures will be the same.

Are you running a double acting cylinder or a spring return?
If spring return, put the restrictor between the air valve and the cylinder.

[HATCH]

If you shut the valve all the way it will cause the mold to get stuck at the bottom.
You need to almost shut it.

On a double acting cylinder you can put restrictors on both sides.
You can restrict the air going into the cylinder at the same time as restricting the air going out of the cylinder.
The only problem I have when I restrict too much is that I get the "BOUNCE" effect.
The mold carrier goes to the bottom and hits but bounces back slightly causing the mold to slightly close.
If the boolits aren't fully out of the mold before the bounce, they will get stuck between the mold halves

[Tazza]

I too used a deemel like tool and felt pads. Still took a while but looks the part.

With a double acting cylinder mine bounces a little too but as the pressure builds it opens right up. It's just one of those tweaking things to get right or close enough to it

[chloe123]

...one set of valves to run cylinders.
...one cylinder (mold carrier) dual acting though only one side used. So, in effect it's simgle acting
...air restrictor is post solenoid/before cylinder.

After hooking up the first MC, I experimented with simply splitting the air lines to run the 2nd MC. I figured if there was a problem I'd just disconnect the 2 extra air lines and evaluate problem. But apart from the (potential) challenge of using singular settings of one control panel on 2 diff molds, it works pretty well. I'm definitely getting a lot of value from the Hatch design for the $.

Regarding that, his timing --he describes above--feels perfect. It allows just the right amount of time to either inspect a stage or stop the unit before a problem occurs. For instance, the2 sec delay before the lead pours. Pre-mold polishing I'd get a bullet stuck in the mold occasionally. That 2 sec the mold rested on the top was ample to remedy the situation by selecting his "manual move". That immediately charges the mold carrier cylinder with air, forcing it downward until you release the button. great, well designed, features.

Even with the slow down that occurs from the sprue cutting, I swear it looks like this feature is operating the cylinders more effectively, but at the end of the day, it's hard to prove. It just sounds louder when the mold carrier hits the frame

What I wanted to do is to achieve a smoothness to the bullet dropping cycle. I think I brought this up in the past. I get the feeling that the 3/4" bore of the air cylinder isn't sufficient to get a smooth fluid open.

i removed the separate return spring (attached to the handle) and adjusted the flow restrictor while ranging the air pressure from ~70psi to ~105psi. The increase of air pressure didn't really allow me to gain a better drop, regardless of the flow restrictor setting.

My mindset is that a smoother action, without banging open, will allow the sprues, and bullets, to be more reliably sorted. as it is they get flung forward.

Before writing I did some searching and found this:
126491

Is the reason for the netting not to just keep the sprues from being flung indiscriminately, but rather to allow them to bounce against the netting and downward in the Magma compartment designed for the sprues? Regardless, a good idea if it works.

Other machines lie, Tazzas are exceptional smooth. His cycle looks like the ridge down the venter of the mold carrier doesn't even strike the base of the machine. The drawback is that it requires the boolits to release when the mold halves separate. But, I'm sure the polishing will work.

the Flitz polish Hatch referenced is effective. Doesn't take long at all. Or maybe better said, if it's taking long, you may be doing more than polishing. I don't think it took me more than 2 minutes a mold with the Dremel. (I tried a method similar to "Wiederlader" but it wasn't as consistent as a Flitz polish with a Dremel style tool)

[Tazza]

Mine does hit the bottom, it just doesn't hit it very hard due to the flow restrictors.

Mine with a single acting cylinder and even with a double acting one without a restrictor flung sprues all over the place, a net over the front would stop then going all over the place but it will increase the chances of a projectile or sprue to come back and get stuck between the mold halves.

I know what you mean about needing the impact to free the projectiles, mine stick so i need to get my tappers working.

[HATCH]

You need to invest in a set of valves per machine.

You only have so much air flow thru the valves as it is.
I have found out when I upgraded my panel that air flow is critical.
I tried some different valves because they mounted easier then the MAC brand that I had been using.
It was a mistake as I couldn't crank up the flow high enough to the point it was TOO much.
I switch valves to the MAC style and it worked like a champ.
I know the valves I sent you also will work as I have another person using the same valves.


You need to have a air manifold off of the main line that goes to each of the valves.
What works for us isn't going to work the same for you because of your setup.
You are trying to push twice the amount of air thru the same size line as we are using for our single machine setups.

[HATCH]

Any updates??

[chloe123]

Work and home stuff take priority. I took a few clips a few days ago but didn't have time to edit it and explain beyond previous posts. Ill ensure I comment in the future by editing this post