Feeding issue with a SWC in .45 ACP

[jayjay1]

Hello everybody,
my loved 45 won´t take my too loved 200gr. SWC sometimes.

What would make it run?
Setting it further out or setting it deeper in?

Shorter OAL might be better I suposse, not?

I´ve now got another mold for a 200 SWC, with a shorter nose from a buddy of mine, to try it out.
Could this help too?

Any thoughts welcome.

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, which "45"?

Which "45 SWC"?

If a M1911 has the feed ramp been open up for the SWC or is it the old original hardball feed ramp?

Exactly how is it "not taking" the SWC?

Larry Gibson

[jayjay1]

Ok,
the 45 is a CZ97 Sport with a Lothar-Walther - match - barrel.
It has a feeding ramp of course, but dunno if it is opened up, like you say.

With some bought SWC bullets I didn´t have that problem in the past.
I think the ramp is ok so far.

The SWC is now a HG 68 and I want to try the Lyman 452460 (shorter nose).

"Not taking", the slide stops and stays open a bit (sometimes more, sometimes less).
The bullet goes up mostly, but sometimes it hangs still on the ramp, with the bullet standing on the top of the chamber, sometims it is inside the chamber, but the slide doesn´t close fully.
I´ve tried a stronger spring, but this didn´t solve the problem.

Where should the bullet ride up the ramp?
On its nose or on its shoulder?

[C. Latch]

Got a picture of the bullet and what OAL are they loaded to?

[jayjay1]

Come on, you know HG 68, don´t you?
http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-h-g-68-200-swc.html

They are loaded out to 1,244" (31,60mm), slightly further out than the case shoulder.

[C. Latch]

I load that same bullet, but a bit longer. I think mine are 1.26ish and basically, the longer I load them the better they feed.

[Larry Gibson]

You have an integral ramp on the CZ75 and probably a match spec chamber.

You need to size the bullets .451 to prevent the "the slide stops and stays open a bit (sometimes more, sometimes less)". A Taper crimp die or the Lee FCD will also probably solve the problem (did with my match spec chamber). All your loaded rounds should pass the "plunk" test.

Also the integral ramp is steeper than that on the original M1911 which the H&G was designed for. Seating the bullet out to max OAL to pass the "plunk" test and to fit the magazine will probably help. Generally a shorter bullet won't help on the steeper integral feed ramps as the bullet nose will hit the roof of the chamber too far back to allow the rim to cam up under the extractor.

Larry Gibson

[DougGuy]

You need to do the "plunk" test on your reloads. If you do not have enough throat in the barrel to go into battery with a .452" boolit seated to recommended COA, then the barrel needs to be throated, or you size to .451" and see if those will work for you. Do NOT seat shorter than recommended COA without backing off your powder charge and working up to a safe load.

[DougGuy]

I have a Kahr CW45 with a Walther barrel that is match grade, tight chamber dimensions, will not chamber ANY style of .452" boolit so I use .451" without any issues.

Sry dbl post..

[Lonegun1894]

In my Springfield 1911, I had to go a little bit shorter OAL when I had the same issue, but a friends we had to go longer. Sorry, it's been years ago and I don't have those notes available right now. I would say try both longer and shorter and see which works better, but I wouldn't bother with either before doing the "plunk" test as recommended above. If the sizing is the issue, neither shorter or longer OAL will fix your problem.

[Ed_Shot]

I have a 2014 CZ 97B. Mine is an E Model from Cajun Gun Works. It has the stock barrel and I have perhaps 3K of the Lyman 452630 (200 gr SWC) thru it without a hint of a problem. I understand that CZ improved 97B feed ramp in 2013 to correct problems with feeding SWC's. I size to .452 and use a COAL of 1.245.

[bangerjim]

You have an integral ramp on the CZ75 and probably a match spec chamber.

You need to size the bullets .451 to prevent the "the slide stops and stays open a bit (sometimes more, sometimes less)". A Taper crimp die or the Lee FCD will also probably solve the problem (did with my match spec chamber). All your loaded rounds should pass the "plunk" test.

Also the integral ramp is steeper than that on the original M1911 which the H&G was designed for. Seating the bullet out to max OAL to pass the "plunk" test and to fit the magazine will probably help. Generally a shorter bullet won't help on the steeper integral feed ramps as the bullet nose will hit the roof of the chamber too far back to allow the rim to cam up under the extractor.

Larry Gibson

I played with my 1911's for quite a while until I asked Larry on a PM.

Followed his ideas (.451 & FCD) and ALL carts now "plunk" and cycle 100%. That is not only the boolit you are casting but ALL the 45's I cast!

My guns are match grade barrels too.


Try it B4 reaming your gun.

bangerjim

[jayjay1]

Thanks to everybody, great help inhere!

I will follow Larry´s advice, plunk test first, then go step by step.
:drinks:

[leadman]

I just bought a new 1911 and was having the same problem with the Lee 22 gr SWC. Went to longer overall length and it would feed but sometimes the slide did not seat forward. I sized the boolit to .451" from .452" and this helped. A tighter crimp finally cured the problem.

[jayjay1]

It is definetely a very small match spec chamber.

My slugged barrel said .4505", so I size my bullets to .452", using Magtech brass (CBC).

I´m using Taper crimp only on all my pistol loads, but am just crimping to the same dia, that the brass has where the bullet sits in it, so that it is straight, not crimped.



Generally a shorter bullet won't help on the steeper integral feed ramps as the bullet nose will hit the roof of the chamber too far back to allow the rim to cam up under the extractor.

Larry Gibson

But a shorter nose would, or not?

The nose of the Lyman 452460 is pretty shorter than the nose of the HG68.

[35remington]

One of the things I've always had trouble understanding is the "need" for a
tight chamber in an ordinary pistol. Other things that have to do with how the gun is put together mean the match chamber is about as useful as mammary glands on a bull.

[Char-Gar]

One of the things I've always had trouble understanding is the "need" for a
tight chamber in an ordinary pistol. Other things that have to do with how the gun is put together mean the match chamber is about as useful as mammary glands on a bull.

One of the first things a knowable pistolsmith does when a 45 comes into his shop with a match barrel or he is installing a "match barrel" in a pistol, is to run a standard reamer into the chamber and bring it to standard specs. This of course is for a working pistol and not a range only gun.

If a fellow wants a match pistol for the range, then expect it to be cranky. Unless a fellow is shooting matches where the last tiny smidge of accuracy might be important, these match barrels are a PITA.

[gpidaho]

My 45acp is far from fancy and is as it was when purchased, no up grades. It is a Ruger 97 DC. While it functions flawlessly with jacketed bullets it has always been a bit reluctant to accept cast ( this has me thinking that Larry is correct when he says size .451) As stated above the slide hangs up just short of going into full battery. I have played with C.O.L. up and down to no real advantage. Enter the much maligned Lee factory crimp die. Problem solved. GP

[35remington]

Gp, I also have a P97. The issue is no throat with these. It fortunately does not come with a match chamber but the no throat condition is a pain as well.

[bangerjim]

One of the things I've always had trouble understanding is the "need" for a
tight chamber in an ordinary pistol. Other things that have to do with how the gun is put together mean the match chamber is about as useful as mammary glands on a bull.

I am sorry sir, but I feel you may be totally wrong.

I have both standard and match grade barrels in several semi's and the high-grade barrels really make a difference in accuracy. Side -by-side comparisons have proven it to me!!!!!!!

The match grades do require more TLC in casting & loading that regular old semi's. But the improvement in groupings and accuracy is definitely worth it to me!! One just needs to do the research and spend the little money required to get ALL the carts into spec.

After mod'ing my semi loading processes, ALL my semi's cycle and shoot 100%.

Truth be known.......I still will take a good revolver over a semi any day!!!

The testimonies are on here from others that have been down this path and, after changing their loading techniques, they have achieved success.


bangerjim

[C. Latch]

One of the things I've always had trouble understanding is the "need" for a
tight chamber in an ordinary pistol. Other things that have to do with how the gun is put together mean the match chamber is about as useful as mammary glands on a bull.


'Match grade barrel' in a service-grade pistol is a selling point for the masses.

Kind of like racing aluminum wheels, Z-rated tires, and a 6-speed manual transmission stuffed into a Ford Pinto with a 4-cylinder motor.

[35remington]

BJ,give me a standard barrel that has no range queen feeding habits and I can easily outshoot a drop in match grade barrel if I pay attention to the other critical parts of the gun. Which count for far more than a match grade barrel. This is the better way to do it.

Having a barrel with less than a half thou clearance per side twixt bullet and chamber in a pistol that may be depended upon for self defense use is just crazy. If it's just a prissy range queen.....have at it.

[35remington]

If the marketing department has made a super tight chamber a selling point for a defense pistol, one might want to question the salesman. If it's just for use in sunny Saturday afternoons no harm is done. The harm occurs if the range is nowhere in sight.

The OP can best answer that question.

[35remington]

One must also not confuse barrel fit with chamber dimensions in assessing accuracy improvement. The chamber gets too much of the credit when fit is almost always responsible. Pay more attention to fit and a better gun will result with no downside. Avoid tight chambers in personal defense pistols like the plague.

[Larry Gibson]

Keep in mind what feeds in a standard M1911 may not feed in a "modern" 45 ACP especially if it has a steeper integral feed ramp.

Larry Gibson

[jayjay1]

One of the things I've always had trouble understanding is the "need" for a
tight chamber in an ordinary pistol. Other things that have to do with how the gun is put together mean the match chamber is about as useful as mammary glands on a bull.

It is about a match gun.

Well, the CZ97 maybe a CZ, but it is not the one we are talking here about.

The CZ97 Sport is very wellknown over here, a custom tuned 45, which is the winner in every precision test made from the specialized press over here.
Leaving competitors like LesBaer or STI behind.

Mine is deadly accurate, if the shooter does his part.
I could make 3rd places on the regionals over here twice in the last years, definetely my fault that it wasn´t more.

http://www.waffen-oschatz.de/Presse_CZ_75_97_Sport.html

[35remington]

Yes, but.....even a factory gun that is out of the ordinary cannot really see the difference between a standard chamber and a match chamber. "About" a match gun doesn't mean the factory gun is all that well fitted, nor does it mean that the match chamber is really necessary.

The limiting factor is how consistently the slide returns to battery, not the chamber. That and the fact that the barrel and slide are separate, and the sights are on the slide. Chamber benefits really show up when the barrel does not move in relation to the sights every shot. As in.....target 22's, for instance.

Match chambers get way too much credit on "loose" barrel guns.

[jayjay1]

A tight and aligned chamber is the key to a bullet which flies centered and aligned into the barrel throat.
I can´t move my barrel and my slide, when locked, in any way, not an idea of movement, nada, niente, rien.

Do you have a pistol that shoots sub 0,75"/30yards?
Ever shot one?

If you want tight groups, you need the right tool for.

If you just want a "BANG" if you pull the trigger, you are talking about a totally different subject.

[RG1911]

For my match 1911 in .45ACP, the 'smith did run a reamer into the chamber, which opened it a very small amount. It took him about 1 minute. Then, as other people have mentioned, I learned to seat the H&G #68 200-gr SWC a little long. If it's too short, you'll see that the tip hits the top of the chamber and jams there. A little longer, and the nose gets a little further in before hitting the chamber. It's at a shallower angle and continues feeding.

Make sure that your taper crimp die applies enough of a crimp.

I have a Wilson headspace gauge I use for all my match ammo, but dropping a round into the chamber usually works just as well.

Good luck,
Richard

[35remington]

Yes, I have a pistol that will outshoot that. It has both a fixed barrel and a match chamber. I have several others that will easily outshoot that with fixed barrels and standard chambers.

A standard barrel in a fixed rest, independent of the gun will outshoot a match barrel placed in a gun with separate slide/sights and barrel as yours is. Your barrel still moves fractionally when mated to the slide and the slide to the fame and it is this that leaves some accuracy on the table. Just the way it is. Said movement can't be eliminated or the gun would not function.

Shooting against an automatic with a fixed barrel and sights would be a losing proposition given both having similar chambers and likely dissimilar chambers as well. The accuracy robbing variable return to battery is by far the biggest weak point, not the chamber.

My point is really this: too many pistols have match chambers to no purpose. Fit is more important than chamber for any pistol used as a working tool for uses to which a pistol is put. If it's just a paper punch then tightening the chamber is not an inconvenience that will matter as it is not a critical issue.

[OptimusPanda]

I had had trouble feeding in my sw1911 with the lee 200gr swc. At first I had it loaded out to 1.230 or 1.240. I started loading them a bit longer at 1.255 and have not had a problem with it since.