Testing the 30XCB [Archive]

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Bjornb

08-31-2014, 04:17 PM

Went to the range this morning, to test Big Bertha, the target rifle rechambered into 30x57 (30XCB) by Tim Malcolm. I picked up the rifle from Tim in Arkansas about a week ago, and I've been busy prepping brass and loading rounds since then. My ammo for today was as follows:
168 Hornady A-max, 42.4 grs. IMR4895, 10 pcs.
155 SMK Palma, moly coated, 44 grs. IMR 4895, 10 pcs.
160 grs. Accurate 31-160G, cast, sized and lubed by Tim, 43 grs. AA4350 (10), 44 grs. AA4350 (10)
155 grs. Lyman 311466DX, lino/scrap, sized .309, Lars CR lube, alu. gas checks, 10 each of 43, 44 and 45 grs. AA4350.
All shooting was done from bench, at 100 yards, using front rest and rear sand bag. I also used my rudimentary Chrony Beta to record velocity.

The A-max bullets that had shot well for Tim during his testing did not shoot well for me. After managing a 4-inch group (10 shots) I was about ready to pack it in from depression. The rifle was rock steady, and there was no wind, so I had no excuses.
Shifting to the Palma bullets changed things around a bit. At least it clearly showed that Tim knows how to build a rifle:
115078
Average MV was 2745 fps, with an extreme spread of 35. Pretty good so far.

However, this is when it started going downhill. All the 4350 loads went all over the place. I'm not even bothering with pictures, it was ugly.
Velocities recorded were from 2151 fps with the Accurate bullet (43 grs.) to as high as 2445 fps with the 311466 and 45 grains of powder.
I even let one of my RSO buddies sit down for a 5-shot string (he's a competitive F-class shooter) just to make sure I wasn't getting Parkinson's or something similar. His grouping was every bit as terrible as mine. We are talking 8 inches or more here. Not worth measuring.
So, just to sum up some of the possible issues:
1. I was fireforming my brass
2. Cases and bullets were not weighed or segregated
3. My bullet alloy is definitely not high quality stuff

These are just observations, not excuses. I'm going back to the drawing board that will include the new NOE bullet developed by Tim and Larry for this cartridge.
I'll be casting these from real Lyman #2 alloy, and lubing with Lars 2500+ as per Larry's suggestions. I used CCI BR-2 primers for all the above loads. I'll be switching to Winchester LR primers for the future, since that's what the other participants in the testing will be using, and it's also a primer I have a good supply of (with the same batch number).
It was a very interesting outing, and I'll continue to post my rifle's performance when I have something to report.
Bjorn

Bjornb

08-31-2014, 07:52 PM

Yup, Bjorn, you're learning the same way I did......if you're going to dance you've got to pay the band. In this dance that means quality everything especially the cast bullets and the alloy not to mention everything else. She's a beautiful dance partner and sure can swing once you quit stepping on her toes........just remember, once that bullet comes out of that muzzle balance is everything..........if that bullet isn't balanced she steps on your toes..........:guntootsmiley:

Larry Gibson

Very true. This is my first foray into loading for "real accuracy", and a lot of the old habits (that die hard) have to be changed. I have for a long time been very happy with Ed Harris' 16 grains of 2400, and with shooting milsurp rifles of average and sometimes even of good quality. It will take some time and some stumbles but I'm sure enjoying the journey!

Bjornb

09-07-2014, 02:52 PM

OK, so I took Big Bertha back to the range today to see if she (and I) could "Dance With The Stars". I came a little better prepared this time, both Larry, Tim and Sgt. Mike were consulted on the various aspects of how to make the 30XCB shoot. I received a 4-cavity brass 30XCB 165 gr. mould from Al Nelson, and after mixing Lyman #2 alloy in the Lee bottom pour I was casting bullets. The bottom pour bullets didn't impress me however; they didn't have a nice consistent look, so after about 150 bullets i switched to a regular Lee pot and a Lyman ladle. This immediately changed the appearance of the bullets to the better, and about 250 were cast up. I then weighed and sorted them; they weighed between 158.2 and 159.6 grains with a decent bell curve in the middle. Tim told me it wasn't perfect and that the curve showed I was running the pot too hot (745 with a PID), and I'll change that next casting session. But, I went ahead and loaded 116 rounds for this test. That was the number of cases left to fireform from the first outing. I loaded as follows:

30 grs. IMR4895 w/dacron and second sortiment bullets (bottom pour):16
43 grs. AA4350:10
44 grs. AA4350:10
45 grs. AA4350:10
50 grs. H4831SC:10
51 grs. H4831SC:10

The remaining 50 were loaded over 16 grs. 2400; I knew I'd be running short on time at the range and wanted to get all the brass fireformed.
Primers were Winchester LR, Lube was Lars 2500+, gas checks were Hornady. Lubed and gas checked in one step in a Lyman 4500 with a .311 H&I die.
There was no issue chambering with the bullets having dropped at .3105-.311.
All shots were taken at 100 yards.

First I shot the IMR4895 loads. Except for the first from a cold barrel, they settled in nicely:
115734
Then the last 6 I had left:
115735
These were reject bullets from the bottom pour session, so I was starting to feel pretty good about the rifle. The first of these loads measured 2100 FPS on the chronograph, and then I got an error message on the second shot (couldn't reset my cheapo Chrony with the line being hot), so no further MV reading were taken with this load.
I then started shooting the AA4350 loads, and I'll just post the pictures here:
115736
115737
115738
Larry had commented in a PM that he thought my 4350 loads were a little on the light side, and these groups indicate that he's right about that. Next range visit I'll keep increasing with the AA4350 until groups fall apart.
Finally I shot 20 rounds of the H4831SC; the first group stay reasonably together, but with 51 grains (case takes 52-53 max.), it fell apart pretty badly:
115739
115740
All in all a very good outing, I'll keep on truckin' until next time.
Bjorn

MBTcustom

09-07-2014, 04:30 PM

I have to say, Picture #2 is by far the best group I have ever seen with cast lead anywhere close to that speed. Good Lord, you could shoot aspirins off a plank at 100 yards with that load.

Bjornb

09-07-2014, 06:02 PM

Now that is more like it! Very good indeed! The cartridge/rifle/NOE bullet are definitely bearing fruit. That H4831SC load that fell apart just may need a bit better weight selection. It is right about the velocity/RPM where my 14" twist barrel's accuracy falls apart also. More testing is needed......you won't mind that, eh?

Larry Gibson

I can be talked into some more trigger time.....you know Larry, Bruno's in Phoenix has 1 in 18 twist Kriegers in stock.......it's tempting to go for 3K.
....Jokes aside, I'll be shooting at a larger range later this month, my goal is to have tested enough loads that I can bring some to the 200 and 300 yard ranges. Unfortunately I live in a Metropolis cesspool that serves 1.8 million (Broward County) with ONE 100-yard rifle range. It's a disgrace but not likely to improve anytime soon.

MostlyLeverGuns

09-07-2014, 06:18 PM

On your first outing, did you shoot the moly 155's before the lead?. Occasionally, moly can cause difficulty if not cleaned out before boolits. You probably cleaned the bore before the next batch?

Bjornb

09-07-2014, 06:38 PM

On your first outing, did you shoot the moly 155's before the lead?. Occasionally, moly can cause difficulty if not cleaned out before boolits. You probably cleaned the bore before the next batch?

Yes I shot the moly before the lead, and no I did NOT clean the bore between batches. Funny you should bring it up, Sgt. Mike commented on the same issue when I told him I was planning to load the molys. He had previous experience where the moly coating caused problems for later non-moly loads. It could account for some of the bad shooting, but I choose to believe that the main culprit was poor bullet quality, sizing the bullets too small (.309) and also possibly poor lube choice. After all we're only talking 10 moly-coated bullets. But who knows....

Bjornb

09-07-2014, 06:45 PM

Miller formula gives that bullet a good 1.4 for stability (recommended number for full stability) at 2600 fps with an 18" twist..........standard '06 may be the better case for pushing to 3,000 fps to keep the psi manageable. Let's see where we get with the 30x57 in the 16" twist barrel. At 3000 fps the RPM is 135,000 which is where we seem to be topping out with the 14" twist barrels. I'll have the action length with the VZ24 action for the chamber to be reamed deeper all the way to '06 if needed. That's one of the concepts behind the 30x57 using an '06 reamer is you can adjust the case capacity from .308W to the '06 case capacity and anything in between depending on the case capacity needed for the velocity/barrel twist/bullet weight. Some are failing to comprehend that concept and the other design concepts when comparing the 30x57 (30 XCB) to other similar cartridges.

Back to your thoughts......3000 fps may be entirely possible and we could just jump ahead but since the 16" twist is on order lets see what it does. The 18" twist is getting on the borderline of stability with the 165 gr bullet unless it is run at full throttle. Now with the stubby 311465 Loverin 122 gr bullet.........hmmmmmmm

Larry Gibson

It will also be interesting to see if you can get good results with the 150 gr. LBT mould. It has a nose/body design similar to the NOE, but is considerably shorter.

tomme boy

09-07-2014, 09:45 PM

I have seen just switching from IMR to Hodgdon powders you had to shoot about 5-10 shots to recondition the bore. I think ANY change of components is going to matter if you are after the best possible groups.

Bjornb

09-07-2014, 10:16 PM

Yes, this project is only in its infancy and lots of test shooting lies ahead (and that's what I love about it!). I'll be trying out several of the "slower" rifle powders (and then Larry will get his rifle and I can shamelessly copy his loads). I've been using QuickLoad data for the Krag 30-40 and the RCBS 165 SIL bullet to approximate speeds and pressures in the XCB. The loads I shot today were very close in velocity.

runfiverun

09-09-2014, 02:06 PM

never mind the moly coating.
I use moly lube for the HV loads.
if someone can show me how moisture will penetrate a moly [or cast boolit lubed] coating and attack a barrel i'll scrub it out of my AR-30, 6-H target, 30X284, and my Armalite M-15 N.M. rifles right now..

Bjornb

09-09-2014, 10:11 PM

No problem. The Lilja FAQ link was an interesting read.

runfiverun

09-09-2014, 10:49 PM

sorry for the drift also.
I worried about the moly thing for 20-25 years then gave up, it could just be the climate differences we all face [shrug]

anyway, going 2 steps slower than slow for jacketed is generally a good place to start looking for cast velocity.

taco650

09-13-2014, 12:11 AM

Bjornb,

Those are some promising groups!

2wheelDuke

09-13-2014, 12:52 AM

I can be talked into some more trigger time.....you know Larry, Bruno's in Phoenix has 1 in 18 twist Kriegers in stock.......it's tempting to go for 3K.
....Jokes aside, I'll be shooting at a larger range later this month, my goal is to have tested enough loads that I can bring some to the 200 and 300 yard ranges. Unfortunately I live in a Metropolis cesspool that serves 1.8 million (Broward County) with ONE 100-yard rifle range. It's a disgrace but not likely to improve anytime soon.

It's nice to see somebody shares my misery in having to deal with Markham Park. Markham makes a road trip up 27 to Hendry County not seem so bad.

Bjornb

09-13-2014, 06:46 PM

Yep, Markham Park it is, and I spent some time of today loading for tomorrow's trip to the range. I'm building on last week's loads, increasing the amount of AA4350. 45,46,47 and 48 are all loaded. The only change I have made is heat treating the NOE bullets at 460 degrees for 40 minutes. I don't have a reliable hardness tester, so I can't really say if it's made a difference. I also seated the gas checks in a separate operation on the 4500, it looks like they are easier to get perfectly square that way. The cases are now fireformed and have been neck sized in a "stock" Redding 30-06 N/S die cut short by Goodsteel. Time will tell if it becomes necessary to get a bushing style die. The loaded rounds measure .3375-.338, which makes them sit very tight in the chamber. I have a .310 H&I die coming Monday (sizing .311 now), that may just be what gives the perfect fit. I see no reason to turn the necks any further; they measure .0125 now and that's supposed to be just right according to my intel. I'll check back in when there's something to report.

MBTcustom

09-13-2014, 10:17 PM

Sounds very copacetic Bjornb. Good luck!

Bjornb

09-14-2014, 07:18 PM

OK this will be short & sweet (maybe): Went to the range today, got most of my shooting done before a thunderstorm gave us the "Lightning Warning" and firing was halted.
When I finally collected my target it was disintegrating, so I won't bore anybody with snapshots. I had loaded the NOE bullet, heat treated since last outing, over these charges of AA4350: 44,45,46,47 and 48. Avg. MVs were, respectively, 2381,2470,2495,2588 and 2573. 10 shots fired of each. Both the 44,45 and 46 gr. loads stayed below 2 MOA, just like the lighter loads had done previously, but the 47 and 48 grain loads started to scatter badly. Additionally, all avg. velocities were lower this week compared to last, and the 48 grain charge was slower than the 47.
I had to drop the rifle at my shop without inspecting her closely, I need to see if there was leading. I don't really know what else could have caused the speed decrease.
One thing had changed: All brass this outing was fireformed, and neck sized in a Redding NS die. With the bullets loaded as cast (close to .311), it made for several tight chamberings. Sizing down to .310 should relieve that problem somewhat.

I had also loaded some jacketed rounds to establish some baselines. However, I ran into some unexpected problems here. The fired cases were very difficult to extract (loads were definitely not very high pressure), and the cases had to be tapped out. Goodsteel speculates that he fabricated the extractor with not enough "bite" on the extractor groove (to ease chambering). I tend to agree, since the cases didn't need much persuasion to be loosened. The jacketed loads were 125 SMKs over H335 and 150 SMKs over IMR4895, pretty much 308 Win. loads from the book.
I'm taking a trip to Arkansas this coming week, so I'll bring Bertha over to Goodsteel's for an inspection of the extractor. More to follow when she's back on the firing line.

Bjornb

09-14-2014, 11:29 PM

Yeah I have gone back and tried to analyze what happened. A different chronograph was used (same model Chrony but with remote control). That could account for the lower velocities across the board, but it still leaves the discrepancies between the individual charges. I weigh all my charges on an RCBS Chargemaster 1500. It could be off, I'll check it with control weights. Maybe it's time to break out the old RCBS powder measure and a beam scale.
I'll be casting some more NOE bullets this week, using certified Hardball alloy from Roto. Just to take another variable off the table. I couldn't be 100% sure my linotype was exactly as advertised, thus I didn't trust that my alloy was really Lyman #2.

runfiverun

09-14-2014, 11:35 PM

sometimes a powder just flatlines when it's near a peak.

I'd really like to see you go to a slower powder than 4350.
rl-19 is going to be my starting point, and rl-22 is on my second step list.

Bjornb

09-15-2014, 12:01 AM

sometimes a powder just flatlines when it's near a peak.

I'd really like to see you go to a slower powder than 4350.
rl-19 is going to be my starting point, and rl-22 is on my second step list.

I have H4831SC, IMR 4831 and H-1000. I believe I saw both RL-19 and RL-22 at Bass Pro today, so that should be doable. Also IMR 4350, which lists as slightly slower than the Accurate version.
There's also the issue of when I'll need to anneal these cases. They now have 2 firings on a newly formed and turned neck. I have bought the Anneal Rite setup just for this purpose, and I'm getting ready to plunge into another unknown. Input would be appreciated as to when it's recommended to anneal.

Sarge, you're incorrigible.

Bjornb

09-15-2014, 08:09 PM

Larry and Runfiverun,
duly noted. My next trials will concentrate on the slower powders. 4831, Hodgdon and IMR, plus RL 19 and 22 which I believe are both available locally here.

I shipped my chronograph off to Chrony today for an upgrade to the remote model. This is still an inexpensive chronograph (Chrony Beta Master), but it's what I have and it will be used exclusively for the remainder of the XCB testing. At the range where I shoot the chronograph setup is very consistent; it's set up at the end of the concrete that houses the covered shooting benches. My base is good and steady and the sky screen spacing is whatever the unit dictates.
116464

I'll pick up a beam scale to use as a control against my ChargeMaster. It can't hurt to be more accurate.

I converted 20 virgin W-W 7x57 Mauser cases today; not sure if it will mean anything to the shooting trials, but neck wall thickness was thinner than the formed 30-06 W-W brass. Factory thickness (quite uneven) varied between .012-.013, I turned the necks to .012. With the bullets sized at .310 this should give a diameter as loaded of .334, a dummy round chambered easily with an OAL of 2.80, and no sign of rifling imprint on the bullet. Goodsteel has a case ready for my Stoney Point OAL gauge which will make it less of a guess to seat the bullets at different depths.

The rifle will get some rest while she travels with me to Arkansas for a possible fitting of a new extractor. Should be shooting middle of next week.
Bjorn

Bjornb

09-15-2014, 09:35 PM

RED333

09-15-2014, 10:47 PM

6 feet +- a few inches. This is on the short side, but again I'm limited by the layout of the county range. Setting up at 10-15 feet as recommended would place the Chrony in a swampy "dip" in the range and would not be feasible.
I do not have a chrony, but have read that might be a bit close, the blast could effect reading.
I have been wrong before and will be again.
I have got to get me a chrony.

Bjornb

09-15-2014, 11:22 PM

That looks very doable. I'll have the remote version by next outing so this will work as you depicted. Thanks.

Bjornb

09-25-2014, 09:32 PM

Took the 30XCB rifle to the range today, didn't really load up a lot of test loads; my chronograph is at the factory (Shooting Chrony) for an upgrade to remote display. Last time i shot the rifle I was getting some diagonal stringing; upon closer inspection the forearm was found to be binding on the barrel, starting about 6 inches back from the forearm tip.
117414
This stringing seems to have been caused as the barrel warmed up, and repeated with 4 different jacketed loads. Cast loads were just shooting very poorly.
So off with the action, and after a little sanding with 120 grit the old dollar bill was sliding underneath the barrel again. Some Tru-Oil and back together she went.
117415
A 10-shot group of jacketed just to make sure the problem was solved:
117416
Then I shot the only cast bullet rounds i had loaded: 47 grs. RL22, a fairly stout load that filled the case nearly to the base of the bullet:
117417
Not the worst result; I estimate the MV in the 2500 fps range.

However, during a visit to Goodsteel to have a new extractor installed, Tim discovered a small internal bulge in the barrel. That discovery, and coupled with the fact that the rifling is quite worn, led us to order a new Krieger barrel today, to be delivered within 6 months. 32 inches, 1-14 twist, 1.25 in. diameter.
Tim is only a few weeks from completing my second rifle in 30x57/XCB, so Big Bertha will be getting some rest while the new rifle (named Carmen Sandiego) gets broken in.

Love Life

09-25-2014, 09:46 PM

Why thank you. I would enjoy that very much. I can bring milsurps and ammo and other cool stuff. You are welcome here any time, but prepare yourself for the gnats!!

Bjornb

09-25-2014, 09:51 PM

I spend summers in Alaska so flying insects are considered companions.

Bjornb

09-25-2014, 11:07 PM

Bjornb

"Then I shot the only cast bullet rounds i had loaded: 47 grs. RL22, a fairly stout load that filled the case nearly to the base of the bullet"

You need to get more RL22 in that 30x57 (30 XCB) case. I get 49 gr in my Winchester Palma .308W cases under that bullet. At 47 gr RL 22 my .308W Palma rifle ran 2400 fps at 35,400 psi. You're probably doing a bit less with the larger case. I suspect you should get 52 - 53 gr RL 22 in your 30 XCB cases. You should be doing a fast Quick Step with Big Bertha not a Viennese Waltz.........that group shows her potential......she wants to dance.........

Larry Gibson

True dat Larry.....but we've been stepping on each other's toes lately. Will shoot again Sunday and report back.

lar45

09-26-2014, 11:18 AM

So who makes a good barrel, 14 or 16 twist, that you don't have to wait 6 months to get?

Love Life

09-26-2014, 11:34 AM

I'd call Schneider. Last pair I ordered took less than 10 weeks. Their website sucks, but their phone works.

tomme boy

09-26-2014, 12:37 PM

Call Benchmark also. Maybe Rock Creek.

Love Life

09-26-2014, 12:38 PM

Maybe Hart might have one?

Bjornb

09-26-2014, 01:33 PM

There are some barrels available at Brunos, he has a couple of Kriegers in 14 twist in stock. 28 inch barrels in Varmint profiles. About $335. I couldn't use them on Bertha since she requires a straight 1.25" barrel, but for a sporter-stocked rifle they should be perfect.

MBTcustom

09-26-2014, 02:21 PM

Lothar Walther. It's no Krieger, but it scares the heck out of it. Very good quality barrels.
Check the supply houses online like Bruno's as has been mentioned.
Look for these brands:
Krieger
Bartlien
Schnieder
Brux
Lothar Walther
Broughton
Hart
Lilja
Pac Nor
Douglass
I don't really care for Shilen
Green Mountain will get you 3/4MOA eventually, 1.5 MOA out of the gate.
Steer clear of McGowen. I regret to say they have lost my business permanently, and I would rather use a factory Savage barrel. In fact, I would pay not to have to use that product. Nuf said. YMMV

RED333

09-26-2014, 05:20 PM

What is that old saying, You get what you pay for.
One day I might get me a rifle built, but for now I am happy with what I have, and that is what counts.

Love Life

09-27-2014, 08:17 AM

Dick I kinda figured you would pick this up and run with it.
Ohh well LOL

Did you do your rifle qual with a krag?

MBTcustom

09-27-2014, 08:29 AM

Did you do your rifle qual with a krag?

What an insult! I thought the Sargent qualified with a Springfield? (Trapdoor)

Love Life

09-27-2014, 11:27 AM

BWB qualified with the spear!!

MBTcustom

09-27-2014, 11:29 AM

BWB qualified with the spear!!
I've been meaning to ask him if he got to use the new tacticool bronze tip, or if he had to stick with mil-spec stone. Hmmm, I'll PM him.

RED333

09-27-2014, 03:37 PM

It will come back as soon as you post some more targets.

tomme boy

09-27-2014, 05:48 PM

I would skip the Richards Microfit stocks unless you like to finish everything on the whole stock. They are not user friendly.

MBTcustom

09-27-2014, 06:17 PM

I would skip the Richards Microfit stocks unless you like to finish everything on the whole stock. They are not user friendly.

This is true, however, I don't know where else you can get a finished stock in some of their more practical target styles. That, and for many people who are truely interested in accuracy, the barrel is not where they are going to cut cost. The stock? Well, it beats the alternative. Lot's of folks are on a very tight budget.

RED333

09-28-2014, 09:35 AM

I would skip the Richards Microfit stocks unless you like to finish everything on the whole stock. They are not user friendly.
I picked up one for my Browning A bolt, Had the action fitted in a few hours.
The rest took a few more hours, all in all, about 8 hours of work and I am very happy with the way it came out.
The good thing about a "ruff" after market stock, you can make it "yours", the bad, it takes some time.
I had the time, the basic know how, so it was good for me.
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Left%20handed%207mm%20mag/abolt2_zps7bb890c0.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Left%20handed%207mm%20mag/abolt2_zps7bb890c0.jpg.html)

Doc Highwall

09-28-2014, 10:19 AM

RED333, Nice job and I see you are in your right mind as the bolt is on the left side of the gun, same as mine.

I am thinking of getting some of Richards stock blanks for a winter project.

MBTcustom

09-28-2014, 11:51 AM

I have often considered learning to shoot left handed. I'm left eye dominant you see. When I shoot a rifle left handed, it feels like riding a horse facing backwards, but my brain is at piece. Just never could bring myself to learn to shoot left.

Bjornb

09-28-2014, 12:02 PM

Another range trip today, sunny South Florida, 85 degrees, no wind. Had a borrowed chronograph set up at a measured 11 feet from the muzzle. No other variables have been changed, case prep, primers, gas checks and lube remains the same. Tried 5 different loads of Alliant RL22. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. All loads were fired in 10-shot strings, from front rest and rear sandbag at 100 yards. Muzzle velocities are averaged, there were no dramatic extreme spreads.
117625117626117627117628117629

I also took pictures of a couple of sample cases to show the necks and primers after firing. Case on left is 47 gr. charge, case on right is 51 grs.:
117630117631

I did not measure the groups as I just wanted to show the trend with progressively higher charges. Target dots are 1 inch if anyone really cares.

Love Life

09-28-2014, 12:08 PM

Is that horizontal dispersion at 51 gr shooter error? A serious question with no malice or offense intended.

That 47 gr case neck is what all of my .243 necks looked like using Retumbo, even with annealing. Even with necks like that the bullet was traveling 3200 FPS (jacketed) and sub MOA at 1,000 yds. I'd continue to play with variables with the 47 gr load and reshoot the 51 gr load on it's own to see if the dispersion was caused by shooter fatigue after firing the 1st 40 shots.

Bjornb

09-28-2014, 12:26 PM

LL, it's not a tiring rifle to shoot. She's so heavy that she just sits there on the front rest, not moving much. And no offense is taken (even though my kids think I'm infallible). The 47 gr. load was very encouraging, and I was planning to continue loading all the way to a compressed load for the next outing. Also got H-1000, I'll try that just to see what she does with a super-slow powder.

RED333

09-28-2014, 01:29 PM

Cleaning between groups?
Time between shoots and groups?
The lower charge does show promise.
I do not shoot that good on a good day.

Love Life

09-28-2014, 01:48 PM

Which shots were the high and low outers in the 48, 49, and 51gr groups? Were they random?

Bjornb

09-28-2014, 06:08 PM

LL, the flyers in each group were random. However, as an RO buddy commented (he's an F class shooter), in his opinion I was shooting my various loads too rapidly, risking poor accuracy from an overheated barrel. I admit to being under a time constraint; that's not good but such is my schedule sometimes. I will make time for slower fire, and rather do my shooting over several sessions.
Red, there was no cleaning between strings. There was no leading observed after the range session and the rifle cleaned up with one wet patch and 2 dry patches.
Larry, I think it's also time to change some other variables. I'm doing as best as I can with the casting and sorting, even though there are most likely many casters out there that can do a better job. Lee pot and Lyman Ladle, plus a PID from Goodsteel, that's what I've got. I've been reading one of Joe Brennan's texts today, where he describes a primer test using velocities vs. pressures as variables. The WLR primer that I've bee using came out as the primer creating the highest pressure, CCI 200 the lowest. Pressure difference was over 10K psi. Cartridge was 300 Win Mag. Interestingly enough, velocities were nearly identical. I can reference this text if any of you wish.
Another variable is of course lube. I know that this is a very delicate subject on this forum, but other lubes should possibly be tried. I have no favorites, since before I started shooting the XCB, Lars BAC was my favorite and only lube. I'm wide open to suggestions.
From the parallel XCB thread it appears that 1 or more of the other XCB rifles will not be made available for testing, and that's too bad. Btrojs rifle is an absolute beauty (I held her in my hands) and would probably outshoot Bertha, giving valuable info to the rest of the forum.
I'll keep shooting as long as it's fun.
Bjorn

roadie

09-28-2014, 11:28 PM

Ok guys, it's a free country. I sure wish you both luck with your XCB rifles. And I mean that.

Personally, I think it's a good thing that btroj and geargnasher are running their own tests, their own way. That's how new things are discovered, rather than sticking to the old, only way to do things. They might well branch off to something that could leave the old, only ways in the dust. Might be hard for those with huge egos to accept, but, that's life.

I also believe that their findings will be shared with the forum at some point, I don't think that anyone can say that either geargnasher or btroj have been unwilling to help others in the past.....I sure haven't seen that. And I can well understand their hesitation in posting results now. It's been well demonstrated that those results will be attacked.

BTW: Were it me, I'd play around with the 49 gr. load.....it has a nice core group. It might also stop that soot that the 47 gr. has.....but that's just me.

Bjornb

09-28-2014, 11:42 PM

Bjornb

I think we should compare bullets. There is no reason you shouldn't push 2600+ fps with accuracy with that 14" twist rifle. I'm casting some more NOE 310-165s this week. I see we are casting the bullets quite a bit differently. How about I send you some when I get them cast, GC'd and lubed? Maybe you can send me some? Besides the differences in casting the bullet I think we should change one variable at a time. Do you have any H4831SC or RL19?

As to Brennan's tests; I've no disagreement with them. As long as the same load is used primers do make a difference in pressure. However, if you are working up a load the primers (as long as ignition is consistent) do not make a difference in accuracy because it be at most likely the same pressure. The biggest difference I found so far is with powders. Even those of the same type and close to the same burning range make the biggest difference IF the cast bullet can take the acceleration. As with you I have not had as good accuracy with RL22 at the same psi's and velocities as with AA4350, RL19 and H4831SC.

Larry Gibson

Good idea, PM with shipping address sent.

geargnasher

09-29-2014, 12:24 AM

Ok guys, it's a free country. I sure wish you both luck with your XCB rifles. And I mean that.

This will probably come as a shocker to you and a lot of people, but I wish you, Tim, and Larry success with this project, too. Wishing it won't make it happen, but with the slower twists and tight chambers this should be a slam-dunk for all of you.

Gear

MBTcustom

09-29-2014, 09:35 AM

This thread has been cleaned up and superfluous posts have been deleted, and infractions given.
Further attempts to troll will be dealt with.

Bjornb

09-29-2014, 11:49 PM

Sarge I doubt you need my help with your groups but thanks for the compliment (I've seen your shooting).
As for Hodgdon Superformance, it is listed directly underneath H4831 (slower) on the burn rate chart. That should make it a candidate for testing; especially since it is a ball powder and therefore may behave differently than the other powder types.

At the local BassPro today (looking for RL19), the powders in stock were IMR4320, Leverevolution, RL7 and 17, and H414. A sad state of affairs.

runfiverun

09-30-2014, 12:38 PM

DR Owl Creek

09-30-2014, 01:43 PM

FWIW. I haven't tried using Hodgdon Superformance with cast bullets yet, but it works very well for me with jacketed bullets in 243 WSSM, 270 WSM, and 300 WSM loads, giving very good accuracy and high velocities.

Dave

Bjornb

09-30-2014, 07:57 PM

Bjornb

The Super Performance powder made to produce a bit different time/pressure curve than regular powders as is LeveRevolution. While the peak psi's may be close to the same as H4831 how the pressure curve gets there is different.........slower in the "rise" basically. I'm trying to get some to test also. Sending NOE XCB bullets (80) out today. They are sized (.311....as cast basically), GC'd with Hornady GCs and lubed with 2500+. Suggest you load them as is over 46, 47, 48 and 49 gr of H4831SC.

Larry Gibson

Good. I'm loading my few remaining bullets for shooting Thursday, will try to duplicate Sunday's loads with CCI primers. Yours will be loaded as suggested.

Bjornb

09-30-2014, 08:08 PM

your primers WILL definitely affect the powders you use.
with rl-19 I have found that the federal large rifle [210] or the rem 9-1/2 to be the primer of choice in almost all of my rifles I use it in. [with one exception the mag-tech 9-1/2 in my 257 bob]
the 25-06's both like the fed, my 7x57 Ackley likes the 9-1/2, the 7x57 likes the fed, but all the rifles shrunk groups by about 25% just through this one change.
H-414 might be worth looking at too, we have to balance out the pressure rise with the boolits
mush-ability.
backing the boolit out of the rifling is also something that may help too. [especially when switching to a faster powder]
jamming the boolit in the throat can cause the slower powder to increase it's burn rate, something I learned the hard way [using 7828 in the 0-6 with an oversized 314299]

I'll be doing a lot of testing with CCI 200, there's no Federal 210s available around here, been looking everywhere. I shot CCI exclusively before the shortage, and never had any issues.
Since I got me a Hornady OAL gauge and Tim made a modified XCB case for it, I have been able to seat bullets much more accurately. Right now I'm seating the NOE about 15-20/1000s off the rifling.

Today I discovered a stash of about 250 Norma cases in 7x57 that I had forgotten about, and I've spent most of the day converting them to XCB. These cases, being unfired and chamfered, measure 56.4 mm after being necked up. That's slightly shorter than the XCB cases I've been shooting (made from W-W 30-06 brass), and the Norma brass feels softer (cutting necks now), so It'll be interesting to see if that has any effect.

runfiverun

09-30-2014, 08:23 PM

a little voice inside my head went yeahhh then NNNNnnnoooOOOOO!!
when hearing bout that norma brass.
no cut necks unless they won't release the boolit, you want the thickness to help center the boolits center with the center of the barrel.

Bjornb

09-30-2014, 08:26 PM

OK thanks, still setting up, none cut yet, will try to load some before cutting. No damage done.

BTW just miked the Norma case necks. I turned the Winchester brass down to .0125 thickness; the Norma necks seem to all measure between .0125-.0135 uncut. So I'll definitely leave them alone for now.

There are 2 different Norma head stamps; one says Norma Re, the other just norma (small n). Not sure if that makes any difference.

taco650

09-30-2014, 09:49 PM

Bjornb

09-30-2014, 10:35 PM

Larry & other testers,

Reading the powder choices you are trying, what about my old favorite IMR 4831? Since I'm not going to have one these rifles built & am just sitting on the sidelines as it were, please forgive me if my suggestion is bad.

Your suggestion is absolutely not bad; I'll be testing IMR 4831 in my XCB rifle very soon. I'm a little behind in bullet casting (hate casting in 95 degrees), but I'll be posting the results when I have them.

runfiverun

10-01-2014, 12:32 AM

45 grs of 4831 will get you some velocity. [bout 2400 fps]
if you go much below that the powder won't fully burn.
Dacron does help clean it up.

taco650

10-01-2014, 08:11 AM

45 grs of 4831 will get you some velocity. [bout 2400 fps]
if you go much below that the powder won't fully burn.
Dacron does help clean it up.

I've used it a lot in my '06 and its worked well in my factory M-77 all these years but like you suggest, the loads have filled up the case.

Bjornb

10-01-2014, 05:31 PM

I'm taking a slightly different tack in planning a range trip for tomorrow (weather permitting). Running low on bullets, I loaded a total of 70 rounds with 5 different powders: AA4350, H4831SC, W760, IMR4831 and H1000.
No single charge got more than 5 cartridges loaded. Not overly scientific, but it will allow me to cover more ground and try to single out good trends. I'll be shooting newly formed cases (Norma 7x57), necks not turned.
The bolt closed with just a little extra effort on a seated .310 bullet, and extraction of loaded rounds went OK with the bullets keeping their seating depth. I seated all bullets to about a 5/1000 jump, using the ogive attachment (bullet comparator) on my Stoney Point tool.
The only variable that has completely changed is primer choice, all rounds are primed with CCI 200, 2013 batch.
Since barrel heat may have been a factor in previous outings I'll be pausing 2 minutes+ between shots.
Bjorn

runfiverun

10-01-2014, 05:39 PM

regular norma was the stuff you bought pre-loaded, the Re marked stuff is components.
I doubt there is any difference, but might be norma's way of assuring new brass to their customers.

Bjornb

10-01-2014, 08:15 PM

Yeah that makes sense. I went back in my records and looked at when I bought that brass. I said it was unfired, but it's really once fired, just cleaned in a SS tumbler. That had me fooled for a bit. Some guys really know how to get their brass shiny....

FrankG

10-01-2014, 09:09 PM

Ive been following along and have a question on the round , I checked manuals and find the 7.7 x 58 jap close to being a twin , not identical but very close .

That being said , 4320 and 4064 worked very well in a Jap sporter I had many years ago . It had a very good bore and tighter than usual chamber for a war time rifle . I used 30-06 G I cases reformed in Herters dies .

runfiverun

10-02-2014, 12:35 AM

the 7.7, 303, 7.65 argie, and x54r are all close in case capacity.
their loads can be slightly modified to make loads for this round.
the only one really close in pressure is the x54 round.

the two loads I posted earlier [with the jacketed bullets] were both done this way.

taco650

10-02-2014, 06:55 AM

Larry,

Thanks for the explanation about grain size, etc. I was only looking at burn rate & that's why I suggested it. Now I will shut up and "watch the show" ;-)

geargnasher

10-02-2014, 12:54 PM

10-shot, 2 MOA, at 2600 fps? I'm getting that now with a ~182 grain bullet, 12-twist, and H-414. Haven't checked the dispersion at longer ranges yet. It appears we all have different standards, different approaches to loading/building them, and different goals, which is fine and will show the versatility of the cartridge (like all cartridges similar to it), but mine is a bench rifle and if I can't make it shoot 3/4 MOA at least at near the top of it's velocity potential I feel that my work isn't done.

Gear

MBTcustom

10-02-2014, 01:03 PM

That's Awesome Gear.

geargnasher

10-02-2014, 01:43 PM

For a rifle that put five 150 gr. Berger Match bullets into .084" at a hundred yards after two sighters/adjustments with the first (and last) load tried w/jacketed, I think my 2MOA load sucks rocks and I have a lot left to work out. If anyone wants to duplicate that, they can go with fireformed brass, un-annealed, necks at .0133", Miha/45 2.1 "30 Silhouette" from water-quenched 50/50 @ 19bhn, seated .005" off the throat, Federal LR primers, SL-68 or Felix lube, and work up from 43 grains H-414 in half-grain increments until you get to 2600 fps. I'm not giving my load because it's pretty hot, USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT ABOUT WHEN TO STOP INCREASING THE POWDER CHARGE. Same powder gets under 3/4 MOA at 2400 fps, right where the alloy gives up in every .30 caliber I've shot it in including two ten-twists factory .308's. This is a 12-twist, 23.5" barrel.

Maybe some of you fellows who ponied up the bucks for Quickload could help us out here with some pressure estimates? My barrel is six groove, narrow lands, I'd have to look up my case volume, but I'm using military brass and it's a bit smaller than some of the numbers I've seen here. IIRC they hold about 48 grains of H-4350 to the BASE of the neck.

Gear

MBTcustom

10-02-2014, 01:48 PM

I have Quickload. If you PM me your h2o weight, and two powders you have tried with average speeds at a certain charge weight, I can get close to good estimate.
Of course, that's assuming Quickload is accurate on its pressure estimates.

geargnasher

10-02-2014, 01:58 PM

Cool, Tim, will do what I can. Honestly, I only chronographed the H414 loads because of the several other powders tried it shot the best by far with three bullet designs all close to the same weight. No sense in dragging out the chrono if only half the shots hit the paper. Yeah, load development hasn't all been roses.

Gear

MBTcustom

10-02-2014, 02:04 PM

Understandable. Just give me two loads with that powder (preferably loads where the spread settled down to a low SD)
That way, I can attempt to marry the program to your particular situation.
At least that's what I do. It's the only way I can call my shot with a new load and get close to the speed QL advertises, and I assume the pressure would be no different.

Bjornb

10-02-2014, 05:15 PM

Some more lead was flung downrange this morning by Big Bertha, my XCB rifle.
118027

As mentioned in a previous post I was running low on NOE XCB bullets, so a number of 5-shot strings were loaded.
For this outing I used newly formed, once fired Norma 7x57 Mauser brass, run once through the XCB FL sizing die and the case mouths chamfered. On advice from Runfiverun none of the case necks were turned. Of almost 70 rounds shot, maybe 5 required some effort to close the bolt (bullets sized .310). Good call.

The powders shot were: AA4350 (to establish baseline and repeatability), H4831SC, WW760, IMR4831 and Hodgdon H1000.
The only MAJOR changed variable was that CCI 200 primers were used instead of WLR primers. The cases were obviously also a changed variable, but I'm not really qualified to judge how much that changed the outcome today.
Lars 2500+ lube and Hornady gas checks were used as before.
I'll let the photos speak for themselves:

118028118029118030118031118032
Velocity in the first picture was 2325 fps, not 2375 as written.
118033118034118035
118036

Bjornb

10-02-2014, 05:16 PM

118037118038

Bjornb

10-02-2014, 07:37 PM

Going out to longer ranges is the next move I will be making. I'm making plans with a buddy to travel up to the next county later this month, to a 200 and 300 yard range.
I feel that both the rifle and the cartridge have proven themselves on the 100 yard line.

geargnasher

10-02-2014, 08:26 PM

I removed everything here,,,
Gear the message got through.
hopefully all parties involved with this thread and the other one got the message.

I have no idea how much data was lost in the time-out process but I bet it was enough that more than a few members feel slighted
R5R.

No_1

10-05-2014, 08:03 PM

This is a good thread. Y'all need to work together without conflict. Any violation of the forum rules will be addressed.

btroj

10-06-2014, 08:47 AM

Bjorn, have you ever checked fired cases, sized cases, or loaded rounds for runout?

I have not been doing so but will begin this week. I wonder if the reformed cases are going to have more runout that the factory 7x57 cases. That alone could explain some of the differences you are seeing.

Runout on the bullet is a bit tougher as my indicator picks up even the smallest imperfections like the part line on the bullet.

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 09:10 AM

No, I don't have a runout gauge. Not really a big deal to get one. It's a standard step in bench rest and other competitive case and bullet prep, so knowing runout values can only help.

cbrick

10-06-2014, 10:05 AM

No, I don't have a runout gauge. Not really a big deal to get one. It's a standard step in bench rest and other competitive case and bullet prep, so knowing runout values can only help.

Highly recommended. Spinning your loaded rounds under the dial indicator can be a real eye opener. If the bullet is canted in the case neck you can't really expect it to straighten itself out and enter the rifling straight. How it's launched is how it enters the bore, how it enters the bore has much to do with how it exits the muzzle.

Rick

EDIT to add: Previous posts on the Fed #210 I agree with, Powder Valley lists 210's in stock if you wish to try them.

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 10:20 AM

No, I don't have a runout gauge. Not really a big deal to get one. It's a standard step in bench rest and other competitive case and bullet prep, so knowing runout values can only help.

Here's a 45 2.1 trick: Put a piece of glass on your bench, kneel down so you can look across it edgewise, and roll your loaded rounds across it. You'll see the bullet and the case rim going up-down-up-down if they aren't concentric with the case body. Learn to look closely and you can see very miniscule runout.

Do you want all of us to post shooting results here, or just share info focusing on your particular effort? We do have the other thread for general contributions/ramblings to the project.

Gear

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 10:53 AM

Here's a 45 2.1 trick: Put a piece of glass on your bench, kneel down so you can look across it edgewise, and roll your loaded rounds across it. You'll see the bullet and the case rim going up-down-up-down if they aren't concentric with the case body. Learn to look closely and you can see very miniscule runout.

Do you want all of us to post shooting results here, or just share info focusing on your particular effort? We do have the other thread for general contributions/ramblings to the project.

Gear

Gear,
I'll be very happy to see yours and others' shooting results in this thread. That's why I started it.
And for everybody's edification, I wasn't around my computer when things evidently deteriorated, and I had no hand in shutting the tread down. That being said, I'm glad Run and others stepped in and got us back on track. I have tried to stay focused here, and I read and listen to each and every one of you and appreciate your input.

Good point on the "poor man's runout gauge".

Got a new batch of bullets cast up Saturday, and after a little aging they'll be ready to go. More to come.

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 11:14 AM

Sounds good. In response to Larry's last post above, I'll keep it strictly about the XCB here and not muddy things with results from other rifles. We already have a thread going on my AM 31-190X design for the XCB but if anything important crops up relating to that bullet during my shooting exercises I'll share that here, too. So far I haven't had much luck with the matched throat taper such as this one and the NOE bullet at anything past "normal" velocities (really, about 1800 fps regardless of twist), but I still feel there's something to be learned from continuing to try. You're doing better with the NOE than I have with the 190X.

Larry, would you mind sharing the pressure estimates generated from QL? I haven't taken a minute to dig up my chronograph numbers and load data, but if memory serves I was shooting either 44.5 or 45 grains of H-414 under the 182-ish .30 Sil, which you have and I believe you already have measured approximate bearing length. My rifle has six traditional grooves, is .300x.3075" bore/groove, 23.5" barrel length, and I was sizing .3103". The average velocity of the load right before the groups went from 5/8" to bumping over an inch was dancing all around 2400 fps. I didn't calculate SD.

Gear

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 12:34 PM

I also have QL. If nobody else has stepped forward by the time I get off work tonight (should be around 11 pm eastern, weather permitting) I'll pick up the laptop from my shop and try running some numbers. I've been using the 30-40 Krag as a comparison to the XCB in QL, it's been pretty close in velocities. Since I don't have any way to measure pressure you'll have to do your own interpretation of the pressure numbers.

Bullshop Junior

10-06-2014, 12:40 PM

What is a runoff gauge if I may ask?

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 12:44 PM

What is a runoff gauge if I may ask?

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/concentricity-gauges/sinclair-concentricity-gauge-prod37479.aspx

It's runout gauge

dragon813gt

10-06-2014, 12:46 PM

What is a runoff gauge if I may ask?

Search for "bullet comparator". There are a bunch of different tools on the market for measuring runout.

runfiverun

10-06-2014, 12:53 PM

Larry indicated to me that H-414 wasn't reaching peak pressure until the boolit was down the barrel.
about 9" airc.
this is a case where the run and bump might be helpful to keep things centered.

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 12:59 PM

Not sure if I follow you there R5R.

runfiverun

10-06-2014, 01:07 PM

detox

10-06-2014, 01:09 PM

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 01:23 PM

Larry indicated to me that H-414 wasn't reaching peak pressure until the boolit was down the barrel.
about 9" airc.
this is a case where the run and bump might be helpful to keep things centered.

That's where buffer can help in certain situations (not this one with a 17-1/2 degree shoulder) by giving the powder something to work against (controlled restriction) inside the case. By the time the buffer extrudes through the neck it has pushed the bullet fully into the throat and pressure is higher at that point than it otherwise would be, in effect moving the pressure curve's peak toward the ignition side of the graph. Buffer obviously also increases effective load density in any case shape and raises initial pressure that way, too. Double advantage is keeping the fire off of the bullet during engraving and putting a little "Charmin" behind it and making a cleaner, higher-pressure initial burn.

9" to peak burn with H414 sounds very good to me. Low initial pressure works very well with the "run and bump" rather than "jam and smack". It's neat to work a load out with just targets/chronograph and then run numbers to see how things are doing inside the gun when groups are small, or, really any time. Last time I was out shooting the XCB with company using the H414/.30 Sil load the comment "DANG that thing is LOUD" was made several times, this from a guy shooting full-house loads with 168 SMKs in a 22", ported .308. It kicks, too. I'm sure the muzzle pressure is very high. I'm not using buffer,,,,yet.

Gear

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 01:31 PM

Runout of .002 or less is very difficult to achieve with cast bullets (much easier with Jacketed bullets). I use my NECO gauge to measure runout of my cast loads and runout can vary from .001 to .015. My only solution to get all cases under .002 was to bend the case neck. Soft Remington brass works best or annealing your harder cases makes straitening easier. I know lots of prople are against bending the neck, but it is the only way I have learned to get consistant runout of less than .002.

With a straight chamber, modified FL sizer die (not bushing) with expander ball removed, RCBS cast bullet expander, and Forster seating die, I rarely get runout over .003". Rarely under .002", either.

How do you straighten your necks? I assume you sharpie a reference mark on the case, but what are you using to pull on the neck?

Gear

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 01:42 PM

I don't remember where I posted about manipulating the powder burn slightly by using the boolits engraving pressure to bump the time curve a little higher sooner, [but until after the boolit had entered the barrel] by backing off the oal some.
this is a good one to use to help get the powder burning more efficiently sooner giving it time to drop off muzzle pressure some.

Okay I get that. The only issue I see with that approach is where the rifle shoots more accurately with the bullet engraving the rifling lightly (like I'm finding out that mine does). I have Puff-Lon filler and will try that, but I'm having limited success with shortening the OAL.

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 02:22 PM

Bjornb

10-06-2014, 02:34 PM

I think that was the whole point with Tim's design of the NOE 165 XCB bullet. It shoots markedly better when given zero jump. I was seating it off 20/1000, but rifling contact seems to work better. At .310 sizing it's a snug fit, at .311 it gets pretty tight but I can still close the bolt.

MBTcustom

10-06-2014, 02:49 PM

So far in my experience with the 190X, that bullet Morse Taper Fit design does not tolerate much of a run at the throat, Bjorn. You need a different nose shape and/or some parallel freebore (like .308 standard) and really snug loaded neck clearance if you don't have good bullet-throat contact when chambering.

Gear
Gear, just asking an honest question here: did you use a throating reamer on your rifle?
The reason I ask is that if your 190X boolit matches the drawing on the Accurate molds website, then in all the rifles I have chambered with the XCB reamer would engrave that boolit on the nose first. In other words, the angle on the 190X is more acute than the angle on the XCB throat. In fact, the throat cutting section on the XCB reamer is not nearly that long.
I was under the impression that the angle on the boolit should be the same or slightly more obtuse? Or the same, but less of it so that it engages the middle of the lead back rather than the entire lead.
Thoughts?

Edit to add:
Here is the XCB truncated Accurate molds design that matches the other rifles I have reamed:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-160G-D.png
Here is the 190X that you have said matches your chamber:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-190X-D.png

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 03:15 PM

Other way 'round. My bullet has a slightly more abrupt taper than the actual throat measurement by design to compensate for hourglassing during casting at high mould temperatures for my preferred water-quenching process. Been through this with several moulds and I learned how to compensate in the design to achieve the end result I wanted. So actually I DO get a perfect match. You have seen pictures of the engraving, no?

Gear

MBTcustom

10-06-2014, 03:40 PM

detox

10-06-2014, 03:48 PM

With a straight chamber, modified FL sizer die (not bushing) with expander ball removed, RCBS cast bullet expander, and Forster seating die, I rarely get runout over .003". Rarely under .002", either.

How do you straighten your necks? I assume you sharpie a reference mark on the case, but what are you using to pull on the neck?

Gear

With case mounted in NECO gauge push downward on high side of indicator reading. The NECO also measures case wall runout very quickly.

detox

10-06-2014, 04:12 PM

It was my understanding that the 30XCB throat was designed to shoot both cast and jacketed accurately. So I can see why it has a short leade and steeper throat angle. The tighter neck clearance helps guide the bullet. But you guys already know this.

The steeper XCB throat will erode away and eventually match the 190X taper.

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 05:17 PM

OK, well I was wondering why you would avoid the NOE XCB design so much when Bjornb has proven it is able to be shot at 2600 fps with accuracy?
If you took a throating reamer to the perfect chamber I cut in your rifle, it would be totally understandable because the XCB boolit would no longer fit your rifle correctly, which is a shame, because I was very curious to see if you or Btroj would experience similar success as Bjornb.

Pm sent for clarification before responding.

With case mounted in NECO gauge push downward on high side of indicator reading. The NECO also measures case wall runout very quickly.

Thank you for that, I just learned something. I'll look into that for sure.

Gear

geargnasher

10-06-2014, 11:58 PM

Fast, easy, or accurate, kindly pick two. Bjorn and I are getting the same preliminary results at 2600+ using the same powder, but so far I can't do it with a perfectly-fitted bullet in my 12-twist, while he is in his 14-twist. I have to take a little different tack with the bullet alignment. I expect we'd both do better with a different alloy than either of us are using now. I'm shooting a bullet almost 25 grains heavier, too. Consider the weight you want when going super-slow with the twist.

Gear

Bjornb

10-07-2014, 12:59 AM

Give this a glance over while the article is Jacketed it does correlate to a degree.
Notice the Heavies in the 14 twist with "low" velocities

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/ballistics-heavy-bullets-in-113-twist.html

Sarge that's a very interesting article. Who'd have thunk........

btroj

10-07-2014, 12:09 PM

Got better results today with N540 today than I was getting with RE19. Pubs, bullets, size, and alloy all the same. The faster pressure spike seems to have helped.
I have not yet maxed out with RE19, not close yet.

I need to try a lower Sb alloy with the RE19 and repeat the shooting. I think my other alloy is too high in Sb for the slow pressure curve.

I got over 2700 with N540 bit pressure signs showed I was close to max. Groups got smaller, then larger, then smaller, then big. Last group was 48 gr with the 30 Sil cast from 5 pounds monotype to 50 pounds trance scrap- pretty close to a 3/1/96 alloy. Group for last load was slightly off paper but it ran in the 6 inch range.

I I will try and post some chrono data and groups later.

geargnasher

10-07-2014, 12:58 PM

Excellent, Btroj, looking forward to it.

SgtMike, if you go with the 12 twist you already know 2" @2600 is possible and repeatable for ten-shot groups with only preliminary testing, and we're a long way from finished yet. 5/8" doable at 2400. That energy you're wasting on the last 5% nagging feeling about the 13-whatever twist might be better directed at learning to shoot straight past 2400 with a 12 rather than handicapping yourself with bullet weight. Just sayin'.

Gear

detox

10-07-2014, 04:57 PM

Testing the 30XCB linotype bullet in my 1/12 twist Remington VS 308 @100yards

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8107_zps24d9ed36.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8107_zps24d9ed36.jpg.html)

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg.html)

detox

10-07-2014, 05:49 PM

I will shoot for a velocity of 2600-2700fps next time out and post results. I really like this bullet.

btroj

10-07-2014, 10:20 PM

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/imagejpg1_zpsfad45595.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/imagejpg1_zpsfad45595.jpg.html)

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/imagejpg1_zps8955105f.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/imagejpg1_zps8955105f.jpg.html)

This is my setup for chronograph work. I need to get the front rest a bit higher, will take a hunk of 2x12 next time I go to the range.

This is a pretty typical group so far. Three together and a couple out. I think I am having gas check seating issues, it isn't easy to get the, on square. I need a punch to flair them a bit, thanks Rick!

The load was a 30 Sil, 44 gr of N540, Felix lube, Rem 9 1/2 primer. Case is reformmed Hornady brass. Bullet was cast from 5 # monotype with 50 # range scrap, roughly 3/1/06. Water dropped they run 25 BHn. They were seated to have minimal nose contact with the lands. Load chronographs at 2602 fps.

I feel like the gun wants to shoot but something is fighting me. I think it is a gas check seating issue but am not totally sure.

Bjornb

10-07-2014, 11:28 PM

Very familiar stuff there. Did you try any lower charges to see if you could get a controlled group? I have seen with several of my workups that the group starts spreading out only when pressure/spin gets too great. You are working with different components that what I'm using so it's difficult to draw exact parallels.
Right now I'm working on my bullet quality; some of the bullets I thought were good quality were in reality very marginal. I got me a Rowell ladle that's being filed and fine-tuned right now, and have also drilled out the spout of my Lee bottom pour from 1/16 to 3/32. I just did this today and I'll try casting with it tomorrow. The goal is to get a stronger stream of alloy into the mould, and faster.
I'll then be able to see which method produces the best bullets.

Your gun definitely wants to shoot. She told me so herself!!

btroj

10-08-2014, 01:32 AM

cbrick

10-08-2014, 06:40 AM

I'll second giving Fed 210 a try. A couple of days ago Powder Valley had them in stock.

Rick

cbrick

10-08-2014, 07:52 AM

I will try some Fed 210 mag as that is what I have. I have no BR2, don't know if I can find them around here. The Rem are what I could find during the "scare" so,I'm using what I got? I have some Win to try too.

Brad, Sgt. suggested 210m.

Federal 210m is Federal's standard large rifle match primer.

215 is Federal's Magnum large rifle primer.

Rick

btroj

10-08-2014, 08:00 AM

Yeah, I know. I thought of that this morning in the shower.

I have some 215M, the match, magnum primers. I see a trip to the gun shop this weekend, I should be able to find 1000 210s pretty easy. The CCI BR2 is a harder one to find locally.

cbrick

10-08-2014, 08:09 AM

What was the standard deviation of your load with the two fliers?

Rick

geargnasher

10-08-2014, 10:52 AM

Looks a whole lot like some of my groups with the .30 Sil, the .2875" gas check shank tapering up to .280, even with a low-antimony alloy, makes seating Hornady checks a buggar. That's what I blame the dispersion on. I got better results after grinding a punch to open them up, and still better results after chucking them in a drill and turning the shank down with a file. Did I mention I detest working with that mould, and sent two of them down the road? They sure do shoot, though, if you get past the difficulties, cast them of the appropriate alloy, and find the right powder charge.

Gear

HangFireW8

10-08-2014, 11:12 AM

Search for "bullet comparator". There are a bunch of different tools on the market for measuring runout.

That search will also return devices that measure cartridge length based on an engagement point on the ogive.

For runout I recommend the RCBS Case Master. The price is right and it does other jobs.

Anyone pursuing accuracy without managing runout is pissing in the wind. You may get some good groups but you'll also get unexplained flyers. Now you have an explanation.

I cull my eccentric cases and load them stiff. If the chamber is cut well, pressure will straighten them out.

The biggest ways to introduce neck eccentricities is sizing with expander balls, and the step on the Lyman M die.

geargnasher

10-08-2014, 12:16 PM

+1000, HF.

Gear

btroj

10-08-2014, 03:07 PM

Gear, I agree on the checks being a buggar to get on square with that mould. I think a punch will make a big difference.

cbrick

10-08-2014, 05:32 PM

Gear, I agree on the checks being a buggar to get on square with that mould. I think a punch will make a big difference.

I agree completely with getting the checks properly seated flat/flush with the bullet base but also run your loaded rounds through a concentricity gauge. I don't remember if it was talked about in this thread or the other one but when you see the runout of some the rounds you thought were perfect it's a real eye opener. A good concentricity gauge is a bit expensive but in my book worth every dime.

Rick

btroj

10-08-2014, 06:13 PM

I have a as flair concentricity guage. It told me my bushing was too snug in the die and needed cleaning.
I want to keep looking for potential runout issues. The seater is my next "victim" even though it is a Forster BR micrometer seater.

I keep seeing people say the pressure in the barrel will square up the checks but I just don't buy it. If this was true why do we get better groups when we focus on getting checks on square?

geargnasher

10-08-2014, 08:30 PM

The checks will for sure seat under pressure, the concern is what sort of mangling of the shank occurs during that process.

Gear

cbrick

10-08-2014, 08:36 PM

The checks will for sure seat under pressure, the concern is what sort of mangling of the shank occurs during that process. Gear

Or another way to look at it . . . When the pressure pushes the check against the bullet base what about the sides of the check digging into the shank? Will that leave the edge of the cup slightly raised? On one side?

I would much rather have them seated properly when I load them into the case as opposed to hoping the pressure does it correctly (or not) for me.

Rick

btroj

10-08-2014, 10:36 PM

Got a usable punch, of a sort, made tonight. Had a box of Barnes 577 monolithic solids kicking around. A few strokes with a file to take the end off the nose and voila, a punch that opens 30 cal checks just fine.
I need to get the whole system down but this is much better than the checks as purchased. They just go on nice and square.

MBTcustom

10-08-2014, 11:36 PM

btroj

10-09-2014, 06:56 AM

That is just the 100 yards range. There is also a 300 yards and a 600 yard range. We also have a 50 yard range and 6 separate pistol bays with berms between them.

It is a great place to shoot. Most weekday mornings I have at most 2 others shooting with me on a range that can handle 30 or more. All that for 120 bucks a year, if I remember correctly. Only 30 minutes from home too.

cbrick

10-09-2014, 10:13 AM

So Brad, from post #145 regarding primers . . .

What was the standard deviation of your load with the two fliers? Rick

And???

Rick

btroj

10-09-2014, 02:54 PM

I need to go and look and get back to you

detox

10-09-2014, 07:20 PM

Turning necks and neck sizing only has helped me. Wolf LR primers work well also. I also use strait Linotype from a bottom pour pot to get easy perfect bullets. Jam your bullet into lands when chambering.

I use Hornaday gas checks and fit is snug, but no need to flair. I size bullets and seat gas check dry nose first in my Lubramatic and RCBS 165 Sil nose punch. This hollow nose punch makes bases of bullets edges more square when seating check.

Try using strait monotype

Bjornb

10-09-2014, 08:12 PM

Just a short range report; wanted to expand on the experience with WW-760 (H-414) and IMR4831.
I sent several of my bullets to Larry Gibson last week, he checked them out visually and gave me a bunch of feedback. He also shot several; it's pretty clear that I have a ways to go in the casting department. Larry's bullets shot consistently better than mine, so last Saturday I did some casting and tried to incorporate some of the advice. Nothing new and earth-shattering, just paying attention to detail. I believe the batch I cast up came out better.

One of the issues brought up by Larry was the sizing of the bullets. I've been crimping on the gas checks and sizing in one operation on my Lyman 4500. Close-up pictures of the bullet sides showed that the H&I die was sizing the bullets very unevenly. I therefore started to seat the gas checks in the Lyman with the GC seater,
then, after spraying the bullets with a little case lube, run them through a Lee push-through sizer. Then finally lube them in the Lyman using a .311 die, which won't size the bullets.

I had some issues with the case necks. In order for the cartridge to chamber I had to size down to .309 with the non-neck-turned Norma cases formed from 7x57 brass. This produced a loaded cartridge neck of .3375 give or take, in a chamber that is cut with a .337 reamer but which Goodsteel advises ends up at .338. In other words, a perfect slip-fit. Slight pressure is needed to close the bolt, but there is no problem removing a loaded round. I loaded the bullets with the loosest neck tension that would allow chambering.

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. There's much room for improvement.
118707118708118709
118711118713

The most interesting shooting of the day were my 3 "warm-up" shots loaded up with 51 grains of Milsurp WC-867 No chronograph reading was taken, but I'll be playing a little more with this powder:
118714

btroj

10-09-2014, 08:37 PM

Why cast a great bullet just to ruin it by sizing?
Mine are currently being sized in Lee push thru sizers. I need to get the right size dies for the Star and use it.
I do plan to start using the 313 die in the Star to seat checks, then hand lube, then run thru the Lee sizer.

Bjorn, it is the little things that will make the difference. I too need to work on bullet quality.

MBTcustom

10-09-2014, 08:55 PM

We all need to work on boolit quality. I'm still learning more every year about what I am capable of dropping from my molds. Both good (and somtimes) really really bad. I made my first run at copper enhanced alloy a few weeks ago and learned all kinds of things that were like "huh. Didn't expect to see that. Bummer." Oh well.

Looking good Bjornb. No matter what size the groups are, your careful recording of your reloading practices, along with your targets, serve as a huge learning tool for the rest of us. Whether you shoot well or not, it's all part of the foundation of shooting HV with cast in your rifle.

taco650

10-09-2014, 10:35 PM

btroj

10-09-2014, 10:45 PM

What was the standard deviation of your load with the two fliers?

Rick

Std dev was 12, avg velocity was 2602 fps. Range over 5 shots was 2590 to 2621.

I can't tell you the shot order.

Looking at SD alone the two best targets also has the lowest SD. I don't think that means a ton but it does show that good loads are consistent. I will always go off group size first but SD does have some level of importance.

I shot loads from 42 to 45.5 gr of N540. Charge was increased in .5 gr increments.

SD, in order, was 25.9, 29.6, 11.9, 21, 12, 20.6, 17.5, and 45.6

The 45.6 was the worst group by far. What is interesting is the fact the SD dropped, leveled off, then rose.

HangFireW8

10-10-2014, 09:55 AM

Some may disagree, but chasing really tight SD's are only useful for really long range shooting.

I do track SD's, just to make sure a load is not falling apart at the edges, and of course for potential long range loads... but for cast bullet load development, that comes much later, after the basics are sorted out.

Also +2 on working on better boolits. It really hurts to remelt a large batch of "almost perfect" boolits, especially when you're not even sure how to improve the next batch. But, it must be done.

geargnasher

10-10-2014, 10:02 AM

dtknowles

10-10-2014, 10:51 AM

Bjornb

10-10-2014, 12:16 PM

Bjorn, with the 7mm brass I thought your necks were only .0125"? With .309" bullets that should give you .004" total loaded chamber neck clearance in a .338" neck, but you say your loaded necks measure .3375", or 5/10 total clearance? I am confused.

I'm about ready to grab some Lapua 7mm Mauser brass and do what you did, but I need .313" final neck thickness with .3103" bullets for my .3374" chamber neck to get me down around a thousandth total clearance.

Gear

I went back and did a mental review of my loading procedure. I believe I left the .311 spud in the custom neck expander from Tim (the bullets seemed a little loose in the necks). That may explain why I got fat loaded necks that should really have been thinner.
I'm off to work for the rest of the day; will be loading up Larry's bullets in the morning. I'll post here if I really made the error. Not sure if it did much to affect the accuracy; neck tension is a whole chapter unto itself. Thanks for pointing it out.

geargnasher

10-10-2014, 01:22 PM

Just reviewing your math. Thinking you made a math error and had the decimal in the wrong place but I see now that it is a typo. .313 should be .013

Tim

Not a math error, just punched the wrong key. Bjorn's loaded necks should come out at .334" or so unless his brass is actually thicker than I thought he said it was. That's a lot of slop a 24-2600 fps.

Gear

cbrick

10-10-2014, 01:48 PM

Std dev was 12, avg velocity was 2602 fps. Range over 5 shots was 2590 to 2621.

I can't tell you the shot order.

Looking at SD alone the two best targets also has the lowest SD. I don't think that means a ton but it does show that good loads are consistent. I will always go off group size first but SD does have some level of importance.

I shot loads from 42 to 45.5 gr of N540. Charge was increased in .5 gr increments.

SD, in order, was 25.9, 29.6, 11.9, 21, 12, 20.6, 17.5, and 45.6

The 45.6 was the worst group by far. What is interesting is the fact the SD dropped, leveled off, then rose.

Of course group size is the final arbiter but that should read . . . Repeatable group size. One good group means diddly.

Track your groups with both S.D. and E.S. and see if they don't agree. Many times when a given powder/bullet in a given firearm starts to increase the S.D., E.S as the charge is increased groups also open up. I look at that as passing the balance the combination works best at. Almost always this will be before max load from strictly a pressure measurement. Never have I found the max load to be the most accurate load.

Also try the primer change that was discussed and see what groups look like and don't forget the run-out gauge.

Rick

dtknowles

10-10-2014, 03:49 PM

Not a math error, just punched the wrong key. Bjorn's loaded necks should come out at .334" or so unless his brass is actually thicker than I thought he said it was. That's a lot of slop a 24-2600 fps.

Gear

Yeah, I figured out your math was right but you had a typo. I thought that Bjorn said that maybe his neck id was larger than the bullet od, loose bullets, that was why the discrepancy. As an aside how fine a tolerance do you get on neck thickness, I don't have a ball mike so I am not getting good measurements.

Tim

Doc Highwall

10-10-2014, 06:40 PM

Tim, measure a loaded round then subtract the bullet diameter, and the figure that is left divide by two and that will be your wall thickness.

geargnasher

10-10-2014, 09:04 PM

Tim, measure a loaded round then subtract the bullet diameter, and the figure that is left divide by two and that will be your wall thickness.

I think this is probably the best way. I keep a pile of scrap cases handy when setting up my neck turning device so I can seat a bullet and check them. After all, it's the final loaded dimension that really matters. Expanding the necks too much shouldn't significantly increase loaded neck diameter, if it does, then the tighter brass was squishing the bullets somewhat or the necks are expanded to the point that a lube film is all that's holding the bullet in there. Lube can take up a thousandth or so if your neck tension is under a thousandth interference fit with the bullet.

Gear

dtknowles

10-10-2014, 09:31 PM

Tim, measure a loaded round then subtract the bullet diameter, and the figure that is left divide by two and that will be your wall thickness.

Thanks, good idea. It would be close enough for me. It will not tell me how uniform my turning is and if I use lead bullets they could be swaged down but not much if at all unless I size the brass too small.

Tim

dtknowles

10-10-2014, 09:34 PM

I think this is probably the best way. I keep a pile of scrap cases handy when setting up my neck turning device so I can seat a bullet and check them. After all, it's the final loaded dimension that really matters. Expanding the necks too much shouldn't significantly increase loaded neck diameter, if it does, then the tighter brass was squishing the bullets somewhat or the necks are expanded to the point that a lube film is all that's holding the bullet in there. Lube can take up a thousandth or so if your neck tension is under a thousandth interference fit with the bullet.

Gear

I do want a ball mike and will get one and a run-out gage. I am often slow about buying more stuff. I have too much stuff.

Tim

RED333

10-10-2014, 09:37 PM

I do want a ball mike and will get one and a run-out gage. I am often slow about buying more stuff. I have too much stuff.

Tim
Aint that like "to much fun"?

geargnasher

10-10-2014, 10:09 PM

I have TMS, it is chronic and can be debilitating. Like when you spend most of your free time and money trying to build roofs and walls around it all before it ruins.

Gear

dtknowles

10-10-2014, 11:56 PM

Aint that like "to much fun"?

Too much stuff is not at all like to much fun, for me. I find possessions somewhat of a burden. I don't like having too much and I hate getting rid of stuff. I hate to throw good stuff away and I got tired of advertising, selling, boxing, shipping blah, blah, blah. Never had a yard sale don't like having people over to go thru my stuff I don't want. I have half my shop full of RC model airplane stuff including some pretty cool planes that are just getting in my way. I have Model rockets, motors, launch pads, controls. I have a Heath Kit Oscilloscope, a rock tumbler, the list goes on and on. I am way over wanting more stuff. I have boxes and boxes of brass that I will probably never use, I have sold tens of thousands of cases and it just was not worth the effort but I can't bring myself to just take them to the salvage yard. I had a couple hundred vintage matchbox cars, sold them on ebay for good money but still the effort was not justified by the reward. I make better money working and I like my job better than selling things online.

Tim

runfiverun

10-11-2014, 09:51 PM

You just need more room

Brad id revisit those loads that flattened out for you and work that node for a while
try a few things right there until you bend it over a little
that might seem a little boring but its a good starting point to try
new things with

btroj

10-11-2014, 10:06 PM

Run, that is what I'm thinking of. Work in that area with different primers and seating depths. Might try a different alloy too.

Now if I could find the time.

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 01:19 AM

Well, I just spent 2-1/2 hours grinding a piece of 5/8" threaded rod into a new expander for the XCB, it threads into the top of a Lee universal expander die body. In order to expand the cut brass enough to get on the turning mandrel I had to have something that was longer than the RCBS expander spuds (and larger than any I had) to knock out the donut at the base of the neck and actually force the brass to .307" i.d. So now I have an expander that's 3/4" long and .312" diameter, FINALLY, and also a matching neck turning mandrel.

If brass were easier to make properly I'd be doing a lot more shooting.

Gear

Bjornb

10-12-2014, 05:47 AM

Not having the tools or skills to make what you made I found this:
118900
This neck turning tool has a carbide cutting mandrel that removes the donut while doing double duty as mandrel for the outside neck cutter.
I could never get my Forster mini-lathe set up correctly for neck turning but this tool made the job fairly easy.

http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/with-carbide-cutting-pilot-and-tool-steel-cutter/micro-adjustable-neck-turner-with-carbide-cutting-pilot_power-adapter_and-shell-holder.html

cbrick

10-12-2014, 09:02 AM

btroj

10-12-2014, 09:42 AM

Dammit Rick, you know putting photos of that online only leads to pangs of jealousy.

I do hope I'm in your will, I can assure you I will treat it with love and affection and always think of you when usi it. Honest.http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/facebook/angel.png (http://www.sherv.net/angel-emoticon-335.html)

HangFireW8

10-12-2014, 10:46 AM

The Deadly Donut of Death is only something that those with tight neck chambers and/or thick brass need to eliminate. For the rest it serves as a self-centering mechanism.

RED333

10-12-2014, 11:19 AM

As I am new to this, just what is the "donut" yall speak of?

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 12:42 PM

You need to build one of these. Forster has two types of mandrel, one for length trimming and one for outside neck turning. The one for outside turning is longer than the neck and will do the same thing with the donut. They will also make one the diameter you need if a stock one isn't right.

118911

That's a really slick setup, Rick, but what a person really needs for this job is a mini-lathe with a center support and a boring bar. Here's the issue with making XCB brass from '06 cases:

First, I FL size the cleaned, fired '06 brass and decap it. Then clean it again, lube it, and whang it though the XCB die, twice, after rotating 180 degrees. Now the neck gets cut off and lightly deburred (I use a saw for this). Ok, now I have a neck that's funnel-shaped, about .307" at the mouth and .303" at the neck base. Can't turn it because it won't fit the mandrel and is tapered. So, next step is rod it out with the .312" expander spud, which leaves the inside .312 at the mouth and .310 or so at the neck base. Still too much taper, so I ream the inside with a .311" reamer and partial size the mouth back down to .311" or so. The inside isn't perfectly parallel, but it's close. Then I outside turn on a .311 turning mandrel to clean up the neck and cut as much taper off of it as I can. Trim to length at the same time in the Forster setup. I rotate the case 180 and neck turn again. Then I remove the case, FL size again in the XCB die, which with .0013" necks makes the inside .307 at the base and .309" at the mouth and .335" on the outside, still tapered but as good as I can get. Unfortunately, this isn't good enough, as there's almost no neck tension on the bullet at the front and it's a jam fit at the rear, and there's THREE THOUSANDTHS slop between loaded neck and chamber at the case mouth. No wonder it won't shoot much under 2" at 2600 fps.

Until I can figure out how to make tight, parallel necks, this is all an exercise in futility.

Bjorn, I do like that tool you have, it appears that it would solve the issues I'm having. BUT, for the cost, I could just buy an '06 reamer with a .337" x .335" tapered neck, .309" throat entrance, 2-degree-per-side included angle to the throat, .050" freebore, ream this puppy out, and call it a day. Actually, I think that's what I'm going to do, as I am wholeheartedly disgusted with the virtual impossibility of making a quality case for this gun. I have about 60 hours involved in making brass and have 20 usable cases that are now in dire need of an anneal.

Gear

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 12:59 PM

As I am new to this, just what is the "donut" yall speak of?

The "dreaded donut" is the result of a wave of brass flowing from the body up through the shoulder and cresting at the base of the neck from multiple firings and neck sizings in a tight chamber. Brass flows forward from the body and through sizing, rearward down the neck. This results in the gradual accumulation of a ring of metal on the inside of the neck, at the neck-shoulder junction. This must be reamed out periodically, but is an indication of wall thinning of the brass and so after one reaming the brass should be discarded.

What we're talking about here is a similar effect, but caused by the case forming process instead. The shoulder area is thicker than the neck of the parent case, and when resizing and pushing the shoulder back over a quarter inch in a parallel-necked die, the excess brass is forced to the inside, creating an overly-thick neck at the base and a hard "donut" at the neck base. This won't expand out completely due to brass spring and the geometry of the cone-tube intersection of neck and shoulder, which resists expansion. My solution is to ream it out from the inside.

Another thing that would work, but would require sacrificing yet another '06 die and four-six more hours of cutting and honing work, would be to make a special case-forming die that had a pretty sharply tapered, oversized neck that would leave the inside of the reformed case neck parallel. Then, it could be touched-up with an expander to fit the Forster turning mandrel and the metal cut off from the outside. MIGHT work, but would require a ton of fiddling.

I'm sure a lot of people are laughing and shaking their heads in disbelief that a simple reform of an '06 case is this difficult, but those who haven't done it have no clue how tough this is to get right. I've made hundreds of Swedish Mauser brass from .270 cases and never had such issues, but then again that one has three thousandths total taper to the relatively short case neck and I tapered my forming die and resizing die to comply.

Gear

dtknowles

10-12-2014, 02:15 PM

I can sympathize with the dislike of the effort to prep quality benchrest brass.

The last time I made 6mm PPC brass I did not remove the donut. Is this a problem, my bullets don't seat deep enough to get near the donut?

Tim

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 02:42 PM

I just got through lapping a taper into the XCB form die neck, now I have other problems. Still having to ream the back half of the neck and size/turn/size/turn several times, still can't get rid of the neck taper by reaming and turning. The only way I can see this working without lathing the cases is to modify a .338-'06 die to knock the shoulder back and then size the neck in a severely tapered neck bushing die that's customized for the particular lot of brass in use. Then I still think it would take a lathe and a very tight, fixed mandrel inside the neck to cut the outside parallel with the inside.

Bjorn and Co., I wish you guys luck with yours but I'm throwing in the towel and soon will be rejoining you all in this quest with a tight-necked .30-'06.

Gear

btroj

10-12-2014, 03:24 PM

I just brought home 1 K each BR4 and Fed 210 primers. No Fed 210 Match to be found but even the standard gives me another primer to try. I also picked up 2# of H414 to give it a shot.

cbrick

10-12-2014, 03:31 PM

Be interesting to test any difference between standard and match primers. I tested this several years ago with both revolver and single shots and the only difference I could detect was how fast my wallet was emptied. I found no difference in chrono readings or groups.

Rick

btroj

10-12-2014, 03:41 PM

My wallet doesn't like paying more than I have too for primers. I paid way more than I like to for all these.

detox

10-12-2014, 06:01 PM

I think you should constipate on bullet fit, perfect neck clearance and powders before worrying about primers. I have had verygood results using n140 and Varget powder. Hard Linotype bullet jammed into rifling when chambered works best also.

BTW Wolf LR primers seemed to have worked a tad better than the Remington 9 1/2 in my 308.

RED333

10-12-2014, 06:22 PM

Thanks for the info on the donut, the only case I make is 223 to 300 BK, I have a bunch store bought so
not a worry just now. Will keep an eye on my 7mm cases.

btroj

10-12-2014, 07:01 PM

Detox, I plan to never constipate on bullets. I may concentrate but constipate? Ouch.

Right now primers are a short side trip on the overall journey. Heck, I need to get ready for deer season first.

Hannibal

10-12-2014, 08:45 PM

The "dreaded donut" is the result of a wave of brass flowing from the body up through the shoulder and cresting at the base of the neck from multiple firings and neck sizings in a tight chamber. Brass flows forward from the body and through sizing, rearward down the neck. This results in the gradual accumulation of a ring of metal on the inside of the neck, at the neck-shoulder junction. This must be reamed out periodically, but is an indication of wall thinning of the brass and so after one reaming the brass should be discarded.

What we're talking about here is a similar effect, but caused by the case forming process instead. The shoulder area is thicker than the neck of the parent case, and when resizing and pushing the shoulder back over a quarter inch in a parallel-necked die, the excess brass is forced to the inside, creating an overly-thick neck at the base and a hard "donut" at the neck base. This won't expand out completely due to brass spring and the geometry of the cone-tube intersection of neck and shoulder, which resists expansion. My solution is to ream it out from the inside.

Another thing that would work, but would require sacrificing yet another '06 die and four-six more hours of cutting and honing work, would be to make a special case-forming die that had a pretty sharply tapered, oversized neck that would leave the inside of the reformed case neck parallel. Then, it could be touched-up with an expander to fit the Forster turning mandrel and the metal cut off from the outside. MIGHT work, but would require a ton of fiddling.

I'm sure a lot of people are laughing and shaking their heads in disbelief that a simple reform of an '06 case is this difficult, but those who haven't done it have no clue how tough this is to get right. I've made hundreds of Swedish Mauser brass from .270 cases and never had such issues, but then again that one has three thousandths total taper to the relatively short case neck and I tapered my forming die and resizing die to comply.

Gear

I can only speak for myself, but I can only assure you that I am not laughing. only trying to digest the steps involved. Please, carry on. this is gold to those whom choose to contemplate it.

cbrick

10-12-2014, 09:16 PM

Thinking out loud and I don't really know but . . . :roll:

Is the 270 Winchester any thinner in the case body than the 06? If it is could your brass be formed with 270?

Rick

HangFireW8

10-12-2014, 09:35 PM

Until I can figure out how to make tight, parallel necks, this is all an exercise in futility.

Gear,

Fully support the entire length of the neck with a boolit-width smooth pin and then turn the outside.

HF

cbrick

10-12-2014, 09:45 PM

Gear,

Fully support the entire length of the neck with a boolit-width smooth pin and then turn the outside. HF

I suggested that by using the Forster outside nk turning mandrel, Gear has a Forster. The idea didn't seem to go over too well though.

Rick

dtknowles

10-12-2014, 10:00 PM

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 10:01 PM

I have a Forster setup and seven .30-ish caliber mandrels. Even have a tapered one. The problem is being able to make the brass parallel on the inside so it can even be installed on the apparatus for outside turning. I modified my form die even more a little whild ago by putting a very wide taper on the neck with a tapered punch body and lapping compound, and now I can get the inside of the neck down to about a thousandth taper when forming the brass, which is fine considering the bullet I'm using only goes about 2/3 into the neck. I am now able to fit this thing snugly on a .308" mandrel and cut away the outside taper to make the case .335", or about .0135" thick at the necks. They almost clean up, almost. This is my setup for .3095" bullets which seemed to work the best so far. The inside of the necks are a little washboarded, but not too bad. Might sand them. Or I might use 8mm Mauser brass, or, more likely, I'll do what I said I was going to in the last post. I can buy a chambering reamer for what 100 cases and two new neck sizing bushings will cost me.

Gear

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 10:05 PM

So I guess I don't know what he is doing. I thought he was outside neck turning. I take fireformed brass and neck size to match the pilot on my Lyman tool. I turn to desired thickness, takes two passes otherwise I lose a few. This does leave me with the dreaded donut but my necks are all parallel inside and out. I chuck the brass in my cordless drill and spin it and polish the necks with scotchbrite to lighten up the tool marks.

Nobody answered whether it is a problem if I leave the donut.

Tim

I don't know about the donut, if you aren't seating that deep, then I don't see it as much of a problem. What I want to know is how you get any kind of quality, uniform turn on your necks if there is a donut present? My mandrel won't pass the donut, and if I use a mandrel that is small enough, it's loosey/goosey to the tune of about two thousandths on the rest of the neck, which makes a lousy cut and very unpredictable neck thickness. The formed necks have a very significant thickness difference between mouth and base, it is not as simple as "neck size to match the pilot" because the turning pilot won't FIT INSIDE, or if I get one that will, it goes in just a little way and sticks hard in the neck. Also, how do you fireform the brass? If I size mine enough before turning to get in the chamber, I can only chamber a .303" bullet. I assume you're using the 3 grain Bullseye/TP wad trick?

Gear

btroj

10-12-2014, 10:13 PM

Ok, my brass formng is similar but a bit different.

I run a lubed case into my redding bushing die with no bushing. This just shoves the shoulder back. I then rough trim with a saw. I then run an expander thru the neck to round it out. Cases are then trimmed on my Wilson trimmer, nice because it doesn't use a pilot in the neck so neck dimensions don't matter. Cases are then demurred in and put. I then resize ina Redding die with a .333 bushing. This makes the entires exterior of the neck .333, except a tiny bit at the shoulder/neck junction, the bushing just don't reach that area. I then use my Sinlcair expander designed to make inside neck dimension the right size for use with their neck turner. I neck turn and probably go too far into the shoulder. Cases are then resized with the .333 bushing, demurred again, and cleaned.
I am finding no signs of a donut at all. I think that by sizing the necks smaller then reopening them with a long expander I move the humps and taper to the outside of the neck where they are removed by turning.

geargnasher

10-12-2014, 10:31 PM

Thinking out loud and I don't really know but . . . :roll:

Is the 270 Winchester any thinner in the case body than the 06? If it is could your brass be formed with 270?

Rick

The problem with .270 brass is the end of the neck doesn't turn out thick enough, there's always a bad groove about 1/16" back from the case mouth where the original neck-shoulder junction was.

Gear,

Fully support the entire length of the neck with a boolit-width smooth pin and then turn the outside.

HF

If I had a lathe I would do just that. I tried using a Lee case trimmer pilot (.303" diameter) inside the neck when forming, it wasn't quite large enough to work. If I had just exactly the right diameter rod and the exact taper to the forming die neck, I could literally swage the case neck onto the mandrel, then pull out the mandrel, and outside neck-turn per normal routine.

I suggested that by using the Forster outside nk turning mandrel, Gear has a Forster. The idea didn't seem to go over too well though.

Rick

It's a fine idea, but it doesn't work when forming cases from factory '06 brass. The shoulder is thick, like around .015", and normal resizing practices push all that metal to the inside, making the inside of the neck tapered pretty drastically, and a parallel neck turning mandrel simply will not work. Expanding the inside of the neck with a parallel expander should take care of that, right? Well, due to springback of the lower part of the neck and shoulder, it doesn't. Best I can do with an expander is get it down to .002-3" taper on the inside, still way too much to turn. I messed around with expanding, then going back and resizing the front part of the neck down to make the inside as parallel as possible, THEN neck turning, but it's not that great.

I've never had so much trouble forming cases before, and I guess I'm the only one, though I've made brass for this XCB out of every case known to man that is even close, including a variety of brands of a few. The only cases that come close to working like they should are the 8mm and 7mm Mauser cases. The 7mm is too short and there's not much thickness to work with, and the 8mm has an abrupt shoulder that takes a few trips between the form die and expander to iron out. Using the tapered form die worked pretty well with the 8mm Mauser brass, if I continue this that will be the way I will probably go.

Bjorn's neck turner combo with inside reamer and the correct expander mandrel from K&M seemed to be working for him, so there's another option. I'd like to find several solutions to this for all the XCB people out there because if we can't make brass from cheap and widely-available '06 brass, it really defeats one of the major advantages of this wildcat.

Gear

btroj

10-12-2014, 10:35 PM

HangFireW8

10-12-2014, 10:35 PM

First full pressure fireforming after a mandrel supported cut will get you to parallel, assuming your chamber is parallel. All you are seeing now is the shoulder pulling up on the neck.

btroj

10-12-2014, 10:54 PM

My understanding has always been that unless you use a full diamter portion of bullet under the donut it isn't an issue at all.

What is the donut? An area of thicker brass at the base of the neck, nothing more. Don't seat bullets that deep? Then no longer an issue really.

The donut is feared as it can make a loaded rounded overly tight because the neck is thicker and when forced into a tight necked chamber it hold the bullet tightly. This can increase pressure and give widely varying neck tension on chambered rounds.

I may may check on my necks by sizing smaller than normal, re-expanding, and seeing if a repeat neck turning cut removes anything.

MBTcustom

10-12-2014, 10:57 PM

Ok, so spring back is causing trouble. So anneal the necks before turning. That reduces the spring back and should give more parallel necks. Yes, it takes a few rounds to harden the necks back up but it would reduce some of the trouble.

This is what I do. Also, I've found that not all cases produce the donut.
That said, If you look reeeeeeaaaaaaal close at the K&M turner that Bjornb posted, you will notice that the mandrel cut's the donut off the inside as it turns the inside.
Personally, I have rigged up my milling machine to turn the necks with a massive 3" diameter tool head using a Forster base to hold the brass. The mandrel is what I would call a press fit in the casemouth, and pretty much bumps about half the donut to the outside to be sliced off by the cutter. After that, I ream the inside with a chucking reamer of the appropriate size (of course, this also takes pressure under alignment, and a steady feedrate from my perfectly tuned DeWalt cordless drill). After this, the brass was foreformed (for fireforming, it's not really necessary to use the full diameter boolits. Is it?) . Then I put the brass back in the mill and gently turn off .0004 at 600 RPM. Load up with the .3095-.310 boolits and life is copacetic.
This has produced very parallel necks for me.

Of course, this may not be worth beans. After all, I have had very little time to actually shoot and run my own tests (especially at this time of year) but if you're wanting to know how to make parallel necks, that's how I have done it, and it seemed to work well with my brass.

tomme boy

10-12-2014, 11:08 PM

Remington 8mm brass is really thin compared to others. I don't know if that will matter or not Gear???

Doc Highwall

10-12-2014, 11:35 PM

Bjornb

10-12-2014, 11:50 PM

The donut is caused by not cutting into the shoulder of the case when neck turning. The small step that you leave at the end where the case neck meets the shoulder when the case is fired gets reformed on the inside of the neck when fired.

I use the 21st Century neck turner that has the cutters with an angle on them that matches the case so you can cut slightly into the shoulder preventing the donut. Take a look at the third picture down and look at the case on the left and you will see where it cut slightly into the case shoulder.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/neck-turning-lathe-from-21st-century/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS
.........is specified on the K&M website. They specifically instructs users of their neck turning tool to cut into the shoulder about 1/16", for the exact reason Doc is explaining here. I know I sound like a commercial here, but this tool took all the guesswork out of neck turning and made it easy.
Otherwise when I made my first 220 pieces of brass from 30-06 cases (W-W), I pretty much followed the exact steps btroj is describing above. It took me 2 afternoons to make 220 cases.

dtknowles

10-13-2014, 12:34 AM

I don't know about the donut, if you aren't seating that deep, then I don't see it as much of a problem. What I want to know is how you get any kind of quality, uniform turn on your necks if there is a donut present? My mandrel won't pass the donut, and if I use a mandrel that is small enough, it's loosey/goosey to the tune of about two thousandths on the rest of the neck, which makes a lousy cut and very unpredictable neck thickness. The formed necks have a very significant thickness difference between mouth and base, it is not as simple as "neck size to match the pilot" because the turning pilot won't FIT INSIDE, or if I get one that will, it goes in just a little way and sticks hard in the neck. Also, how do you fireform the brass? If I size mine enough before turning to get in the chamber, I can only chamber a .303" bullet. I assume you're using the 3 grain Bullseye/TP wad trick?

Gear

Gear

I run the cases thru the form die, I fireform with a small charge of pistol powder and ground corncob topped with wax in my rifles chamber. Then I run them on a expander bushing that matches my neck turn pilot, I turn the necks in two stages. I then chuck them in a drill and while they are turning I polish the outside of the necks with scotchbrite and I polish the inside of the necks with scotchbrite on a brush. Since this is for 6mm PPC brass (I am going to do 30BR with cast soon) I am using jacketed bullets so I can now load them for their first real firing as the pilot and expander is the right size for the .243 bullet. The brass does not have a donut at this point but the firing and subsequent neck sizing brings on the donut which is no problem as those short jacketed bullets for 6mm PPC don't use more than half the neck in my rifle as the throat is shot out. I can't say my cases are world class as I can't get this rifle to shoot groups smaller than a quarter inch but rarely. I don't have a ball mike or a runout gage so I segregate my brass by neck tension by feel. My Lyman neck turn machine is not the most accurate tool, it doubles as a case trimmer and it does not even do that with the precision I would like. Did I say before, I hate case prep. I now have a little over one hundred cases in three headstamps, Lapua, Norma, and RP (small primer). I have a lot of work invested in those cases and like I said, I am not shooting under a quarter inch. This is a sleaved Rem 600 action glued into a fiberglass stock with a 40 power Leopold scope. I bought it used and the throat is eroded. Before I bought this rifle I had never shot a 100 yard group smaller than three quarters of an inch so it did at least prove that I can shoot better than that. I blame the eroded throat but it could be my ammo or my technique but these are the best groups I have ever shot.

Tim

btroj

10-13-2014, 07:21 AM

You made 220 cases? I feel good about having 90!
I do them in batches of 40 to 50 and do each step on all the cases at once. Far and away the worst are the rough cutting to length, trimming, and neck turning. Neck turning is ,ugh easier now that's have it powered but it still is time consuming.

yeah, I don't forsee me having 220 cases formed anytime soon.

Bjornb

10-13-2014, 08:29 AM

Each time I go to the range I shoot on average 80-100 shots, so I really had no choice. I needed that many cases.
Later today I'll make a pictorial on how I make an XCB case, step by step, so that guys who are considering joining this project can get an idea of what's involved. This will be my way of doing it; I don't claim monopoly on this. Both Btroj, Gear and Goodsteel use slightly different techniques to arrive at the same end product, and I'm sure Larry will make his cases using his own sequence.

Bjornb

10-13-2014, 08:55 AM

Before I describe yesterday's testing I'd like to inform you guys that I'll be putting Bertha in the safe for a while. I'll re-shoot this test (and I'll explain why), then I'll wait for a new barrel to arrive.
The rifle shoots too many erratic groups that just cannot be explained away with ammo, shooter etc.
If this was a cast bullet ONLY occurrence I would just put my nose to the grindstone and work harder at casting and loading.
However, I've not been able to make the rifle shoot CONSISTENTLY with jacketed, and that tells me there are other issues. This rifle should shoot one-hole groups at 100 yards with SMKs, and there's always the "flyer", even with me (the shooter) knowing every shot was dead on. The rifle is a beast at over 20 pounds, and she's a rock steady platform to work with. I've got 2 barrels on order right now (Krieger and Brux), and whichever arrives first will go on this rifle.

OK, back to yesterday's shooting. I had received 80 bullets from Larry Gibson, and they was purdy. I loaded them up with H4831SC, which had shown some promise earlier, and here are the results:
119012119013119014119015
Again nothing earth-shattering here, but the velocity was good, and there's room for more powder in the case.
In the 48 grain group I was gonna call it quits after 4 shots

About re-shooting the test:
When loading for this test I was using Norma "Re" cases, or component case (as opposed to once fired ammo). These necks were .013, and with Larry's bullets miking .311the end results were in the high .337 range, sometimes breaking .338 for loaded necks.
119016119017
Anything above about .3379 will cause a hard bolt closing as the neck is being jammed into the chamber throat. I was trying to avoid having to turn these necks by adjusting bullet diameter, but I wanted to shoot Larry's bullets as sized and so I went ahead and loaded all 40 rounds as shown.
There was clearly a big difference in neck tension between rounds due to the uneven pressure required to close the bolt.
I intend to use the same 40 cases, and turn the necks for a .3375 slip-fit, and reload with the same charges. I have 40 of Larry's bullets left. It may not make a difference, but there's only one way to find out (insert R5R's tag line here). Talk is cheap.
I'll be back in a few days (planning the shoot on Tuesday).

MBTcustom

10-13-2014, 09:21 AM

I think you're right on the money Bjorn. The XCB throats have been coming out .3377-.3379 consistently, across the board, and the largest pin gauge that will enter the throat easily is .3105.
the throat is bound to wear in a little though, so figure .311 max on the boolit diameter.
I just worry about prethroat obturation or bumping up, which may make .310 the safe boolit diameter.
Looking good Bjorn. Your attention to detail and the candid way you post leaves very little to be confused about.
Can't wait to see your tutorial. My pad is flipped open and I'm licking my pencil......

Love Life

10-13-2014, 09:39 AM

I am very glad that BjornB is here to lead the way in testing along with proof and standards.

Next time you shoot, segregate your cases that close hard and ones that cause fliers during shooting.

BjornB, you are the man when it comes to shooting cast boolits accurately at high velocity!! I love all the proof!!

lar45

10-13-2014, 03:45 PM

I've had a couple of thoughts about forming cases to get rid of the doughnut.

What if we were to take the decapping pin and nut out of the sizeing/form die and make a new nut that will hold a reamer in alignment with the neck. Now cut and run your formed case into the new die and while the case is still in the die, use the reamer to cutout the inside of the neck?
As long as the reamer is held in alignment with the case, shouldn't this leave you with the correct size, parralel, and doughnut free neck?

Second thought: I have a 44 Automag and the RCBS forming/ream dies to go along with it. Couldn't you cut an 06 case to length, neck up to 44 cal-ish, then run the case into the 44AMP die and ream the inside out as far as you wanted. Then just run the case into your XCB size die and be done?

detox

10-13-2014, 05:45 PM

Case length is important also. Case length should be about .015 shorter than chamber length (Sinclair recommends .024 shorter). I trim cases .005 shorter than chamber before fire forming with "lower pressure cast loads", because case will shorten a little more when fired. I use the Sinclair chamber length case insert to help figure chamber length. My insert has a diameter of .335. A larger diameter of .340 would work best in my SAMMI rifles.

Some say the LEE neck collet die will prevent cases from shortening further.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8157_zps0d873e66.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8157_zps0d873e66.jpg.html)

Bjornb

10-18-2014, 08:55 PM

OK I lied. I'm NOT shelving Bertha. Barrel issue or not, I'm just having too much fun working up these loads and shooting them, so I'll be continuing to bore the membership with groups and target pictures.
Today I re-shot last week's loads with the remainder of Larry Gibson's bullets. The difference in this week's loading was a neck turning of the Norma cases to a uniform neck thickness of .0125", and every case neck was internally polished with some 0000 steel wool wrapped around a 30 cal bronze brush from Brunos.
The loaded cases necks measured .3367-.3373. This created a good slip fit in the chamber; a loaded round could be extracted without problems.

As foulers i shot a group of 10 of my own castings over 52 grs. WC867 milsurp powder. The MV wasn't great, just shy of 2300 fps, but accuracy was remarkable.

As for the remaining 4 groups I got the impression that better case prep and more even neck tension contributed to slightly more controlled groups.

The last group, 49 grains of H4831SC, chronoed slightly lower than 48 grains. There was a marked shift in the sunlight between these groups (the entire firing line went from bright sunlight to shade). That's the only explanation I have for this anomaly. The chronograph was set a measured 13 feet from the muzzle.

119534119535119536119537119538

geargnasher

10-19-2014, 12:57 AM

You're powder and alloy are obviously not getting along. Do you have any RX22, Superformance, or WW780 Supreme?

I actually planned this thing around using H4350, but it was dismal after many, many attempts with different bullets and alloys. Sometimes that's how it goes. The much slower ball powder is trying to tell you something....

How does the hardness of your bullets compare to those Larry cast for you?

Gear

Bjornb

10-19-2014, 04:46 AM

I tested RL22 way back in post 59, nothing spectacular. A pound of Superformance just came in the door, it's next on the list to test. No 780 on hand, but I'm not done with the 760 yet. Larry has had some excellent results with the H414/760 powder recently; he has promised to post it when his computer gets back on line. As i understand it he's down to his smartphone for CB site access.
The bullets sent me by Larry tested at 21 BHN, while the batch I've been shooting lately (RotoMetals Hardball) came in at 23. I've been reading up on an old thread (2008) where alloy toughness is being discussed, and where there was some testing done concluding that a TOUGH alloy that would respond to heat treating would be 92-4-4. Since I have a selection of certified alloys including Roto Superhard (30% antimony), I was going to make up a batch and test it. I willingly admit that I'm no expert on alloying; I've been going along with advice here and will continue to listen while also testing for myself.

geargnasher

10-19-2014, 11:57 AM

H414 worked really well for me in a lot of things. I forgot you already tested Reloder22.

Runfiverun has had pretty good luck using hardball alloy for some things, not so much for others. He mentioned swage-able alloys not having much tin in them, a .310" bullet going through a .308- hole is doing just that. Depending on bullet fit and engraving "style" of the bullet and throat, you may not need to use as much tin as you have been, but it should be tested anyway.

I'm going to go shoot some HT'd 50/50 +1% 190X bullets here in a bit, we'll swap notes.

Gear

geargnasher

10-19-2014, 05:05 PM

Love Life

10-19-2014, 07:31 PM

What happened to Larry's posts? Am I losing my mind or did they actually exist long enough for me to read them?

Bjornb

10-19-2014, 08:47 PM

Back from the range. Buffer has officially been tested in the XCB, and it helped the MTF fit bullet immensely. So did going to .3095" and softer necks with a little more loaded clearance. I'm not sure how fast the buffered loads were going (busy pre-hunting madness at the range, didn't even set up the chronograph), but powder alone should have gotten them into the mid-25s. Went from 2.5" group to first three touching, then half-inch, then flung one out to make those five an inch. Cease-fire called and it was 15 minutes before getting back to shooting, next five scattered to 1.25" with the buffer. Bullet holes very black on the target, not sure what's up with that. The last ten were horrible, even with buffer, like 5", just by using harder necks with a half-thousandth clearance.

Like my other guns, when I start pushing things up near the top, every little detail matters a LOT.

Gear

Yeah that's normally what happens. Decent grouping then all of a sudden disaster. Were you using Puff-Lon? I have a bottle of that and it would be interesting to try; however I seem to be loading close to 90% with most powders so there would only be space for a pinch.
I saw the groups that Btroj posted back in September on another site, shot with RL19, and today I finally managed to secure some of that powder, 2 hours drive north of here. So that will be tested.
I also have 55 cases made up from 8x57 brass that I'll be fire forming this week. Maybe 10% had very mild neck striations from the XCB die, most formed very easily and look reasonably good.

Bjornb

10-19-2014, 11:00 PM

Larry earlier today attempted to post 2 tests he did with two of my cast bullet batches. He is having computer problems that appears to have been caused by hacking. I have asked a good friend who's an FBI agent to look into it; hopefully the culprits can be traced and Larry returned to CB.
In the meantime I'll post the first of the tests here:

Overview of test with Bjornb’s NOE 310-165-FN Bullets

I received the test NOE 310-165-FN cast bullets from Bjornb to test in a side by side comparison with my own cast NOE 310-165-FN bullets. Based on his test results with his bullets giving flyers when loaded above 2450 fps it was suspected there may be an issue with the casting technique and perhaps the alloy. In receipt of the bullets I did a close examination of them. I received 11 bullets cast of #2 alloy. They were already GC’d (Hornady GCs), lubed with 2500+ and sized to .310. Also there were 21 bullets cast of RotoMetal’s Hard Ball alloy. They also were GC’d, lubed and sized to .310. A close comparison of bot of Bjorn’s bullets alongside my own cast of Lyman #2 alloy as prepared by me (4 ½ lbs linotype, 5 lbs of lead and ½ lb of tin) The photo shows all three bullets; Bjorn’s Hard Ball (A) is on the left, mine of #2 alloy (B) is in the middle and Bjorns of #2 alloy (C) is on the right.

119626
Note the area on both Bjorn bullets marked “2”. That indicates the sizing border left when sized to .310. Notice how uneven it is around the bullet? That indicates the bullet is not concentric. Next notice the texture difference between the Bjorn bullets (#3 area circled) and the same are on the middle bullet? That indicates a casting problem with mould temperature, alloy temperature or both. The wrong casting temperature can alloy the grainier appearance and probable structure in the bullet. Also any antimony over the saturation point in the lead and not in solution in the lead combined with the tin as SbSn will solidify separately before before the lead does. A mould not hot enough or the alloy not hot enough causes this to happen too rapidly giving the grainy structure. Antimony is less dense than lead. It can easily solidify in one part of the bullet causing an imbalance. Notice the overall smooth texture of the “B” bullet. That is what we strive for. The alloy and mould temperatures were correct. Additionally with a good bottom pour furnace the temperature can be maintained using a thermometer. The pour velocity/volume can also be kept consistent for equal pressure of the alloy filling the mould cavity. All of which produces bullets like the “B” bullet.

Note at number 4 there is a discrepancy in the seating depth of the GC’s on Bullets “A” and “C’. The GC on Bullet “A” has not been crimped on or the bullets sized. I measured the length of ten of the A bullets and found a variance of .0021”. The OAL variance of ten of the “C” bullets was .0027” Ten of the “B” bullets when the GCs were seated and crimped using a .311 H&I die in a Lyman 450 with the Lyman C seater and the bullet sized at .311 had a variance of OAL of only .001. This indicates a better procedure for seating and crimping the GCs before sizing needs to be done.

Not to say bullets “A” and “B” were that bad of bullets. They would do very nicely for general lower velocity shooting. However, when pushing the velocity and pressures higher like we are then “the devil is in the details”. We must pay strict attention to detail and produce the most consistent bullet of proper quality that we can.

Finally I did a BHN test on all three bullets. Bjorn’s #2 alloy bullet had a 15 BHN which is what unhardened #2 alloy is supposed to be. The RotoMetals Hard Ball alloy had a BHN of 23, again very close to what it should have been. The Bullet cast by me of #2 alloy but WQ’d (water quenched) out of the mould had a BHN of 21. Also what it should have been.

The test load was 47 gr of AA4350 thrown with a Lyman #55 powder thrower. Cases were well fire formed Winchester .308W “Palma” cases. The cases were neck sized with a Redding Bushing die to give .002 - .003 neck tension. A Lyman .31 M-die was a tight slip fit inside the case necks and belled the case mouths for bullet seating. The primers were Winchester WLRs.

So how did it play out on target? The test was with 10 shot test groups at 100 yards. A solid bench rest was used and the wind was not a factor. The test rifle was my M98 Mauser Palma rifle with a Schultz & Larson 27.5” Palma contour barrel with 14” twist. Scope on the rifle is a Weaver T-16. An Oehler m43 PBL was used to record velocity and it corrected the velocity to the muzzle. The M43 also recorded the pressure data. Shots in the test strings were timed giving one minute between each shot to keep the barrel temperature down. Three fouler shots were fired before the test began.

The first test was the control group with the same load (loaded at the same time as Bjorn’s bullets were loaded) but using my cast NOE 310-165-FN bullets of #2 alloy and WQ’d. We see a muzzle velocity of 2594 fps and a recorded psi of 42,400. That is consistent with previously tests of this load. This can be accounted for in that my bullets were sized .311 and Bjorn’s were sized .310. However, a difference of 50 fps +/- and 2,000 psi +/- is within the expected variation of velocity and psi of different tests of the same load. The internal ballistics are also good with a good ES and SD. The time/pressure traces are consistent. The 1/65 is on the top end of the average group size I’ve gotten with that load so far.

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The first test with Bjorn’s bullets was with the #2 alloy cast bullet. I traced the bullet holes on this data sheet for group size reference. The group was 3.13” for the 10 shots. Muzzle velocity was 2538 fps with a recorded 40,200 psi. Using the “reference ammunition” correction factor for that rifle the psi was 43,300. From the group size we see the bullet did not hold up well. A combination of the softer alloy (15 BHN) with the defects took it’s toll in accuracy even though the internal ballistics as shown by the decent SD, ES and time/pressure traces.

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The next test was with Bjorn’s Hardball bullets with the GCs reseated. Here we see a 2” group with 7 of them into a 1” group. Whether that is the result of random dispersion or that the other 2 – 3 shots out of that group are flyers. The probable defects discussed account for them as flyers. With better quality bullets accuracy with this alloy should improve. The velocity was 2553 fps with 40,800 psi. The internal ballistics were excellent with very good SD, ES and time/pressure traces.

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I then tested the load with the RotoMetal Hard Ball alloy but with the GCs left seated as received. Here we see an obvious difference merely seating the GCs with the previous test made. A 2.37” group with the shots spread randomly throughout. Velocity was 2561 fps with 40,200 psi recorded. Again the internal ballistics were good as evidenced by the SD, ES and smooth time/pressure traces.

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As we see from the results of this side by side test good quality cast bullets are essential for accuracy. However, when we push as hard and fast as we are “good quality” isn’t good enough. The bullets you sent certainly are “good quality bullets” but we see the minor flaws observed have to be eliminated if we want the best accuracy at a higher velocity. I’m sure with a little work we can get you casting excellent quality bullets. It is frustrating to “reject” 50% plus of what you think are good cast bullets. It is necessary though. However, the “rejects” (except for the actual culls) can still be used with very good results at the lower velocity “normal” cast bullet range. I’ve even lowered the weight variation of the sorted “lots” of bullets from the before +/- 2 ½ tenths grain to now a 1 tenth grain +>_ variation. The bullets I used for this test were the older 2 ½ tenth grain variation. I’m looking at tightening up that group also. After 83 rounds through that rifle (had a couple other tests to do) I fired a last group from the fouled barrel. It was 1.2” for 10 shots. I did not have it hooked up to the M43 then so I do not include the results here as there is no data to go with the group.

We’re having fun now and should improve your skills at casting. I thought I was a good caster and really was until I really started getting anal in my bullet selection for higher velocity shooting. I soon discovered I had to get even better at casting. Took a while and I’m still improving. You will get there.

Larry Gibson

Bjornb

10-19-2014, 11:10 PM

Second test of Bjorn’s 310-165-FN NOE 30 XCB Bullets

On receiving the second bullets to test a close inspection revealed little difference between the 2 batches (32 and 11 bullets each). The bullets Bjorn GC’d an initially sized in a Lee .311 Push through sizer (32) and the plain bullets unsized and not GC’d showed better quality in casting than the first batch I tested a couple weeks previously.

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I reseated the GCs of the GC’d batch just to make sure nothing had loosened during shipment and GC’d the other Batch with Hornady GC’s. A Lyman 450 with the GC seater using a .311 H&I die was used. The bullets were then push sized through my .311 Lee sizer. Even though the GC’d bullets had been sized by Bjorn previously at .311 they still were sized again(?). I measured some before sizing and they were .3118. The un GC’d ones were also .3118 so I’me wondering if they were sized? After push through sizing both batches were lubed with 2500+ lube in the 450 with the .311 H&I die.

The bullets were loaded over my standard load of 47 gr AA4350 in Winchester .308W Palma cases having WLR primers in them. Other pertinent data is on the M43 Data sheets. That is the same test load as used previously.

The data sheet for the bullets GC’d by Bjorn records only 7 shots. The first 3 shots did not screen as it was just shooting light there was a high overcast. After those shots I removed the diffusers from the Skyscreens and the subsequent shots recorded. Whether or not the interruption caused the inaccuracy or not I don’t know. I did not call any shots out of the group so it is probably not the cause. The group size at 3.15” was larger than the previous bullet test. Muzzle velocity at 2577 fps was consistent as was the very good internal ballistics with the previous test. There is nothing there to account for the lack of accuracy other than a problem with the bullets.

However, just to be sure I will load the remaining 22 bullets over the same load and test those.

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The test of the bullets that I had GC’d, sized and lubed proved much better. The velocity and internal ballistics remained essentially the same and excellent in every respect. I did call the one shot low left out of the group. The other 9 good shots are in and excellent 1.45” group.

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Given the markedly different group size between what should have been essentially the same bullets we need to find out the reason why. The retest of the previous bullets should tell us if something Bjorn is doing that is causing the inaccuracy or if I just blew the first group.

Larry Gibson

btroj

10-19-2014, 11:31 PM

Thanks Bjorn and Larry.

Bullet quality, alloy content, and hardness to match the pressure curve are going to be the big factors to overcome. Without the right bullet everything else is for naught.

Gear, I think the buffer test was interesting. Any comments on where you are going to go from here with buffer?

MBTcustom

10-20-2014, 12:07 AM

Thank you for posting those comments BjornB. Larry contacted me earlier this evening and requested that I delete both his attempts as he was unable to satisfactorily complete either of them. I'm glad the information was brought forward after all.

geargnasher

10-20-2014, 01:09 AM

Yes, thank you both. I know it takes considerable effort to put all that together and make it happen, and the resulting information is greatly appreciated, especially Bjorn's "posting by proxy". Hoping to see an XCB with a strain gauge attached in the future....

We’re having fun now and should improve your skills at casting. I thought I was a good caster and really was until I really started getting anal in my bullet selection for higher velocity shooting. I soon discovered I had to get even better at casting. Took a while and I’m still improving. You will get there.

Larry Gibson

I have to agree wholeheartedly on this one as well, anyone who ventures off into the twilight zone quickly learns that "good enough" isn't anymore, and not very many manufacturers make bullet moulds that perfectly align and are perfectly round, or that we close exactly the same way every time. 45 2.1 has been harping on me for years about bullet quality and casting technique, he knows what quality is and that most of the rest of us just THINK we do, until we finally find out otherwise for ourselves that actually we suck at making bullets. These sorts of careful shooting tests prove the things we all need to focus on when attempting high-velocity shooting. These tapered bullet designs show issues with uneven temperature and misalignment very quickly and are good teachers as well. I still pull my hair frequently after sizing a batch of bullets that I thought for sure were top-notch...only to find not so much. I actually had two bullets I sized yesterday that caved in just forward of the front "driving band" as a result of air pressure collapsing large (match-head sized) voids. I was using a Keith-the-Perfesser push-through arrangement for the Lyman H-dies and the push rod is too short to push the bullets clear through, so one bullet pushes the last the rest of the way. This allows considerable air pressure to develop between the two bullets in the die, causing the collapses of nose voids that are near the surface. I was boggled and not a little ashamed of those, and I will be revisiting my pouring techniques again. I tend to cast better bullets with a large, modified ladle because I can dollop a huge stream of alloy into the cavity and "flush out" air pockets while the entire bullet cavity is molten and flowing. The bottom-pour is a little more difficult because the alloy is freezing during the pour and increasing the flow to fill faster causes too much turbulence due to the head pressure of the pot.

Brad, I re-read my post and I wasn't clear about the first ten shots, that was with no buffer, just H414 and air, a load I'd fired previously with the same bullets, only difference was I was breaking in some LC-69 brass I'd just made this weekend, and it had very soft shoulders from a deeper original anneal than the Federal and RP stuff I'd been using. IOW, very soft necks. Also I was using .3095" bullets instead of .3105" bullets as previously fired several times over the chronograph with this load, averaging about 2540 fps, well into the accuracy-deterioration range. I was experimenting to see if the softer brass and smaller bullets helped or hurt, and also as a pre-buffer comparison.

The buffer I used was BPI Original, the non-flowing variety. This batch of buffer is a finer grind than what I have previously seen, but same product. I settled the powder in the loading block and sifted in the buffer for a gas-check-thickness's compression when seating the bullets. The result of the second, ten-shot group was pattern-to-bugholes with buffer being the only change from the first group of the day, but it did seem to deteriorate after the first three. The last ten-shot group was with old, tired, hard brass and a grain more powder, it went south in a BIG way. Wish I had chrono numbers because it looked like a 20-yard buckshot pattern.

Anyway, I have what SHOULD be a group in the mid-to-high 25s with the buffer and a weak-for-the-job alloy trying to do a half-inch group at a hundred yards, but it looks like CORE is becoming an issue. Many, many times testing lubes I've had a "Eureka!" moment at the range when making a change to the lube or load in the middle of a string, without touching the bore, and then it gradually falls apart, almost in a linear fashion as the bore condition changes. Honestly I think this lube (SL-68.1 IIRC) is gumming up a little or wetting the bore too much when using buffer. It's just soap, MW-180, 140-wt GL-1 paraffin gear oil, and a dash of castor oil. I may switch back to SL-68 which had a less viscous blend of Vaseline, 140, pharmacy mineral oil, and the same amount of castor just to see how it does with the buffer. One thing's for sure, NO brown soap deposits have been happening at all, all year, since I went back to putting wax in my soap lubes and stayed 100% away from napthenic oils.

Lots more to do, but it IS starting to get fun again. I might make this Morse-Taper-Fit thing work out after all, that buffer seemed to help a lot. Without it, the only thing I could get really good groups out of was that Mihec .30 Silhouette bullet which sort of buffers itself as it engraves and swages through the throat (when powder and alloy are JUST perfect, of course). If I can pin down a 25-2600 fps load with this nice, malleable, 192-grain bullet that stays consistently between half and 3/4", I'm going to book a long-range weekend at the range and see how she does there. If the dispersion holds up, I'm going to call it "mission accomplished" from my personal goals with the rifle and maybe go back to trying to make it shoot without buffer again and maybe fool with lubes, etc. You fellows with the slower twists and lighter bullets can chase 2800, I'm getting about as much pressure as I want right now with this heavier dude.

Gear

btroj

10-20-2014, 07:54 AM

I need to work with the 190x in Dad's old 06 to see if I can get a good load for deer season. 2200 fps would be good for me and that should be easy to get with good accuracy.

It is a bit tough sort it bullets and deciding that only 50% are good enough for this challenge. I'm just not used to being that picky but sometimes a guy just needs to suck it up and admit he isn't as good as he thought.

Interesting that the softer necks made a difference. Did I also read that you had a bit more neck clearance? I don't think that is all bad either as long as it isn't excessive. I don't think .001 on either side of the neck is gonna hurt a bit.

cbrick

10-20-2014, 08:34 AM

Thanks for re-posting Bjorn, that's an excellent post with valuable info.

I have a question, actually lot's of questions but first, regarding the non-concentric bullets Larry pointed out with your bullets. How where these bullets sized? It's been my experience that any of the in & out sizers will size non-concentric just like the ones in your bullets and many times even worse than that. It's probably due to the nose punch not holding the nose/bullet perfectly straight/the same on each bullet. A straight through sizer (Star or LEE) that uses a flat/square punch on a flat/square bullet base will size the bullets far more concentrically. As Gear pointed out the bullet should be pushed all the way through in one pass, I've had extra long punches made to do just that. Also to aid in getting a concentric bullet I don't drop the bullet into the die & push it through hoping it will straighten out, I hold the gas check up against the punch and lower the bullet into the die slowly allowing it to self center while maintaining contact between the flat punch and bullet base to keep the bullet straight.

So Bjorn, how were your bullets sized? Larry's groups shows it does matter.

Rick

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Note the area on both Bjorn bullets marked “2”. That indicates the sizing border left when sized to .310. Notice how uneven it is around the bullet? That indicates the bullet is not concentric. Larry Gibson

btroj

10-20-2014, 08:37 AM

Bullets A and C also show signs they were sized down more than B. Sizing a bullet down much can be very hard on it.

Excellent report on how important bullet quality can be in some circumstances.

Bjornb

10-20-2014, 08:51 AM

Larry Gibson prepared another test of my bullets and sent it to me as a Word document. He also goes into detail about some of the loading techniques that work for him, and he has given me permission to post the document in its entirety.

Bjorn,
As you mentioned the BHN of Larry’s #2 alloy WQ’d NOE XCB bullets is 21. That alloy and that bullet when properly sized at .311 and lubed with 2500+ provides less than 2 moa accuracy to 2700+ fps so far. That has been out of my Palma rifle in .308W with a 14” twist 27.6” long barrel.

That rifle is a far cry from a $1500 rifle. And a $1500 rifle is not all that expensive for a tricked out rifle these days. My Palma rifle is on a WWII byf (Mauser) M98 with a takeoff barrel (taken off because it did not shoot to the original owner’ requirement) in a 1st attempt at a Kevlar/fiberglass copy of a Savage 112V stock I fished out of a garbage can. I put the barrel on the action myself. The face of the barrel was square and the shoulder was relieved to just kiss the front of the receiver when the face butted up tight against the internal shoulder. I had to finish ream the chamber to minimal headspace and used a M118 Match reamer. It is just bedded correctly and it shoots very accurately.

I am not disparaging balanced and blue printed actions and barrels by any means. I expect Tim will do an excellent job of such on the VZ24 M98 I am sending him to put the 30” Broughton barrel with the 16” twist on. Everything that can be done to keep the cartridge and bullet concentric with the bore should be done. Especially if we are to remain true to the original objective of the concept of higher velocity with accuracy for which the 30x57, the 30 XCB and the 30 XCB NOE bullet have been developed for. The “high velocity with accuracy” is going to remain relative based on the barrel length, the twist used and the cast bullet weight. The “accuracy” will also remain relative to the bullet weight, design, alloy, care in casting and selection and the acceleration rate used to attain a given velocity relative to the barrel twist.

The original goal was to achieve 2800 + fps with 2 moa or less accuracy with10 shot groups while holding linear dispersion to 300 or longer ranges. We know we can achieve such accuracy with a 10” twist barrel to 2200 +/- fps. We know we can achieve such accuracy to 2400 +/- fps with a 12” twist barrel. Yes there are some who claim higher velocities with such accuracy using 3 or 5 shot groups. I have done so myself at 100 yards. However the test is with 10 shot groups for a reliable/surety measure of the accuracy and that linear dispersion remains consistent at longer range. While it is easy to do with 3 and sometimes 5 shot groups at 100 yards it is indeed “hard” to do with 10 shot groups and to ensure the linear expansion as the range increases. The “easy way” most often leads us to a false answer while the “hard way”, though difficult, leads us to the correct answer.

The trick now is to achieve 2500 – 2600+ fps with such 2 moa or less accuracy using a 14” twist barrel. The 30 XCB/ 30x57 cartridge is an excellent cartridge to use. It can be done also with the .308W as I’ve demonstrated numerous times. I will demonstrate it again now with the .308W cartridge, the NOE 30 XCB bullet and the 14” twist Palma rifle described above.

Let’s discuss the NOE 30 XCB bullet (310-165-FN). This bullet was designed by several of us with the idea of a perfect fit in the ’06 neck length with the GC at the base of the neck and the beginning of the ogive just bumping up against the leade, a bearing surface of 60% +, a nose giving a decent BC w/o any bore riding portion and having a small meplat. The NOE XCB bullet is the result and it is proving to be the best high velocity .30 caliber design. The only design that comes close to the NOE XCB in actual high velocity performance/accuracy is the Lyman 311466. I learned a long time ago it didn’t matter what I “liked” or thought “looked good”. If it didn’t work I don’t use it any more. I don’t care who designed the bullet either. If it works at high velocity or gives the performance desired I will use it. If it doesn’t I won’t use it.

A lot has been bandied about the “balance” of the cast bullet. It is even now suggested that swaging will balance the bullet. It won’t if the alloy is not itself a correct balance of lead to antimony to tin. The antimony and tin must be balance together to form sufficient SbSn (the sub metal) that is in solution with the lead and does not exceed the solubility limit of the lead. While the tin, if in excess, readily blends with lead the antimony does not. The antimony will harden first creating small pockets of that metal in the lead. Since antimony is much less dense than lead those antimony pockets create imbalances. There must be a correct balance of antimony to tin to form SbSn and that sub metal should be close to but not exceed the solubility limit to stay in solution in the lead. If such is not the case then all the visual selection, weight sorting and swaging in the world won’t put that Humpy Dumpy back together again. Quality cast bullets of a correct and suitable alloy are a must if high velocity is the goal.

I don’t cogitate on “launch philosophy”. I measure it, understand what is and what isn’t and then use the science of it to move forward to higher velocity with accuracy. Yes I have the benefit of measuring such. I have not withheld any information and have shared. Some listen, some don’t. I have learned to observe the many times subtle differences between a load that is accurate and one that isn’t given the same relative velocity. One has to look at the accuracy on target, the internal ballistics (SD & ES of the velocities and pressures), the area under the pressure curve (proportional to bullet impulse and momentum) and the rise of the pressure curve (measured in microseconds and indicates the actual burn rate of the powder).

Much ado has also been mentioned about neck clearance, turning necks, etc. While it is important to give case longevity, keep the bullet from unwanted obturation and keeping the bullet concentric to the bore is it necessary for accuracy? I certainly used to think so and will have a tight neck in my Broughton barrel chamber but I have come to find the answer is not always so concrete. In some case it certainly is necessary but is some cases it doesn’t seem to matter. With the harder bullets we are using and the slower burning powders the bullet is out of the case neck and engraved into the rifling well before enough pressure is generated to obdurate the bullet. How do I know this? First the neck clearance on my Palma .308W chamber neck is .006” which hardly supports the bullet while still in the case neck. Second, I measure it. Look at the pressure trace (time/pressure curve) on the three tests. Note the initial pressure rise and then slightly drop off. That is the bullet entering into the bore, swaging from .311 to .308 and being engraved by the rifling. It is very noticeable with slower burning powders. At 2704 fps the accuracy is 1.6” so we have to ask if a tighter neck would make a difference. I’ll leave that to others to debate. I just use other means to ensure concentricity of the bullet/cartridge and it is working fine.

I have also learned that if one does turn necks properly there will be no “dreaded doughnut ring”. The secret is to use a mandrel the same diameter as the bullet.

At the beginning of a test session I like to warm up (after a test of the M43 system set up with reference ammunition) with a test of my SL. Here’s one done a couple days ago consisting of 12 shots. Seven shots were with the necks sized (Redding Bushing die) to give .002 - .003 tension. They went into 1.3”. The other five shots had necks giving .001 which were left over from a test of neck tension on accuracy. Those opened the group to 1.7” with vertical stringing. The internal ballistic data shows the load was excellent. However, in the actual test the lesser neck tension loads gave a lower velocity with a higher SD & ES and a larger group size, mostly vertical stringing. The group here again told the real tale (matches the results of the test) and is why I recommend .002 - .003” neck tension. I only recorded 8 of the shots as I thought I had put gas in the generator (range doesn’t have electricity) but hadn’t and then the battery in the computer died…….oops!

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So let’s look at an example of how we move forward by understanding what is actually happening. First example is one test of my “standard load” for the NOE bullet and the load used to test Bjorn’s bullets. It is 47 gr of AA4350 under the NOE 30 XCB bullet in Winchester cases using WLR primers. Out of the 14” twist Palma rifle this load averages 2565 – 2605 fps for 10 shot test strings given the usual variations in test to test averages and depending on the temperature and conditions of the day when tested. The 40 fps average velocity of different test strings is well within the “inclusion standards” of SAAMI.

The accuracy of the SL (“standard load”) group at 1.65” is very close enough for comparative purposes to the accuracy of the second example (LvR) at 1.6”. Note the internal SD & ES of the velocity and pressures of both loads are, for all practical purposes, very good. Some like to chase the lower single digit SD proclaiming some sort of excellence based on it but I can show you many very low single digit SDs with very poor accuracy. Single digit SDs are easier to come by with 3 and 5 shot test strings, especially the 3 shot ones, more on the fallacy of those groups in a minute. However, when we look at the velocity of the SL at 2594 fps and then at the 2704 fps of the LvR load we wonder; why only 2594 fps with the AA4350 load and the much higher 110 fps faster 2704 fps of the LvR load with the same basic accuracy? The answer is in the “Area” and the “Rise” data. The LvR load has the slower time pressure curve as indicated by the longer time under the pressure curve and the slower rise to pressure.

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What we see with the LvR load is we have attained 2700+ fps with excellent accuracy using the NOE 30 XCB bullet in a 14” twist barrel. This is with the .308W cartridge which has only 1 -2 gr less load density that the 30x57/30 XCB cartridge with both case being Winchester. There is no reason a 14” twist 30 XCB rifle with at least a 26” barrel shouldn’t be able to do the same. The trick is to slow down the time pressure curve and keep the area of the pressure curve larger. But first, more on the differences between 3, 5 and 10 shot groups.

Look hard at that 1.6” group. I can find at least eight different 3 shot groups of .5” or smaller. I can find five different 5 shot groups. Had I been shooting 3 shot groups and picked any of those eight + 3 shot possibilities I could claim .5 or less “accuracy. Also there is only 12 fps ES and a very low single digit SD for the first 3 shots. Had I just shot a 5 shot group I stood a 50 – 50 chance of moa accuracy or less with an ES of 14 fps and a low single digit SD. However, the truth of the accuracy of that load is now proven to be 1.2 – 1.8 moa (10 shots of course) with linear dispersion to 300 yards. Yes a 10 shot group is “hard” but it gives us the real factual answer. The 3 and 5 shot groups can lead us astray.

In being able to measure the true burning rates I’ve found that with a “Rise” of 155 – 160 we can find accuracy upwards of 2600 fps with the 14” twist barrel. That is IF we also do everything else correctly. There is no one magic thing that will give us instant accuracy at such a velocity. As another example I found H414 to be a promising powder when used with the MP 30-180 Sil bullet. While. Accuracy wasn’t as good as expected above 2400 fps in my 12” twist M70 Target rifle I though it may prove out well in the 14” twist Palma under the NOE 310-165 XCB bullet. Such was not to be thought. At 2600+ fps the burning rate proved no slower than AA4350 and accuracy was never better than 2 moa. In the test below we see at 2735 fps the burning rate (159 “Rise”) was not any slower burning than AA4350. Note also the very fine single digit SD of “6” with an ES of “19” fps. That is certainly excellent but the 4.7” group size belies the fact that a low SD may not really mean much in and of itself.

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So, bottom line is I am sitting at 2700 fps with accuracy out of my 14” twist .308W. I will keep trying to push the velocity higher but with the RPM at 139,000 and the case capacity limited I’m not sure how much higher velocity with such accuracy can be attained. I will not be chambering the Broughton 16” twist barrel in the 30x57/30 XCB as I do not think the slight increase in powder capacity is going to be beneficial. I will have Tim run the chamber deeper as I’ve formed cases with the shoulder a tudge farther forward giving a load density of 53 gr AA4350. With that load density, the 16” twist and the 30” barrel 2800 – 2900+ fps is the goal.

To end a session of testing I always like to shoot a group of the SL just to see how the rifle does after numerous tests. Here’s one done a few days back after 100 test shots with 3 different powders had fouled the bore.

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Larry Gibson

BTW; someone is not playing nice as my home IPR is blocked. I cannot log onto the site from any of my 3 computers at home. I can log on with all of them using another hot spot and with my smart phone. I am going through a hot spot with this post using my main frame which will not log on going through my own IPR. (IPR may not be a correct term for my home wireless network?). This is the second time on only this topic that this has happened. Wish someone could figure out the problem?

Bjornb

10-20-2014, 09:15 AM

Thanks for re-posting Bjorn, that's an excellent post with valuable info.

I have a question, actually lot's of questions but first, regarding the non-concentric bullets Larry pointed out with your bullets. How where these bullets sized? It's been my experience that any of the in & out sizers will size non-concentric just like the ones in your bullets and many times even worse than that. It's probably due to the nose punch not holding the nose/bullet perfectly straight/the same on each bullet. A straight through sizer (Star or LEE) that uses a flat/square punch on a flat/square bullet base will size the bullets far more concentrically. As Gear pointed out the bullet should be pushed all the way through in one pass, I've had extra long punches made to do just that. Also to aid in getting a concentric bullet I don't drop the bullet into the die & push it through hoping it will straighten out, I hold the gas check up against the punch and lower the bullet into the die slowly allowing it to self center while maintaining contact between the flat punch and bullet base to keep the bullet straight.

So Bjorn, how were your bullets sized? Larry's groups shows it does matter.

Rick

Rick,
you are right on the money here. All my sizing used to be done with regular H&I dies. This is clearly not good enough. Since Lee doesn't make a .310 push thru I sent a .309 to Tim that should be in the mail back to me today as a .310. The .309 proved slightly small and the .311 would sometimes shave a little lead so the .310 should be correct for my barrel.
As for seating the gas checks it seems like I'm doing it as you describe: I push the check onto the shank (actually push the bullet onto the check as it's laying on my bench).
Then I crimp the check on in my Lyman 4500 with the gas check "stopping device" attached below the sizing die. A spritzer of case lube, and I run it through the Lee.

Previously I just sent the bullet/gas check combo through the Lyman and you can see the results above.

cbrick

10-20-2014, 09:59 AM

As for seating the gas checks it seems like I'm doing it as you describe: I push the check onto the shank (actually push the bullet onto the check as it's laying on my bench).

No, that's not how I describe seating/installing checks. What I described in post #239 was how I size, not how I install checks. There should be NO pushing the check on, the check should slip on the shank sitting flat against the bullet base. The check is then crimped on by the die during sizing being held against the bullet base by the punch. I accomplish this by sizing the checks with a properly made punch before installing them. After the checks are sized they are completely flat with none of the concave left and with slightly flared sides on the cup. I described this in detail to Brad and he plans on using his new toy to make proper check sizing punches.

If the check isn't perfectly installed perfectly flat against the bullet base and perfectly square to the bullet the best crown in the world is useless.

Any how, that's how I install checks and size the bullets in my quest for more accurate bullets. I fully believe the goals set out in this testing are 100% attainable, that's why I have been following these threads but little things will matter a lot and every little thing you can do to make a better bullet will pay off in the end. It's time to pick the fly poop out of the pepper barrel so to speak.

Rick

Bjornb

10-20-2014, 10:05 AM

Cool. I'll need to mike a few gas check shanks and have a punch made up. Most of my bullet bases have been minutely oversize for the gas checks and have required a solid push to slip on.

cainttype

10-20-2014, 10:09 AM

Bullets A and C also show signs they were sized down more than B. Sizing a bullet down much can be very hard on it.

Excellent report on how important bullet quality can be in some circumstances.

It appears to me that bullet "B" in the photo has not been sized. The gas check is still flared.
I prefer seating GCs in Star push-though sizers nose first, using a cupped base punch (common practice for many here). When done carefully, uneven marks can usually be traced to out-of-round projectiles.

cbrick

10-20-2014, 10:14 AM

Most of my bullet bases have been minutely oversize for the gas checks and have required a solid push to slip on.

Yep, that's the rub. When forcing the check on the shank it's nearly impossible to get it on perfectly square to the bullet and completely flat against the bullet base. It's another variable I try to eliminate. Yep, sizing checks is a huge PITA and boring as h*ll, need to keep the ultimate goal in mind to do it. :mrgreen:

Rick

cbrick

10-20-2014, 10:20 AM

It appears to me that bullet "B" in the photo has not been sized. The gas check is still flared.
I prefer seating GCs in Star push-though sizers nose first, using a cupped base punch (common practice for many here). When done carefully, uneven marks can usually be traced to out-of-round projectiles.

cainttype, I believe the cupped punch is simply to account for a sprue cut-off "lump" on the bullet base. With a properly adjusted sprue plate there will be no lump and a flat punch will work perfectly. When seeking the best accuracy we don't want an extra lump of lead on the base.

Rick

cainttype

10-20-2014, 10:35 AM

cainttype, I believe the cupped punch is simply to account for a sprue cut-off "lump" on the bullet base. With a properly adjusted sprue plate there will be no lump and a flat punch will work perfectly. When seeking the best accuracy we don't want an extra lump of lead on the base.

Rick

Rick, although the cup-base punch alleviates minor GC cants resulting from small sprue extrusions (if present), it also focuses all the seating force around the edge of the GC. By placing the increased amount of pressure on the outer perimeter, the check stands a better chance of being placed square and evenly, in my experience. YMMV.

cbrick

10-20-2014, 10:43 AM

Rick, although the cup-base punch alleviates minor GC cants resulting from small sprue extrusions (if present), it also focuses all the seating force around the edge of the GC. By placing the increased amount of pressure on the outer perimeter, the check stands a better chance of being placed square and evenly, in my experience. YMMV.

Very possibly. I have and use both types and examine the seated check closely when accuracy counts. At any rate your punch should fit the sizing die closely to keep the edge of the check seated fully. As an example, don't use a 7mm punch on a 30 cal bullet. I even use a close fitting punch on plain base bullets to prevent "cupping" the base with softer alloys.

Rick

Bjornb

10-20-2014, 11:02 AM

So Rick, just to be crystal clear here, after seating your punched/flared checks on the bullet base, you run the bullet through your Star (I'd use a Lee) for crimp and size in one operation.

tomme boy

10-20-2014, 11:02 AM

cbrick, would it be beneficial to have a mold cut to have the gas check shank cut to 0.283" or smaller then? Or just have a punch made to open up the checks?

geargnasher

10-20-2014, 11:27 AM

Or you can design a bullet so that the check shank fits the gas check used in the first place. Just sayin'.

Gear

cbrick

10-20-2014, 11:34 AM

Or you can design a bullet so that the check shank fits the gas check used in the first place. Just sayin'.

Gear

That's true enough however, I prefer putting the little bit of taper to the sides of the check and making the bottom of the check completely flat. Probably a lot of ways to go about it, this was my solution. For one thing, designing a bullet as you suggest would give you "that" bullet where the check fit better, it would do nothing for my 70+ other molds.

Rick

geargnasher

10-20-2014, 11:36 AM

Bjorn, ask Larry if he'd mind if you posted #241 in the "high velocity with cast" thread in CB, it's a lot more topical there as it opens up several good points for discussion which will no doubt derail this thread (in a good way), and I wish his writeup wouldn't get ignored like it's being so far. Neck clearance, bullet shape entering the throat, amount of force =< alloy strength during engraving/swaging through throat (HUGE point), etc. I never had very good results getting HV from fast twists launching the bullet the way Larry does, but slow twists enable him to do more using different techniques. Two different ways of doing things, neither of them is the ONLY way. Larry, please reference my sig line quote by Char-Gar.

Gear

cbrick

10-20-2014, 11:38 AM

So Rick, just to be crystal clear here, after seating your punched/flared checks on the bullet base, you run the bullet through your Star (I'd use a Lee) for crimp and size in one operation.

Yes, size, crimp on check in one step. Where I do two steps is when oven heat treating where I size and crimp on the check with no lube, after HT I run them through another die .001" larger than the die that sized them to lube.

Rick

cbrick

10-20-2014, 11:44 AM

cbrick, would it be beneficial to have a mold cut to have the gas check shank cut to 0.283" or smaller then? Or just have a punch made to open up the checks?

Possibly but I would worry a bit about getting the shank a tad too small and not getting the crimp tight enough though I admit I haven't tried it.

Rick

cainttype

10-20-2014, 12:05 PM

Very possibly. I have and use both types and examine the seated check closely when accuracy counts. At any rate your punch should fit the sizing die closely to keep the edge of the check seated fully. As an example, don't use a 7mm punch on a 30 cal bullet. I even use a close fitting punch on plain base bullets to prevent "cupping" the base with softer alloys.

Rick

Exactly. To apply pressure evenly to the outer perimeter, the punch has to be closely fitted to the projectile.
When carefully sizing plain based projectiles I prefer flat punches for total base support. Very small cups on a mainly flat punch have never caused any issue, either, and I use either of them when processing larger quantities through an automated sizer.
Increased tolerances with the Lubemaster is standard practice, too, but we're not benchresting when we fire that bad boy up.

Doc Highwall

10-20-2014, 12:58 PM

Yes, size, crimp on check in one step. Where I do two steps is when oven heat treating where I size and crimp on the check with no lube, after HT I run them through another die .001" larger than the die that sized them to lube.

Rick

Rick, how do you keep the die from leading up or leaving tear marks on the bullet when sizing and crimping the gas check with no lube?

cbrick

10-20-2014, 01:10 PM

Rick, how do you keep the die from leading up or leaving tear marks on the bullet when sizing and crimping the gas check with no lube?

Unique. No, not the powder :mrgreen:. The little tub of Hornady case lube called unique. Just a little on your finger tips as you handle the bullet to set in the die is all it takes.

Rick

geargnasher

10-20-2014, 01:41 PM

Larry, the little button indicating "logged on" is green, you wrote that you couldn't log on through your home wireless network, but then mentioned just THIS topic? Ah, I see you viewing this thread now, try posting again...

Gear

RoyEllis

10-20-2014, 03:39 PM

I surely hope all this resolves quickly.....I haven't any really helpful info to add but I've already learned a LOT from this frank, open discussion along with the other thread. Please keep 'er going guys, I can do what you're attempting by PP boolits but I still have much to hear & learn about greasers going fast and where ya point them.

geargnasher

10-20-2014, 04:12 PM

Roy, I was trying to encourage the movement of some of these more generalized HV discussion topics to the HV thread in the Castboolits sub-forum, seems TommeBoy already had that idea, we're posting more of the discussion stuff there, but where ever it ends up is fine. It's really difficult to follow one project (this thread being dedicated to the XCB, bullets designed for it, load tests, etc.) Lots of pertinent data from other guns shooting the XCB-designed bullets too, but if we plug it all up with general theory and speculation it will be difficult to sort through later looking for something.

Gear

RoyEllis

10-20-2014, 04:38 PM

Ian, I've been reading & rereading many of the posts not just in this thread but also the HV thread. A few things I originally thought "Aw poo, it can't make that much difference" then I happened to see a members sig line "It only makes a difference if it does". Made me re-evaluate my thoughts and start testing them for myself, a real eye opener at times. I really appreciate all the experience being shared.

geargnasher

10-20-2014, 05:15 PM

Larry's test of his vs. Bjorn's bullets showed a case of "it does", something from which we can all benefit. Pointing out the particular inconsistencies and just exactly how they can affect group size and the discussions of ways to correct these defects help us all learn to be better booliteers, which is the whole point, I think. That's why I'm here, anyway.

Gear

No_1

10-20-2014, 06:05 PM

What happened to Larry's posts? Am I losing my mind or did they actually exist long enough for me to read them?

Poof . . .

I had to go back to my email trash folder to see if I really read that post. It was there. It's not here. It was. :veryconfu

Rick

If it's "only this topic" it wouldn't be the ISP, the only way I can see for the site to not be blocked but a single thread is would be for CastBoolits to have done it. Strange stuff goin on for sure.

Rick

Larry, the little button indicating "logged on" is green, you wrote that you couldn't log on through your home wireless network, but then mentioned just THIS topic? Ah, I see you viewing this thread now, try posting again...

Gear

Been tossing this around in my head since I read it. IPR?? Is CastBoolits the only web site blocked? Can you log onto any other such places? It sounds like a very anti-gun ISP (Internet Service Provider) blocked this site since you can log on anyplace but your home computers. I think that would be the first place I'd start looking. Don't know who your ISP is but I think I would be having a good heart felt chat with them ASAP.

Rick

I can assure everyone that Larry has not been blocked from this thread or this site. He posted twice to this thread yesterday around 6PM then requested Tim delete his post.

Robert

RED333

10-20-2014, 06:56 PM

Got to get more hours in a day to read all this, thanks much guys!!!

No_1

10-20-2014, 07:36 PM

Larry,

The only people here who can block IP's are Willy and me and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither of us have done that. The moderators can block you as a "spammer" but if they did then you would would be banned and not be able to log in from anywhere using your current id. You have done all the things on your end that I would have done. I will ask Willy to look at it and let you know what he finds.

Robert

Ford SD

10-20-2014, 07:41 PM

Larry is it cookies on your computer ?

Did you by chance block cookies for http://castboolits.gunloads.com

Love Life

10-20-2014, 07:42 PM

Probably just a bug somewhere, Larry.

Your last two posts were fantastic. So much proof and hard data and it really helps us.

Bjornb

10-20-2014, 07:58 PM

btroj

10-20-2014, 10:04 PM

Did a little sizing tonight. It is far easier to get checks to seat square with less effort if I first size in a 311 Lee sizer then lube and run thru a 309. Checks are more uniform and they seem to go on "nicer".

This is beginning to get "fiddely", I hate that. Damn

GabbyM

10-21-2014, 12:37 AM

Back a page to the nose first sizing discussion. I have a Saeco 30-150-FN than shoots wonderfully in a couple rifles. Have long suspected much of that consistent accuracy is due to how the bullet fits so nice into my Star .310" size die. I have thought for a few years much could be gained by profiling a size die to fit a specific bullet. To be true to cast boolits. We may want to stop at throating a size die to allow long body boolits to drop in far enough to center up. Carrying it to the Nth degree we'd be swaging a cast slug. Very few of my rifle boolits will easily run through a Star nose first sizer. Any of them would with a custom die.

btroj

10-21-2014, 02:00 PM

Went out and shot some today.

I did have something happen that hadn't before- mirage. Bad mirage off the barrel. Temps were 45 to 50 degrees so a barrel warm enough that you don't want to hold it for too long gives horrendous mirage. I can see a need for some sort of a mirage band or something.

I picked bullets a bit more carefully and played with getting checks on more square. Some checks ended up with bad spots on the read corner but that didn't seem to make a huge difference.

Bullets were all water dropped range scrap. No leading, 10 shot groups were all 2 to 3 inches- that size group seems quite easy to get. Velocities ranged from 2300 to 2430 fps. I don't think my rifle will get over 2550 with the 30 Sil and RE19. I have used up to 48 gr, need to see where it maxes out.

At this point I intend to focus more on bullet quality than anything else. I really think that is a huge limiting factor.

I use a .333 bushig in my Redding die, it needs just a slight hint of flair to let bullets seat. I seat long enough to let the throat finish wearing the bullet. Bullet pull is low enough that this requires minimal effort but bullets don't move easily with the fingers.

Best news of all- I found a partial box of Fed 210 match primers! At least a few hundred left so I can do some testing with those too.

Bjornb

10-21-2014, 04:30 PM

That's pretty good velocity in your 12 twist rifle! You seem to be where I'm at: starting to pay attention to the very small details that will make a difference. What about making a batch of bullets from some certified alloy? A couple of ingots of Roto Metals Hardball isn't very expensive. That will eliminate any questions about the range scrap make-up.

I'm getting ready to try RL19, the RL22 didn't produce anything spectacular.

Let me know if you want me to send you some of the NOE XCB bullets to try; the last couple batches came out pretty good. I could send you some as-cast and you can lube and size them yourself. Just say the word.

btroj

10-21-2014, 04:38 PM

I'm considering it but that could lead to another mould and that takes money from lathe tooling. Damn it, I hate these decisions!

I need to make a big batch of uniform range scrap. Just melt a couple hinder pounds together in 4 potful the. Combine equal amount from each pot in a second melting, voila, 200 pounds of uniform alloy.

I was pretty happy with the results I got from lowly range scrap. Water dropped it is pretty good stuff, I need to heat treat some and see if a few more BHn points makes any difference.

I see what Rick means by using a close fitting punch for sizing. My Lee 309 sizer has a smaller punch and it left some flashing on a few checks. I need a sizer with a more gradual taper I think, or just use the Star with my 313 sizer for seating checks.

Bjornb

10-21-2014, 05:31 PM

Sarge,
Superformance sits directly below the 4831s and a couple of places above RL22. The reason I'm looking forward to trying it is that it's a ball powder, same as H414/WW760, which several of us have now had good experience with.

Eutectic

10-21-2014, 05:32 PM

Bjornb,
is the Superformance after the RL-22 or is IMR or H 4350 before the Superformance? I cornfused my self. anyways looking forward to another range report.

I would like to see a burning rate chart placement for Superformance if anyone sees one. Hodgdon talks like it only fits special apps which may be their liability clause for that matter.

Eutectic

Eutectic

10-21-2014, 05:36 PM

Thanks Bjornb...... Looks like our ships passed during the night!

Eutectic