Dilemma

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I find myself on the horns of a dilemma and as you know there is nothing worse or more dangerous than a horny dilemma. My problem is this, I have two hi-walls chambered for the 38-55 cartridge. One rifle is a Winchester and the other a Uberti. The barrel grove diameter on the Winchester measures 380. I have not measured the Uberti but I think it must be the same or close to 380 since I have the same problem with both rifles. If I chamber a round using bullets sized to 380 they will not chamber, if I use Winchester brass. I can load rounds using Starline brass [with a little thumb pressure] if I seat the bullet down to the crimping grove. The Starline brass is a few thousands thinner than the Winchester. I have tried using a outside case neck trimming tool with only moderate success. I thought of thinning the brass on the inside of the neck using a reamer. Buckshot didn't think much of my idea. Shooters using this round with no trouble must have rifles with smaller groves, say 375. I wonder if black powder shooters who use those long 330 grain bullets have a lot of free bore in their rifles? Installing a new barrel is out of the question. Any ideas?

[Lonegun1894]

Do the .380" loads shoot well, aside from the chambering issue? If so, would it be possible to ream the chamber itself by .002" or so? I'd hate to open it up enough to cause you issues, but thinking maybe a couple thousandths of an inch might allow you to chamber easily. Now before you go doing that, do me a favor and coat a loaded round with a black sharpie and chamber it, and then remove it from the chamber and see where the shiny spots are. That should tell you where the resistance in your chamber is. You may need to ream it slightly, or it may just be a matter of it needs the bullets seated slightly deeper. Or I could just be completely off base here, in which case, I'm sure else will know a solution.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Lonegun, I failed to mention that Buckshot did what you just suggested this past Wednesday. He drove some forty cal bullets into the chamber up to the rifling. The front of the Winchester chamber is four thousands smaller than the Uberti. Neither will chamber the Winchester brass and even the Starline is difficult in the Winchester rifle. I don't know why anyone would create such a bore & chamber combination. I don't know if there is some kind of reamer that would open part of the chamber or not. Another friend has a 38-55 chamber reamer but I think it will probably be the same has what I have. now. I am going to try to go to his place next week and see if I can measure the front of his reamer just to make sure. I thought there was supposed to be a standard for chamber dimensions but I guess not. I have no idea how someone could enlarge just the front of the chamber and keep some resemblance of a chamber, do you?

[oneokie]

There are reamers available to open the chambers up in the case mouth area to 0.400". My 5 digit rifle will chamber a cartridge that measures 0.397" at the mouth easily.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

The problem I have is the size of the case mouth when loaded with bullets sized to .380. If I use Winchester brass they are over .400 in diameter. I will check out the reamers you mentioned. Thanks guys.

[DCP]

I believe this is a common problem with the 38-55 that's why Starline makes 2 deferent 38-5538-55 Brass (2.080") (Large Rifle primer)


https://www.starlinebrass.com/images/cases/_cache/50_-1_38_55.png (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-55-Brass-2080/)
38-55 Win, 38-55 Winchester, 38-55 Ballard
2.076 - 2.082 O.A.L.
The .38-55 is the standard length of 2.080" which is the same as Winchester case. Case mouth has thinner walls (.0072" average thickness at mouth) than the Winchester case allowing for use of the wide variety of bullet diameters, especially in tight chamber/large bore situations. Headstamp reads *-* .38-55.



Box Size: 250 ($118.50) • 500 ($223.50) • 1000 ($423.50)
Status: Out of Stock/No Backorders at this time
Click button below for notification of availability. NOTIFY ME (https://www.starlinebrass.com/my-account/email_instock.cfm/notifyMe/#20)












38-55 Long Brass (2.125) (Large Rifle primer) (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-55-Long-Brass-2125/)


https://www.starlinebrass.com/images/cases/_cache/50_-1_38-55_2.png (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-55-Long-Brass-2125/)
38-55 Win, 38-55 Winchester, 38-55 (2.125), 38-55 Ballard
2.122 - 2.130 O.A.L.
This is a .38-55 case with the original overall length of 2.125" for use in .38-55's that are suited for longer cases (most firearms will accept this length). Wall thickness at the mouth averages .0072" which allows for use of a wider variety of bullet diameters, especially in tight chamber/large bore situations. Headstamp reads *-2.125-*-38-55



Box Size: 250 ($137.00) • 500 ($261.50) • 1000 ($492.00)
Status: Out of Stock/No Backorders at this time
Click button below for notification of availability. NOTIFY ME (https://www.starlinebrass.com/my-account/email_instock.cfm/notifyMe/#21)

[obssd1958]

I have loaded for a rifle with a similar problem. I trimmed the brass a little at a time until it would chamber. A little bit of a "crimp" helped too.
Unfortunately, the bore was too messed up for any of my efforts to prove worthwhile.

[BrassMagnet]

You could try other boolits. I have moulds that range in size from .375 to greater than .380.

[Springfield]

I had the same problem with my 38-55 Buffalo Classic until I reamed the chamber. Now it works with real 38-55 brass just fine, just like my Winchester. Before this I had to use shorter fireformed 30-30 brass. It seems to be a common problem with newer 38-55 rifles.

[Col4570]

You might try lapping the chamber with a used case on a spindle.That is if the length will allow it past the Breach block.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I have tried smaller bullets such as one I have by RCBS. It is a 375 gas check mold. While it can be easily loaded in my rifles, the accuracy leaves something to be desired. The barrel on my Winchester was made by Atkinson & Marquardt in Prescott, Ar. It is beautiful and the gun smith who turned it down said it was the hardest barrel he ever worked on but the barrel has a grove of 380 so a smaller sized bullet is not a viable option. I do have over a hundred 375 Winchester cases and while they are shorter than the 38-55 brass, they are much thicker than even the Winchester 38-55 brass. Have you ever seen those maps of a complex and there is an X with the words, you are here. Well if my situation with the 38-55 were on a map it would say, you can't get there from here. As the old saying goes, misery loves company, I am glad I am not the only one having problems with the 38-55. It seems to me that the bullet makers and reloading gear makers want to treat the situation as though everyone was loading jacketed bullets in 375 caliber and if you cast then it is 375 also no matter what the 38 case may be. I think from what you gentlemen have told me, my only out is to get the chamber opened in the front. Thanks again.

[TXGunNut]

That's the scary thing about the 38-55, it's almost like there's no standard measurements for the cartridge and guns. I was hoping I could use the same boolit I use for my .375 Win but no such luck.

[smokeywolf]

GOPHER SLAYER,
If I'm understanding your situation correctly, it sounds like there's a chamber reamer in your future.

smokeywolf

[montana_charlie]

I thought there was supposed to be a standard for chamber dimensions but I guess not.
This is on the SAAMI site. but it's the 'modern' (short) 38-55 case.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/38-55%20Winchester.pdf

[Springfield]

I rented the reamer, easy 10 minute job.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Springfield, where did you rent the reamer and what did they charge to rent it?

[marvelshooter]

I rented this one: http://www.4-dproducts.com/displayitem.php?rowid=441&tname=rental the price is on the page. With the chamber reamed and using Starline 2.125 brass I can chamber a case loaded with a .385 dia. boolit. Wideners has the brass in stock even though it does not come up if you Google it.

[Pepe Ray]

Charlie touched on it.

It's all SAAMI'sfault.

Here we're dealing with a cartridge and chambering that was a popular target and hunting combination many decades before
SAAMI was created. Why did it work then and not now?

They used smaller diameter boolets made of SOFT alloy and bumped them with Black Powder. Works every time.

Late '60's early '70's Winchester decided to drop the 38-55. The Lyman 45th Ed.Reloading Handbook had a special, separate section in the far back for obsolete and semi-obsolete cartridges. That 's where the 38-55 was to be buried. Then in the ( IIRC 1976 or '77) Winchester catalog the .375 Big Bore was born. Some one in engineering decided that they could resurect the 38-55 as long as they were making .375 BB's. This is when they quit the original long case and went to the current "short" version for 38-55. Of course SAAMI had to have the last say as to the dimensions and to heck with black powder history and left the problem solving up to us.

So some folk have decided to abandon the black powder tradition. The struggle to bump soft lead with smokeless is too much bother for most. Spending $hundreds for gun smithing seems to be preferable.

Whichever path you decide on, be safe.
Pepe Ray

[Buckshot]

.............Ah yes, GOPHER SLAYER and I had a conversation on the phone this evening about this. I thought it was all a done deal. The other day he came by the house. The 38-55 is NOT a .375" anything. My edjumacashun with the 38-55 began when I'd bought this nice old M93 Marlin:

http://www.fototime.com/47DD87E404FADAE/standard.jpg

The first mould I bought was the Lyman 375449 or some such which was for a 264gr FNGC. It dropped it's slugs at 'barely' .377". They didn't shoot for rancid Owl Sweat. Slugging the Marlin I found out it had a .380" groove. AHA! It was a true 380! Who would have guessed with that '38' ahead of the -55 in it's nomenclature! :-)

So it was but a trice that I bought a Saeco #738 for a 225gr tapered FNPB slug really, actually, realistically DESIGNED for the 38-55. It dropped from the mould at .382" on the wide base band.

http://www.fototime.com/D2244CBB5698496/standard.jpg

With that Saeco sized to .380" over the ubiquitous 16.0 2400 in Winchester headstamped 38-55 cases (2.080" long) it would shoot these groups @ 50 yards (left hand target) all day long. Since I was only really using it for the "Burrito Match" which was 10 rounds offhand at 50 yards, and it would generally put 8-10 rounds in the 10 ring if I was up to it, what more could a person ask for?

But then I fell in love with the 38-55, and a lot of that was it's appearance. To me it is a very appealing cartridge. Tidy looking and exceeding well proportioned. It looked to me to be a baby 45-90, which is another one of those rounds that just looks right, and is correctly proportioned. In any event it did what it was supposed to do without fuss or bother, and I suspect a person cannot ask for a lot more. Then at one point GOPHER SLAYER and another friend (Larry) both bought used Uberti Hi-Walls in 38-55 from a couple mutual friends.

Being the way I am and the fact that we all shot EVERY Tuesday, I simply had to have one. I ended up having to buy a brand new one since both these loosers had sucked up the available used ones.

http://www.fototime.com/A75FAC00C7D6686/standard.jpg

I had to play some "One Upmanship" so I bought mine with set triggers and a pistol grip. I was rewarded with a rifle that had a *** barrel that had to be sent to 2 different Uberti Depots to make it right. But that's probably just my luck. I have vowed that I will not buy a new Uberti ANYTHING from now on. Afterwards though it was a real shooter and there was never a problem with it's triggers. It has a .380" groove, and a REAL 38-55 chamber accepting the Starline 2.125" brass with no issue, and it has a bit of a throat to it. Maybe I just finally lucked out?

It wasn't too long before I decided it really deserved to have the 'Real Deal' and that was paper patched boolits. However it shot any .380/.381" grease grooved slugs very well, but paper patched slugs are so sexy (at least in my noggin'). It was the matter of a few days and I made up a set of swage dies so I could do some paper patching.

http://www.fototime.com/6DD15BDBE5D31B1/standard.jpg

These were a bit adventurous as the Uberti's 16" twist wouldn't handle a slug much over 310grs.

http://www.fototime.com/881261E4534FC9E/standard.jpg

However it would shoot these 292gr PP'd slugs very well.

http://www.fototime.com/85B26C1E8A40EF8/standard.jpg

This 10 shot group was shot at 100 yards. The 292gr PP'd slugs over 18.0 grs of SR4759. That bigger round hole was made by a Lee 250 gr slug used to find the sight setting. I figured 1.375" for 10 rounds at 100 yards wasn't too shabby.

In any event when Mr.GOPHER SLAYER stopped by the other day and we spent a few hours sorting out his original Hi-Wall actioned rifle with it's Atkinson-Marquardt barrel we had it figured out. It does seem to have a tight short throated chamber, but it IS of the correct 2.125" length. We DID have it chambering one of my .381" paper patched slugs using Starline 2.125" 38-55 brass, but they couldn't be seated out too far.

http://www.fototime.com/B3E63F6E6D99152/standard.jpg

In my Uberti they will accept them seated thus. His rifle wants them a bit shorter. Plus I made him a Lyman type 'M' casemouth expander to fit his 'REAL' Winchester Hi-wall. We plumed it's depths and figured out what would and wouldn't work. I'm happy with what I have ..............:-)

...................Buckshot

[smokeywolf]

Swell write-up Buckshot and that Uberti Hi-Wall is truly a thing of beauty. Thanks for the pics.

smokeywolf

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I do appreciate all the help the members on this forum have given me with this problem and I especially appreciate the time that buckshot took out of his busy day to help resolve it. You guys keep him chained to his lathe till all hours. He drove some 40 cal lead bullets into my Winchester 38-55 chamber. We found that the forward end of the chamber is .380. My Uberti's chamber is .397 at the throat. Buckshot did a few trick things and found that if he loaded a 250 grain bullet into a Starline case up to the crimp grove [kind of peek-a- boo style] that it could be loaded into my rifle, with a bit of thumb pressure. Now that set of conditions does make the gun usable, sort of, but I have several molds for this cartridge that throw heavier bullets and I want to shoot those as well. Later that evening in a phone conversation with Buckshot, his solution to my problem was for me to sell the rifle. Now I ask you, is that in the spirit of America? Suppose Buckshot was a doctor and I went to him with a severe case of dandruff. I shutter to think what method of treatment he might suggest. Suppose Edison had given up on the light bulb, I could be typing this by a kerosene lamp or maybe even a candle. No boys and girls, this rifle is just too pretty to give up on. It even has set triggers made by Don Rice. I have another friend who has a reamer for the 38-55 and I will try to borrow his. I called him days earlier about using it but he was suffering all sorts of medical problems and was in no mood to discuss chamber reamers. I will try him again next week. If I can't use his reamer I will rent one from the boys in Montana. I do not want to give up the ship. Semper FI, Anchors Away, Remember the Maine, Remember the Alamo, I have not yet begun to fight, We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Soldier on.

[Buckshot]

............Ah I suppose if you have nothing else to do! :-)

..............Buckshot

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Actually I would shudder, not shutter my windows, which of course would give me something to do also I should have said you weigh the anchor not away with it which would have been a much more difficult task. Despite what Buckshot says I do have another job. I monitor TV for the CIA but I can't talk about it.

[TXGunNut]

The 38-55 is NOT a .375" anything. -Buckshot

Very true. 375 Winchester reportedly traces it's lineage to the 38-55 but I've learned they are two distinctly different cartridges and deserve to be treated as such. My 375 shoots rounds just a bit under factory loads and the 38-55 has seen nothing but BP loads so far. Two moulds, two sets of dies, two rifles...that all seem to look remarkably alike.