wood sliver fell out!!!

[nekshot]

I am making a stock out of a piece of really old walnut a neighbor gave me. The center of the tree is in the side of the butt stock and a piece of dead wood(black and soft) fell out. The gap is approx 2 inches long and really looks like a tooth pick would lay in it. I did not want to thin it any more at this spot, so what would the masters have to say to wannabe? I have my methods but they don't take stain like the rest of the wood and it is time for greater minds to speak! Thanks for your input.

[Sensai]

I think that I know what you're saying, but a picture would help. Also, the repair procedure will depend a lot with what the surrounding grain structure is like. If it's just the center spine that has softened and come out, this can be repaired by replacing with black tinted epoxy. It just looks like the natural center spine and no effort is made to match the surrounding grain structure. Repair can go from there to pretty exotic, depending on what you want the final product to present like. Best wishes

[DLCTEX]

I prefer to mix wood glue with fine saw dust from the wood for filling the void. The saw dust will help with blending the color. I once did this with a mesquite butt stock I made for a shotgun.

[gnoahhh]

Bummer that you had to include the pithy center of the tree in your stock. To fill that sliver I would mix up some epoxy thickened with colloidal silica, then tint it dead black with ebony sanding dust (or any proprietary blacking agent), mound it on, then sand flush when cured.

[oldred]

On this forearm there is a small crescent shaped flaw in the wood on the lower right that was just the material you described and I filled it using epoxy mixed with sawdust (sanding dust?) from sanding the wood. You can mix to any shade you want as in this case I decided the darker shade looked better with all other things considered but it could just as easily have been matched in color to the surrounding wood. Use epoxy, most wood glue is moisture sensitive and will shrink for a long time before becoming stable if it is used to fill wide gaps or holes and beside epoxy is MUCH stronger.
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/1314485884.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dwmiracle/media/1314485884.jpg.html)



Another trick I leaned some time back is that small cracks or drying checks that are too small to get glue or epoxy into can be repaired with super glue. I had a hard time accepting that one but trust me it works like a charm! Use only a quality name brand super glue such as Loctite and make sure to buy the thin liquid, this stuff will wick down into even the thinnest cracks and experimentation on scrap wood showed that it went incredibly deep in relation to the width of the crack/check and was at least as strong as wood glue. The supper glue has been a real problem solver for me.

[country gent]

If you have some scraps left over from the blank a small inletting to get enough depth and wisth then fit a piece if the scrap into it snug and glue in place leave it proud so it can be finished down to blend and match contours easily. If you can find a piece with a close grain structure then it will disapear in to the stock.

[waksupi]

Brush out any loose particles, shape a piece of wood to fit. Glue, let set up, and carry on. The Super Glue also works fine. It may take a few applications to level it out.

[oldred]

The Super Glue also works fine. It may take a few applications to level it out.


Yep a very important point I forgot to mention! It will almost always take several applications because the glue will wick down into the crack, usually all the way to the bottom. I have to admit I was highly skeptical of doing this and had tried several other methods of repairing checks and cracks, which are all too common when working with highly figured wood, but with little luck. I was researching ways of thinning epoxy in order to get it to do what the super glue does easily when someone suggested trying the Loctite brand super glue, doubting it would work very well at all I started experimenting on scrap pieces and discovered this stuff is fantastic for this purpose although Loctite does not recommend it for porous material such as wood. I suppose trying to glue two pieces of wood together might be difficult to do and achieve decent strength but this would be due to the pores in the wood wicking away most of the glue from the joint but this attribute is exactly why it works so well at gluing/filling cracks and checks. It has become a standard item on my work bench now!


Also when using super glue on wood with no finish already present it's a good idea to brush a thin layer of varnish/shellac/polyurethane or some kind of wood finish on the surface surrounding the crack but being careful not to let any of this get into the crack itself. This is because since the wood should be worked down closely to the final dimensions before the glue is applied in order to get maximum depth of penetration any glue that has soaked down into the surrounding wood might not be completely removed, since the super glue will soak down quite deep into the wood and unless the area is to be sanded down significantly the remaining glue will prevent wood stain from properly coloring the area and sometimes leave a light colored spot even if a clear finish is to be applied. Most stock finishes don't go deep into the wood at all and will prevent the super glue from soaking in so that light sanding will be all that's needed to expose bare wood ready for the final finish.

[country gent]

WHen I was turning pen pencil sets one of the perfered finishes was supeglue. I turn the rpms on the wood lathe as low as they would go. coated finished parts with super glue and let slowly spin till cured. Light sanding polish and had a finish that was good looking and hard enough to stand up to handling use.

[waksupi]

Yep a very important point I forgot to mention! It will almost always take several applications because the glue will wick down into the crack, usually all the way to the bottom. I have to admit I was highly skeptical of doing this and had tried several other methods of repairing checks and cracks, which are all too common when working with highly figured wood, but with little luck. I was researching ways of thinning epoxy in order to get it to do what the super glue does easily when someone suggested trying the Loctite brand super glue, doubting it would work very well at all I started experimenting on scrap pieces and discovered this stuff is fantastic for this purpose although Loctite does not recommend it for porous material such as wood. I suppose trying to glue two pieces of wood together might be difficult to do and achieve decent strength but this would be due to the pores in the wood wicking away most of the glue from the joint but this attribute is exactly why it works so well at gluing/filling cracks and checks. It has become a standard item on my work bench now!


Also when using super glue on wood with no finish already present it's a good idea to brush a thin layer of varnish/shellac/polyurethane or some kind of wood finish on the surface surrounding the crack but being careful not to let any of this get into the crack itself. This is because since the wood should be worked down closely to the final dimensions before the glue is applied in order to get maximum depth of penetration any glue that has soaked down into the surrounding wood might not be completely removed, since the super glue will soak down quite deep into the wood and unless the area is to be sanded down significantly the remaining glue will prevent wood stain from properly coloring the area and sometimes leave a light colored spot even if a clear finish is to be applied. Most stock finishes don't go deep into the wood at all and will prevent the super glue from soaking in so that light sanding will be all that's needed to expose bare wood ready for the final finish.

Yep, I'd forgot that, a coat of finish first. I've done this on $20,000 rifles, so it isn't uncommon in the trade.

[nekshot]

thanks fellas, this wood has real heavy mineral streaks so that is helping to blend these fixes into the wood. I knew my sawdust and glue was not gonna cut it this time so I used the epoxy(tinted black) and laid a sliver of wood into it.

[Stephen Cohen]

I not long ago fixed a similar problem, I used a can of Automotive clear coat acrylic. on a long deep scratch you just use a tooth pick to apply a little and let it harden and repeat till filled. The two damaged spots I did can not be picked.

[Pigboat]

A good place to get super glue is at hobby shops that carry wooden (RC) airplane kits. They carry it in thin, gap filling and thick.

[country gent]

WoodCrafters and wood specialty shops also carry it in 2 ounce bottles. Tool supply stores like MSC, Graingers and MSC also have good selections of it.

[Jtarm]

Pith.

If you're going for a classic rubbed-oil type finish, you may want to use old-fashioned hide glue in the sawdust/glue mix. Modern glues will not absorb the finish as well.

Ready-to-use liquid hide glue will work, so you don't have to cook it.

[nekshot]

where can you get that old glue? My dad had drum of dry glue he would add hot water to and stir it up and that stuff worked, that was all he used when he made spiral stairways. I have the stock fixed and a rubbing we go. The dog has fleas in her neck maybe I should strap the stock to the work bench leg and get her to help rub!

[xs hedspace]

I fill cracks and nicks in finished stocks with a drop of super glue, and drop a pinch of walnut sawdust on it--quickly! Shave any excess off with a scalpel.

[bangerjim]

Pith.

If you're going for a classic rubbed-oil type finish, you may want to use old-fashioned hide glue in the sawdust/glue mix. Modern glues will not absorb the finish as well.


Ready-to-use liquid hide glue will work, so you don't have to cook it.

I use Franklin hide glue (ready-to-use) a lot when restoring antiques and gluing paper labels onto old clocks and bottles. It is great.........UNTIL it gets wet! Totally re-dissolves. That is why old furniture falls apart (explodes sometimes!) when it gets wet or flooded. If you want a weather-proof fix, use epoxy or thick gap-filling cyanoacrylic glue, but you will have to tint/mix it to match the FINISHED wood color, as there is minimal color/finish absorbing into those glues. A bit tricky but can be done. I prefer to use modern glue to put a piece of matching wood in the prepared groove/hole/slot and finish it down as part of the piece. Blends into the grain pattern nicely!

I have been refinishing/restoring wood items of all species for over 40 years.

bangerjim

[Wayne Smith]

Hide glues can be purchased at Woodcraft and other woodworking outlets.

[Jtarm]

I use Franklin hide glue (ready-to-use) a lot when restoring antiques and gluing paper labels onto old clocks and bottles. It is great.........UNTIL it gets wet! Totally re-dissolves. That is why old furniture falls apart (explodes sometimes!) when it gets wet or flooded. If you want a weather-proof fix, use epoxy or thick gap-filling cyanoacrylic glue, but you will have to tint/mix it to match the FINISHED wood color, as there is minimal color/finish absorbing into those glues. A bit tricky but can be done. I prefer to use modern glue to put a piece of matching wood in the prepared groove/hole/slot and finish it down as part of the piece. Blends into the grain pattern nicely!

I have been refinishing/restoring wood items of all species for over 40 years.

bangerjim

Yeah, just thought if he sealed it, the hide glue might not be a problem, but that kinda contradicts my oil finish comment, huh:-)

[Geezer in NH]

Super glues do not last IMHO in the last 25 yeas they have been a letdown. They are great for right then but not forever. Epoxies are the best repair.

[oldred]

You have apparently never used Loctite super glue! Like most products all super glues are not the same and as long as it's kept away from high heat (higher than gunstock wood should ever be exposed to) and away from constant direct sunlight (UV) exposure it will pretty much last forever.A somewhat modified version of the same type of glue is used to hold the rearview mirror onto windshields in cars and even in the extreme adverse conditions such as that it will sometimes hold for twenty years or more, remove the sunlight and heat and it should last just about forever. I just don't know of any product that would work nearly as good as super glue for repairing season checks and cracks, nothing else will even come close to to wicking down into these thin gaps as deeply as this stuff does. If a piece is broken apart and a person is gluing two pieces together so that glue can easily be applied over the entire mating surfaces and then clamped then Epoxy would be a much better choice but nothing beats a good quality super glue for filling/repairing season checks/cracks/voids!

[bangerjim]

Has anyone used Gorilla Super Glue?

They advertise it as being "rubberized" so it is not brittle as all the standard stuff is. All I have ever used (even the so-called good stuff) breaks like glass.


banger

[oldred]

All I have ever used (even the so-called good stuff) breaks like glass.




Not in wood it won't, try it. I researched this thoroughly while trying to salvage a piece of highly figured walnut that had several bad season checks in the grain, I discovered Loctite Super Glue is the commonly used product for this repair because there simply is nothing else on the market that will wick down into the cracks and crevices like it does. Once cured it is very strong and will last just about forever, the fact it is hard is a very desirable attribute because a soft rubbery product would not finish very well.


I had several pieces of this wood that would have been worth many hundreds of dollars had I been trying to buy it so I was really concerned about the proper way of repairing it. My biggest concern was that Super Glue is an "instant set" product that is meant to be activated by applying pressure and not by simply allowing it to "dry" by evaporating solvents. It was not easy getting a straight answer from Loctite because this is not considered by them to be a proper application for this product but because of the value of my wood and the fact there simply was no way I could afford to buy walnut with that kind of figure I was determined to get an answer! After many E-Mails and a couple of phone calls I got a rep on the line who assured me that "Atmospheric curing" as he called it would result in near full strength, he would not go so far as saying this was a good use for the product but he had no problem agreeing that "in his opinion" it would work just fine. In any case it saved my wood and has been a real problem solver that I will not hesitate to use again in the future!


This is not a very good pic but this stock has several rather serious season checks repaired (none in the wrist area but it's only a 22 mag anyway) using Loctite super glue.

115720

I just don't know of anything, and searching could turn up nothing else, that works like this stuff does. No other type of glue I could find would wick into the cracks like it does and no amount of thinning would allow epoxy to work either. Experimenting on scrap pieces showed 100% penetration on thin cracks that went as much as 3/4" deep! It would even penetrate to the bottom of what amounted to little more than hairline cracks and indeed treating hairline cracks will prevent even these tiny cracks from cracking the finish.

I know nothing about "Gorilla" super glue other than the fact that a soft rubbery bond would not be at all desirable if indeed that's what it does. I do know that regular Gorilla glue is 100% totally useless for stock repair and pretty much a poor choice for a lot of other uses it's promoted for, this is another product that is IMHO successful due to advertising hype far more so than what it is capable of vs more conventional wood glues. In any case regular Gorilla glue has absolutely no place on a stockmaker's work bench and if the super glue version is the least bit soft and rubbery then it has no place either.

[bangerjim]

Thanks for your input! I do nothing with gun stocks but restore/repair lots of antiques and have many restoration and finishing tricks up my sleeve. On the rare occasion I use CA glue, I always use the thick stuff and spray it with the accelerator to get an instant cure, not relying on or even wanting an air cure. The thick stuff fills gaps very well and cures instantly with the spray. Works great for winding coils of wire and holding them in place for old instruments!

But I never use it on/in wood as it seals the pours and prevents aniline stains and dies from penetrating.

One of the best glues I have found is the type II wood glue that is for dark woods and is waterproof. Several brands out there.

banger

[oldred]

I never use it on/in wood as it seals the pours and prevents aniline stains and dies from penetrating


That's a very good point and although it was discussed a bit earlier it's important enough to cover again. Not only will it prevent stains from penetrating the wood it will also make most woods, especially darker woods like walnut, appear much lighter in the area affected by the glue even when applying a clear finish for a natural color. The point being is that if super glue is used to repair a thin crack/check then it's very important to do this before a new stock blank is sanded to finish size, it's best to work the wood to within 1/8" or or so and apply the glue at that stage so that it will be sanded off the area surrounding the crack during finial sanding to size. If it goes any closer to finished size the glue can penetrate so deeply into the wood that it can't all be sanded away without removing so much wood the blank will be undersize. On an old stock or any situation where the wood is already to the finished size I like to wipe on a thin coat of some type of simple finish such as varnish or shellac onto the area surrounding the crack to protect it from the glue, just a very thin coat to just seal the surface but not enter into or seal the crack opening. Most any type of non-penetrating finish will work except for urethane which usually tends to soak somewhat more deeply than the others, but whatever is used care must be taken to seal the wood right up to the edges of the crack but not allowed to enter the crack itself. Once this has dried the super glue can be applied, watch the glue for a minute or so to make sure the crack is completely filled and add more as needed but this should be done before the first application has dried. The wood will really suck this stuff in and it's amazing how even a hairline thin crack will wick it down to the very bottom, well maybe not always to the bottom but very deeply anyway, so usually several applications will be needed from several seconds to a minute or so apart.