7.62 Nagant Chrono Results

[Doc1982]

I've been playing around a lot with the7.62 x 38R Nagant round lately. There seems to be a lot of discussionabout what it can and can't take. Going off the original specs foundhere:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?217773-Translated-historical-info-from-the-USSR-on-1895-Nagant-ammunition

we get a max pressure of 15,646 psi.Converting this to a rough estimate of CUP using the formula (PSI+ 17902)/1.516 we get about 22,129CUP.


I used 32H&R load data as astarting point. The listed OAL is usually around 1.3, in a Nagantround it's around 1.5. This should serve to lower the pressure a bitmore for a bit of wiggle room.


Using what powder I could actually findI worked up a few starting loads based off these, as well as usingthe popular online load of 3.5gr of Trail Boss. I tried to keep myloads to listed 32 H&R data around 16000 CUP, which should leaveme well under the max PSI. Ironically enough the common load of 3.5grof Trail Boss is, as far as I can tell, over max pressure based onwhat I can see from 32-20 data. But I've found it mentioned enoughthat I didn't feel unsafe shooting it.


I've tested both Starline 32-20 brassconverted to 7.62 Nagant, and PPU 7.62 Nagant Brass. There's adefinate increase in velocity with the real gas seal brass, but itsure is a pain to load. I can go into that in another post if folkswant.


So far I have this data:
32-20 Brass
95 gr Flat Point Cast, 3.4gr 700x,844/801/807 fps
95 gr Flat Point Cast, 3.5gr TrailBoss, 772/814/729 fps
115 gr Flat Nose Cast, 3.5 gr TrailBoss, 769/734/761 fps


PPU Brass
85 gr Hornady HP @ 308, 3.5gr TrailBoss, 895/878/906/920
85 gr Hornady HP @ 308, 3.8gr TrailBoss, 970/949/969/962
85 gr Hornady HP @ 308, 3.5gr 700x,995/1005/991/987
85 gr Hornady HP @ 308, 4.5gr 800x,931/923/958/979
85 gr Hornady HP @ 308, 4.3gr AutoComp1022/1045/1028/982
100gr Flat Nose Cast, 3.5gr Trail Boss,915/899/928/917
115gr Flat Nose Cast, 3.5 gr TrailBoss, 865/897/861/838/864/861/878/882/859/848




Surplus 108gr JFP 959/916
PPU Factory Load 637/680/671/656/721

[Scharfschuetze]

That gas seal design was an interesting concept. I've often wondered how effective it was/is at sealing the cylinder-barrel gap or if it was just a good idea on paper. Looks like, on average, you are getting about a 100 fps higher velocity with the gas seal brass.

[ThaDave]

The gas seal works if you want to supress it, its about the only revolver that you can even partly supress. Other than that it doesnt its more of a cool idea but dumb in practice.

If I found one for a great price I'd grab if nothing else just for the history. How do you like yours?

[Nobade]

The thing to keep in mind is when this revolver was designed, black powder was in common use. If you look at it from that perspective, it is absolutely brilliant. It is the only revolver you can fire with black powder and never foul out. All the fouling stays in the bore, none gets in the works. It is a snap to clean up afterward because of this.

I load my ammo for it with real black, and using the Ideal #3118 or the Lee 100gr. round nose and a compressed charge of Old Eynsford FFFg, I can easily exceed 1000 fps with extremely good accuracy and no worries of over pressuring things. After trying quite a bit of smokeless loads in it, I settled on black powder because it gives better performance than any smokeless I tried as well as being more fun to shoot with all the smoke and flames!

It is also very easy to load with the PPU brass since the boolit is seated flush with the case mouth with an arbor press, and the only die used is a 30 Carbine taper crimp die to crimp the mouth just enough to allow the cartridges to chamber. No resizing required, and a universal decapper used to knock out the primer. (OK, two dies. But the decap doesn't touch the case.)

-Nobade

[340six]

What are you using for brass?

[Doc1982]

I'm using once fired PPU brass for the actual Nagant loads, and Starline 32-20 brass for the converted ones.

As far as how I like it, I love this pistol! It's surprisingly quite accurate with good loads in it, and the trigger with a little work can be amazing in single action. I've found the gas seal good for about an extra 100fps, so that's really a measurable difference. Also, like Nobade mentioned, it keeps it a lot cleaner than a normal revolver. The history behind it is great, mine is a CCCP Marked 1927 from Tula.

Black powder is on my "to try" list for this round, I'll make sure to post my results. I'm still doing a bit of research on it, this is the first time I'll be loading a non-smokeless powder. What kind of primers are you using for your BP rounds? I've seen some talk about problems with consistency of burn. Would I be better off using magnum primers? I've even seen magnum rifle primers suggested by one guy for BP in this round.

[Tackleberry41]

I really havent messed with mine a whole lot. I just went with 32-20 brass, used trailboss so I didnt have to try and dig up ammo for it. Probably should get out and mess around with it more as cheap as it is to shoot.

I can see where the gas seal would be nice with BP, you want have the fouling everywhere, but only works with the full length brass cases. 32-20 you still have blowby. From what I have read you dont get some huge boost in velocity, 50 fps or so.

I was looking at an article converting 223 brass for use in making full length brass, dont know if you can size the full length in the Lee dies made for 32-20 brass?

[Nobade]

Black powder is on my "to try" list for this round, I'll make sure to post my results. I'm still doing a bit of research on it, this is the first time I'll be loading a non-smokeless powder. What kind of primers are you using for your BP rounds? I've seen some talk about problems with consistency of burn. Would I be better off using magnum primers? I've even seen magnum rifle primers suggested by one guy for BP in this round.

No problems here using normal small pistol primers. I still can't figure out why he was having such a variation in velocities by using mag primers, BP is very easy to ignite and normally the weakest primer you can get is the one to go with. No big deal to use BP in ammo, make sure you use a proper BP type bullet lube (beeswax/crisco/canola oil works well) or commercial like SPG or Bullshop's NASA lube. And use enough gunpowder to give some decent compression when the bullet is seated. You need to wash the cartridge cases after they're fired, otherwise nothing to it!

-Nobade

[leadman]

I found the PPU brass is very thin compared to the Russian surplus. This makes the mouth flare out a touch into the end of the barrel and makes it hard to extract the cases from the cylinder of my gun. I trim the PPU back to the end of the barrel and it works good this way.
When gas seal cases are used it is a very easy revolver to clean, just the barrel needs a couple of patches.
I haven't shot mine in awhile so will have to get it out and play with it again.

[WRideout]

I agree that it is a fun little gun to shoot. Mine needs a trigger job; the weight of the trigger pull is horrendous. Lately, I have been loading plinker rounds of 2.0 gr Red Dot, no filler, under a .30 cal round ball (around single 0 buck size) with a WW SP primer. My only complaint with the PPU factory cases is that they work harden when you crimp them down, and split the mouths. I suppose I need to anneal them, but have never done that with any of my cases yet.

As far a reforming .223 cases, I found that even when I run them through the sizing die, then remove the lower half bulge, the case rim that is left is not big enough diameter to hold them in the cylinder.

Wayne

[Doc1982]

I opened mine up, and put a machine nut under the main spring. Filed it down untill function was good. I've also read of them using 30 cal bullets smushed down. Helped trigger pull quite a bit.
I've so far not had any problems with my brass, but with how far down I have to expand them to seat some bullets I'm expecting it soon. To not bend the brass with the 85gr Hornady XTPs I have to expand almost the entire length of the bullet with a .312 32 H&R Cowboy Plug in the RCBS die. The stock one is only .308. The RCBS puts a very gradual crimp on the round, like the surplus ammo rather than the huge crimp on PPU Factory brass. I've got it set so they will just chamber.
Where's your POI with that round? I've been thinking of making some of those in Nagant & 32 ACP. Also been wanting to try some red dot, but i haven't seen any since I've started reloading.

[WRideout]

Doc, the round ball load is about dead on the sights at 15 yards or so. As far as lack of Red Dot, you could probably use any reasonably fast shotgun powder; Hi-skor, Green Dot etc. Or Bullseye. I use unique in my full-house loads for the Nagant, and it is pretty clean-burning, although a lot of folks here complain about it burning dirty.

Wayne

[WRideout]

The thing to keep in mind is when this revolver was designed, black powder was in common use. If you look at it from that perspective, it is absolutely brilliant. It is the only revolver you can fire with black powder and never foul out. All the fouling stays in the bore, none gets in the works. It is a snap to clean up afterward because of this.

I load my ammo for it with real black, and using the Ideal #3118 or the Lee 100gr. round nose and a compressed charge of Old Eynsford FFFg, I can easily exceed 1000 fps with extremely good accuracy and no worries of over pressuring things. After trying quite a bit of smokeless loads in it, I settled on black powder because it gives better performance than any smokeless I tried as well as being more fun to shoot with all the smoke and flames!

It is also very easy to load with the PPU brass since the boolit is seated flush with the case mouth with an arbor press, and the only die used is a 30 Carbine taper crimp die to crimp the mouth just enough to allow the cartridges to chamber. No resizing required, and a universal decapper used to knock out the primer. (OK, two dies. But the decap doesn't touch the case.)

-Nobade

Nobade, I am interested in trying the BP loads in the Nagant. What's a good starting load for the 100 gr Lee boolit? I know, all the warnings about published data, but I just don't expect to find any for this combination.
Wayne

[Nobade]

Nobade, I am interested in trying the BP loads in the Nagant. What's a good starting load for the 100 gr Lee boolit? I know, all the warnings about published data, but I just don't expect to find any for this combination.
Wayne

Hi Wayne,
Loading with BP couldn't be easier. Just use enough FFFg to give about 1/8 inch of compression when you seat the bullet. IIRC that's about 1.3cc if you have the Lee dippers. You can't overload it with black powder, and if you use too little you get poor performance and more fouling, so it's pretty foolproof. No need to resize the cases, in fact it's better if you don't. I like to use an arbor press to seat the bullets, but a vise would work as well. A light taper crimp and you're set. Use soft lead and a good black powder compatible lube.

-Nobade

[WRideout]

Thanks. I will give that a try.
Wayne

[kawasakifreak77]

Man I wish I woulda kept my Nagant now! Keep up the good work guys, I hadn't ever stumbled across this much info for loading one!

[Nobade]

Man I wish I woulda kept my Nagant now! Keep up the good work guys, I hadn't ever stumbled across this much info for loading one!

Ya, they're kind of lame with the available factory ammo. Better with the Russian military issue stuff, and far more fun with black powder handloads!

-Nobade

[WRideout]

One day, just for fun, I tried shooting with my collection of pistols at a 100 yard target I had up . The only one I could consistently keep on the paper was the Nagant; it seems to be a lot flatter shooting than the 38's. I was using full-house handloads with the Lee 100 gr. boolit.

Wayne

[kawasakifreak77]

Never in a hundred years would I have thought about black powder..

I wonder if the speer 1835 (110 grain .30 carbine hollowpoint) could be pushed fast enough to work in a Nagant.

[WRideout]

Never in a hundred years would I have thought about black powder..

I wonder if the speer 1835 (110 grain .30 carbine hollowpoint) could be pushed fast enough to work in a Nagant.
When I first started handloading for the Nagant, I used the 30 cal Hornady 100 gr half-jackets, which I had half a box left over. They worked fine with Red Dot; I started out with 32-20 data at the low end of the range.
Wayne