Pistol primer vs rifle primer?

[texaswoodworker]

I load black powder cartridges for an antique rifle. I usually use magnum LR primers (regular primers are hard to find here, and there doesn't seem to be any pressure issues with a magnum primer). I decided to try LP primers, but most of the few (less than 4) that I shot ended up with pierced primers. Obviously I'm not going to shoot them anymore, but what would be causing this? The higher pressure magnum LR primers don't show any signs of over pressure. Are they just build stronger or something?

[bobthenailer]

large pistol primers have a different size spec and amount of primer mix than large rifle primers and should not be switched !

However small pistol and small rifle are built to the same size spec but different primer mix and can be switched if a safe load was worked up with that primer and the firing pin strike will set them off

[M1A4ME]

I've used rifle primers in pistol ammo (had an issue with my M&Ps that was blamed on primers but turned out to be something else - 2 something elses which made it tough to figure out) so when I got my new CZ I loaded up some rounds with rifle primers, too, just to see if the CZ would set them off. No issues, the CZ ate them like candy. I've also used LR primers in my 1911's with no issues. I have never put a large pistol primer in a rifle case as my 30.06 and .308 loads have lots more pressure than my 1911's and just never trusted the idea.

When I was having the issue with the M&Ps I was using mostly Tula small pistol primers and I did a comparison between them (that particular lot of primers I had at the time, I can't speak for all Tula sp primers) and some Federal sp primers. The Tula primers cup was 0.003 to 0.004" thicker than the Federal primers.

I tried loading some .300 Black Out loads with pistol primers, once. Not a heavy load as I was just starting out with 1680 powder (my first batch of reloads for it). I had several pierced primers with the small pistol primers (Remington) and none with the small rifle primers (Federal). I'd reasoned that low pressures in the .300 and small amounts of powder might be okay with small pistol primers. Someone told me the cause was Remington primers were softer than other brands (don't know if that's true, that's just someone's internet wisdom being repeated in this post).

[Lumpy grits]

Small pistol and small rifle primers are the same size.
Lg pistol and lg rifle are NOT. The lg rifle primer is 'taller'.
LG

[M-Tecs]

I load black powder cartridges for an antique rifle. I usually use magnum LR primers (regular primers are hard to find here, and there doesn't seem to be any pressure issues with a magnum primer). I decided to try LP primers, but most of the few (less than 4) that I shot ended up with pierced primers. Obviously I'm not going to shoot them anymore, but what would be causing this? The higher pressure magnum LR primers don't show any signs of over pressure. Are they just build stronger or something?

BP is low pressure. It is common to use LP for BP. If you are piercing primers you have a too large of firing pin hole, undersize firing pin, incorrect point on pin or too much firing pin protrusion. The thicker cups on the magnum primers are just masking the problem.

The US industry standards for Boxer primers are:

Small pistol and rifle diameter: .175"
Small pistol and rifle height: .110"
Large pistol and rifle diameter: .210"
Large pistol height: .110"
Large rifle height: .120"

According to SAAMI, the depths for small pistol, small rifle, and large pistol primer pockets are .118" to .122", while large rifle primer pocket depths are .128" to .132". Small pistol and small rifle primers have the same diameter (.175") while large rifle and large pistol primers are also the same (.210").

http://www.lasc.us/primerchart.htm

http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/174704-choosing-right-primer.html

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

[triggerhappy243]

also the primer cup itself is thinner material in either pistol prime. not a good idea to use pistol primers in a rifle application.

[BruceB]

This has been discussed on our website many times before.

To recap what I said in those earlier discussions:

-Many cast-bullet shooters DO substitute Large Pistol primers for Large Rifle primers, mostly for times when they want a less-energetic ignition in cast-bullet loads where the handloader desires a milder ignition pulse in loads designed to produce low pressures. It works.

-More controversial:

SOME of us have used Large RIFLE primers in cases that are intended for large PISTOL primers.

IT WORKS!

Don't tell me that it can't be done, because I've done it thousands of times.

Don't tell me that it will create slam-fires in semi-autos, because it doesn't. This is because the primers ARE flush-seated.

Don't tell me about ignition troubles, because even an S&W revolver in double-action mode fires them reliably.

Don't tell me about "high primers", because they CAN be seated flush.

Despite all the nay-saying, I will reiterate the definitive fact: I HAVE DONE IT, AND IT WORKS.

Now, do I recommend the substitutions? Pistol-for-rifle-primers, in some cases, yes, and I do it myself on occasion.

Rifle primers in pistol cases? Without some compelling reason, generally "NO". In most of my substitutions, the "compelling reason" was very simple: NO PISTOL PRIMERS AVAILABLE.

At the end of a supply line thousands of miles long, and subject to seasonal interruptions sometimes lasting for MONTHS, it was a perfect example of 'doing what I had to do'. No problems of any sort arose, and I would do it again if the need came about. The substitution was made carefully, with due attention to reducing loads and working back up. The calibers involved were .44 Magnum and .45 ACP.

Such shortages have not affected me here in the USA, at least, not so far. However, I did a short test of rifle-primed .45 ACP loads for a thread similar to this one, within the last three years or so. NVCurmudgeon witnessed the proceedings.

As expected, my 1911A1 and SIG 220 functioned perfectly, ignited the primers reliably, did NOT slam-fire, etc. etc. Chronograph figures were very close to the numbers derived from the same loads with pistol primers.

Everything that might SEEM "logical, obvious and apparent" simply ain't necessarily so..

[hardy]

What Bruce said......Mike

[madsenshooter]

I tried LP primers in my Krag. Note the difference in height given above. In my Krag, they weren't pierced, what was happening was the decreased height of the LP couldn't stretch back far enough to contact the bolt face with a firing pin sticking in the middle of it. They'd split where said pin was. It was a split rather than a piercing. Didn't help any that I had a Wolff heavy firing pin spring in the rifle. It did it less often with the standard spring, but it still did it. May or may not what's happening with yours.

[.22-10-45]

I had always read where a small pistol primer was more accurate than the small rifle in the .22 Hornet. So last fall decided to find out for myself. I was using a custom Leeth nose-pour 55gr. G.C. cast from my Steriotype/soft lead mix..about like Lyman #2 in hardness. Lyman Super moly lube, .226 dia. seated so 1st. band fully engraved when Borchardt block closed. 7.0gr. H4227. Primers were Fed. match small pistol & small rifle. 10 shot groups of each at 100yds. clearly showed the small rilfe were more accurate.