Another #358429 question.

[336A]

Ok I have another question regarding this bullet, sorry for all of the questions. I have only been reloading for the .38 SPL for a little over a year now, and I'm trying to learn as much about it as possible. The other day I was reading the excellent .38/44 article written by Brian Pearce. On one of the pages he listed .38 SPL +P loads that are in the 20,000 PSI range. The load that really raised my eyebrow was a +P load of 5.5gr of Unique for the #358429. Up until I read this article I've never seen or heard mention of such a load with this bullet. I'm not saying he is wrong but I think that is a little steep, and would like to get your folks opinion on that load. I just don't take load data mentioned at face value ever, I always cross reference it as much as I can. Which is the reason for this question.

Also I wondering what is the average velocity I should expect to get out of a 4" barrel with the #358429 and 5gr of Unique. The reason I ask is I have no chrongraph so I'm a bit curious. I've seen where some folks have stated to have achieved around 920 FPS with 5.0gr of Unique. Is that about right?

[Bret4207]

What we used to do with the 38 Special was load it into 357 Mag Lite territory with Unique, 2400, Red Dot, etc. These loads would be considered "foolish" in today litigious world. Mr. Pearce's load has probably been reviewed and considered safe. Obviously you should work up to that area and stop if anything appears amiss in your particular gun.

[9.3X62AL]

Current Alliant data shows 4.3 grains of Unique as the top standard pressure loading with 158 grain lead boolits in 38 Special. The +P recipe calls for 4.5 grains. Most #358429 moulds cast a little heavier than 158 grains--mine is a "light" variant, falling out at 163 grains in WW alloy.

5.5 grains of Unique might be a bit warm for some 38 Specials. If I recall the Handloader article you mention, Pearce was using heavy-frame 38 Specials for his work. These are very different revolvers than the Colt Police Positive Special--Detective Special--or early series S&W Chief Specials. I won't use +P loads in my Officer's Model Target, and wouldn't run them in pre-1956 S&W K-frame 38's. The closest I've come to Pearce's data was 5.0 grains of Unique under Lyman #358477 (150 grain SWC), and these ran about 900 FPS from a 4" Model 64.

My thoughts--with the 357 Magnum in wide distribution, the need to run 38 Specials at 1930's HV levels no longer exists. Murphy's Law gets no plea bargains, and just sure as hell one of those loads would find its way into a light-frame 38 and bend something.

[336A]

Thank you for the help gentleman.

[357 hunter]

I have used 5 gr unique behind a 180 in the 357 mag, I think that load would be a bit hot for avg 38 revolver.

[StrawHat]

If it is the same article I remember, Pearce was working up 38 Special loads to duplicate the loads for the S&W 38/44. The original 357. He was shooting S&W 38/44s, Colt SAAs, and other heavy framed guns.

I don't believe he intended anyone to try them in their M15, Detective Special or Speed Six.

[RSOJim]

My model 10-5 smith is loaded right now with 158 grain round nose bullets over 6 grains of unique. This chronied out at 1050 fps. This is my bed side gun. I know round nose bullets are not the in thing to actually stop someone. I talked with Massod Ayoob last year and told him I wanted a bullet to completely penetrate if need be. His only comment was " interesting ". I have shoot this load for about 2 years in a variety of later model K frames. As a matter of fact this is my target load for my model 19 six inch at 50 yards. I hope I am not sounding foolish, but this load and bullet works for me. Your milliage may vary as they say. thanks Jim

[9.3X62AL]

Not foolish, just not needed with the 357 Magnums in the gun safe. The later-model K-frame 38 Specials are fairly stout platforms.

[EDK]

For the last 20 some years, I've ignored my 357s. My loading data for 45 ACP and 44 Special/Magnum came from current magazine articles and then web sites.

After all that time, I purchased Original Size VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS and then looked at my aged reloading manuals....spiral bound LYMANS! When I couldn't find data for TITEGROUP, I did some more looking and was amazed that all the loads had been reduced so much. The current 357 loads for UNIQUE are less than what was suggested for 38 Special 'way back when. I was using 7.0 of UNIQUE with either 358156 or 357446 in 357 brass in Old Model Ruger 357 Black Hawks or S&W 27/28s and 1894C Marlins. You won't do that now!

:cbpour::redneck:

[fecmech]

From looking at the current Lyman cast bullet handbook I don't see 5.5 grs of Unique being that far out of line for a +P .38 special load. Lyman shows 5.0 of Unique and 358429 at 860 fps out of a 4" pressure barrel and 16700 cup as max standard pressure. If you look at the data for the 158 gr RN and the 158 SWC both max out at 5.1 grs of Unique for standard pressure loads (16400 and 16100 cup) and go to 5.4 for their +P ratings and end up at 18000 cup. I would bet any "K" frame Smith built in the last 40 years would have little trouble with those loads. My standard .38 load is (per Lyman manual) 4.2 Bullseye with a 158 grn RN and 16200 cup that clocks right at 900 fps out of my 6" K-38. The gun to date has shot somewhere north of 15k of these rounds and is still tight as a tick.