Good first muzzleloader on a budget.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

First, my budget is preferably under 200, but can stretch it to 300. I've shot my dads cva bobcat with 100 grain loads when I was 12 and I handled it easily. I'm 14 now and am pretty sure I can handle 150 grain loads. I already have all the supplies I'll need, just looking for the rifle. The cheapest I could find is the cva buckhorn for 125 bucks. Is it worth the extra money to get a wolf or another one? I don't care if it's traditional or inline, and I will be using it on deer within 150 yards.

[Beagle333]

What's wrong with the Bobcat? You can pick one up for about 80 bucks, and 100 grains is easily more than you'd need. If I recall correctly, you can't get more than about 120 grains of powder to completely burn in the distance/time travelled in a .50 caliber barrel anyway.

[Good Cheer]

Sending you a PM.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

What's wrong with the Bobcat? You can pick one up for about 80 bucks, and 100 grains is easily more than you'd need. If I recall correctly, you can't get more than about 120 grains of powder to completely burn in the distance/time travelled in a .50 caliber barrel anyway.

It's my dad's, I'm lookng for my own.

[Beagle333]

Sorry... I was implying that you might buy another one, just like that one. :cool: (if you wanted to keep it low priced)

[indianadeerhunter2018]

Sorry... I was implying that you might buy another one, just like that one. :cool: (if you wanted to keep it low priced)

Oh that makes since. If I could find one like it I'd want one. I don't know where to pick one up though.

[Janoosh]

I'm not flaming you but there is diminishing returns when shooting black powder. Only so much velocity can be attained in a certain barrel length and 120-150 grns seems excessive to me. Ive used 80 grns PRB in a thompson center hawken to 100 yds and there were two holes in the deer. I now shoot 80 grns in a quick twist barrel hawkin and a sabot (44 cal boolit) and have taken deer to @120 yds, although I prefer to get closer.
I sure some old timers will chime in with a clearer explanation about barrel lenght and black powder burn rates.

[waksupi]

That large of a load is WAY too much. If you shoot that much where I am range master, I would probably remove you from the course.
With a muzzle loader, find the most accurate load, and hunt with it. I only shoot 95 gr.fff in my .62 rifle, 75 gr.fff in my .54. and 45 gr. fff in my .40. All of them will kill a deer with no fuss, and the .54 and .62 can handily deal with elk and bear.

I would look for a Lyman Great Plains rifle. It may cost a bit more, but would be worth it.

[Pb2au]

+1 on the Lyman Great Plains rifle.
Fun rifle, accurate and it won't break the bank. If I didn't like mine so much I sell it to ya.
Keep an eye on the papers, gun shops and the like. They seem to always turn up.
Good luck to ya!

[indianadeerhunter2018]

That large of a load is WAY too much. If you shoot that much where I am range master, I would probably remove you from the course.
With a muzzle loader, find the most accurate load, and hunt with it. I only shoot 95 gr.fff in my .62 rifle, 75 gr.fff in my .54. and 45 gr. fff in my .40. All of them will kill a deer with no fuss, and the .54 and .62 can handily deal with elk and bear.

I would look for a Lyman Great Plains rifle. It may cost a bit more, but would be worth it.

On the cva website it says the buckhorn will handle 150 grain magnum loads "with ease". And the new remington is based around a 200 grain powder charge. Why would you say it's too much?

[725]

I use several of those Bobcats in a Black Powder course I teach in a local summer camp. Fantastic rifles. Some have well over 5,000 rounds through them. Punching paper at 25 yards, I use 50 gr. of FFg and that is quite snappy for the purpose. If I'm not mistaken, the gun is rated for a max of 100 gr.FFg. FFFg is even more pressure. Like stated above, 80 gr or 70 grs with a round ball will pass through both sides of a deer with ease. Don't go for the bigger is better stuff. After about 75 grs., you will see a decrease in accuracy. Experiment to find the most accurate load for that gun and stick with it. Trying to make it a hot rod isn't the way to go. Happy hunting and be safe.
Your buckhorn is a nice rifle and is a step up from the bobcat. Enjoy it, and follow whatever the company says to do. Just don't shy away from the lighter loads as a matter of course.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

After taking a look at my dad's bobcat I noticed the barrel is rusted internally. And I think it's over bored because I had to put 3 patches on a .490 round ball in irder for it to fit properly. Is this going to be a problem with most used guns? I know my dad hadn't used it in 3 or 4 years, so will I have to regularly disassemble and clean the rifle even if I don't shoot it often?

[Janoosh]

Patch thickness varies greatly. I use 010 in my 50 cal flintlock with a 495 ball. I use 018 with a 490 ball in my hawkin 50 cal. It all depends what your gun likes and performs best with. All trial and error. And range time.
As to the powder charge, I was taught that you load and shoot until the projectiles no longer rise on target and the load is accurate. That load will be what your gun tells you it is. Good luck...and above all else...be safe and have fun.

[starmac]

You need to clean them every time you shoot them. I made the mistake of not cleaning mine ONCE for about a week after I shot it.
That said, good servicable used ones can be picked up and pretty reasonable.
Don't overlook the Cabellas store brand either. I have had a 54 cal for close to 20 years, and it will shoot better than I do. I have just in the last week purchased another one right here on the swapping and selling. Total cost including shipping was 186 bucks, just today purchased a 50 cal TC scout, which are loved by some, and hated by some, but I like them and they work well for left handed shooters. Total cost on it is 225 bucks to my door. The nice thing is there is no ffl cost on them, at least in most states.
A couple of weeks ago, I bought a bobcat from a member here, I forget the price, but it was reasonale, he was gracious enough to clean it before he shipped it, and found his brother had not cleaned it after shooting, so tore up my check instead (with my approval) of shipping it.
They are probably the cheapest legal fun a guy can get into, and completly capable of taking any game you care too.
I like 54, would actually like to go bigger, but if I was in your position and location, I would look for a 50 cal, it will do anything the state of indiana has to offer, and components are everywhere for them.
I will go with no reason to go with all the powder you can pack in them. When I first got into them, it was to hunt elk, and I stupidly thought I needed magnum charges, the only thing I gained out ofthe extra powder was a swelled up head thathurt for two weeks. lol

[waksupi]

On the cva website it says the buckhorn will handle 150 grain magnum loads "with ease". And the new remington is based around a 200 grain powder charge. Why would you say it's too much?

Just because it can "handle" it, it doesn't mean it's a good idea. THOSE ARE PROOF LOADS! I would pretty much guarantee it is not the most accurate load. It sounds like they got that information from George Nonte's muzzle loader book, which should be collected and burned from all of the unsafe loads he has in it.
But, what do I know? I've only been shooting them for 40 plus years, and building them for 30 +.

[wgr]

i shoot 70grains of 2f with a patch round ball and there is not a deer in the state it wo,nt shoot through. even shot one with 50 grains and got a pass through. 80 grains in my 54

[hc18flyer]

+ one the Lymans Great Plains, super rifles. I also have a Thompson Center New Englander, fitted with fiber optic sights for 50 year old eyes and low light conditions that works GREAT in a tree stand. I too have been muzzleloading for 25+ years. 70 grains of BP over a roundball or 80 behind a ball-et/250 REAL bullet is perfect deer medicine! It is truly easy to keep your smokepole clean. I have never used oil in any form, or any type of cleaner! Find a good 'bore butter' or shooting lube and stick with it. When you get home, use hot water and more lube, dry it out, and lube it again. Keep your powder dry and 'watch yer topknot'! Flyer

[hornady308]

For a good muzzleloader for under $200, I'll take any used TC or Investarms sidelock that's in good condition. Investarms makes the Lyman and Cabela's rifles. For deer, any of the standard calibers from .45 to .54 will work fine. I've always loved the TC Renegade due to the relatively compact size combined with the stout stock.

[triggerhappy243]

115278Indianadeerhunter.......if you are looking for a used rifle, then this tip and tool is worth the cost of admission. you can buy this cool little bore light for muzzleloaders at most shops that carry a good supply of accessories. made by CVA and Traditions, it is a little mini flashlight you drop down the bore of the rifle. lights up nice and you can see if there is any rust/pitting. When going shopping carry a patch jag and a few clean patches. dry swab the bore and drop this light down the bore.... lighted end towards the muzzle. you can see any pitting all the way down to the breech. I swear by them.... worth its weight in gold.

[Pb2au]

After taking a look at my dad's bobcat I noticed the barrel is rusted internally. And I think it's over bored because I had to put 3 patches on a .490 round ball in irder for it to fit properly. Is this going to be a problem with most used guns? I know my dad hadn't used it in 3 or 4 years, so will I have to regularly disassemble and clean the rifle even if I don't shoot it often?

More is not necessarily better as a good general rule.
I have played around with inline guns, (and in fact have a Remington 700 inline going up for sale soon) and yeah, you can maintain some semblance of performance with stout loads of powder and 'modern' projectiles. What Waksupi was pointing out is that in general, it simply both not required and can impede accuracy in many cases.

Where some shooters may prefer different granulation of powder, (2F or 3F) in almost all cases, the total charge tends to stay well below a hundred grains. My Lyman shoots extremely well at 70 grains of 2f powder, .490" round ball and a patch. Another 50 caliber rifle I owned was a joy to shoot at 55 grains. Under the sound advice of those here, I found my 20ga trade musket shoots round ball extremely well at 65 grains of 3F. For reference in this case, the ball for that gun is .600"
See the pattern emerging?
I hope this helps!

[waksupi]

More is not necessarily better as a good general rule.
I have played around with inline guns, (and in fact have a Remington 700 inline going up for sale soon) and yeah, you can maintain some semblance of performance with stout loads of powder and 'modern' projectiles. What Waksupi was pointing out is that in general, it simply both not required and can impede accuracy in many cases.

Where some shooters may prefer different granulation of powder, (2F or 3F) in almost all cases, the total charge tends to stay well below a hundred grains. My Lyman shoots extremely well at 70 grains of 2f powder, .490" round ball and a patch. Another 50 caliber rifle I owned was a joy to shoot at 55 grains. Under the sound advice of those here, I found my 20ga trade musket shoots round ball extremely well at 65 grains of 3F. For reference in this case, the ball for that gun is .600"
See the pattern emerging?
I hope this helps!


I would say if he needs 3-4 patches on a .490 ball, he has a .54, instead of a .50. Put the right size ball in the darned thing.

[Pb2au]

I would say if he needs 3-4 patches on a .490 ball, he has a .54, instead of a .50. Put the right size ball in the darned thing.

Excellent point Waksupi, I kinda walked right past that one.......
Yeah, getting the correct sized ball is a nice place to start.

OP,
I'm not trying to be snarky, but I am guessing that you are just starting down the path of muzzleloaders. As such, please consider we are here to help out with what we can.
I would suggest the following.
1) Clearly identify the make, model and caliber of the muzzle loader you currently have access to. Maybe we can point you in the correct direction with that. I know you want your own, and I fully respect that. But in the meantime, maybe you can get up to speed with what you have available.
2) Start gathering info on the basics of muzzleloading. I speaking in this case of traditional patch and ball loading, as this seems to be the direction you are looking from what I have read here. Let us know what you have at hand, and hopefully we can fill in the gaps as you go along.

[kopperl]

If you are still looking for a cheap inline, pm me at usmcret@live.com.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

I would say if he needs 3-4 patches on a .490 ball, he has a .54, instead of a .50. Put the right size ball in the darned thing.

On the barrel it says "Connecticut Valley Arms Bobcat .50 caliber" so I know it's a 50

[Garyshome]

I might have to get one!...Thanks for the post

[Pb2au]

On the barrel it says "Connecticut Valley Arms Bobcat .50 caliber" so I know it's a 50

Well, that certainly creates a bit of a mystery doesn't it?
I would say to start, get a hold on a measuring implement of some sort. If you can get a micrometer, that would be awesome. If not that, then a pair of decent calipers will do in a pinch.
Measure the ball you are using, then the patches. Something is undersized, you just need to figure out what. Normally, a .50cal will use a .490" ball and around a 0.010" thick patch. Please understand the patch thickness required can vary from gun to gun.
Moving forward in looking for your own muzzle loader, again start hitting the gun shops and pawn shops. i am sure you will be able to get one for a modest price.
If you can get a light, just peak down the muzzle and get an idea of the condition of the bore. If it looks like a rusty sewer pipe, then keep on looking for a different gun. It is possible to rehab abused barrels, but for now I would suggest keeping your life simple.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

Does cva have some type of warranty where if the barrel is **** they'll replace it?

[indianadeerhunter2018]

I don't know why they blanked that it said c r a p

[indianadeerhunter2018]

And I no longer intend to use a charge over 85 grains

[starmac]

I would not worry too much about what size the barrel actually is, just get balls that will fit properly with a 10 through 18 patch, and should be good to go. It always takes some experienting with balls and different patch thickness.

[indianadeerhunter2018]

It worked fine with Hornady sabots

[Janoosh]

Hornady sabots are what in use in my 50 cal quick twist Hawkins. That and a pure lead 429/430 sized boolit @ 240 grns with 80 grns of powder. It will go through and through any deer.
Great on crows over a gut pile..tooo.!!!

[Pb2au]

CVA most likely will not warranty a barrel destroyed by neglect.

[waksupi]

I don't know why they blanked that it said c r a p

That is just our beloved software doing what it kinda does best.

[triggerhappy243]

I re-read all the posts and some points come out that need addressing. a .490 ball needing 3 patches? over-bored for sure.... maybe a 54 cal. Powder charge....... no need for anything over 90 gr. charge.... period. Many here have made the great point to shoot what is most accurate, not what is the fastest or largest powder charge. I would buy the best rifle I could afford. same way with tools.

If you find a used sidelock with a rusted out barrel, you could get a replacement barrel for it. offer $25 to50 bucks for the stock, trash the barrel, buy a new one and you have a new rifle.

[starmac]

Or send the barrel to hoyt. From what I have read, bis bore jobs are better than most new barrels, and you get the twist you want,

[Boogieman]

I would say if he needs 3-4 patches on a .490 ball, he has a .54, instead of a .50. Put the right size ball in the darned thing.
OP could be using cleaning patches for shooting. CVA barrels vary in size. could try a .495 ball & a .018 - .022 patch UNTREATED cotton duck works good in a over size bore

[451 Pete]

Indianadeer hunter 2018,

These fellas have given you some pretty good information. Listen to them because they know what they are talking about. Good used muzzle loading rifles can be found here in Indiana. If you live in the southeastern part of the state the big fall shoot will be starting at Friendship Indiana on Saturday the 13th of Sept. A lot of rifles meeting your budget will be for sale there in the commercial row. Maybe you can get your dad, mom or an older brother to take you.
As was mentioned above in one of the posts you might want to get a bore light to check the inside of the barrel. ( A less expensive way is to go to a local tackle shop and look for one of the small L.E.D lights that are used in a lighted bobber and those will fit into any caliber bore.. even the small .32 squirrel rifles. )
On the issue of needing 3 patchs with that round ball in the bore of the Bobcat if you can find a micrometer or a venire caliper great, measure the round ball and see what it measures ... correct size should be .490 ... if you don't have access to those tools see if dad has a 1/2 inch nut out in the garage. A .490 round ball should just clear to go thru a .50 or 1/2 inch nut with only a very little bit of clearance between those threads and the sides and the round ball ... if you have more than just a little clearance you may have got ahold of some .45 caliber balls ( .440 in diameter ) ... replace them with the correct size and the rifle will probably shoot well enough to hunt with.
Start on the low side with your powder charge ( I am assuming you are using a loose powder not pellets ) and work your way up in 5 grain increases until you see a good accurate load or group of shots. If you use that to hunt with it will be more than enough power for you to take a deer.
Even if you only shoot your rifle for one shot make sure that it is completely cleaned. More good muzzle loading rifles are ruined by not cleaning than anything else. If you get into that habit your rifle will last for a very long time ... it is doubtful if you can wear it out in your lifetime. If it is going to sit for any length of time make sure it is also thoroughly oiled. I like to go back in a couple of days and check for anything I might have missed ( like the backside of the hammer on a side lock ) just so I don't have any problems when I want to take it out to shoot again.
Oh yeah, I want to wish you the very best of luck with your hunting this fall . Have fun.


Hope this helps .... Pete

[wgr]

there is a tc. tree hawk listed over on graybeard for 200 bucks. says its unfired 50 cal.

[OverMax]

Watch your local newspaper adds. Sunday's especially. Lots of advertizing and sales on all firearms this time of year. But before hand. Know what your interested in and there/its usual asking price. When you see your rifle of choice in a sales add at a better than expected price. You know what you have to do i.e. buy it.

You'd be surprised how many here use reduced powder charges and harvest animals every year with such charges. Get yourself a rifle and instead of asking questions {after a little shooting experience} You'll be commenting answers instead.

[big bore 99]

I agree with Friendship. Quite a place for anything muzzle loading. Your most accurate load will be far under the max. It will still have more than enough power to take any deer properly hit. I sometimes shoot a .58 cal. H&A underhammer. Have a couple molds, the biggest is 600 gr. hollow base. 75 gr of 2f will do a number
on a 4X4 at 50 yds.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Indian your getting good advise here

I teach 4H muzzle loading , the program limits the kids to a max of 60gr and that hadn't been an issue hitting the target at 100 meters in a 45, 50 or 54

traditions , bobcats , cva's they are not bad guns

We have a bobcat used in the program , and while i am fixing issues with some of the other "better" guns it is firing shot after shot after shot.

cleaning , anything black powder needs to be cleaned the same day you shot it and thoroughly , most use hot soapy water , then dry all the parts then re-oil

patches , I use .015" pillow ticking I buy it at jo-ann fabrics , I take my caliper in and measure it as i have purchased .022 pillow ticking once and traded it off as i could not get it down the barrel around a .490 ball it is OK to have a thicker patch as needed but you want to try and get to just one patch for consistency

back to cleaning , this is the number one , problem with muzzle loaders , generally people get sold some mirical product at the store and think it is like cleaning a smokeless gun , it is not you are dealing with very corrosive salts you have to get all the fouling out and flush the salts from the metal with water then get all parts oiled

Thompson are good guns with fairly easy to find used parts and accessories as are the lyman guns

a muzzle loader "the person" is very much a marksmen he has to be there are no second shots , a mechanic he has to work on his own gun every time it is used , a relaoder every charge is measured and assembled with care and consistency to get the reliability and accuracy needed. and a bit of a historian , you have to learn the why behind some of it.

there are a lot of people who , shoot a muzzle loader that are not "muzzle loaders" they are season extenders , they buy a setup and buy a load in compressed pellets , and a bullet in a plastic wrapper , they put a and b into c and it goes boom they make sure the sight is relatively close and go after deer in the muzzle loading season , then they often forget to clean or don't clean properly and the gun works maybe for a few years it is put in a closet because is is to much work

either is fine , as long as you clean and are safe

season extenders want to buy more days of hunting and often won't work up a load , they just pop some pelets or put in what the book says is max and think 6 inches at 50 yards is just muzzle loader accuracy and live with it


have fun with it , it does not need to be very expensive as most things you can make on the cheap , your gun is your biggest investment and if treated right can last a life time , I tent to look towards parts availability when buying

I know traditions and lyman still have parts , others you can get reproduction parts for from trackofthewolf.com

like others have pointed out a good bore is first , then the hammer should sit strait on the nipple , stocks should be sound a free of cracks , thats the big money most else is small stuff as long as they are clean and free of major corotion.

feel free to post pics of anything your looking at if you find one in a shop and want to find out how much it would cost to fix somthing you see off , these guys are great and can tell you right where to find the part and how to fit it best and what not to do.

a horn and powder and measure and cleaning stuff does add up but can all be purchased a little hear and a little there and some of it can be made if your inclined

I know i paid 99 dollars for my first muzzle loader , then went to the store and bought powder 20 dollars , conicals almost 20 dollars , a short starter 8 dollars, a range/cleaning rod 15 dollars , caps 10 dollars , cleaning gel - total waste of money 7 dollars , patches 4 dollars when i was all done i suddenly had a 99 dollar gun with 99 dollars in stuff to make it fire I wondered what i had gotten into

I started as a season extender sort of , but with loose powder 777 becasue i had done some home work , I knew I wanted to measure loads and find what was accurate for me , i used hornady great plains conicals , nice swagged bullet , then hornady discontinued the 410gr flat nose connical i was using , i bought some of the 385 but the price kept going up , the a co-worker loaned me a mold and i cast my first boolits , lee reals , with a single cavity mold , the lead was scrap heated in a 1 dollar sauce pan i bought at good will and an old soup ladle to pour , I was hooked , years later i cast for several cartridge calibers , .457 .440 .490 round balls as well as some conicals

always keep learning and you will never be bored

[Janoosh]

+1 GreencountyPete.
My friends and I.have a saying, " What you pay for the gun,...be prepared to pay that much for accessories, ...and half the bullets will be garbage."
We sell off most of the unwanted projectiles, minies, maxies, sabots, etc.
When you find what works...buy more of the same.
Good luck to you.

[waksupi]

Stick with patched round balls, instead of throwing away money. They can, have, and will do the job.

[starmac]

Stick with patched round balls, instead of throwing away money. They can, have, and will do the job.

Agree 100%, 14 years old on a limited budget, this is about as cheap as a guy can shoot.

[triggerhappy243]

I second the motion too. That is where I started too. no regrets.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

+1 GreencountyPete.
My friends and I.have a saying, " What you pay for the gun,...be prepared to pay that much for accessories, ...and half the bullets will be garbage."
We sell off most of the unwanted projectiles, minies, maxies, sabots, etc.
When you find what works...buy more of the same.
Good luck to you.


well luck or not I had a great load with the hornady great plains bullet and 90gr 777 that shot accurate and would penitrate a deer almost end for end , I shot one that way once when a good size do turned and looked back at me from a trail , the bullet hit just above the tail plowed 8-9 inches of spine then went down and throught eh chest i found it just inside the skin just forward of 3-4 broken ribs , I was actually aiming for the back of the neck and hit a little lower than i planned but it was all over for her right there

but a .490 round ball will do you fine for a fraction of the cost unless you need long distance work then i would probably explore paper patched colonials

[Janoosh]

Once again GreenCountyPete, true words.
A young man, with a very limited budget, could do no better than patch and ball and a reasonable load of powder.