black powder and 9mm auto how to?

[birddseedd]

Probably not real soon, but at some point i want to start using black powder for my 9mm auto. Iv seen it done with larger calibers such as 45. but how would someone get started doing this as there really isnt any data for it. obviously not having a pressure curve as with smokeless it would in tale much more caution.

anyone out there with any experience with this?

[flyingmonkey35]

Other then the obvious question of WHY

Other then powder is hard to come by.

If you get over the black powder / messy not recommended for autos.

[birddseedd]

powder availability and cost. yea its messy, but nothing a little cleaning wont take care of. as far as smoke goes, iv bought remanufactured ammo that made not much less smoke.

still, would like to speak with someone with some experience loading it, so i have a starting point to work up from.

[birddseedd]

guy on youtube said he just filled the case and let the bullet pack it

[Mitch]

it is on the internet it has to be true

[birddseedd]

why do you think im asking around to find someone with experience? or is it too much for a guy to ask for help?

[Owen49]

I've no practical experience with 9 mm. black powder loads to share. I'd just mark a dowel with the length of space the bullet takes up in the case & fill the case a little bit (0.10") higher than that & try it. Have fun.

[Piedmont]

I don't have experience either but this isn't dangerous in the least. Basically you want 100 percent loading density and some compression. Use a blackpowder lube to keep the fouling soft. Three f will give you more pressure and velocity (over 2f) and the better chance of functioning the pistol. The case capacity is so low that velocities will be very low, too.

When you get around to doing it, post the results.

[Nobade]

I tried BP in my 9mm rifle. Much less than impressive results. It works fine in the 45 ACP, but that 9mm is so small that it doesn't really work. Velocities were maybe 300 fps, and when I tried really compressing the powder it ended up burning like rocket propellant and made a even lower velocity tracer round. Stick to something like the 38 spl, where BP works wonderfully.

-Nobade

[GhostHawk]

Birddseedd your scary. I think it is mostly because you appear to not "think" about what your talking about. I saw it on the internetz and everything on the internetz is true so how do I do this? It is all just a game to you, nothing really important.

Scary scary **** man.

You want to go blow yourself up, fine, have a good time. You want to go blow yourself up and then sue castbullets because we gave you bad advice? Naw, not from me. I am done reading your threads.

[ThaDave]

There is a reason there isn't data on 9mm BP loads and for the same reason there aren't direction on matches for checking fuel levels, because while is can in theory be done it is a bad idea on many levels.

[Tackleberry41]

Pretty sure Birddseedd was posting in the survivalist forums same sort of questions, plenty were things you were likely to end up in the hospital for, like grinding smokeless powders to get different burn rates. Bought a progressive press, no experience, and no load manuals. Ignored any advice given, argued everything else, finally people ignored the posts. Play the game if you like.

[birddseedd]

Birddseedd your scary. I think it is mostly because you appear to not "think" about what your talking about. I saw it on the internetz and everything on the internetz is true so how do I do this? It is all just a game to you, nothing really important.

Scary scary **** man.

You want to go blow yourself up, fine, have a good time. You want to go blow yourself up and then sue castbullets because we gave you bad advice? Naw, not from me. I am done reading your threads.

im not sure how you expect my thoughts to be conveyed over the internet.

what bad advice are you referring to?

[birddseedd]

Birddseedd your scary. I think it is mostly because you appear to not "think" about what your talking about. I saw it on the internetz and everything on the internetz is true so how do I do this? It is all just a game to you, nothing really important.

Scary scary **** man.

You want to go blow yourself up, fine, have a good time. You want to go blow yourself up and then sue castbullets because we gave you bad advice? Naw, not from me. I am done reading your threads.


oh. sue castebullets. didnt read that.

thats silly.

[birddseedd]

I tried BP in my 9mm rifle. Much less than impressive results. It works fine in the 45 ACP, but that 9mm is so small that it doesn't really work. Velocities were maybe 300 fps, and when I tried really compressing the powder it ended up burning like rocket propellant and made a even lower velocity tracer round. Stick to something like the 38 spl, where BP works wonderfully.

-Nobade

Hickhock45 did 45. worked but yea it was real slow. the guy that i saw that did 9mm was able to get 800 fps. but he only got it to register once. not sure if it was his angle, or the smoke, or perhaps that one was the only one fast enough. dunno.

his proccess was to fill the case, let the bullet compress when pushed in. what was your proccess when you did it?

thanks for the help

[owejia]

Have loaded bp in 38 spl and 38 s&w, the 38 s& w cartridges didnot have much ump to them. The 38 spl shoot ok.No air space in the cartridge with black powder, bp needs to be compressed.

[smkummer]

A friend tried BP in a M10 submachinegun in 45 acp. Not enough power to cycle the action in his Mac. In 9mm, I am guessing you would get the performance of the old 38 Colt short that shot a 125 grain bullet at about 700 FPS. There was a reason the first auto pistol cartridges were smokeless, one was that the small case capacity was mostly filled with smokeless powder that had more power then the volume needed with black.

[country gent]

While it can be done safely the 9mm cases capicity is such that it may only hold 10-15 grns of black powder 3 f would be better than 2 f here but I can see alot of stuck bullets and no functioning of the semi autos with out going to light wieght springs. If your bound and determined to try this leave no airspace in the case even some light compression to start, and use a lube that is meant for black powder fouling. Lybe not only is for the bullet in black powder loads but to keep fouling soft and managable. SPG is good, emmerts you can make yourself is good. I see this as an effort in futility. The big black powder rifle rounds burning much more powder were only in the 1200-1400 fps range it was the heavy bullet that did the real work. You have niether with the 9mm round. Alot of the black powder pistol lounds were really pretty anemic compared to todays loadings. 600-800 fps again with soft lead bullets.

[birddseedd]

sounds like my gun might have issues. wonder if i can get a lighter spring for it.

[birddseedd]

If your bound and determined

I don't understand why people always interpret my questions as "bound and determined". I thought there was no stupid questions accept the ones not asked? Bound and determined does not come until after information is gathered. i don't just blindly follow direction. if i don't understand something, I will always ask follow up questions.

I thought this forum was different. at first people seemed to eager to help. but i decide to do one thing someone says they don't do, when they cant give me any real reason why i shouldn't, and its stated that it will work, again, i don't follow people blindly. i gather information and make decisions for myself once i have enough information to do things properly and safely. if people here don't like that, then ill just use a proxy and come back with a different name when i need information i cant readily find searching.

[Mooseman]

People were eager to help you until your attitude showed its ugly head in chat and you basically questioned the integrity and info provided by a lot of the senior members here and that got you banned from chat. You have shown total disregard for safety and your ambiguous questions are getting annoying. I suggest you either start listening to our members here , read more thats already posted on the forum such as stickys, get yourself some reloading manuals , and stop fooling around where the things you are doing can injure or kill innocent bystanders and yourself. If you can't do that , I suggest you find another forum to troll.

[birddseedd]

People were eager to help you until your attitude showed its ugly head in chat and you basically questioned the integrity and info provided by a lot of the senior members here and that got you banned from chat. You have shown total disregard for safety and your ambiguous questions are getting annoying. I suggest you either start listening to our members here , read more thats already posted on the forum such as stickys, get yourself some reloading manuals , and stop fooling around where the things you are doing can injure or kill innocent bystanders and yourself. If you can't do that , I suggest you find another forum to troll.


and this is a perfect example of why i get an attitude. i am getting really freaking tired of people telling me i am going to kill someone. you have no place to say this kind of foolishness. and apparently you weren't paying attention. i did not question anyone's integrity. Someone said something that doesnt make sense to me. so i asked questions about it. asking questions to gain more understanding is not judging someones integrity. to say so is just foolish. and please. tell me what advice i havnt taken? pretty sure iv done pretty much everything everyone has said.

I am really getting sick and tired of being judged by people who have no real clue what is going on simply on the basis of asking follow up questions. especially when those people cant give any real answer or response to my questions.

[birddseedd]

oh, and before i get banned. thank you to those who shared their experience in this. I will give it a shot, but knowing what gun i will be doing it with i do not expect superb results. non the less it does show that it is capable of working. So iv got a starting point. still have much reading and studying to do on black powder before i could feel comfortable trying anything. but it will be fun to learn about anyway. so thank you very much

[Tackleberry41]

Its a funny thing, everything else is the problem, a bad pot, bad mold, bad gun, bad bullets, etc, etc, etc. When we had a car that came in with all sorts of phantom issues, that nobody else could replicate or hear, we always said it was the nut behind the wheel that needed adjusted.

[birddseedd]

bad pot... took forever to heat lead. New one worked perfectly

bad mold... wouldnt drop bullets out of the box. New one did it perfectly out of the box

bad gun... was confirmed by the gunsmith and two other shooters.

bad bullets... i wont use that home made lube again. Didnt work well at all. Been using a different lube since then without issues. Not sure how this is blaming someone else but ok.

[Mooseman]

Well excuse me , But , We do have the right to tell you you are dangerous and what you are doing can harm others. I have been loading and shooting for longer than you have been breathing and I have seen the disasterous results of foolish loading and not paying attention.
Guns blown up, bolts thru peoples heads, bystanders bleeding from shrapnel. It happens , and if you dont understand you are dealing with high pressures and a controlled explosion next to your face then you should get out of reloading and take up knitting. You Do NOT want to follow proven loading data, you want to do everything your own way, and that is Arrogance on your part. Your attitude here and blaming everything and everybody else except yourself is not gonna get you far on this forum , and I can see why you were banned on several others forums...grow up and get a clue. You are putting a black eye on reloading and gun safety in my opinion and it will come back to bite you. You have been warned.

[country gent]

I gave you the issues to be delt with the means to do it and the reasons its going to be a problem. Bound and determined in this instance means if your going ahead even after all the nrgatives and problems outlined here.Black powder is bulky and takes a big case to get enough in to make what is needed to work. Thats why 45 colts, 44-40, 38-40, and other black powder rouds are full sized rounds. Some modern rifle rounds have the same basic capacity as these do now. The 9mm just dosnt have the capacity for a decent charge of black powder. Even the derringers of the time in 32-38 caliber used around 30 grns in the loadings close to double what your charge is going to be and they were considered under powered and anemic in the day. Black powder will only produce velocity to a point a heavier bigger bullet is need to increase power with it. Thats why the work horse of the day 45-70 used 500+ grain bullets. Read up on the old true black powder cartridges research what they were then fill a 9mm case with powder to bullet depth and wieght it see how it compares. Having loaded the old timers both smokeless and black those big old cases suffer with smokeless due to to much airspace in the cases and shine with black. Modern rounds after or around ww2 shine with smokeless correct capacity and suffer with black due to not enough capacity. I tried to help and give advice from what I could., you took one line and made it derogatory.

[waksupi]

and this is a perfect example of why i get an attitude. i am getting really freaking tired of people telling me i am going to kill someone. you have no place to say this kind of foolishness. and apparently you weren't paying attention. i did not question anyone's integrity. Someone said something that doesnt make sense to me. so i asked questions about it. asking questions to gain more understanding is not judging someones integrity. to say so is just foolish. and please. tell me what advice i havnt taken? pretty sure iv done pretty much everything everyone has said.

I am really getting sick and tired of being judged by people who have no real clue what is going on simply on the basis of asking follow up questions. especially when those people cant give any real answer or response to my questions.

I would very very seriously suggest you take words of wisdom from staff members to heart.

[dragon813gt]

And another one. Just replying so I can follow. His threads keep getting better.

[Boogieman]

A 9mm loaded with 3f black would be about ljke an old 38 rimfire short. They were loaded with BP. The biggest danger would be from a stuck bullet. I don't think it would cycle the action ???? having shot both muzzle loaders & autoloaders for over 40 years I wouldn't want to have to clean the gun.

[waksupi]

After looking through his posts, he is as dangerous as the previously banned Cam, if indeed he is not the same person. I would check his ISP, to be sure he isn't out of Ontario Canada.

Ah, I see I am too late. Banned.

Aloha, oh dangerous one.

[MT Chambers]

regardless of op's status...9mm case too small for charges that would reach decent velocity.
Action would not function with low pressure of those BP rounds.
BP would dirty every nook and cranny of the wundernine pistol.
Using BP in many cartridges makes some sense( even modern cals.), but in this case, there are no positives.

[Springfield]

A 9mm is a small case and MAYBE it won't hold enough to cycle the action without a light spring. As for getting dirty, my old Colt 45 acp works fine with fffg BP and a heavier 260 grain bullet(454190). I only get about 750 fps, but the cases seal the chamber pretty good and I get minimal fouling. Not a real high power round but I sure wouldn't want to get shot with it. Why BP in a 45? Because I shoot wild bunch cowboy shoots and it is just more fun, is perfectly safe and makes people think. I won't try BP 9mm with my Browning Hi power, too nice a gun, but maybe with one of my beater 9mm's, just to see how it goes.

[GIJeaux]

I wouldn't waste my time with BP in a 9mm and agree with the good advice given but, I do remember reading an article once where they loaded Cast bullet .380 ACP with BP and shot them in a MAC-11. They shot 3 magazines, (30 rounds each?) full auto, with no malfunctions. While trying to find that article I ran across this Youtube video of a guy shooting his .380 with BP: .380 ACP with BP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5WG_79Pxns)

Al

[M-Tecs]

I have zero interest in loading BP 9mm’s but I wonder how they did it back in the day of the small pinfires and rimfires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinfire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinfire)


http://www.chuckhawks.com/history_rimfire_ammo.htm

The common .22 Short cartridge dates from 1857. It is the oldest cartridge still being loaded today. It was the first American metallic cartridge, introduced in for the first S&W revolver, a pocket pistol developed for personal protection. It was popular during the American Civil War, carried as personal weapons by soldiers on both sides.

The .22 Short is a development of the BB cap using a 29 grain round nose (RN) bullet in a lengthened case (compared to the BB Cap). It was originally powered by 4 grains of fine black powder (about FFFFg).

This gentlemen has some crono info on 41 Colt short with 9 grains of BP

http://home.earthlink.net/~mhclary/BlackPowderCartridges.pdf (http://home.earthlink.net/~mhclary/BlackPowderCartridges.pdf)

Are very own loading 22LR with BP

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?167745-Black-Powder-22-s (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?167745-Black-Powder-22-s)

Claims of 750 FPS with the 32 rimfire using 9 grains BP and 80 grain bullet.

http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/32S&WNo2.htm (http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/32S&WNo2.htm)

Info below copied from second post.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-193271.html (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-193271.html)

Most of my information comes from Frank C. Barnes's valuable reference book, Cartridges of the World. My copy is the Third Edition printed in 1976, but it has a lot of old information from the First Edition from 1966

There were actually several .32 RF cartridges in circulationfor a time:
.32 Extra Short
.32 Short
.32 Long
.32 Long Rifle
.32 Extra Long

The .32 Short RF was arguably the most produced. Introduced under the Smith & Wesson patent of 1860, it was used in the original S&W No. 2 and 1-1/2 tip-up revolvers which became so popular as a sidearm during the War for the Liberation of the Southern Confederacy. It is still loaded and is listed in current catalogs. . . . Original load had an 80-gr.bullet and 9 grains of black powder. Stevens single shot rifles were available in this caliber as late as 1936. While no velocity is given in the text, we can make some fairly educated guesses based upon those .32 centerfire cartridges which immediately succeded the RF number.

The .32 S&W (CF) was introduced in later production of the No. 1-1/2 revolver in 1878, replacing the .32 RF. Production did not fully switch over to smokeless powder until about 1940. It is logical to assume it was loaded to approximately the same level as the old BP rounds. The factoryload is listed as an 85 gr. bullet at 705 fps.

The British .320 revolver cartridge was introduced in 1870 for the Webley revolver. It was the inspiration for the later .32 Short Colt,and was manufactured in the US but discontinued in the late 1920s. Barnes wrote that it is (WAS, more likely) still made in Europe and England. Factory load:80 gr. bullet at 550 fps.

The .32 Short Colt (.650" case length) was introducedin 1875, and late production ammunition is said to run an 82 gr. bullet at 790fps. It is noted that the Colt revolvers of that period were far more robust than the little tip-up S&W designs of 15 years before.

Given the above information, a pretty good estimate of the.32 Short Rimfire cartridge specifications would be an 80-gr. bullet at about 650 to 700 fps from a 5" revolver barrel.

[Springfield]

M-Tecs; none of those guns were a self loaders.

[M-Tecs]

M-Tecs; none of those guns were a self loaders.

Like you I have seen it done with the Wild Bunch shooters in 45 acp. Unlike you I have not done it. Maybe someday. Short of stuck bullets I am trying to understand why BP would be dangerous in a 9mm.

Some 9mm, 45 acp & 380 semi autos shooting BP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuDJMd8bUDI 9mm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzQ4uKvE7c 45 acp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsCgLBhtbM8 9mm Beretta 92F with FTF issues

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gEJF1fMJ1g&list=PL5WW8HF3UXj_b1OU11otVtxA7ZNc18d8D 45 acp


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5WG_79Pxns Beretta 84f 380 taken from GIJeaux post above

[fishhawk]

Only thing I can think of with fouling build up (not sure how fast it would build up) the gun may not fully seat a round in the chamber and may fire out of battery.

[Lead pot]

I shoot or have shot black powder in most of my rifles and hand guns with very good results and some not so well.
As far as black powder not cycling a self feeding hand gun I have not found that to happen when I shot some in my .45 gold cup and .38 S&W master. The .45 shooting the hard ball bullets functioned very well with out and stove pipes. The .38 Master shooting full wad cutters functioned very well and the 25 yard accuracy was great.
I load .22 long rifle factory new primed cases with 4.5 grains of 3F OE powder and those loads don't take a back seat compared to the Wolf Match .22 ammo.
Yes the velocity is just slightly lower, between 950 and slightly under 1000 fps depending how much I compress the powder.
A lot of comments are made from posters that have not shot or even loaded blk powder in a hand gun cartridge or shot a hand gun with a full blk load. If they ever did they would soon find out that the recoil is substantial compared to a smokeless load.
Most of the self loaders came about after smokeless came around and it took favor because the way it functions a self loader, but this does not mean that black powder wont function a self loader.
Even the modern day revolvers are different than the older once before smokeless. The tolerances between the cylinder and forcing cone is looser so the wheel don't bind up from the fouling. You can stick a bullet with a squib load but it is very unlikely that you will stick one that had blk over the primer.
My auto loaders will not fire if the slide is not in full battery.

LP.

[2TM101]

I know this is a ten year old "necrothread" but it still comes up in searches. So here is information from 2023

I bought a 6" KKM Precision stainless barrel for my work issued Glock 17 so I could fire my own cast lead bullets. I tried it with max loads of BP and it will function whreas the standard factory barrel is too short and it dooes not have time to build up enough power to cycle. I did this one time only just to see if it worked (well 50 times really but I made one box). What survivalists often overlook is that powder and bullets are easily made it will be primers that stop you. And actualy I do make percussion caps that work just great.

9mm Auto is a bad idea, however, 9mm BP in a revolver is not. I have two colt 1873 clones that use 9mm and I load it like its 38 short colt because it pretty much is, both smokeless and BP. I wanted the smaller case for reduced loads and I have an unlimited supply of used 9mm brass - and no other type. so I do everything I can with it.

[barnetmill]

Interesting thread. I have no interest myself in loading 9x19 with BP. It is interesting how some of the posters responded. I would probably as suggested use it only if there was no other choice in cartridges that were originally loaded with BP such as the .38 spl, .44 spl, and .45 colt.
Probably also work well in manually operated shotguns.

[Carrier]

If you do try it I suggest you pull the grips off your auto, spray the snot out of everything with Ballistol, wipe excess off and reassemble. You want all petroleum oil off of it. Will make the clean up much easier cause it will be dirty. You need a bullet that has a lube groove, like mentioned use SPG or beeswax with olive oil and fill groove as much as possible. Find where bullet seats and fill with FFF powder so you have a 1/16 or so compression and seat bullet. Good luck.
You might find that your auto will be a single shot or it may cycle a few times.

[jednorris]

If you succeed in loading and shooting Black Powder, I would TOTALLY disassemble the gun for cleaning afterwards.

[barnetmill]

Youtube look up: Black Powder 9mm Everything Black Powder.

He got a blow back 9x19mm AR to work. He was using jacketed fmj and the accuracy disappears, but gun function for 67 times until he ran out of black powder loads. When he cleaned it later, the fouling was very hard and he thought that if he used bullets lubed with proper blackpowder lubricant the fouling would not have been as difficult to remove.

320548

[Swineherd]

Shallow thinkers don't often have any real understanding of the way things work. Instead, they regurgitate and mime established authorities while taking indignant offense to unconventional or novel thinking.

[Shanghai Jack]

Shallow thinkers don't often have any real understanding of the way things work. Instead, they regurgitate and mime established authorities while taking indignant offense to unconventional or novel thinking.

Or even thinking from ages past. I got told to leave a range because I was going to blow up my antique schuetzen rifle. Range officer was sure that breech seating would result in the gun blowing up. Conventional wisdom is seldom either.

[Swineherd]

Or even thinking from ages past. I got told to leave a range because I was going to blow up my antique schuetzen rifle. Range officer was sure that breech seating would result in the gun blowing up. Conventional wisdom is seldom either.

Reading instructions is good. Understanding them is better.

[2TM101]

I've loaded Black Powder 9mm - but used it in a Uberti Cattleman II, a 9mm revolver. The case capacity is within 1/3 of a grain of .38 short colt so you can use that data. As such it works fine, because the cases eject with a push rod and not by the non-existant rim.

Starline finally got actual .38 short colt brass in so now I mostly use that. Only reason I did 9mm is because I have an unlimited supply of brass, and the Uberti ejects cases with a pushrod so you don't need moon clips. Also I have a wet tumbler now, as dry tumblers can't really handle cases after they have been used with BP.

If I am paying a dime for the primer, the less than a penny I save using my own powder instead of smokeless makes this really not worth it.

[Swineherd]

I just find it amusing how many know-it-alls will jump at the opportunity to criticize someone for asking any question they consider unorthodox.

It's more important to them to bludgeon the questioner with their supposed expertise than to give an informed answer. Probably because they can't really form one.

And then this guy gets banned! LOL

Like a mob of vicious lemmings.

[1eyedjack]

Here's your sign.

[barnetmill]

I just find it amusing how many know-it-alls will jump at the opportunity to criticize someone for asking any question they consider unorthodox.

It's more important to them to bludgeon the questioner with their supposed expertise than to give an informed answer. Probably because they can't really form one.

And then this guy gets banned! LOL

Like a mob of vicious lemmings.

I had a moderator once get angry over the topic of loading bullet backwards. In the classic book: 'Hunter' by Hunter when they ran out of FMJ bullets for african big game they turned the bullets backward for example and assume the guns were the big double express rifles. Some people will turn hollow based wad cutters backwards in .38's for example.

[Swineherd]

I had a moderator once get angry over the topic of loading bullet backwards. In the classic book: 'Hunter' by Hunter when they ran out of FMJ bullets for african big game they turned the bullets backward for example and assume the guns were the big double express rifles. Some people will turn hollow based wad cutters backwards in .38's for example.

Exactly.

In this very thread, guy asks question and is immediately asked "Why would you want to do that?" The implication being "That's a stupid idea"
As if in order to get a straight answer he needs to justify his motivations to a self appointed internet expert.

OP is then swamped with accusations that the whole idea is dangerously mad, which it obviously isn't, and was ultimately banned.

Perhaps there's a reason for his banishment beyond failing to properly prostrate himself before the egos of the cool-kid-club on this forum, but this thread isn't very flattering to the site.

[Dutchman]

I'd think that most of us in the upper atmosphere of life have been handloading and bullet casting for over 50 years. We learned either from an experienced mentor, as I did, or from a book, like the excellent Lyman loading manuals or the much older Phil Sharpe book on handloading. We learned to re-produce the kinds of results that we wanted. All such success comes from repetition of established protocol.

That being said, there also needs to be stretching of what we think are limits in the various methodology attached to handloading and bullet casting. Without experimentation you stagnate free thought. A good example might be those here who paint their bullets. For the life of me I just can't get into it. Don't have an interest in it and don't want to hear anybody else so I avoid that particular forum. Don't know exactly why I have a mental block about it but I do. The first, many years ago, thought was that sometime in the future a single, lone bullet is found somewhere it shouldn't have been, or *in* something it shouldn't have been in. Very easy to match paint chemistry in a forensics laboratory to what they found in your shop. You see? Criminology was the first thought on the subject!! (the brain can be weird at times:-).

Now talk about manufacturing small arms primers. What a fascinating field that has grown into with all manner of mindsets and experimentation. Who'da thunk? While I'm sure I'll never indulge myself in that field I do enjoy following the practice and the growth of that area. It has a valued worth for us all in the event of......

Not all thinking outside the box is successful. Much fails. But some give usable results. We will never know unless we, or somebody else, tries.

Who's the genius who thought up using spent .22RF to make bullet jackets? One of the most wonderful aspects of being human is our ability to innovate and invent.

Dutch

[MrWolf]

Exactly.

In this very thread, guy asks question and is immediately asked "Why would you want to do that?" The implication being "That's a stupid idea"
As if in order to get a straight answer he needs to justify his motivations to a self appointed internet expert.

OP is then swamped with accusations that the whole idea is dangerously mad, which it obviously isn't, and was ultimately banned.

Perhaps there's a reason for his banishment beyond failing to properly prostrate himself before the egos of the cool-kid-club on this forum, but this thread isn't very flattering to the site.

The earlier posts mention instances of "Chat" issues so I think there was more to it than what was in this thread.

[2TM101]

Who's the genius who thought up using spent .22RF to make bullet jackets? One of the most wonderful aspects of being human is our ability to innovate and invent. Dutch

I would really want to know who first got the idea that PAINTING bullets would work out.

But on topic - 9mm BP is basically the original .38 short colt. Used that way its fine. But semiauto and BP were never meant to coexist, and historially, they didn't. (though it was close)

[gloob]

Didn't like how this thread started, at all. Respect for how it endured, after.

I'll be sure to load with black powder about the time I start reloading my own primers. Probably using a Lee Loader and a hammer. Results would probably be a lot better in 38 special or 45ACP.

[barnetmill]

I would really want to know who first got the idea that PAINTING bullets would work out.

But on topic - 9mm BP is basically the original .38 short colt. Used that way its fine. But semiauto and BP were never meant to coexist, and historially, they didn't. (though it was close)

But if black powder and a 9x19 is all you have, you do what you gotta do.
And yes since a .38 spl was originally designed around black powder, it would work a lot better with BP.

[Brimstone]

If Elmer Keith had been a modern guy on a forum....let that sink in. It's why I warn members not to stray away from the Homemade BP thread and especially not outside the ML forum when asking anything about making it as they'll be met with open hostility.

[Scrounge]

Have loaded bp in 38 spl and 38 s&w, the 38 s& w cartridges didnot have much ump to them. The 38 spl shoot ok.No air space in the cartridge with black powder, bp needs to be compressed.

.38 S&W never did have very much upmf to them. And they were originally a black powder cartridge. An old Lyman Ideal reloading handbook, #38, from 1951, had load data for the 38 S&W. Not black powder data, but Unique, and Bullseye, powders I was using when I started reloading for my own .38 S&W revolver, an Iver Johnson Break-top. 2-3 grains of Bullseye worked well for the shot capsules I usually loaded, and 2 grains was supposed to give about 580fps with a 158gr bullet, 3 grains gave about 800 fps with the same bullet. At least according to the copy of that handbook I have now. My ex got that pistol over 40 years ago, and lost it. Left it in her car, and it was stolen. Not by me, either. :( There was not a great deal of recoil with those loads, IIRC. I can see a 9mm auto not doing all that well functioning with BP.

And that cartridge was why the US Army switched to the .45 Auto when they came out, as the .38 S&W was too anemic for the little Moro tribesmen in the Philippines a few years before.

[Swineherd]

If Elmer Keith had been a modern guy on a forum....let that sink in. It's why I warn members not to stray away from the Homemade BP thread and especially not outside the ML forum when asking anything about making it as they'll be met with open hostility.

Those who dance appear insane to those who cannot hear the music.

[barnetmill]

.38 S&W never did have very much upmf to them. And they were originally a black powder cartridge. An old Lyman Ideal reloading handbook, #38, from 1951, had load data for the 38 S&W. Not black powder data, but Unique, and Bullseye, powders I was using when I started reloading for my own .38 S&W revolver, an Iver Johnson Break-top. 2-3 grains of Bullseye worked well for the shot capsules I usually loaded, and 2 grains was supposed to give about 580fps with a 158gr bullet, 3 grains gave about 800 fps with the same bullet. At least according to the copy of that handbook I have now. My ex got that pistol over 40 years ago, and lost it. Left it in her car, and it was stolen. Not by me, either. :( There was not a great deal of recoil with those loads, IIRC. I can see a 9mm auto not doing all that well functioning with BP.

And that cartridge was why the US Army switched to the .45 Auto when they came out, as the .38 S&W was too anemic for the little Moro tribesmen in the Philippines a few years before.
I believe it was the .38 long colt that was being used.
But fact is even without the improvised wooden body armor that was being used by the moro juramentados, people that are really hopped up on rage and perhaps drugs are hard to stop with a pistol for a lot reasons. A third hand story I was told that while they stumbled a bit after being hit with a .30-40 krag, they would still attack.
I heard this story second hand from about 55 years ago of Philippine troops attacking a muslim town. The troops used the town's gas pump to burn down the town. Out of the smoke came a man with just a large kris. Two man both emptied their M16s at the charging muslim. I have no idea if they hit him. But he did not stop and the first man raised his rifle to fend off the downward blow and was struck on the head and killed. The one that told the story ran away.

[delftshooter]

they were making 44 special ammuniton loaded with black powder and 246 grain FMJ projectiles in world war 1.

Anyway, due to the needs of the auto cartridge, youll NEED to use heavy charges of 777 powder subsititutes. Or youll want to be using correct granulation in 3f.

cleaning that semi auto is gonna be a bitch becuase youll want to clean inside the mechanism in the handle too, and not some quick wipe down. but a for real take it all apart take down clean

[firefly1957]

IF you are thinking of making your own black powder you may look at two things for the higher pressures usable by the 9mm .
A) you can lower the sulfur content and raise the charcoal content for more energy . This is how they made the old blasting powder that was considered to strong for period guns and it was as low as 2% sulfur by weight.
B) You may look at forming a pellet of the powder right in the case before priming and seating the bullet ,It would need a hollow center and the size of that hollow would be the way to control amount of powder . As someone said on page one this was used in Europe for some cartridges .