ML Dreamin

[skullmount]

ML Dreamin
OOPS finger slip on title line...

First off Thank you to the guys here that have put up with my PM about bullets for this project.

And to the Traditional guys, if you don't want to be upset by an in-line don't read any further.

I will give a brief intro.

I like the smaller caliber front stuffers, and have talked about it with a few people that did not yell "squirrel gun".......
So last fall......... I took a ride Saturday afternoon and stopped at a couple of sporting
goods stores and I spotted a composite stock at one of them, which got me to
dreamin' about a smaller caliber ML again.


I had a used White Super 91 in .451 that would shoot about 11/2" if I did my part but the fouling was really a bear to deal with so....I have a .451 barrel sitting on my desk and the rest of the thing is down south for the winter, call it a snowbird ;D

Barrel in lathe.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/1carlsbl_.jpg

Another view.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2carlsbl.jpg

[skullmount]

I guess I can't go back and correct my finger slip on the title....

Should be ML Dreamin



A couple more.....

On action.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/3actionbl.jpg

Custom plug/nipple.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/4carlsbl.jpg

[skullmount]

Crown
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/5carlsbl.jpg

Bator heavy mold
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/6carlsbl.jpg

[skullmount]

In micrometer, Lyman 358009 from Bullshop, the other is the Bator Heavy
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9thirtyfivebullets.jpg

Rifle .350
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/92carlsrifle_002.jpg

[skullmount]

Second target
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/97testtargII.jpg

Third "Sunday" Target
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/991sundaygroups_001.jpg

[Bullshop]

Kin a talk now? Man I aint never kept a secret this long bafor. Lookin good, lookin real good. I want one!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[skullmount]

Kin a talk now? Man I aint never kept a secret this long bafor. Lookin good, lookin real good. I want one!
Blessings
BIC/BS

Dan,

Thanks, You can talk now.

...and thank you for the great bullets !

What do you cast in .350 or so that will weigh around 250 grains & up ?


did I send you another PM on that barrel ?

[idahoron]

What was the donor stock and action? was it a knight? Also what was your speed on those bullets? Rate of twist on the barrel?
Also are you paper patching them? If not that might tighten the groups up a bit. also instead of a card try a felt wad. looks like a good start. Ron

[Bullshop]

OOPS forgot to slugg that barrel. Gotta keep after me, I aint gettin younger ya know.
I gotta cupla .350"s at about 250gn or a tad more in pure lead. One from Rapine and one from NEI. They aughta be les trouble sizing. Dont forget ya gotta give the nasa lube a little credit.
I am gona head for the shop and slugg that barrel so's I dont forget again. When I get there if I dont remember why I am there what should I do?
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Maven]

Very impressive!

[skullmount]

What was the donor stock and action? was it a knight? Also what was your speed on those bullets? Rate of twist on the barrel?
Also are you paper patching them? If not that might tighten the groups up a bit. also instead of a card try a felt wad. looks like a good start. Ron



Donor was a White Super 91 in .451, I bought used, for the right price.

The .451 would shoot 1 1/2 to 2" but the fouling was a bear !

The bullets were not sent over the chrony, but woodgoat (builder/shooter) thinks they are going about 1250 or so.

Twist is 14

No paper patch, this is a slip fit type that we are trying to get to the right size sizer for the bullets.

The last 7 shots are at 1 3/8" so I think we are close.....

We could really use a .348 Win mold to cast some other bullets that we don't have to size 3 times to get down to .349

[skullmount]

Very impressive!

Thank You !

[idahoron]

1 3/8 is very good. It was hard to tell by the target. Sounds like a cool project. Why not try the paper patch? it would be interesting to see how it affected the groups. Looks good so far! Ron

[Rattus58]

\How in the world were you being plagued by fouling in a .451? I've been known to go ALL DAY without a single swab with 3" groups or less... and all day is a pound of powder. Now it's true that my bold would have to be removed and cleaned and I generally bulled my plug every 20-40 shots depending how hot I was shooting.

So question, where did this barrel come from? I can see you are using an original 91 style lug. That could account for a half inch right off the bat and after a few more heavy loads... well I''d chuck it and use a real lug, especially since you have the tools to put a lug on.

I like your caliber selection and the 280 grain bullet your using should be just perfect. You may want to fuss with velocity to find the right RPS for accuracy.

Beautiful...

Aloha... :cool:

[skullmount]

\How in the world were you being plagued by fouling in a .451? I've been known to go ALL DAY without a single swab with 3" groups or less... and all day is a pound of powder. Now it's true that my bold would have to be removed and cleaned and I generally bulled my plug every 20-40 shots depending how hot I was shooting.

So question, where did this barrel come from?


Tom,
Big font for ya, :-D

This gun was used and abused. New B&C stock though :drinks:Last spring I lapped it three times to get it inside of 2 inches, using 777 they were bad, but not as bad as this past fall when I went to Swiss fff.
One of the grooves at the breech has about three inches of pitting running right up it.

The new barrel came from Midsouth, it is an Adams & Bennett .358 f44 contour.

[smilie=1:

[Rattus58]

How cool..... you might have to pump it up a tad to spin it a little faster maybe... :)

Aloha.. :cool:

[skullmount]

UPDATE :-D

Since last time, he bedded the action so that the barrel is free floated. So far, none of the five Whites he's fooled with like to be free floated and this one is acting like the others. The bullet holes with an "x" in them are a group from another gun. The numbered holes are the .350. It started off good, first shot was left of the group, but most of these guns need a fouling shot or two before they start grouping, then the next four went into a nice round small group. then it started walking up and right as it heated up. He thinks he can cure some of that by bedding some upward pressure at the end of the forearm. We'll see. All in all though, its shooting pretty good. No bad fouling or leading. He did wipe with a moist patch before each shot. Bullshop 292gr pure lead, sized to .34875, 50 gr. fffg Swiss, and a card wad.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/LHand/Satgp.jpg

[skullmount]

[smilie=w:

Ole Woodgoat can sure cast a nice mess O bullets :-D

http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/Brooksbullets_004.jpg

These drop out right at .350"

I cut, pasted and edited this from the e-mail from Woodgoat :)

Well, I'm really impressed with Steve Brooks' talent as a mould
maker. This one works just as good as a mould could possibly work. I put it in the sink and washed the oil off it with hot water and dish detergent, then dried it with alcohol. I put a dab of high temp lube on the guide pins and set it on top of the pot for about 15 minutes, then started casting. I threw back the first ten or so but as the blocks heated up, perfectly filled out bullets would just plop out of the mould as it was opened. It sure would be nice if all bullet moulds were as good as this
one. Here's something else I like about Steve's moulds...... I took
the last ten bullets cast and sat down with my powder scale and weighed all
ten:
278.4
278.2
278.4
278.2
278.3
278.4
278.4
278.2
278.2
278.4
Now that might not be worth a tinkers' damn on the target, but it sure as
hell aint gonna hurt! Try that with almost any other mould and you'll
see variations of 2 or 3 grains. I think it has alot to do with how well the mould closes up.

[Bullshop]

Venting my friend venting. A mold that vents freely will fill consistantly. Some of the best custom molds are also some of the best vented molds.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[skullmount]

........cut and edit from an e-mail from Woodgoat,
.... I cut out all the bullchit that he went thru, you guys get the good news! ;D

.........................I'm cussin pretty bad right about now and wondering about the bedding, so I look around in the tool box and find a piece of hard thin cardboard and cut a piece about 5" long and fold it in three layers, take the stock off and lay that cardboard in the barrel channel right at the end of the forearm so there was plenty of upward pressure on the barrel. Re attach the barrel and action and load er back up with 50 gr. Swiss ffg. Five shots later, I'm looking at the top group and thinking I should have bedded it with forearm pressure to start with. At this point, I had ten bullets left so I set in to shooting the bottom group as fast as I could load and fire. There's four bullets in that big hole in the middle and the egg shaped hole on the lower right has two in it. I was not wiping with these ten but I did wipe every shot for the top group. Firing ten rapid shots without wiping will show any unfaithful tendencies, and I like to do that once I find a good shooting combination just to see if its going to hold up. The first six shots are the one's on the left, then the 7th and 8th shots jumped low and right, 9 and 10 were climbing from there, but they did'nt stray too far and the barrel was good and hot and loading kinda crusty at that point, so I was'nt too surprised.........edit.................. Bear in mind that these two groups are only 15 of 60 shots today, and most of the other groups probably averaged about 3" But the forearm pressure sure seemed to be the trick.....
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/targetSaturday.jpg
[/quote]

[skullmount]

Custom Thimble
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/rod_001.jpg
Custom ramrod
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/rod_002.jpg

Larry has updated me regularly, and has also been working on the bedding....

[Rattus58]

What method of attachment?

[skullmount]

What method of attachment?


threads

[Rattus58]

Hmmmmm pretty neato.... I had to tig weld my 91.

Aloha.. Tom :cool:

[skullmount]

More info from Larry.....

I've shot it with about four or five different bedding jobs, but I think its shooting about as good as I can get one to shoot. The action is bedded all the way up to the back of the recoil lug, and there is a bunch of upwards pressure at the front end of the forearm. Seems like all these Whites like that. This group was yesterday at 100yds. The SBrooks 275gr bullet.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/LHand/wednesdaygrps001.jpg

The "cold clean barrel" shot isnt far enough out of the group to be a problem for hunting, but if you want to shoot a little biddy group, it'd help to fire a fouling shot or two.

Since this one seems to shoot better with ffg Swiss than fffg, and just on a whim, I shot this group with some 1.5fg Swiss. Worked pretty good.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/LHand/wednesdaygrps002.jpg

As has been the case all along, the fffg doesnt produce the best accuracy. I was running out of bullets, so this one is a four shot group
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/LHand/wednesdaygrps003.jpg

With the last four bullets I went back to the ffg load just to confirm that the first group wasnt a fluke. It held up nicely.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f89/LHand/wednesdaygrps004.jpg

[MaxJon]

I guess I can't go back and correct my finger slip on the title....

Should be ML Dreamin



A couple more.....

On action.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/3actionbl.jpg

Custom plug/nipple.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/4carlsbl.jpg

Skullmount,
I just stumbled across your project looks interesting, don't you have to thread the barrel to the action?? I have a single shot target action which has no locking lugs in it just an open thread because it was designed to use a barrel adaptor and recoil plate like the savage line of rifles i think? So you have certainly got me thinkin of an inline (.45 tho). Nice big Stainless barrel,(fast twist for conicals) 209 primer breechplug screwed into my action! Ahhhh! I can see it now when the smoke clears!!!
Any advice, or tips?
BB03

[skullmount]

bb033,

Yes the barrel was threaded and screwed into the action.
The CVA 209 plug would be something to look at, they are inexpensive, and are not metric threads ! ( # on package is AC1678A )

Are you familar with the White muzzleloader system ? All of the White calibers are fast twist and use a slip fit bullet .

Lately I have been playing around with my White Bison .410 with a 1" bull barrel....shooting bullets that weigh 400 grains or more.

[MaxJon]

bb033,

Yes the barrel was threaded and screwed into the action.
The CVA 209 plug would be something to look at, they are inexpensive, and are not metric threads ! ( # on package is AC1678A )

Are you familar with the White muzzleloader system ? All of the White calibers are fast twist and use a slip fit bullet .

Lately I have been playing around with my White Bison .410 with a 1" bull barrel....shooting bullets that weigh 400 grains or more.

Thanks for the info on the plug and White system skullmount will check that out!
I have quite a bit to learn about the front stuffers, they sure do look like fun tho!
I like the sound of the .410!! Gotta love that BULLBARREL!!! I know if i build a .45 it will wear one!

[MaxJon]

bb033,

Yes the barrel was threaded and screwed into the action.
The CVA 209 plug would be something to look at, they are inexpensive, and are not metric threads ! ( # on package is AC1678A )

Are you familar with the White muzzleloader system ? All of the White calibers are fast twist and use a slip fit bullet .

Lately I have been playing around with my White Bison .410 with a 1" bull barrel....shooting bullets that weigh 400 grains or more.

Just did a google on the White system, very interesting, i'm well and truly conviced cast bullets swell up upon firing. Totally different to sizing my .308" military rifle bullets to .3105" Found that breech plug on ebay too, along with others. The white system states you should have a one piece plug/nipple for inlines? Not sure on that? Either way mate you have been a great help! I will need to confirm some threads of my action against the breech plug/s and fire up the CNC lathe at work!! Care to show some pics of the BULLBARREL .410???
Thanks again,
BB03:castmine::castmine::castmine:

[mooman76]

T/C made a one piece nipple breech plug assy in their Scouts they used to make. They no longer have the breech plugs either but last week had some on ebay.

[skullmount]

Just did a google on the White system, very interesting, i'm well and truly conviced cast bullets swell up upon firing. Totally different to sizing my .308" military rifle bullets to .3105" Found that breech plug on ebay too, along with others. The white system states you should have a one piece plug/nipple for inlines? Not sure on that? Either way mate you have been a great help! I will need to confirm some threads of my action against the breech plug/s and fire up the CNC lathe at work!! Care to show some pics of the BULLBARREL .410???
Thanks again,
BB03:castmine::castmine::castmine:

Yes the bullets do "swell" ....if Tom (rattus) was around he would write obturate
;-)

Most of the bullets used in the White rifles are sized to slip into the barrel with very little on no resistance from the barrel as it is slid into place. A squib load is fired before loading the first bullet so that the residue from the fouling "holds" the bullet in place................I have dug some bullets from my sand pile behind the target, that had the lands & grooves in them after firing.

I will work on a pic.

[skullmount]

Here is a pic looking at the muzzle.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN02771.jpg

….and a pic of the action, less the guts and trigger……
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0276.jpg

[MaxJon]

Here is a pic looking at the muzzle.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN02771.jpg

….and a pic of the action, less the guts and trigger……
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0276.jpg

THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT!! I LOVE IT!!
Thanks Skullmount thats just beautiful!! Might have to track one of those White rilfes down here down under.
Thanks again i have learnt so much from you!!
BB03:cbpour::cbpour:

[skullmount]

THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT!! I LOVE IT!!
Thanks Skullmount thats just beautiful!! Might have to track one of those White rilfes down here down under.
Thanks again i have learnt so much from you!!
BB03:cbpour::cbpour:

Check out the White site when you can spend a bit of time....quite a few gems in Doc's writings !

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/

[MaxJon]

Check out the White site when you can spend a bit of time....quite a few gems in Doc's writings !

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/
Hi Skullmount! can you tell me where you got your .41 SS bullbarrel from? What brand is it? Thanks!!
BB03:cbpour::cbpour:

[skullmount]

Hi Skullmount! can you tell me where you got your .41 SS bullbarrel from? What brand is it? Thanks!!
BB03:cbpour::cbpour:

It came right from Doc, the gun that is...not sure who made barrels for White at the time the Bison was in production.........

[MaxJon]

I guess I can't go back and correct my finger slip on the title....

Should be ML Dreamin



A couple more.....

On action.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/3actionbl.jpg

Custom plug/nipple.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/4carlsbl.jpg

Hi skullmount, What is the thread of your breech plug? I have measured my action and thread. The action is 34.5 outside dia. and the internal thread is 1.125" dia X 11 tpi. Not sure of thread form 55 or 60deg just yet. I am pretty sure most breech plugs would fit inside the 1.125" dia thread with sufficient material and strength for a .45 inline?? Anymore advice appreciated!!
BB03:castmine::drinks:

[skullmount]

Hi skullmount, What is the thread of your breech plug? I have measured my action and thread. The action is 34.5 outside dia. and the internal thread is 1.125" dia X 11 tpi. Not sure of thread form 55 or 60deg just yet. I am pretty sure most breech plugs would fit inside the 1.125" dia thread with sufficient material and strength for a .45 inline?? Anymore advice appreciated!!
BB03:castmine::drinks:


Sorry for the delay....they are 5/8 - 18

[MaxJon]

Sorry for the delay....they are 5/8 - 18

No probs about late reply! I just ordered the Lyman Black powder manual 2nd Edition, so maybe that will be helpful!! I think you are on the right track with your breech plug being a 2 piece. I like the idea of being able to change nipples when needed.
BB03

[skullmount]

Just playing around.
Normally the Super91 takes a #11 cap. Wanted to try a 209 primer. Started with a CVA plug.
I cut this plug down in the spring, the first striker I made did not work. This one does. It is pressed onto the #11 striker.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/410bison_002.jpg