30-30 and Dacron

[kungfustyle]

Hello all,
I've been reading up on the posts about Dacron and fillers. I've noticed that people shy away from questions about pressure and Dacron. I have a Mossberg 464 30-30 and a Lyamn 311401 that casts about 178 dressed out w/ gc and lube (ww+tin) I'm using Sr4759 and noticed some wild stuff when we were out shooting. My pet load was 17.5g of SR4759 had about 2" group at 100 yards...I was happy with that. However, the temps in Fl got over 105 w/ the heat index and I couldn't keep the groups on a dinner plate. I wanted to work up a summer load for the gun and thought about including Dacron. I was going to start w/ 15 grains and work up. The Lyman cast handbook lists 17.8 as the max. Should I stop at 16.5 or is it safe to go up to 17.5 w/ the Dacron? I'm trying to let accuracy be my guide.....
Can I work up a similar Load in my 06 same boolit and powder w/ the Dacron, starting with 23g up to 27g? Thanks for the input.
By the way, I've decided on Dacron as a filler just bout a bag yesterday, but wanted some input before I get started.

[searcher4851]

I'm not familiar with that powder, so about the only help I can give you is the fact that your cartridges don't care what the heat index is when being shot.

[725]

Does your lube get runny at those temps?

[shooting on a shoestring]

KFS, you're definitely on the right track with 4759 in 30/30. Your charge is right about where it should be. Doubt you have any problem there. I'd not use dacron or any other filler for that charge in 30/30. I don't think you'll gain anything, but certainly try it, sometimes our boolits don't like to follow the rules.

Its not unusual for loads to make big groups in hot weather, especially if they were worked up in lower temperatures. It could be lube getting too thin as 725 is thinking. I could very well be the gun and not the ammo. Or it could be ammo at different temperatures. When its hot and sunny, any ammo in the shade will be considerably less affected than ammo left in the sun for even just a few minutes. That can open groups. Also, the higher the ambient temperature, the less effective the gun is cooling off between shots. Also bright sunlight can have a big effect on heating up steel where in the shade it may have been cooler. Meaning gun half in the sun and half out can move point of impact. Cloudy days or completely shaded benches don't have that issue.

I'm thinking I'd first make certain the gun and the ammo were well shaded. If the groups are still large, I'd look at cooling the gun, that is shooting slower, or with timed intervals between shots.

If it is your lube being too soft for the temperature, you may have some leading in the barrel that will need to be cleaned out before you get any improvement at all.

I find fillers to be useful in larger cases than 30/30 and when using harder to light powders than 4759. Go ahead and try it and see if dacron improves your groups. If it does, great. If it doesn't you'll have had some fun finding out. My guess looking at it through the internet is its a lube problem or a sun/heat problem.

[KirkD]

A couple thoughts. First, I have noticed that bullet velocities increase with temperature, using my chronograph to measure velocity. Pressures increase with temperature. Second, I've used filler in a lot of cartridges originally designed to be black powder cartridges (38-55, 44-40, 45-70, 45-90, etc.). These all tend to be straight walled cartridges with a lot of empty space inside when smokeless is used. I would never use any filler in a bottle neck cartridge, especially at anything near normal loads. I would suggest that you chronograph your loads on hot days when accuracy goes down the tubes. I think you will see they are going at least 100 fps faster than normal and I hate to think what the pressure is. I'll load less powder in the summer and more in the winter to compensate.

[kungfustyle]

That is what I thought about the temp increasing pressure/fps. I had three "lubes" I was testing powder coated boolits w/ both lubed and un-lubed w/ good lube and I had some of my pet loads cast w/ lube. Load was developed back in March when it was much cooler. I did shoot these around noon, about as hot as you can get.

[frkelly74]

I am interested in how this gets answered. My own thinking would tend to favor a slower powder choice like IMR 3031 in a fairly moderate dose. ( better load density and a more gentle acceleration ) I have not used fillers in 30-30 but have found that they will tighten up groups in 06 loads using Accurate 2520 under cast boolits. Filler material does raise pressure so you can get the same performance with less powder, In other words if you use filler, decrease your powder charge.

[frkelly74]

So I should have asked, Where are you doing your shooting. We are in the throes of getting settled down here and I hope to get back to a normal shooting routine at some point.

[kungfustyle]

I have lucked out and shoot out at about 80 acres of a friends plot of land. There is room for a 500 yard range, but we have to get things situated first, clearing etc... If you want to shoot on day let me know. Also looks like http://chuluotasportsmensclub.com/ (150/year) is close to you or closer or the Central Florida rifle club(very nice but pricey). Best bet is to keep asking around and see if you can happen into some like I have.
Agreed on the powder. Next gun show I'll try to pick some up.

[1johnlb]

03-08-2011, 02:14 AM #2 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers&p=1188953&viewfull=1#post1188953) Larry Gibson (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?696-Larry-Gibson)

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I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler". I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.

I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 - 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through '06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 - 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.

The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron.

What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod. It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.

Larry Gibson



Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-03-2012 at 12:08 PM.


I tried to post the link but could not, HTML is turned off for some reason. You can also search for this thread, "Proper use of fillers".

[kungfustyle]

Thank you, this is one of the write ups that I did read and what got me thinking about using Dacron in the first place. I guess I was looking for a rule of thumb...-1g of powder /stay at least 2g from max or reduce by 10% from load data...

[1johnlb]

I started with 27.0gr of 4064 without dacron and ended up with 25.5 with dacron, after that all increase caused group size increase. This was in 303b.

Tried imr4227 and dacron in the 7.5x55 swiss. My sweet spot without dacron was 18.4. With dacron that sweet spot moved to between 17.0 to 17.5. I am still playing with this load, to try and tune it to optimum accuracy. This load maybe a bit deceiving though because I also changed projectile from Lee 155 to the NOE 180 K31, I only mentioned it because from past esperience with the 4227 bullet weight and case size only made .1 gr differences. I would be amazed if my load of 18.4 would decrease at all [without dacron]. Your milage may vary.

I haven't done any shooting with sr4759 and have been hesitant buying the 8#er at my LGS because of the talks of it's discontinuece from production. But my exsperience with the Lyman #4 manual, is best accuracy has been obtained, at least for me, at the lower end, closer to their start loads and with dacron it looks like it's going to be even lower. With standard load techniques of loading jax's in rifle cases with standard powder for the cartridge, for me, I have found that the close to or at max charges to be the more accurate loads. NOT SO with faster burning pistol powder and lead projectile, at least not so for me. I read it somewhere here, forget all you know about jax's when changing to lead boolits. SO FAR SO TRUE!

In the words of Mr. Gibson:

"Yes the Dacron filler will raise the pressure. Does so for 2 reasons; 1st it positions the powder and promotes more uniform ignition and efficient burning. 2nd sticking the Dacron filler in the case reduces case capacity.
How much it will raise the psi and whether or not the load needs to be adjusted depends on the load. Too many variables to guestimate"




Just my 2 cents is; I would stay away from that max charge. Go back to about 2 grs below start and work back up.

[kungfustyle]

thanks for the info. I'm starting at 15.5g(min load in the Lyman) and worked up to 17(17.7 max) for the 30-30, and loaded up some 06 w/ 23.2 to 25.2 w/ .5 grain increments to see if I can get a great load. High hopes, will post results.

[kungfustyle]

30-30 did OK about an 1 1/2 groups. something might be going on with my scope....
The 30-06 however, WOW!!!!!
This is why you use Dacron:
116352
116353
All groups are 4 rounds and yes some went into the same hole.... I was shocked, any one of those would be my sweet spot normally but wow.
Savage 30-06/ Lyman 311401 over 23.2 to 25.2 w/ Dacron. First time using it and it wont be the last.

[fouronesix]

Excellent shooting. That's why my go-to combination for target shooting cast out of many calibers including 30-30s and 30-06s is a mild to mid load of 5744 with dacron filler. 5744 is a small tad slower but very close to 4759 in bulk density and ballistics.

[1johnlb]

That's some nice shooting. Dacron is well worth the little extra time it takes. Hope you get the 30/30 shooting that good. I just might half to go get that 8#er of 4759 yet, after seeing those groups. I'm wondering how it would do in my garand.

[John Boy]

Winchester M94, 30-30, Williams peep and a too fat diopter pin on the front sight (which I later replaced)
Ideal 311413 GC - Brinell 15.3 - 170.8gr
16.5gr IMR 4759
http://www.three-peaks.net/images/311413_169g.gif

A box of 20:
* got the 0.481" setting for the 300m pigs - downed 3 in a row
* got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds

Subsequently - increased charge to 16.7gr and accuracy increased. No filler needed

[1johnlb]

Loaded 1 at the time I hope, and none in the tube.

[BAGTIC]

The ''Heat Index' is irrelevant to your ammo. All that matters is the actual thermometer reading.

[kungfustyle]

Well found out what was going on with my scope on the 30-30. The back scope ring was coming loose and couldn't tell till I started to tighten everything down. Now I've got that taken care of we will see what the next trip brings.

[Larry Gibson]

30-30 did OK about an 1 1/2 groups. something might be going on with my scope....
The 30-06 however, WOW!!!!!
This is why you use Dacron:
116352
116353
All groups are 4 rounds and yes some went into the same hole.... I was shocked, any one of those would be my sweet spot normally but wow.
Savage 30-06/ Lyman 311401 over 23.2 to 25.2 w/ Dacron. First time using it and it wont be the last.

Works, doesn't it! Nice shooting. It will also benefit your 4759 load. Drop back to the start load and work up to 1/2 gr less than the listed max.

Larry Gibson

[pls1911]

Larry speaks... others should take heed.
While all of Larry's advice/experience should be heeded, I Special attention should be paid to this:

Too little can be problem, and ,

"It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron....

What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. ...

It is quite easy and a lot of “precision" is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down."
-----------------

I always use a poly pill in 45/70, but rarely in 30-30, mostly due to laziness and the decent loading density provided by RL-7. I'll load 200+ at a sitting on a Dillon progressive, so it's a hassle to stop, unload, stuff, reload continue... The old Rockchucker is about as fast at that point...
I confess to never punching paper at 100 yards too, so I lay no claim to Olympic quality groups.
So long as my loads are a spot on at 25 yards on my sophisticated paper plate targets using old Marlins and open sights, they always seem to be much less than "minute of pig" out to 100 yards.

What has not been addressed has been the alleged benefit to the bore using dacron. I say alleged because my own experience has been that however clean your bore was left before, it's left MUCH cleaner with dacron use, normally requiring nothing more than an oiled patch run. It's much more noticed after a long day at the silhouette range and a hundred rounds down range without cleaning ( gas checked bullets too).
Your experience may vary.