Shot the .44 Spec. Flat Top today, have questions:

[Blackwater]

I'm trying to find a nice, mild, low recoil load to train my eldest (15 yr. old) grandson with. Initial load was 5.0 gr. 700X under Lee 200-RNFP's lubed with Felix lube in RP cases. Used a fair to middlin' crimp, but that Lee bullet doesn't have near the crimp groove a Keith type bullet does, so crimping is limited, but with fast burning 700X, that's never been a problem. Results were disappointing. Diabetes, and not eating any lunch had my hand a bit shaky, and irregular groups were the inevitable result. Note to self: "Lunch, dang it!" I probably ran a 10" group at 20 yds. - certainly no great shakes, and shots I called good were probably in a 6" group overall - NOT what I want. I can't very well train that grandson if I'm not sure misses aren't his fault. So ..... got a coupla'a questions:

First, has anyone loaded 700X in the .44 Spec for light loads before, and if so, what were the results? I'm looking for groups not over 1.5" at 20 to 25 yds. My aging eyes get a better sight picture (slightly) at 20 rather than the std. 25, so that's where I put the target.

Secondly: That Felix lube is some slick stuff! There was absolutely NO trace of leading - not even the slightest bit, and these bullets were cast pretty soft - @ 50/50 WW/soft lead. Didn't get to chrono them (forgot the chrono - yet ANOTHER "benefit" of age and wear - but will do that tomorrow. I'd guess vel. is @ 800-850 max, which is where I intended it to be, so that much at least appears to have worked out pretty close. I couldn't help, though, but wonder if Felix might not possibly be TOO slick, or too something to work well in these light loads. Can anyone comment on that?

Will be loading more of the same bullet with 50/50 alox/beeswax ASAP, just to see what happens. That's always worked with mild loads, but I'm open to suggestions here, and certainly open to experiencial anecdotes as well. Will also go up to 5.5 gr. 700X, and will try 5.0 & 5.5 Red Dot, just to see what happens there. Don't have any Bullseye and can't find any, so can't try that.

Now for the bright part of the day. I went to a buddy's house who is the best shot I know in this area, an old woodsman from WAY back who has more actual experience afield shooting or hunting than any 12 other people I know. He's the most accurate shot I know, and people call him "Lying Jimmie" because they think if they can't do what he's done, nobody can. Elmer Keith suffered from the same bad rap. I've shot with him for nearly 50 years because I wanted to be a better shooter, and shooting with him surely helped. My eyes were never as good as his, which are phenominal, even though he's not much younger than I am. Jimmie had 6 Keith type loads with the 240 gr. Oregon Trail SWC's over 7.5 gr. Unique with a good crimp, and we shot them. I shot the first two. First was virtually dead center bull. My hands were shaky, and I pulled and called the 2nd one low. Frustrated, and wanting to see what the gun could do, and not what I could do with it, I made Jimmie shoot the last 4. Didn't have to twist his arm too hard to get him to do that. His first shot was center bull, less than 1/2" from mine (2" bull @ 20 yds.). His 2nd shot was wide left, pulled and called the instant the bullet left the barrel. His hand slipped on our improvised rest. 3rd and 4th shots nearly centered his first, dead center bull, and couldn't have been much larger than 1/8" CTC. You could barely see the 3 curves as the bullets went almost into the same hole! Now THAT was the kind of results we all hope for, and rarely get. It could have been luck, of course, except he can do it with his std. load for his .45 LC Ruger, and some other guns he has, and has had, too many times to doubt the validity of the group. Not all are THAT small, but he regularly shoots 1" and less at 25, so ..... I guess you could say I'm quite excited about my new gun, and will be casting some 250 Lyman/Keiths ASAP.

So, now all I have to do is find a nice, mild, low recoail load. I also want to try the Lyman 429215 in HP and solid versions, but need to find that light load first, because it looks like I've already found a heavy load for my use on anything that requires it. Also want to use that mild load afield where it'll be less damaging to my already ringing ears. Can't/won't/don't always remember my muffs afield. (A 3rd "benefit" of getting older!)

Anyone got any suggestions for a good mild load in .44 Spec with 200 grainers? I plan to try 7.0 gr. Unique with it, but that's likely to give a little more oomph than I'd prefer for training the grandson - something like the upper 800's in my buddy's experience. Thanks ahead of time for any help.

[telebasher]

Try the Lee 200 gr Flat Point with 5 gr BE or 6 gr Unique.

[Deep Six]

I've had good luck with the lee 200 over 5.3 gr 700X. Shot into about 3" at 25 with my 4.625" flattop. Only more accurate load I've found is 15 gr 2400 under a 250 Keith, but that is probably a little much for your purposes.

[Horace]

I`ve always liked 4.5 grains of red dot with the 250 Keith.

Horace

[shoot-n-lead]

Never tried the light bullets in mine...shoots the heavier one's so well.

I would try the heavier bullets with a really light load of Unique...6 grs...low recoil and a bullet it prefers. Been shooting some at about 6.5grs of Unique under an approx 252gr 429421 in my 44 special Sheriff and it loves them and they are easy on the shooter, too. My standard load for the Flattops is 9.5grs of HS-6 with the 429421 and it is not bad at all...but is probably a little more than he would enjoy for starters.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have the same revolver and also a Charter Arms Bulldog with the 2.5 " bbl. That is a very light gun and it is no fun shooting it with a 240 gr lead boolit over 7 gr of unique. In fact it is quite painful. That being said I loaded it down to as low as 5 gr of Unique and I kinda am partial to 5.5 Gr of Unique and it is a nice loading for the little gun. I also load some with 6 gr of Unique for the Ruger and that is a pleasant and pretty accurate loading with the 240 gr SWC boolit.

[HeavyMetal]

try Lyman 429348 over 4.5 grains Bullseye Fed std pistol primer WW case

[leadman]

I have used 700X for many loads in rifles and handguns. Recently though I, along with several friends have had problems with 700X . Accuracy is not what it should be and for some reason when shooting a Hi-Tek coated boolit they tend to lead. When used with a wax based lube they leading is not an issue but accuracy is not as fine as it should be.
I sold all the 700X I had to a shotgun shooter and will use AA#2, Unique, or Blue Dot in the handguns for less than full loads.

[44man]

I would stay with Felix, I made hundreds of tests and always found it gave best accuracy. It should not be slippery if made right, it should be sticky.
I agree with all that a powder change it best to try. Unique, 231, etc.

[Blackwater]

44man, I know you to be as picky about your loads and components as I am. Have you noted any difference in the performance of primers in your loading of light loads? If so, what would you try (if I can find any) with the faster, easier to ignite powders like 700X? I've always found that a milder primer like the CCI 300 worked in .45 ACP, and assume it'd be similar in the Special. Have you done much mild loading for your guns? I frankly haven't, except for .38 Spec. and .45 ACP (with reduced power spring), so I'm in a virtually area for me.

[W.R.Buchanan]

5.5 to 6.0 W231 with 429421 or similar boolit.

The problem I see from your first post is you are having problems shooting the gun. Your original load will be much more accurate than 6" at 25 yards. In fact pretty much any load short of using .357 boolits in a .44 will be more accurate than 6" at 25 yards.

I think you're fine with what you've got. It's not the gun or the load. Guess what's left?

Randy

[44man]

44man, I know you to be as picky about your loads and components as I am. Have you noted any difference in the performance of primers in your loading of light loads? If so, what would you try (if I can find any) with the faster, easier to ignite powders like 700X? I've always found that a milder primer like the CCI 300 worked in .45 ACP, and assume it'd be similar in the Special. Have you done much mild loading for your guns? I frankly haven't, except for .38 Spec. and .45 ACP (with reduced power spring), so I'm in a virtually area for me.
Oh yes, primers are always tested. The .44 mag never needs a mag primer with any powder. We found a SP is better in the ACP. (SP brass) Use a standard in the special. The .357 does not matter between a standard and mag SP. I find little difference with SP primers.
Working the .45 Colt showed a fed 150 was good with 296 and the WW primer worked but never a full mag. The Colt is my break point, anything larger needs a mag.
The special never needs a mag primer.

[Char-Gar]

Don't let the term "bullet lubricant" throw you as that is not really it's purpose. It preforms two primary functions.

1. It seals the base of the bullet to keep the fire where it belong.

2. It form a barrier between the bullet and the barrel steel.

Good lubes do 1 and 2 above. Slippery and slick are adjectives that do not apply.

[R.M.]

You could try some Trailboss, if you can find it.

[tomme boy]

5.5-6 gr of unique is what we use under the 214 gr LEE with RandyRats Tac1 lube. Shoots minute of pop can out to about 40 yards.

[EDK]

I use 5.0 of TITEGROUP or HP38/231 with Lyman 429352 (Blammer's Old West group buy; my favorite for revolvers) or KEITH (MIHEC or MMA10MM) or round nose flat points. They all shoot better than my Original Size Vaqueros or I do. Some guns need another .5 grain to prevent sooty cases.
7.0 of UNIQUE...or HP38, etc...is over most of the published (anemic?) 44 Special data. Winchester Large Pistol primers.

[Blackwater]

Well, got the chrono out (forgot it yesterday) and got some strange results: AV was 707, much less than I'd anticipated. Hi was 792, Lo 379 (that's not a typo!), ES 413, SD 109 and AD 62. For those who are curios, vel's ran: 742, 704, 727, 379, 705, 697, 677740, 766, 776,792 and 777. Excepting the 379 reading, EV spread was still @ 120 fps, which in a SA tends to matter with respect to POI. I have faith in the Felix lube, even though this is my first foray with it, so will next try 5.5 gr. and see if that stabilizes the load better. Hodgdon's lists 700X as low as 4.1 gr @ 831 fps, but they used an 8" test barrel. Speer used a Cimmaron 5.5" SA and show no load lighter than 5.4 gr. 700X with their 200 grainer. Looks like my gun is more like what Speer used in testing. They also cautioned in their text on the .44 not to load below their stated min. loads, which they said produced in the vicinity of 11,000 psi, or large variations could occur. Looks like they were right. This is the problem with loading today. We've got so much load data, and it varies so widely, that we shooters can't be certain what data to go with, so mostly, we start low and work up - the rational ones among us, anyway. Lots of variables here - lube, powder, charge wt. - so I may be busy for a while, but will report back what I find. Actually, this is part of what makes loading so interesting. My buddy shot the Keith load of 7.5 Unique with whatever 240-250 gr. SWC's he ran into with such good results that he's never sought any further loads, BUT .... he's not trying to teach a young shooter, either. I learned long ago that each gun is a law unto itself, and each one has to be "learned" by actual shooting. The load books are great, and I have a shelf full of them, accumulated over the last 40+ years, but we've STILL got to SHOOT the darn things and experiment when we don't get good initial results if we want to be able to produce those bragging groups on demand.

Oh yes! I DO understand about the lube thing. I used the word "slick" inappropriately to describe how clean the barrel was. It also smoked MUCH less than 50/50 does. I'm pretty impressed with it. I like it, and am staying with it unless and until it proves that I need a change. Thanks all the same, though. Keep me honest whenever I err!

[45 2.1]

Don't have any Bullseye and can't find any, so can't try that.
Anyone got any suggestions for a good mild load in .44 Spec with 200 grainers?

Most of the older 44 Specials were regulated for 245 gr. slugs with fixed sights. The 200 to 220 gr. boolits shoot well at higher velocities for the cartridge. There is one shinning load for the 44 Special...... one which you don't have the powder or boolit for...... and that is: the Lyman 429383 sized 0.431" out of WW or softer alloy with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye. The loads capability are far beyond almost anyone's skill level to use. I used to take it to South Dakota to shoot prairie dogs with when rifles got boring.

[tomme boy]

Have you ever measured the cylinder gap?

[Blackwater]

Cylinder gap is pretty tight, about what I'd want it to be.

.45-2.1, THAT is the kind'a info I was hoping for, but you're right, I don't have any Bullseye, despite having been looking for some for a while now. It's plumb embarassing not to have Bulseye, but I won't compound the error by lying about it. Ol' Murphy works in all kinds of fields, doesn't he? Thanks for the info. Will have to give that a try if and when I find some BE to use. I don't know how it'd do better than that 7.5 Unique, but trying stuff is what leads us to better loads, and becoming better shots. Have been trying to do that for 50 years now. Had an elder uncle that was a phenomenal shotgun shot. Last time I shot with him, he was 81, and didn't miss a dove the whole day long. Guys like that have always been my heroes, and I USED to be able to at least never be embarrassed with a rifle or pistol, but never was that good with a shotgun. I was just having fun with the scattergun, and never focused or took it really serioously, like I did the rifle and pistol. Now, I'm wanting to get into sporting clays, too, to see if I can rectify that. A man just can't get any better than he's aiming for, and without a real, serious goal with the scattergun, I never developed much talent. With the rifle and pistol, there was always that thought in the back of my mind that it MIGHT be the determinant one day in whether I lived to come home, or went to the morgue. That's a powerful motivator, when you realize you're really mortal. I also learned long ago that one good shot is all ever really get, unless you're very, very lucky, whether afield or wherever, so I consciously tried to learn to be the very best shot I could be, and as quick, too. Many hours and rounds down on the lower 40 helped a great deal, especially with the speed part. That's why I'm so "picky" I guess you'd call it, about my loads and their accuracy. Can't learn much if you're not sure a miss is YOUR fault, and not the load's. That's why I'm searching for a really accurate mild load for my grandson. Can't teach him much without knowing what he did with each shot. I've trained him to think that way with a rifle, and he's responded very well. Good kid. I'm really proud of him. He applies himself, and is fairly serious minded for a kid of 15, which is really good, especially today.

If the Lee bullet just won't shoot, or I can't find a really accurate load, will have to go to the Thompson 429215, but I hate to have to use a GC if I can avoid it, and always have the Keith bullets too. Mildly loaded, maybe they'll be the ones that do what I want, but I'm trying to find "The Load" in an orderly and logical way. Those "magic loads" don't always come easily or quickly, and in what experience I've had at the lower end of the pressure scale, they're harder to find there than with full power loads. All powders burn better and more consistently with a little pressure. Nobody said this was easy, but .... it sure is FUN!

[44man]

I like the way you think! I want to give you something else that might work, forget about recoil. When I was 15 we hunted for it, even pulling both triggers on double barrel 12 ga, spun us in a circle and pulled the forearm off, dumping the barrels on the ground! I was not very old when I could shoot a hundred .300 Weatherby rounds a day. Got that thing to 1/2 min at 500 yards.
I learned to teach backwards from everyone else. I start with a gun with recoil first. It takes no time at all for a youngster to tame a .44 mag. They actually love it. Then the light stuff will get boring for them but they shoot better.
A friend brought his sons to shoot, I had my BFR in .500 JRH, I would shoot and hand it toward his oldest but he was afraid so I held it out with one hand and shot to show him. He took the gun and with a few shots he was busting pop cans at 50 yards, off hand better then I do from the bench. His grin was amazing. Then he showed what he could do at 100 with his dads .454 Freedom.
I was 19 when I bought my first .44 BH in 1956, got it through the mail from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. $96. Factory loads to get brass and they were HOT, first shot had me look at the gun to see what blew up. That started a love affair that never quit. I had dies and a mold before the gun showed up and was shooting the Keith way even then to over 500 yards. I took hair off a running chuck, off hand at 550 yards once. I pace exactly 3'.
Don't baby the kid with pipsqueak loads, teach to not flinch or have fear. He will take to a REAL load like a duck to water. I never wanted a POP, I wanted POWER! Kids love it.

[44man]

Never shoot a rabbit with a .44 mag. Mine was on my hip when bird hunting, found a sitting rabbit, pulled the .44 and aimed at it's nose---WRONG, I got two back legs only. :veryconfu

[Blackwater]

44man, you make a good point, and that's exactly how I learned to shoot the .44 SuperB when I first got one. Also used to shoot what now is considered way overloads in the ACP then, too, but without a chrono, I just shot what I read about in the glossy mags. My gun never cracked or hickuped with them, but I did put an extra power recoil spring in it. Went down to the lower 40 and just laid with it until I learned a good, solid grip, about like a strong handshake'd be, was a big part of the key. Then just learned to concentrate on sights and squeeze, and got to be pretty good. Was never embarassed by anyone, but my eyesight was never any great shakes, so a couple of guys could shade me pretty good.

Found out about those longer distances quite by accident one day. There was a 5 gal. bucket on the pond dam we'd been shooting at, and it was @ 215 yds. away as nearly as I could figure afterwards (can't walk on water just yet!) The guys said it was time to quit because we'd run out of targets and shot what we'd brought to pieces. I had a good deal of ammo left, and bragadociously declared "What? There's that bucket across the pond, let's shoot at that." They scoffed, of course, so I feigned hurt feelings and planted my butt by a big pine, resting my back against it and my forearms across and just behind the knees, and asked one to spot for me. Held dead on and he told me the drop. The first couple of shots had all hit pretty close, he said, and I held the front sight above the notch, and cut loose. That one hit just below the bucket, so I corrected, and hit the can with the next 3, rocking it and moving it just a bit. Needless to say, with this being before silhouette shooting was even thought about, they were impressed, and one said "Bet ya' cain't do that again!" I loaded up and hit is 5 out of 6, and I don't believe the 6th one missed by more than a hair. Around here, I don't get a lot of chances to shoot past 100 yds. but I do so every chance I get, to at least try to keep my hand in as much as I can. Can't claim to be a great long range shooter, especially now that diabetes makes my hands shake a lot more than they used to, but I wouldn't want me shooting at me at any distance. It's all just method and consistency, really. No magic to it at all. It really needs to be done with something reasonably fast, like the .44 and similar, and of course the load has to be capable of fine accuracy, but it's FAR from undoable, and if more folks would just give it a try, I think they'd be very surprised at what their real capabilities are. They might not be quite as lucky as I was at first, but that's just part of the learning curve. I hope to have Cole, my grandson doing some of this soon. There's nothing like surprising one's own self to keep that spirit of investigation and performance up, and that's what makes really good shooters. THEN, he'll start to get interested in learning to cast good bullets, and making up good loads, too. We gotta' keep these boolit skills up in the younger generation, or they'll all just go away. Preservation is everything, especially with what they're taught in schools and colleges today. He's coming along, and can actually think logically pretty well, when he wants to. Lots of influences out there trying to un-do that, but .... having fun with a sixgun trumps that just about every time. Lessons learned afield are what taught our ancestors how to think critically and accurately, and if we'll just apply them, they still work today.

Thanks for the tip. I was already beginning to think of that, and if I can't find a good light load, that's probably what I'll do. After all, like you said, the excitement of shooting a "big gun" with "big loads" is a powerful stimulant, and Cole is pretty stubborn when it comes to accomplishing something he sets out to do. wonder where he gets THAT from??? His Mom and Dad are the same way, so he got a double dose. Good kid. I think I'll keep him! ;^)

[44man]

I never had a teacher, my dad knew nothing about guns or fishing. Poor man worked too hard. Never had much money and I was taken rabbit hunting by neighbors, no boots, tennis shoes in snow. But to hunt and shoot was more important. I bought guns and fishing equipment with paper route money. What a wonderful day when a kid could buy a gun on credit with no interest. I learned to never cheat and pay bills and still appreciate the good store owners to this day. Best was Avon Hardware and Guns. I would go in and say "I want a Weatherby or Browning" told, no problem. I still have the superposed Browning. I bought 25# bags of shot for $5 and all the wads I needed.
I hung around at Hart Arms in Cleveland and could buy anything as a kid. Did gunsmith work even then and the Hart Arms gunsmith told me to take parts to Cleveland Black Oxide to get blued.
Shooters today do not know how great it was.
The boy will thrive with a REAL gun. There is no need to start with a .22 or .38. Give him 200 yard targets for fun and just watch how happy he is.
My daughter is an expert shot. She broke every clay with a 20 so I went and got the 12, she broke every clay. I gave her my flint lock and she broke a bottle at 75 yards off hand. She shot the highest score ever by a woman in the Marines, she beat all the men. Soon after they promoted women with a certain score. She missed that.
I won the 500 KD shoot in the army with the M1. Had one nine only. Another story and why I was not bashed is strange. I shot record and had extra rounds. I shot other posters that came up on other targets. I shot maggie's drawers and shot sticks in half with the post disk that was risen for scores.
The funniest was when I shot a 2"x2" stake down at another target and the Sarge was watching the shooter. I heard him say "the target dummy, not the stake."
The sarge in the pit was pissed and when guys from the pit came back they came in the door and screamed "Miner, you SOB" I said "what".
Next day cheating went on but I still got the trophy.
Even the BAR hung from a sling, pop up targets. I just shot them right off, Sarge was mad, said start in the ground and walk up, I said "why? Did I miss any?" Threw grenades like a baseball. Got hollered at until he said "good throw."
Worst was the Bazooka, gave us cotton to stuff in ears, NO, even 100 yards was too much blast!
I shot rifle grenades from my shoulder.
I thought recoil was FUN.

[Blackwater]

Yeah, it's funny, ain't it, how this shooting thing is so simple. Simple, though, doesn't mean EASY! Mostly, it just takes discipline and focus. Diabetes and neuropathy have seriously degraded my abilities, and in particular, my consistency - the reason I shoot with my buddy Jimmie for a controlled standard. If HE's having trouble too, I know it's not all me. However, I'm learning how to control the diabetes better, and problems are fewer and less severe. I still wouldn't want me shooting at me, but .... well, I'm still not as consistent as I want to be again. I shot PPC years ago, and won a lot of matches. Only one guy on our team (Parole) was a challenge, but he was good, too. Got concerned that the stylistic rules of PPC, which was mainly aimed at getting guys who can't shoot to qualify, would degrade my preparedness in a real fight, so practiced it as little as possible. After all, we fight like we train, and standing straight up and firing like the prescribed method in PPC ain't a real smart way to fight for real! I also used to shoot the 50 yd. slow fire target in record time. Never saw any point in taking so long to aim when it just tires the arms more and thus induces more tremor.

Most impressive shooter I've ever shot with was a State Trooper, a man of avg. height, slim build, and as far as I could tell, absolutely NO blood flowing through his veins. You couldn't even see him breathe. Very quiet fellow, he didn't say much, but walked to the line and shot just over a 1" group at 50 yds. in the center of the X ring. He had a customized gun that would do that. The ammo we used was the absolute worst stuff I've ever seen or heard of. I got 1,000 rds. every 6 mo. from being on the team, but hated to shoot it because it fouled and leaded the barrel so badly. How his gun, custom or not, got that kind of group with that stuff is beyond my understanding! Had a Lewis lead remover, and it was the ONLY thing that'd clean a gun after shooting that ammo.

I don't claim to be a champion shot. Always wanted to be speedy, too, and "good enough" with speed was more my goal. Works pretty well in the hunting fields or wherever, and can matter in a fight. However, you just can't test a load if you can't shoot accurately and give it a fair chance to show you what IT can do, rather than what YOU can do with the load. That's a big difference, and it's why I shoot with my buddy these days. Hopefully, as I learn to handle the diabetes better, I'll gain some consistency again, and get some of the speed I've lost back. Hopefully! These 'Golden Years" are full of surprises and challenges, aren't they? You've obviously taken better care of yourself than I have, but this is a heckuva' time to realize that. All I can do now is try to be a little smarter and better informed. It's taken almost 2 years and lots and lots of testing with my meter to find out what I can eat, and how much, to stay on a fairly even keel. This is part of shooting, too, and it's no accident that those who are good & heallthy tend to shoot better. Doc said last visit that if I keep what I've been doing up, and lose some weight, I can come off the meds and just control it by diet only. That's my goal, healthwise now. Was at a church social recently and somebody brought a nice, moist sour cream pound cake, 2-layer type, with white icing, and they'd poured blueberries all over the top, with syrup. WOW! Don't have food call out my name like that cake did! I must have been a bear in a previous life because I LOVE blueberries, and sour cream pound cake is the only cake I really like! Never touched it, not even a "taste." Was difficult, but I've found pride in success and resulting stability physically, beats a fleeting moment of pleasure with stuff like that. Shaky hands just ain't good when you're shooting a handgun! And I want to shoot well again more than I want to eat stuff I just can't any more. The battle continues, but like any decent soldier, I'm getting better at fighting it. I CAN still shoot, but I've got to stay better prepared than I've been in the past couple of years. Ate a sandwich for breakfast the morning of the shoot above, and didn't have lunch, and that had my hands shaky. Won't be doing that very often again. Was in a hurry to git'r done, but since I'm retired, I'm getting more and more patient, especially with my own self. Life's lessons come in many places and ways, and the most important thing is that we just pay attention so we can learn them the first time, rather than paying the price for NOT noticing. Funny, but it's just like shooting - the more attention we focus on it, the better our results. And there's never any substitute for simple, dogged determination and resolve. Until I just simply resolved for myself that I WAS going to get to be a better shot, I was only average. It's attention to details that makes us better at anything, shooting included. Funny how that works, ain't it?

[44man]

I have no health problems but do have old age shakes. I can't do what I did a few years ago either.
I understand the problem. Only thing I want is for the boolit to go to sights even if waving all over. Still want to shoot my revolvers at 100 yards, not 20. I use a "cheater" now, folded target paper in a "V" on my nose to raise my glasses. Darn sure makes sights better to see.
I still love a real gun and prefer my .500 JRH over any other gun. or the .475 for deer. I only seen one gun I would not shoot, a .50 Alaskan with a Bisley, friend split his head wide open. A Bisley from me needs tossed as far as I can throw it. I am not recoil sensitive at all but am not stupid either. Shot rifles that went 90* up and that is just stupid. Some rifles can tear the heart loose.There is a limit!
Big revolver, go with heavy and longer barrels.
I still don't believe in starting a youngster with a .22 and then a .38, etc. the .44 mag is a better start. recoil with a .44 is nothing after all. Unless you have a 329 that weighs ounces.

[dondiego]

It seems that I have seen so many novice shooters develop a terrible flinch after shooting .44 mags that I think that they might have been better off learning to shoot first with a .22. Some of the ones that I have seen flinch badly when I leave an empty chamber in their .22 revolvers! They claim not to flinch at all when shooting their .44 though! Yea, right!

[44man]

It seems that I have seen so many novice shooters develop a terrible flinch after shooting .44 mags that I think that they might have been better off learning to shoot first with a .22. Some of the ones that I have seen flinch badly when I leave an empty chamber in their .22 revolvers! They claim not to flinch at all when shooting their .44 though! Yea, right!
Flinch is just as easy with a .22, seen it but cure it with a .44 and things get easy. Teach first.

[Blackwater]

Having taught a number of women to shoot, I found that plugs and muffs took ALL the fear out of shooting, and I'd tell them they wouldn't understand what I was going to have them do, but if they'd just do it, they'd understand afterward. Then I'd get them to close their eyes and just point the first 5 rounds down at a 45 degree angle into the dirt, without trying to hit anything. When that was over, they were shocked at how little the recoil affected them, and we could then settle down and learn to HIT something, which every one I've done this with subsequently did very well. Women are a LOT easier to train than most men. They're more maleable and LISTEN so much better. Once that fear of recoil (actually fear of the muzzle blast) is overcome, the rest is easy, and they've consistently been amazed at how simple it really is, and how quickly they became proficient with their guns. Confidence was the resullt, which is of inestimable value. I'd rather teach a woman to shoot any day than most men. They don't have their egos tied up in making a show of things, and they LISTEN. Kids are a lot like that too, usually, though some today seem to be afraid of "making a mistake." Being didactic just doesn't work very well, and attitude of the instructor makes a big difference. The events have to be fun and luckily, that's not a difficult thing to do. Even I can do it!

You know, I may very well just do as you say and go with those Keith loads right out of the box, like you say. His determination should bridge any initial uncertainties pretty well. Actually, it's ME who wants the mild loads. Cheaper to shoot (my old Scots heritage keeps that a factor), won't mess up my already ringing ears as much, and they'll kill paper as good as a .600 Nitro. That's also why I liked 700X for so long. Like Bullseye, a little goes a long way, and with powder prices, and especially its AVAILABILITY, that may get more important as time goes by. I sure don't see much indicating otherwise, but I'm no prophet, and I hope I'm wrong.

You've got me thinking. The only way to teach someone to shoot well, is to be sure you can rely on the fact that where the bullet lands was THEIR doing, and not the variability of the load. Hmmmmm. Got to come up with something quick before the "new" wears off the gun, and he's not as excited about it. Thanks for reminding me of what I should have thought of in the first place.