Wait until the media lights into this!

[fastfire]

I just herd on the radio where an instructor at a college in Idaho shot himself in the foot with his own pistol.

Just started allowing CCW on Idaho college campuses in July.

Take that pistol out of his pocket so he can play with what he usually does.....?

[searcher4851]

Yes, the media loves to jump on incidents like this rare occurrence. It's "news" and will get their usual biased opinion interjected.

Ever wonder why you don't read about the other accidents that take place on a much more regular basis by supposedly trained professionals?

To that subject I submit the following:

"Police pursuits kill an average of one person a day in the United States, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Approximately 1 in 3 pursuits leads to a collision, injuring thousands a year, the NHTSA statistics showed." (excerpted from Medill Reports)

Could it possibly be you don't hear about that because the media doesn't hate cars?

[dakotashooter2]

I wonder what the statistic is for people who cut themselves with knives?................................

[Love Life]

I believe that anybody who has a witnessed negligent discharge (ND) that does not result in bodily harm needs to be fined no less than $3,000.00, payable in 3 payments over the course of the year.

I believe anybody that has a ND that results in bodily harm needs to stand trial for assault with a deadly weapon. If it kills the person, then the ND'er needs to stand trial for manslaughter.

If only property damage, the ND'er needs to be held financially responsible by the establishment and still fined $3,000.00 to paid in the payments throughout the year.

[Ickisrulz]

I believe that anybody who has a witnessed negligent discharge (ND) that does not result in bodily harm needs to be fined no less than $3,000.00, payable in 3 payments over the course of the year.

I believe anybody that has a ND that results in bodily harm needs to stand trial for assault with a deadly weapon. If it kills the person, then the ND'er needs to stand trial for manslaughter.

If only property damage, the ND'er needs to be held financially responsible by the establishment and still fined $3,000.00 to paid in the payments throughout the year.

And accidents with guns should be singled out why? They're just tools, right? Is everyone heavily fined for doing something stupid that endangers others?

[Love Life]

People should be fined for doing something that endangers others. Consequences and repercussions for one's actions.

People are fined for drinking and driving...which is dangerous. Why shouldn't a person be fined for being a breather of the mouth with a firearm and endangering lives?

Firearms are tools, toys, etc. That is why we are fining the person and not the gun.

[bushboy]

"I believe that anybody who has a witnessed negligent discharge (ND) that does not result in bodily harm needs to be fined no less than $3,000.00, payable in 3 payments over the course of the year."

So if someone gets into a car accident with no injuries and is found negligent (cited), they should automatically be fine $3,000?

"I believe anybody that has a ND that results in bodily harm needs to stand trial for assault with a deadly weapon."

So again anyone negligent in a car accident causing bodily harm is automatically charged with assault with a deadly weapon? What about the professor who shot himself in the foot in the OP's post #1? He should be charged with assault with a deadly weapon against himself?

"If it kills the person, then the ND'er needs to stand trial for manslaughter."


"People should be fined for doing something that endangers others. Consequences and repercussions for one's actions. "


That 9 YO girl that accidentally killed her instructor - she should be fined and tried for manslaughter????


Please tell me you forgot the purple font for your statements.

[Mumblypeg]

Love Life, I call them unintentional discharges, negligent or otherwise. If you handle/play with firearms long enough it will happen to you too. The results depends on where it is pointed. Please let us know when it happens to you so we can collect the money.... I believe in the upmost safety... but ... stuff does happen under the right conditions.

[Love Life]

I did not forget the purple font. Refute them on solid grounds and we can have us a good old time. Trying to appeal to my emotions with the man who shot himself (ND and deserves to be fined) or the girl who killed the instructor (not an ND, just a poor position to be instructing from, not within parameters) will only result in me quoting mid 90's rap lyrics.

To answer your questions concerning car accidents (even though I posted about guns and poor gun skills), yes to the manslaughter and yes to the fine.

Just because you get hurt or scared due to your negligence does not absolve you of it. Why, I can remember when a tank was dropped on a person and the person who decided to use the weak chain felt he should not be reduced because "My Marine died"...fail.

Consequences and repercussions.

[Love Life]

Love Life, I call them unintentional discharges, negligent or otherwise. If you handle/play with firearms long enough it will happen to you too. The results depends on where it is pointed. Please let us know when it happens to you so we can collect the money.... I believe in the upmost safety... but ... stuff does happen under the right conditions.

That's what people say, but checking if a firearm is loaded, keeping finger off the trigger, keeping weapon on safe, not pointing weapons at people, and treating every firearm as if it were loaded keeps me safe.

Now, should a legitimate malfunction (mechanical failure of the gun and safety systems fail) then the person is good to go. Not much you can do there, but hope weapon safety rules 1 and 2 keep you safe...

People say it will happen to all who handle guns. I say bull dookie.

[searcher4851]

To Love Life:

I find your statements to be quite unsettling. Would you really resort to "quoting mid 90's rap lyrics"?

I could understand if this were "THE PIT", but here in "OUR TOWN"? Please say it ain't so. :-)

[Love Life]

Yes, I would resort to quoting mid 90's rap lyrics. Only the ones appropriate for a family forum though...

[sparky45]

ALL that mid 90's rap stuff wasn't lyrics, it was/is a testimonial.:mrgreen:

[Love Life]

Agreed. "Rap" today is falsehoods spewed by wannabes. Holy thread drift batman!!

[Ickisrulz]

People should be fined for doing something that endangers others. Consequences and repercussions for one's actions.

People are fined for drinking and driving...which is dangerous. Why shouldn't a person be fined for being a breather of the mouth with a firearm and endangering lives?

Firearms are tools, toys, etc. That is why we are fining the person and not the gun.

Drinking and driving is illegal. Most accidents are not illegal or caused by illegal activities. It would be a wonderful world if we could get rid of accidents. But, people make mistakes and any amount of regulation isn't going to change that. Guns are dangerous and so are chainsaws, grills and about a million other things. I was just wondering why you were singling out firearms. Who would these fines go to, the government who would waste the money or use it against us?

[Col4570]

Ugh Rap,Awfull chanting.

[Springfield]

For what it is worth, that Professor can already be fined for illegally discharging a firearm within City Limits. That should cover it, no need for more firearms laws.

[Love Life]

Drinking and driving is illegal. Most accidents are not illegal or caused by illegal activities. It would be a wonderful world if we could get rid of accidents. But, people make mistakes and any amount of regulation isn't going to change that. Guns are dangerous and so are chainsaws, grills and about a million other things. I was just wondering why you were singling out firearms. Who would these fines go to, the government who would waste the money or use it against us?

I singled out firearms because the OP was about a retard who shot himself.

Do not make this into something it isn't...a made up crusade against our 2nd amendment rights.

It's about holding people accountable for endangering the lives of others through their own negligence and/or incompetence. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Had the OP been about somebody's kid falling in a washer machine and drowning, then I would be ranting and raving that the parents should stand trial.

To summarize: I singled out firearms because the op was about a firearm incident involving a negligent discharge.

[montana_charlie]

People are fined for drinking and driving...which is dangerous.
People are not fined for drinking and driving.
People are fined for driving 'after drinking enough to become intoxicated', which is determined by physical tests or breath analysis.
As long as 'the legal limit' is not exceeded, driving and drinking is totally legal as long as the driver can control his car..

It's also not against the law to have an automobile accident.
Disobeying one or more traffic laws ... and thereby having or causing an accident IS reason for law enforcement to get involved.

Similarly, it is not illegal to fire a gun accidently ... whether anyone sees it happen, or not.

CM

[Ickisrulz]

I singled out firearms because the OP was about a retard who shot himself.

Do not make this into something it isn't...a made up crusade against our 2nd amendment rights.

It's about holding people accountable for endangering the lives of others through their own negligence and/or incompetence. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Had the OP been about somebody's kid falling in a washer machine and drowning, then I would be ranting and raving that the parents should stand trial.

To summarize: I singled out firearms because the op was about a firearm incident involving a negligent discharge.

So, all accidents should be prosecuted as crimes in your scary world?

[Love Life]

So, all accidents should be prosecuted as crimes in your scary world?

Yes. There are only 2 choices. You are either found innocent and walk, or you are found guilty and sentenced to death by watching Barney the Purple Dinosaur re-runs.

Keep it coming.

[Wayne Smith]

Hmm, talked to a couple who work for Remington recently (Chris' wedding reception, in fact). Told me of an incident where six people handled a rifle in the factory - the seventh opened the action to discover that the shell from the trial shot was still in the chamber. Their protocol, as is ours, is that each person handling the firearm opens the action and inspects the chamber. Familiarity breeds contempt. How often have each of us done the same thing?

[dtknowles]

Some people are more likely to be accident prone than others. It is a situational awareness issue or maybe a paranoia thing. I prefer to be around people who are paying attention to what is going on around them and are aware of the hazards of their environment. The story about people in a gun factory handing around a gun and nobody checking the chamber, is just puzzling. I probably would have check it twice just out of habit or protocol, first check is when someone hands me a firearm, check to see if it is loaded and if I closed the action which depends on what we are doing with the gun, second check before I hand it to someone else.

If you cause or contribute to an accident you are liable for damages (if there are any) and if you were negligent you might be a criminal, there should be consequences.

Tim

[bushboy]

I did not forget the purple font. Refute them on solid grounds and we can have us a good old time. Trying to appeal to my emotions with the man who shot himself (ND and deserves to be fined) or the girl who killed the instructor (not an ND, just a poor position to be instructing from, not within parameters) will only result in me quoting mid 90's rap lyrics.

To answer your questions concerning car accidents (even though I posted about guns and poor gun skills), yes to the manslaughter and yes to the fine.

Just because you get hurt or scared due to your negligence does not absolve you of it. Why, I can remember when a tank was dropped on a person and the person who decided to use the weak chain felt he should not be reduced because "My Marine died"...fail.

Consequences and repercussions.

I apologize for not stating that I was thinking more of falling down a slippery slope when it comes to applying more laws to people for what you perceive to be their negligence whether it's gun related or anything else. Don't really care about your emotions - just trying to understand your reasoning.

[bushboy]

I singled out firearms because the OP was about a retard who shot himself.

Do not make this into something it isn't...a made up crusade against our 2nd amendment rights.

It's about holding people accountable for endangering the lives of others through their own negligence and/or incompetence. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Had the OP been about somebody's kid falling in a washer machine and drowning, then I would be ranting and raving that the parents should stand trial.

To summarize: I singled out firearms because the op was about a firearm incident involving a negligent discharge.


Yes. There are only 2 choices. You are either found innocent and walk, or you are found guilty and sentenced to death by watching Barney the Purple Dinosaur re-runs.

Keep it coming.


I guess these statements pretty much answer the rest of the questions I had. Thanks

[Love Life]

Yes Sir, and I understand. I'm not asking for gun laws. I'm asking for harsh fines for poor firearms handling that could lead to injury, death, and or property damage.

To me, fining for poor firearms handling doesn't even play into gun control. It's more like "Not a smart person" control.

I hope that explains it better. Having looked down the barrels of guns wielded by unsafe people, and having been around when ND's happened, I really wished that something more could have bee done than just a stern talking to.

Carrying firearms for whatever reason you want is a right, but there are some responsibilities that come along with exercising that right.

[Bzcraig]

LL - good on ya! No purple font, no personal attacks, calmly stating and when necessary re-stating your opinion and working consistently toward your point. Maybe this discussion was so civilized because it wasn't in the pit! BTW, I agree with you. Often negligence, lack of attention, impatience, distraction and the like are characterized as an 'accident' but it was not an accident regardless if it's guns, cars, darts or chainsaws. Congratulations to everyone in this thread!

[monadnock#5]

Is the $3K payable before or after the ambulance chaser destroys the miscreants future financial security in civil court?

[Love Life]

It is payable as decided by the fining official. Woe is life.

[Ben]

For what it is worth, that Professor can already be fined for illegally discharging a firearm within City Limits. That should cover it, no need for more firearms laws.

I'm in full agreement.

Ben

[2wheelDuke]

Yes, the media loves to jump on incidents like this rare occurrence. It's "news" and will get their usual biased opinion interjected.

Ever wonder why you don't read about the other accidents that take place on a much more regular basis by supposedly trained professionals?

To that subject I submit the following:

"Police pursuits kill an average of one person a day in the United States, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Approximately 1 in 3 pursuits leads to a collision, injuring thousands a year, the NHTSA statistics showed." (excerpted from Medill Reports)

Could it possibly be you don't hear about that because the media doesn't hate cars?

The media does hate police though, so I'm surprised that we don't hear more on the topic.

[montana_charlie]

Often negligence, lack of attention, impatience, distraction and the like are characterized as an 'accident' but it was not an accident regardless if it's guns, cars, darts or chainsaws.
You're walking down the sidewalk when you see a container of gasoline stored in someone's garage.
Will you call the authorities to file a report of negligence?

Picture a man mowing his front lawn with a mower that has no bagger.
That machine might throw a deadly missile at a passerby, such as yourself.
Are you going to report him for endangerment?

How far will you pursue your crusade for absolute protection in all respects, for all people?

CM

[mjwcaster]

I'm not sure what the answer is, but as a fireaarms instructor who has had a round shot into our classroom by a drunken neighbor (one of only 2 houses around for a mile or more) I do wish something else could be done. As one of our students put it ' Freaking ironic that we are here in a firearms safety class and we get shot'.

This individual was drunk, firing at a house and out building (where the class was) lied to police about who was there, who fired the gun, where he was shooting at (a bucket set in the middle of the road, pointed in our direction).
And all he got was a warning.

Supposedly his 84yr old father came over the next day and took his guns away.

I am the last to push for more laws for anything, or even more government involvement, but this left me shaking my head.

First officer on the scene wanted to take him in, but was overridden by his superiors.

Bullet ricocheted on the frozen ground, through the building wall and right over my seated partners head. Ten minute before one of us would have been standing right there. Bullet was not going fast, but still could have caused damage, at least to an eye (insert obligatory christmas story joke).

As an instructor hearing stories about other 'instructors' shooting themselves or their students really bothers me, what are they teaching?

[montana_charlie]

I believe that anybody who has a witnessed negligent discharge (ND) that does not result in bodily harm needs to be fined no less than $3,000.00, payable in 3 payments over the course of the year.
I was watching a program on Foxnews just thirty minutes ago.
The title is 13 Hours at Benghazi, and it was Brett Baer getting first hand accounts of the incident from three ex-military 'contractors' who were there to protect the CIA people at The Annex.

At the end of the interview they were telling about boarding the plane to Tripoli.
One of them was clearing his pistol and fired a round into the cabin floor.

His name wasn't mentioned, so I don't suppose we can levy his $3000 fine ... if anybody is tough enough to try it with men of that caliber.

http://gretawire.foxnewsinsider.com/2014/09/05/bret-baier-hosts-fox-news-reporting-13-hours-in-benghazi-tonight-at-10pmet-tune-in/

CM

[Love Life]

I was watching a program on Foxnews just thirty minutes ago.
The title is 13 Hours at Benghazi, and it was Brett Baer getting first hand accounts of the incident from three ex-military 'contractors' who were there to protect the CIA people at The Annex.

At the end of the interview they were telling about boarding the plane to Tripoli.
One of them was clearing his pistol and fired a round into the cabin floor.

His name wasn't mentioned, so I don't suppose we can levy his $3000 fine ... if anybody is tough enough to try it with men of that caliber.

http://gretawire.foxnewsinsider.com/2014/09/05/bret-baier-hosts-fox-news-reporting-13-hours-in-benghazi-tonight-at-10pmet-tune-in/

CM

Grasping at straws is very unbecoming...especially for you.

Lets not compare mopeds to rocketships here.

You are in the good ol' USA, you have a ND with your firearm in the store/movies/restaurant, etc, you get fined. Pretty simple.

I have a piece of paper that says "Look at me, I was in the stuff" and I've never had an ND so your story about the news story with the combat aspect is totally lost on me.

4 little words:
Treat, never, keep, keep.

[montana_charlie]

I have a piece of paper that says "Look at me, I was in the stuff" and I've never had an ND so your story about the news story with the combat aspect is totally lost on me.
The point is that people with firearm familiarity which far exceeds that of the average Joe are subject to accidental discharges.

I too have one of those 'papers', and I HAVE had accidental discharges ... two of them.
But then, I'm close to seventy years old. So, I have had a lot more opportunities to mess up ... and a lot more time NOT under the supervision of a military superior tasked with governing my weapons handling habits.

You mess with horses long enough and you WILL wind up a cripple.
You mess with guns long enough and you WILL fire an unintentional shot.

CM

[DLCTEX]

I must disagree, shooting himself in the foot will be a much stronger deterrent than a fine. One size fits all laws are one of my pet peeves.

[dtknowles]

I must disagree, shooting himself in the foot will be a much stronger deterrent than a fine. One size fits all laws are one of my pet peeves.

A law to specifically address negligent discharge is not needed, current civil court and criminal (if criminal negligence) covers this adequately. The State or Town does not need to get involved or bare the cost of a prosecution and unless negligence was gross and the damage severe, I think they would use prosecutorial discretion and not file charges. If the fine was like a traffic ticket (maybe this could be ok), the discharge would have to have a number of witnesses and probably damage to get the Cop to write the ticket, if you could even get him to go to the scene while the witnesses and accused are still present.

Tim

[Bzcraig]

You're walking down the sidewalk when you see a container of gasoline stored in someone's garage.
Will you call the authorities to file a report of negligence?

Im not sure what this means unless there is a local/state ordinance against storing gas in your garage. But if it's against the law and somehow harms another person, then yes, it would be negligent.

Picture a man mowing his front lawn with a mower that has no bagger.
That machine might throw a deadly missile at a passerby, such as yourself.
Are you going to report him for endangerment?

Assuming he is not doing something stupid (read negligent) like mowing over rocks with a parade going by, I think this is a great example of an accident.

How far will you pursue your crusade for absolute protection in all respects, for all people?

I think 'crusade' is a bit hyperbolous, I never mentioned 'absolute protection' and what I'd hoped to convey is many things like texting & driving, drinking & driving, failing to clear a gun chamber and the like, that cause property damage or personal injury are always preventable 'accidents.'

CM

Craig

[Ickisrulz]

Safety researchers claim that 99% of accidents are preventable. Accidents are caused by either unsafe acts (people) or unsafe conditions (caused or not corrected by people). This leaves 1% of the accidents caused by "acts of God." Following the line of logic that everyone should should be held accountable and punished for their actions (or failure to act), no insurance company would ever pay out and the court systems would be clogged.

[monadnock#5]

http://www.sam-hane.com/sass/cowboyosha.gif

Can anyone spot the six gun and lever rifle in this diagram? I wonder why the artist left those things out of the picture? Days of future past.

[Love Life]

Safety researchers claim that 99% of accidents are preventable. Accidents are caused by either unsafe acts (people) or unsafe conditions (caused or not corrected by people). This leaves 1% of the accidents caused by "acts of God." Following the line of logic that everyone should should be held accountable and punished for their actions (or failure to act), no insurance company would ever pay out and the court systems would be clogged.

Why would an insurance company need to pay out because you got fined for a ND? Keep it in the lines here and stop trying to muddy the waters.

This is about ND with a firearm, and a person being held responsible for the actions.

This is not about having a gas can in your garage while mowing the grass standing on your head.

This is not about a slip and fall.

This is about ND's with a firearm which are 100% preventable. That's it. If you all would like to discuss people being accountable for every little thing they do, then please start a thread on it and stop trying to bring the liberal tactic of muddying waters to the discussion.

All we need now is for someone to say "A fine will hurt the children!!"

However, DTKnowles pretty much summed it up well enough so I don't really have anything further to add after this.

[Ickisrulz]

Why would an insurance company need to pay out because you got fined for a ND? Keep it in the lines here and stop trying to muddy the waters.

This is about ND with a firearm, and a person being held responsible for the actions.

This is not about having a gas can in your garage while mowing the grass standing on your head.

This is not about a slip and fall.

This is about ND's with a firearm which are 100% preventable. That's it. If you all would like to discuss people being accountable for every little thing they do, then please start a thread on it and stop trying to bring the liberal tactic of muddying waters to the discussion.

All we need now is for someone to say "A fine will hurt the children!!"

However, DTKnowles pretty much summed it up well enough so I don't really have anything further to add after this.

If you want to limit it to guns, you have singled them out (or gun owners anyway). So why single out one specific hazard? Because of a pet peeve, ax to grind or that you are so perfect in this area the imperfection of others is intolerable?

[country gent]

In Ohioand most STates the law is alreay there. It basically reads that you are responsible for any bullet you fire untill all energy has been expended. Penatlties are fines up to a year imprisonment loss off hunting privledges and firearms possesion rights. Im willing to bet at some point the girl will be in juvenile court explaining herself. In her case a juvenile court but still there. Very few advertise accidental discharges. I have seen them on ranges several times.

[dtknowles]

Safety researchers claim that 99% of accidents are preventable. Accidents are caused by either unsafe acts (people) or unsafe conditions (caused or not corrected by people). This leaves 1% of the accidents caused by "acts of God." Following the line of logic that everyone should should be held accountable and punished for their actions (or failure to act), no insurance company would ever pay out and the court systems would be clogged.

Insurance companies would still pay out (you can be at fault and have insurance cover the liability, that is actually normal) per the terms of the policy the consequences for the responsible party (if insured) would be increased premiums or cancelled coverage. Court systems being clogged, well, maybe or maybe not, depending on how things go, some places they are already clogged for no good reason. In a proper civil court systems the court cost are covered as part of the suit/settlement/adjudication more capacity should be created as demand grows.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

Insurance companies would still pay out (you can be at fault and have insurance cover the liability, that is actually normal) per the terms of the policy the consequences for the responsible party (if insured) would be increased premiums or cancelled coverage. Court systems being clogged, well, maybe or maybe not, depending on how things go, some places they are already clogged for no good reason. In a proper civil court systems the court cost are covered as part of the suit/settlement/adjudication more capacity should be created as demand grows.

Tim

I was just taking the idea to its ultimate progression. That is, 100% accountability/responsibility in 100% of life.

[Love Life]

If you want to limit it to guns, you have singled them out (or gun owners anyway). So why single out one specific hazard? Because of a pet peeve, ax to grind or that you are so perfect in this area the imperfection of others is intolerable?

Listen closely. I am singled in on firearm ND's because that is what the OP was about.

Not about lawnmowers, gas cans, cow farts, or bald tires.

I choose to address the OP and not wander into la la land IOT to give a point I want to make some kind of weight.

I am not against you (gun owner) or your precious freedoms. The fact that a gun owner is the one likely to have the ND (what I am against) is just the way it is because non-gun owners who do not own or use firearms do not have nd's if they do not own or ever use firearms.

Something so simple yet you are trying to peel back the layers of a non-existent onion.

Keep it on the subject and you'll see how silly your grasping and applying to odd situations is.

The subject of the OP is a ND. I addressed the issue of ND's which is the subject. It is s ingular subject and there for a singular issue with a singular point to address.

Singular, singular, singular.

[Ickisrulz]

Listen closely. I am singled in on firearm ND's because that is what the OP was about.

Not about lawnmowers, gas cans, cow farts, or bald tires.

I choose to address the OP and not wander into la la land IOT to give a point I want to make some kind of weight.

I am not against you (gun owner) or your precious freedoms. The fact that a gun owner is the one likely to have the ND (what I am against) is just the way it is because non-gun owners who do not own or use firearms do not have nd's if they do not own or ever use firearms.

Something so simple yet you are trying to peel back the layers of a non-existent onion.

Keep it on the subject and you'll see how silly your grasping and applying to odd situations is.

The subject of the OP is a ND. I addressed the issue of ND's which is the subject. It is s ingular subject and there for a singular issue with a singular point to address.

Singular, singular, singular.

I thought you were gone from this discussion? You may be approaching it from a single issue, but when you apply what you have said to other situations and accidents it can easily be seen that a fine is not required or the answer to mistakes or accidents. Looking at your expectation for everyone to be perfect when handling firearms (only) and then applying it to every other hazardous situation we deal with on a daily basis it can be seen how unreasonable that kind of thinking can be.

[Love Life]

Stop applying it to other stuff. I'm not applying it to other situations and that was never my intention. I feel bad for you that you have done that and caused yourself undue stress.

It's that simple.

Making a big ol' mountain out of a mole hill here.

Things in life can be very singular. A simple concept yet beyond your grasp...

[Ickisrulz]

You did justify your original course of action by comparing it with drinking and driving. So you have been away from the singular issue yourself. It just goes to show nothing can be looked at by itself. Laws should be fair across the board and not overly harsh because it is someone's pet peeve. Laws should also have a purpose. I doubt fining someone who just shot himself in public would do anything for anyone.

[Love Life]

I prefer sharp cheddar cheese. Not aged too much though.

[Bzcraig]

I think this has run its course........