Cast bullet loading failure andsolution for 30-30 Win

[greenwart]

I created some of the ugliest cartridges and found the solution. Eager to test out some pig loads I cast some Lee C309-170-F's and proceeded to assemble the cartidges. USing the Lyman seating die I produced the most disappointing product imaginable. Shaved bullets grooved top and telescoped.
114744
I went to bed in frustration. This morning with a clear head I decided to try again and found the the lyman seating die has a long neck section which was compressing the neck while seating which shaved the bullets and created to much force on the case shoulder. Well get rid of the long neck by using a 308 bullet seater and swapped the 308 top punch with one from an 8mm set. Success on the right. No bullet shaving, no grooves on topno telescoping and a very slight crimp. All is well again.

Bob

[44man]

Perfect example of why I done tole you so that dies are not all equal. Why I switched to Hornady dies. I grew up with RCBS until I found they did not make accuracy. Bought a Lyman neck size die for my 45-70 and a .460 boolit will fall in on it's own. Lee is a joke most times. Redding and Bonanza work but some need fixed.
Why do you need other caliber dies to make 30-30's?

[greenwart]

If I have them and they work effectively for cast bullets I will use them. The Lyman seating die work well for J word, but is disaster for cast. I do not have many Lyman dies mostly RCBS, so I was surprised at the length and diameter clearance of the neck section. This caused a problem with the cast bullets sized to 0.311 vs. 0.308 for j words. I basically shaved off the lube bands. The Lee die had virtually no neck section so there was no shaving of the bullet as it was seated. I also like to solve problems.

Bob

[james nicholson]

I had the same problem, until I bought a Lyman "M" die.

[dondiego]

I have done that to some 30-30 ammo, then I correctly adjusted the seating die and fixed the problem.

[44man]

If I have them and they work effectively for cast bullets I will use them. The Lyman seating die work well for J word, but is disaster for cast. I do not have many Lyman dies mostly RCBS, so I was surprised at the length and diameter clearance of the neck section. This caused a problem with the cast bullets sized to 0.311 vs. 0.308 for j words. I basically shaved off the lube bands. The Lee die had virtually no neck section so there was no shaving of the bullet as it was seated. I also like to solve problems.

Bob
You must solve your own problems. I can't say enough about that. those that do and help, need respect. This is a hard sport and takes much thought because we face so much that is not equal.
It is not easy to make molds or dies for what we do but when a company makes the decision, we can get the wrong things.

[gpidaho]

I have the 30-30 RCBS two die set and have had no problems with it even when seating boolits with the added girth of powder coat. I do also use a Lyman M-die in the process. Some seating dies just aren't made with cast in mind. Ive had to open up the channel in Lee dies to keep them from shaving or swaging lead. Redding tooling has always been a personal favorite. GP

[greenwart]

Producing and using cast bullets can be both frustrating and rewarding. Luckily we have a great people and resources here to help. It is trial and error and sometimes I forget the error part and get frustrated. What I do receive is a great sense of satisfaction when the cartridge looks and performs as good or better than what I can go and purchase in wal-mart.

Bob

[John Boy]

The Lyman seating die work well for J word, but is disaster for cast.
greenwart ... Not if you know how reload cast bullets!
Steps:
* FL size the brass - be sure to lightly lube the outside of the cases
* Measure base diameter bullet. With an expansion die, expand the case 0.001 to 0.002 less than base diameter and bell the case mouth
* Seat the bullet case previously primed and charged to SAMMI specifications
While your at it, READ ... http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV7nSVf9TgwYApwUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1409271379/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.lasc.us%2fBrennan_6-1_CastBulletReloading.htm/RK=0/RS=qq9hXtdu7FpEDxfBXRvitqLPywg-

Then, come back and post how much you learned instead of posting how much you don't know!

[101VooDoo]

Had the same problem in my first attempts to load 30-30. The seating/crimp die was removing the 'bell' way before the boolit was at proper seating depth. The boolit would clunk, clunk, clunk on every band as it was seated.

The solution was to seat and crimp in two different stages.

Bought a second set of used dies (old Lyman All-Americans; great dies) and crimped as a separate operation.

I've got an old Texan turret press, so I can just seat, rotate the head and crimp.

You can accomplish the same thing by backing out the seating die, seating all the boolits, and then turning the die back down to crimp.

[44man]

Some say turn as you seat, guess what, the boolit is already off. What magic will make it straight? Why does crimping separate make it better?

[rosewood]

Some say turn as you seat, guess what, the boolit is already off. What magic will make it straight? Why does crimping separate make it better?

I started on a Dillon 550B which their dies are setup for separate crimp step. So I have gotten in the habit of using the separate crimp. I have used the die that does both, but it adds another dimension of adjusting the dies and also requires you to have them all trimmed the same length. From a mathematical standpoint, separate is basic geometry, when you do a combo seat crimp, you are getting into calculus. If you use a separate crimp, namely the Lee Factory Crimp die, you don't have to have the brass the exact same length and you don't run the risk of bulging the necking because it wasn't adjusted exactly right. Just my 2 cents.

[williamwaco]

I have the 30-30 RCBS two die set and have had no problems with it even when seating boolits with the added girth of powder coat. I do also use a Lyman M-die in the process.

+1.

DITTO on every word.

I also use the Lee 170 grain bullet sized .311 Prints 1.25" at 100 yd.

[Dan Cash]

greenwart ... Not if you know how reload cast bullets!
Steps:
* FL size the brass - be sure to lightly lube the outside of the cases
* Measure base diameter bullet. With an expansion die, expand the case 0.001 to 0.002 less than base diameter and bell the case mouth
* Seat the bullet case previously primed and charged to SAMMI specifications
While your at it, READ ... http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV7nSVf9TgwYApwUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1409271379/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.lasc.us%2fBrennan_6-1_CastBulletReloading.htm/RK=0/RS=qq9hXtdu7FpEDxfBXRvitqLPywg-

Then, come back and post how much you learned instead of posting how much you don't know!

Sir,
Your comment is rude and uncalled for.

[HangFireW8]

I invested in a whole set of M die spuds and every M body, then stopped using them. The little sizer step pushes down on the unsupported case neck and pushes it off axis. 30-30 was one of the worst offenders. I think they are OK for short sturdy or straightwall cartridges. The induced eccentricity for tall bottlenecks was generally more than my cull point of .003-4".

I now find it is best to only size the neck as little as possible in the first place; this rules out all the major brand FL and NK sizing dies.

I thought I was going to bring this new-found knowledge to the forum, but a quick search found that Felix had been saying the same thing all along.

I had Buckshot make me a 30-30 bushing die.

[101VooDoo]

Some say turn as you seat, guess what, the boolit is already off. What magic will make it straight? Why does crimping separate make it better?

The seating/crimp die was removing the 'bell' way before the boolit was at proper seating depth. The boolit would clunk, clunk, clunk on every band as it was seated.

Makes it better by not removing the 'bell' or 'flare' before the boolit's fully seated in the case. :confused:

[JWFilips]

Sorry Guys,
I was interested in this thread ........but now days there always seems to be a snide remark or something to spoil it. Never used to be like this.
Was voicing a generalized opinion based on what I have been seeing here recently ...not toward anyone in particular. Just too many good threads seem to go sour these days.

[44man]

The seating/crimp die was removing the 'bell' way before the boolit was at proper seating depth. The boolit would clunk, clunk, clunk on every band as it was seated.

Makes it better by not removing the 'bell' or 'flare' before the boolit's fully seated in the case. :confused:
What I said, made for jacketed and a larger boolit with dies too small inside will do that. Jacketed generally don't need a flare so it is not planned for by the die maker. You can have 2 die sets from the same company and 1 will work, the other not.
Most 30-30 dies use a .308" while we need .311" most times.
Another reason I like Hornady, uses a small boolit guide that is easy to lap so a flared case or larger boolit will enter. I did not have to touch my 30-30 die, works as is.
I made my own flare tool that fits an old RCBS expander die body.114819
Here you can see a flared case and .311" boolit are perfect fits. You can check your die and fix them.

[44man]

If the boolit guide portion of your die is so small a boolit can't go through, you might not even reach the nose punch so it continues to try and seat when the flare is also squeezed out. You can mash the shoulder. You might also be sizing the boolit.
Adjusting the die is NOT the answer. You take the die so far out of adjustment you can't reach the crimp portion.
I am also correct that if a boolit starts crooked, it will not get straight by turning it.
But like was inferred, I have too many posts to know what I am saying. Over 61 years of accuracy loading, no wonder some of the best have left! I too wonder why I go to the trouble of helping????114827114828 Research my 30-30 groups from the Marlin at 100 yards. three shots on the can, 5/16". The coins shot at 100 with a 30-30 PISTOL, Tender by the way.
No wonder frustration sets in.

[RED333]

Yep, done it my self, but with 7mm RM, M die is a wonderful thing.

[44man]

I invested in a whole set of M die spuds and every M body, then stopped using them. The little sizer step pushes down on the unsupported case neck and pushes it off axis. 30-30 was one of the worst offenders. I think they are OK for short sturdy or straightwall cartridges. The induced eccentricity for tall bottlenecks was generally more than my cull point of .003-4".

I now find it is best to only size the neck as little as possible in the first place; this rules out all the major brand FL and NK sizing dies.

I thought I was going to bring this new-found knowledge to the forum, but a quick search found that Felix had been saying the same thing all along.

I had Buckshot make me a 30-30 bushing die.
This shows knowledge learned, not read. Good man but watch your post count!!! :veryconfu
"M" dies help NOTHING! Wrong dies will iron out the step and you lose case tension anyway if they don't.
Nobody understands bent shoulders either. Over sizing and over expanding just flies over the head.
Boy, this place gets tough! Starting to sound like other sites.

[HangFireW8]

This shows knowledge learned, not read.

That's my problem, I read, then I go and learn the hard way. It is expensive and time consuming but once learned stays learned. Then I have to be careful not to assume what I just learned applies too broadly. Hand loading and cast in particular is full of "works here but not there".

44man I am sure the post count comment was not directed at you but rather at another poster in this thread who tried to be authoritative, take a look back and you'll see what I mean.

Keep up the good work, I enjoy your posts.

[44man]

That's my problem, I read, then I go and learn the hard way. It is expensive and time consuming but once learned stays learned. Then I have to be careful not to assume what I just learned applies too broadly. Hand loading and cast in particular is full of "works here but not there".

44man I am sure the post count comment was not directed at you but rather at another poster in this thread who tried to be authoritative, take a look back and you'll see what I mean.

Keep up the good work, I enjoy your posts.
You earn what you say but only true work with experience counts and I did not know who the comment was directed at. I am usually the recipient. Yes it is tough after being banned from so many sites by telling the truth.
You have a place with my respect. I have a problem with bashing anyone even if not me. All needed is discussion. Sometimes proof but that will get you in trouble.
Need to explain that what is learned is for all to try. I don't work this hard for me, it is for everyone. Just why would I neglect anyone? "M" dies have never shot better or the Lee FCD. Sorry, like a fairy to steer a boolit.
So many statements that are just wrong and it does hurt. It causes others to look the wrong way.
Cast will shoot better then jacketed.
I love to post what I do, it is truth, nobody has made the revolver shoot like i have and now the rifle but long, long ago I had a 1892 25-20 Marlin that did 3/4" at 100 with cast. Open sights. 71 Winchester did under 1" at 100 with cast. Open sights. Never got the .35 marlin to shoot cast, boolits too small.

[45 2.1]

So many statements that are just wrong and it does hurt. It causes others to look the wrong way.
Cast will shoot better then jacketed. And you can get there several ways. The major problem is people posting the wrong things.


I love to post what I do, it is truth, nobody has made the revolver shoot like i have and now the rifle but long, long ago I had a 1892 25-20 Marlin that did 3/4" at 100 with cast. Open sights. 71 Winchester did under 1" at 100 with cast. Open sights. Never got the .35 marlin to shoot cast, boolits too small. Jim.... you're not the only one who has BTDT...... quite a few people have.

[greenwart]

My intent was to present a problem that I encountered and an expedient and simple solution to that problem. I am satisfied with the end product. No bullet shaving, no case distortion, no indentation on the bullet nose, consistent length, and a slight crimp. If we both produce identical products dimensionally what we use to get there is basically irrelevant. For me it was to use a seating die with minimal neck length and an oversized top punch and I didn't have to go out and buy something specific for that task. My other observation, which I will hopefully remember, is that some seating dies may not work well with certain cast bullets. The long necking section of an old Lyman seating die gave me fits. Best of all I am frugal(cheap) I will use what I have at hand if it works.

Bob

[44man]

So many statements that are just wrong and it does hurt. It causes others to look the wrong way.
Cast will shoot better then jacketed. And you can get there several ways. The major problem is people posting the wrong things.


I love to post what I do, it is truth, nobody has made the revolver shoot like i have and now the rifle but long, long ago I had a 1892 25-20 Marlin that did 3/4" at 100 with cast. Open sights. 71 Winchester did under 1" at 100 with cast. Open sights. Never got the .35 marlin to shoot cast, boolits too small. Jim.... you're not the only one who has BTDT...... quite a few people have.
True, why we are here. Experience trumps and it is here. You can't deny experience and work. To read something and repeat it is foolish. Do you know how many gun rags and writers have been proven as fools? But you need to admit that guys get 4" at 50 with a 30-30 and tell with pride how they do it. We know it is wrong. You see 25 yard patterns with a revolver that would be sad at 300 yards. Who do you believe? Or do you work? Find the problem and tell all what you did.
I found bad problems with BPCR, nobody would help but IHMSA had the best of the best helping everyone. We seen a man shooting bad we all went to his aid. Same with ML competition but some had fixed ideas you could not change as I walked off with hundreds of dollars in groceries.
Change is the problem. you dare not buck the "expert."
Can't shoot cast over 2,000 fps, Who said? Do you consider how many have "fixed" ideas because "someone said"? My shooting life was spent proving how many are wrong. "M" dies one of them.
Can't seat and crimp the same time, are you nuts? Shoot an out of box revolver under 1/2" at 100. You need to spend thousands to do that. Marlins do not shoot cast!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have to ask, has anyone considered that most all rifle seating dies have a crimp function that is controlled by the depth of the die in the press? This would explain the crushed cases and the shaved lead.

I didn't get if the boolits were Gas Checked or Plain Base but that would make a difference too as the gas checks would tend to facilitate boolit seating.

All I see wrong here is the OP not fully understanding how the dies work. This is not a big deal and can easily be corrected, and in fact it looks like he already figured it out.

I am guilty of passing on things I have read with no person knowledge of the fact. However the only time I do it is when I know the source is virtually infallible.

My favorite one is "a 250 gr .44 boolit will go clean thru an elk at 900 fps." I got this from Brian Pearce who is as good as it gets. However I have since seen several of my own Boolits go a very long ways in Jello (like clean thru 36" of it)and I at least have confidence that my boolit would go clean thru an Elk,,, if I ever got to shoot one.

I totally agree with not posting pure BS. But what is senior to posting BS,,, is recognizing BS when you see it or know different.

One other point,, When I am called out on something I either Back It Up, or Back It Down and apologize for my error.

I was recently corrected by 44man on the ability of a revolver to shoot under 1" at 25 yds. I had never seen one do it and said so. He showed the target and I swallowed, and was happy to do it.

If everyone has the main goal of "for the good of the sport," when they post something and are willing to be corrected if necessary without getting all puffed up,,, then we all will get along and the site will continue to be the best Gun site on Al's internet.

My .02

Randy

[dondiego]

I have to ask, has anyone considered that most all rifle seating dies have a crimp function that is controlled by the depth of the die in the press? This would explain the crushed cases and the shaved lead.
Randy

Mr. Buchanan - Please see my post #5.

Don

[HangFireW8]

My intent was to present a problem that I encountered and an expedient and simple solution to that problem.

Bob

Bob, good for you, and thank you for starting this thread and providing us with the chance to pontificate on related matters.

:)

[44man]

Very true that 900 fps will go through but do you have a hole or busted up internals? I do not believe in ME but fully believe in energy transmitted. 900 fps has almost none. What you feel in hand is more then the Elk feels. A hole alone is very bad.
I fully believe in two holes but still believe in boolit work and energy. Don't ever tell me a .45 is better because the hole is a few thou bigger. Really, really stupid.

[RED333]

"M" dies help NOTHING! Wrong dies will iron out the step and you lose case tension anyway if they don't.
Nobody understands bent shoulders either. Over sizing and over expanding just flies over the head.
Boy, this place gets tough! Starting to sound like other sites.


Yep, done it my self, but with 7mm RM, M die is a wonderful thing.

Sorry for giving bad advice.

[45 2.1]

Sorry for giving bad advice.

Not really bad advice. I don't like M-dies much either.... the problem is the difference in expanded diameter (and that miserable shelf that deforms anything soft if it's the least bit bigger than the expanded diameter) and what the boolits diameter and hardness is. The shelf diameter and the spud diameter play a big role in getting good results there. The RCBS type neck expander is a lot easier to get working properly...............

[451whitworth]

Not really bad advice. I don't like M-dies much either.... the problem is the difference in expanded diameter (and that miserable shelf that deforms anything soft if it's the least bit bigger than the expanded diameter) and what the boolits diameter and hardness is. The shelf diameter and the spud diameter play a big role in getting good results there. The RCBS type neck expander is a lot easier to get working properly...............

I never cared for the M die either. I much prefer the RCBS neck expander. I make custom expander plugs from tool steel the exact size of the bullet I'm loading. The brass spring back provides what i think is perfect neck tension for easy, damage free loading. I also find vintage dies have a little more clearance for loading oversize cast bullets than modern dies.

[44man]

Gas checks make boolits easier to start but still need a little flare. One thing I have brought up before about them is if your round needs tension, size boolits at the size they are or smaller if needed. let's say your boolit is .430", don't seat checks with a .432" die, use .430" or the check will be larger and open brass over boolit size.
Same in a rifle, if the boolit is .311" use a .311" die, if the boolit is .310" use a .310" die.
I rarely actually size the boolit much and use the size die to remove excess lube mostly. Made the mistake of using a die too large to find it hurt accuracy. Had a .432" GC and a .430" boolit.