PID question

[3jimbo3]

I am trying to build my own PID. No offense to the guys on here that build and sell them on here, but I like building things, and having the union background I have, this is a must do for me. So I have researched on here and read some articles and I'm on my way. Now I'm to the point of my PID itself. I have located a couple on line and was wondering if one would work. The model number is TA4 SSR, it reads dual display w/2 alarms. The band is MYPIN. It is suppose to accept the k type thermocouples. Do any of you guys use this one or which model do you use? I have everything I need except the PID, so I'm close to completing my project.

Thanks guys

Jim

[kencha]

After having been burned by a cheap, not-as-advertised ebay PID from china, I will personally stick with getting them through Auber. Yeah, it originally comes from china too, but will be as advertised.

That being said, the Mypin TA4 should work fine.

[el34]

I use a Mypin, same model. A guy that used to be here built kits and fully assembled controllers for sale and he used Mypin. Many folks here bought his product.

Many folks here will be glad to help you and if you'd like feel free to PM me and I'll try to answer any detailed questions. That model has two alarm outputs that you can use to light up indicators, notifying you of conditions and you get to choose those conditions. For example I used one to light a green light indicating the pot temp is within 15 deg (programmable) of my setpoint.

[3jimbo3]

After having been burned by a cheap, not-as-advertised ebay PID from china, I will personally stick with getting them through Auber. Yeah, it originally comes from china too, but will be as advertised.

That being said, the Mypin TA4 should work fine.



Will the Auber last longer than the Mypin? I am having trouble finding an Auber, I really don't want to use eBay for this build. I have been using an electronics store I found on line.

[el34]

After having been burned by a cheap, not-as-advertised ebay PID from china ....

What controller was that?

[3jimbo3]

I use a Mypin, same model. A guy that used to be here built kits and fully assembled controllers for sale and he used Mypin. Many folks here bought his product.

Many folks here will be glad to help you and if you'd like feel free to PM me and I'll try to answer any detailed questions. That model has two alarm outputs that you can use to light up indicators, notifying you of conditions and you get to choose those conditions. For example I used one to light a green light indicating the pot temp is within 15 deg (programmable) of my setpoint.


Ok thanks, I'm going to order one within the next day or so and get it put together. Also do I need the 40 amp ssr or will a 25 work, I found several of these in an old cabinet at work. They tossed them away, I kept them out of our landfill.

[el34]

25A is plenty for most of us. What pot are you going to use it with? Or better- what is the AC current requirement (amps) of the pot? An SSR rated for twice what you actually need is way into the safe zone.

Another thought- check the trashed SSRs and see what their input control voltage range is. The Mypin controller output signal is 24VDC. Most SSRs have inputs spec'ed for 3 to 32V input but it's wise to confirm.

[bangerjim]

Well, the ones I sell in my company are $675.00 and are 1/4 DIN, not those tiny micro 1/16 DIN ones that are hard to see and program.

banger

[Mike W1]

Haven't had any trouble seeing mine, it's not like it's in the next room.


Well, the ones I sell in my company are $675.00 and are 1/4 DIN, not those tiny micro 1/16 DIN ones that are hard to see and program.

banger

[kencha]

Will the Auber last longer than the Mypin? I am having trouble finding an Auber, I really don't want to use eBay for this build. I have been using an electronics store I found on line.

Not necessarily. _IF_ you get a good Mypin and not some crazy cheap knock-off, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

A lot of over-rated knock-off SSRs on ebay too, though. If it is stamped 25A and is being shipped direct from china, I'd give it at least a 100% safety factor. Maybe 1000%.

The reason I like Auber is because they've been around a while and are involved in quite a few areas (brewing beer and coffee, sous vide, kilns, etc, etc.). My first purchase from them was quite a few years ago when I built a small heat-treat kiln.

Sorry. I assume too many things... Auber is http://auberins.com.

[3jimbo3]

I found a Mypin on Newegg and a better price than Ebay. I have bought several items from them and they have all worked quiet well, although with those items I knew what I was dealing with, this is kinda uncharted waters for me. I just wanted to give it a try, my junk shelf is filled with projects I "just wanted to try" lol.

[el34]

Don't forget, with a higher rated SSR, make sure your internal wiring can handle the current requirements. OB

A higher rating doesn't mean more current will be flowing, it just means the SSR is capable of handling it. The wiring needs to be sized based on the actual expected current used by whatever's being controlled.

A household extension cord is 18ga and is rated for 13 amps, well above what our pots need.

[el34]

... this is kinda uncharted waters for me.

If you haven't found out yet, you should know what the model name is telling you. There are 3 letters, like SNR or SSR or RNR or SRR. You have to be careful, the term SSR means two entirely different things. Sometimes it means Solid State Relay, or it can mean a Mypin controller with three outputs, two of them being 'S' and the third being an 'R'.

S= a 24v output intended to control anything that wants 24v to turn it on. An SSR is what we hook it to.
R= internal relay contacts, meaning the controller's output is a set of low amp open or closed contacts.
N= no output

A typical Mypin controller might be TA-4 SNR. The TA-4 is the physical size.

The first letter tells you what the main output is, electrically.
The second letter tells you what alarm #2 is, electrically.
The third letter tells you what alarm #1 is, electrically.

Therefore a type SNR gives you-
S- 24vdc output for the main control (to control an SSR or whatever)
N- no output for alarm #2
R- low amp relay contacts that close when alarm #1 is triggered.

You can define what constitutes an alarm, such as overtemp, undertemp, a combination of both, above or below a specific temp (ex- above 800deg), and a few other things. About all we'd do with them, if anything, is turn on lights to indicate whatever we set it up for. Other uses are only limited by the imagination.

[TreeKiller]

I have had good luck with the N2006P PID. It is easier to set the temp than the MiPan that i have. I think that something went wrong with the MiPan. It is set at 725F and I can not change it.

[3jimbo3]

If you haven't found out yet, you should know what the model name is telling you. There are 3 letters, like SNR or SSR or RNR or SRR. You have to be careful, the term SSR means two entirely different things. Sometimes it means Solid State Relay, or it can mean a Mypin controller with three outputs, two of them being 'S' and the third being an 'R'.

S= a 24v output intended to control anything that wants 24v to turn it on. An SSR is what we hook it to.
R= internal relay contacts, meaning the controller's output is a set of low amp open or closed contacts.
N= no output

A typical Mypin controller might be TA-4 SNR. The TA-4 is the physical size.

The first letter tells you what the main output is, electrically.
The second letter tells you what alarm #2 is, electrically.
The third letter tells you what alarm #1 is, electrically.

Therefore a type SNR gives you-
24vdc output for the main control (to control an SSR or whatever)
No output for alarm #2
Low amp relay contacts that close when alarm #1 is triggered.

You can define what constitutes an alarm, such as overtemp, undertemp, a combination of both, above or below a specific temp (ex- above 800deg), and a few other things. About all we'd do with them, if anything, is turn on lights to indicate whatever we set it up for. Other uses are only limited by the imagination.

So I need to make sure I get the one that is ssr? I have seen a lot of the snr's and I was wondering the difference

[el34]

So I need to make sure I get the one that is ssr? I have seen a lot of the snr's and I was wondering the difference

I think the only important thing for you is to get any model with an S as the first letter. SSR, SNR, like that. Not Rxx. The first letter S means you can control a solid state relay with it, the next two letters are describing the programmable alarms but I'll guess you're not planning to connect any lights or buzzers or sirens to the alarms.

[leadman]

Be wary of the 25A SSRs on E-bay that come from China. I have had at least 4 of them that either did not work out of the box or failed in a short. Go with the 40A, I have had no problems with them and have several PIDs in use for about 1 year.

[el34]

Well, the ones I sell in my company are $675.00 and are 1/4 DIN, not those tiny micro 1/16 DIN ones that are hard to see and program.

banger
How about putting those up for sale in the Sellin'n'Swappin' section? You know, for all of us that can't see our piddly ones. :mrgreen:

[Cmm_3940]

Be wary of the 25A SSRs on E-bay that come from China. I have had at least 4 of them that either did not work out of the box or failed in a short. Go with the 40A, I have had no problems with them and have several PIDs in use for about 1 year.

I went with the 40A SSR even though I'll never need 40A under the theory that if there was a QC issue, the 40A would have more wiggle room for fault tolerance than the 25A at the actual amperages I need. Its only a couple bucks difference. I haven't had a problem yet.

[Handloader109]

The MyPin Ta4 and a 25 amp SSR relay along with a probe and some 18 G wire and and old metal box works well for me. 25 amps is about double what the Lee pots draw, no need whatsoever to go to a 40 amp. all of these items are made in China, and I bought from eBay, just stay away from the China sellers. make sure they ship from US. Much easier to get refund if not delivered or working.
Best $50 I've spent on this hobby.

[Jim_P]

I just got one off eBay for cheap with a 25A Fotek SSR (made in Taiwan - well, not Chinese Mainland I guess). The PID itself is a Sestos. Has both relay and SSR output, came with a K Thermocoupler and the SSR for $38.00 shipped. Got here in less than 10 days (with tracking and the USPS had it in NY for the last 3). It's burning in on the bench, but the temp is 100% accurate, programming was a bit of a pain in the thumb holding the button for so long. Nice mounting (behind the panel) holder. Easy to read - albeit "Chinegrish" - instructions. SSR output is stable to .025 volts (12.6756 - 12.9682 VDC, yes I have instruments that measure that precise).

The K coupler is threaded for permanent mount and has a 1 meter (3') metal braid shielded cable. It's going to get married to my Lee pot here very soon.

Sellers name is gooasis. I've bought a lot of things out of Hong Kong via eBay and never gotten burned. Infact some of them are more reliable and responsive than US sellers. I've actually gotten pictures of items from sellers before they shipped - one even called and left a message with the tracking number! I've bought expensive stereo equipment from there. Don't dismiss them just because they are in China. I've been ripped off by more Americans than Chinese! Just because the seller is in the US does not mean it's easier or safer than another country.

[3jimbo3]

Be wary of the 25A SSRs on E-bay that come from China. I have had at least 4 of them that either did not work out of the box or failed in a short. Go with the 40A, I have had no problems with them and have several PIDs in use for about 1 year.

Ok thank you for that info.

[el34]

el34,
Yes, you are correct. A 40a SSR is not going to be drawing more current to run a Lee pot or a small appliance. However, I was reminding the OP that without the proper internal wiring, he could not just hook up a device drawing 35a and expect to be good to go. Most would probably have the unit hooked up to a 15a breaker, in which case, if the breaker does it's job correctly, it should trip before the internal wiring could fry. If hooked to a 50a breaker, on the other hand, if the wiring inside the unit cannot handle 35a, watch out.

OB

Copy that!
No doubt my comment was something you already knew. I've run across folks that quite innocently haven't had a reason or opportunity to pick up various particulars about electronic/electric subjects and without invitation I jump in with the goal of squishing a potential misconception. Can't remember that far back but there might have been a time when I could have thought a 40 amp anything would pump 40 amps, whatever the heck an amp is.

[3jimbo3]

I went ahead and bought a 40 amp ssr to use in my pid. I'm ready to start construction on it now that all the parts are here. Another question I have is, can I use #12 thnn household wire for the electrical connections? Or do I need to buy specific wire for this project?

[kencha]

No specific wire needed EXCEPT for the thermocouple, if that's what you're using.

12ga THHN would be fine, if not overkill, for most of the connections.

Thermocouple wiring can be an issue, but most TCs come with long enough leads that it probably won't be a concern.

[bangerjim]

Your house is wired with 12 gauge wire. That 40A SSR is just an overkill but will handle up to 40A, which you will NEVER use.

Remember: I=E/R

At 120 vac:
700W is approx 7A
1500W is approx 15A
4500W is approx 45A!!!!!!

What would ever be controlling that draws 45A!?!?!?!?!?!


Use standard stranded 12g wire. Use a 12g line cord also. That way you will stay in the realm of 20A......your household standard outlet breaker for most houses.


You need K t/c extension wire for that part of the system if the wire that comes attached to the t/c is not long enough for you. Standard Cu wire will create inaccuracies (non-isothermic junctions). And you do not need anymore of those with that cheap equipment.

banger

[Cmm_3940]

Insulated 12g copper wire, any sort will do, is adequate overkill so as to never worry about overload of the wiring on the power supply side of the relay (the 15A outlet will melt first :) ). Stranded will be easier to work with than solid, but romex is OK if that's what you have. Just think standard household outlet wire. On the PID side of the relay, much smaller wire can be used, as there is very little current draw. The thinner wire will be needed to fit under the terminal screws of the PID. I chopped the wiring harness off an old burt-out PC power supply and used that for the PID side of mine.

[3jimbo3]

Alright, I have all my parts in now and I'm starting construction on my pid this afternoon. After I go visit mamaw of course, so you guys hang out a while tonight just in case i need help wiring this thing.

[Walter Laich]

here is a webpage I wrote up about mine
used the Auber box on their site but it's expensive and small inside
I had to put the SSR on the outside, back of the box
.
http://home.comcast.net/~walterlaich/pid.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~walterlaich/pid.htm)

[3jimbo3]

here is a webpage I wrote up about mine
used the Auber box on their site but it's expensive and small inside
I had to put the SSR on the outside, back of the box
.
http://home.comcast.net/~walterlaich/pid.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~walterlaich/pid.htm)

That's a really nice setup you have there. I have mine almost finished, after el34 held my hand thru the wiring process, he was very helpful with this by the way. The only thing left to do on it is to add a plug for the thermocouple and a grommet for the power cord. I have plugged it in and switched it on and everything seems to be working fine. As soon as it's finished I will post some pics.

Thanks everyone for help and opinions, that's what makes it so great here. Everyone is very helpful!

[el34]

Sounds great jimbo!! Way to go!

[3jimbo3]

Ok, I got everything connected and fired up my new pid. It all works except the readout for the actual temp. It just reads (-000). The set temp readout is set for 705 degrees and the pot seems to be cycling on and off. Any ideas?

[3jimbo3]

OK sorry guys, I jumped the gun a little bit there. I reversed the TC connections on the back of the pid and it works just fine. I think it's reading on Celsius instead of Fahrenheit, but that can be changed. As soon as I figure out how to do that.

[el34]

Cool! Do you have the instructions for setting degF?

[3jimbo3]

Cool! Do you have the instructions for setting degF?

I don't think I do. I have the ones you sent me, but I haven't had a chance to look at them real good yet.

[3jimbo3]

Ok, my PID is now working! Thanks to you guys, especially el34 for talking me thru the wiring and setup. It's pretty amazing how these things work and how much better the end product is just by adding one to your casting setup. It should be a law that if you cast you have to have one of these. I just got mine trained tonight and I'm looking forward to using this for a long time. It's sort of like cruise control for your pot. I'm going to build another one for my sizer in the near future.

[Beagle333]

It really changes the game, doesn't it!? You should hook one up to a lubesizer heater too. No more heating it up til it leaks and letting it cool back down til it won't fill the grooves.... it's smooth sailing for the whole time.

[el34]

ok, my pid is now working!


hey!!! Where"s the pics???

[3jimbo3]

I'm working on it, got the pic on the computer, now just having problems getting them uploaded to the forum. I will get them as soon as I can.

[echo154]

RAT$#*t…..the mypin I received is a TA4 RNR….I take it from the above posting that I can't use it with an 25a SSR? Kinda PMO as I ordered it as a package with a 25 a SSR and sink!

[HATCH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NpcMycHDvk


You don't have to use a SSR.
I have use a T92 style 30 amp relay to switch the power on my Pro 420 pot and it worked just fine.


Also you can use it without modification but you would have to switch the control voltage thru the PID.

[echo154]

How would I change the voltage setting?

[echo154]

Not sure Hatch indicated the voltage could be changed to use an ssr?

[echo154]

Thanks OB it was a package deal off of amazon gonna contact them and send it back.

[jsizemore]

RAT$#*t…..the mypin I received is a TA4 RNR….I take it from the above posting that I can't use it with an 25a SSR? Kinda PMO as I ordered it as a package with a 25 a SSR and sink!

I have a relay output PID like you and got one of these SSR's to handle the current to the pot. It uses the AC output from the PID to control it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Temperature-Controller-Solid-State-Relay-25A-HPR-25AA-w-Base-/281370356932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4182faecc4

The one I got was an IDEC reclaimed from an unused control panel. I paid about $8 shipped. Works great.

[edctexas]

You really do NOT want to use a relay with a PID. The PID uses very short bursts of power to the heater element to maintain the desired temp. The controller cycles the power on and off many many times in our application. This will wear out a relay in a few days or less of operation. The SSR will give a minimum burst of about 1 cycle of AC (0.166 secs). A relay can't even deliver that short of burst. The SSR essentially has an infinite number of on-off cycles. It is more sensitive to heat than to the number of on-offs. The relay has a very finite number of on-off cycles. So stick with the SSRs. The other reason to go with the larger SSR is that it expects more heat so when used at lower current levels, the lifetime should be longer. Also, the heating resistance when warm limits the current to 7 amps for most pots. BUT, the resistance is much lower when cold so the first few seconds of heat might have a much larger current. Not long enough to trip a breaker, but when semiconductors failure time are in microseconds not seconds.

Ed C