Blow yourself up

[hswaters]

I guess this is the right place for this post. I started reloading a little over a year ago. A friend learned that I started with a progressive press and said it was too much for a beginner to handle. He told me I was going to blow myself up. In fact he told me that every time I saw him. So I came close, here is a link to a video that explains it somewhat, probably not as well as you old hands would have done. For one thing I don't know much about single stage presses so my description could be way off. Anyway this is honest and all that so cut me some slack.

http://youtu.be/Rpo4V0pnGQE (http://youtu.be/Rpo4V0pnGQE)

[44Vaquero]

hswaters, cases sometimes fail. This type of failure may or may not have been related to your reloading practices. At any rate it's good that you were not hurt and plan to continue reloading.


If you are on Facebook come and visit our Lee Reloading & Casting Equipment page, we have almost 6000 members now dedicated to owning and using Lee equipment. It's a good users group.



Thank you for your honesty and video!

[xacex]

45 ACP is a low pressure round. For one to do that much damage it was not a case failure, but a double charge, or an out of battery fire in which case the gun would be faulty. Count your blessings I'm sure you already counted your fingers. The loadmaster is hard to do a double charge, but it is possible if you were distracted by a primer miss-feed. If you stroke the handle 3/4 of the way and it is not enough to catch the cog in the shell plate it will drop another load in the case the next pull.
I had a problem when I first started reloading as well. I was using a turret press with a lee powder drop. Well that powder drop got stuck, and I didn't notice. Long story short it sent out 3 cases out of 100 that had no powder. I caught one when the primer went off, and the bullet stopped in the barrel. Lucky for me it was not someone like my boy who would have not noticed it, and kept shooting. After that I became much more aware of all of the mechanics of the press, and I also have one of those loadmasters. There is quite a bit going on with one pull of the lever to keep track of.

[Spawn-Inc]

it wasn't the fact that the press is progressive that caused the kaboom, it was either user error (i'm going with that after watching the video, sorry) or equipment error.

i started with a progressive press (lee pro1000) reloading 45acp and wouldn't have it any other way. the only thing you need to watch for on a progressive press is the powder charge. once you have setup all the dies correctly, there is no reason to watch the resizing die or crimp die, etc. plus you can always feed 1 case at a time through the press and treat it like a single stage until you get feel comfortable going progressive.

that being said it certainly wouldn't hurt going with a single stage first because you can usually find a use for it.

[hswaters]

I don't have facebook so even though your group is reputed to be extraordinarily helpful I cannot join you there. Thanks for the reply.

[rosewood]

Personally, I think a progressive decreases your chances of a double charge over a single stage. You basically do everything at once instead of having to keep track of what stage of loading you are on. That looks more like a case failure as a result of a unsupported chamber or out of battery. Not sure that is a reloading error myself.

[hswaters]

it wasn't the fact that the press is progressive that caused the kaboom, it was either user error (i'm going with that after watching the video, sorry) or equipment error.

i started with a progressive press (lee pro1000) reloading 45acp and wouldn't have it any other way. the only thing you need to watch for on a progressive press is the powder charge. once you have setup all the dies correctly, there is no reason to watch the resizing die or crimp die, etc. plus you can always feed 1 case at a time through the press and treat it like a single stage until you get feel comfortable going progressive.

that being said it certainly wouldn't hurt going with a single stage first because you can usually find a use for it.

I don't know how this happened and like you I would suspect user error first. As for the single stage press I guess if I were loading up 25 or 50 rounds for a hunting rifle every deer season it would be perfect. But to reload 400 or more pistol rounds it would soon take most of my time I think. I will just have to double up on caution when I am reloading and when I have a malfunction just recycle the reloads until I get the problem solved. I have this love hate relationship with my Loadmaster. When it is working good it really is good and when it decides to come unraveled someplace it is horrible. Thanks to youtube I can usually find someone who has had the problem and corrected it properly. I am not sure if I have had all of the possible Loadmaster problems but I surely have had most of them by now. I was at walmart yesterday and they had 45 acp at FORTY cents a round (had to come back and edit, math challenged). If the price continues down a bit more I will not waste time reloading any as it costs me eighteen cents now for the ones I reload. When the better half and I go out to the range I only let her shoot factory ammo anyway. Thanks for the reply.

[Patricklaw]

Interesting thread guys. I've seen two friends kaboom XDM's in the same fashion. Those were 9's and this on a 45 but I'm guessing most of our guns would have survived.

The good news is that in the case of my fiends, Springfield repaired their guns by replacing the frame for about $100.

Vigilance is the key. Be careful and load lots!

[wallenba]

High primer, and out of battery fire, or excess powder charge are my guesses.

I stopped using my Loadmaster in the Lee manner. I now take my fired cases, use a Lee pro 1000 with just a universal decapping die in it, to de-cap them, works fast with a case collater. After cleaning them, I go back to the Pro 1000, put in the FL die, and full length size them. Then prime them by hand. Dump the primed cases in the collater for the Loadmaster. First die is my Lyman M, second is a case activated Uniflow. Third, is an RCBS lock-out die ( Shuts it down if powder charge is low or high). Then seat, then crimp.

This way I don't mess up with any primers. I don't get any dirty primer residue in the Loadmaster, and don't worry about the charge level. Not as fast , but fast enough when you have separate brass ready to load, and brass getting prepped.

I also hand feed my bullets, lubed ones just kept getting hung up. Spent more time fiddling with that, than hand feeding. Entire Lee priming system is removed. The Lee powder dispenser left powder flakes everywhere, it just leaked too much. The press is good, the peripheral components are just too Rube Goldberg.

P.S. It's a lot quieter too. No rattling prime tray or singing spring and chain on the powder dispenser.

[dtknowles]

More than one way to prevent double charging but the most fool proof (nothing is completely fool proof) is select a powder charge that if double charged overflows the case. Usually can be done for auto cartridges, not so much for .38 special.

Tim

[hswaters]

More than one way to prevent double charging but the most fool proof (nothing is completely fool proof) is select a powder charge that if double charged overflows the case. Usually can be done for auto cartridges, not so much for .38 special.



Tim

When I started to reload I read every thing I could find including this forum. And getting a powder that would fill the case too full on an over charge was high on my list of requirements. I felt that was obviously the best protection I could get. Then when I tried to find powder reality reared its ugly head and just any powder became the highest priority as I had no real choice in what little I could find. I live in one of the largest cities in the country in a gun friendly state. We have lots of places set up to sell powder and such but none of them had powder most of the time. Same with primers. One place called tenring sends me emails twice a week or so listing what powders they have in stock and they still limit you to one pound of powder per family per day. I now have plenty of powder and primers so I am not motivated to drive 80 miles round trip for one pound of powder. I still have not seen them list the one I intended to use but I don't read every last email. I have always used the CCI or Remington primers Lee says to use but getting them has been a problem until just lately. Thanks for the reply.

[Spawn-Inc]

I'm right around 12cents per round for 45acp, although it's a closer to 10 cents per round with my latest lead score. Unless factory comes down to that price or close to, it's reloads all the way unless I'm really lazy.

I forgot to post that when I was still new to reloading and started loading 9mm, I switch from w231 to tightgroup and didn't change the load properly. I went to the range with some buddies and was telling them they had to use factory ammo because it's not the smartest idea to use another person's reloads. Sure enough the case ruptured and blew out my mag. My hands were blackened and throbbing with pain. I was expecting blood to come gushing out, but none did. Then my concern went to my glock 17, but it too was perfectly fine. We kept using it after looking it over.

Here was the shell.
http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo304/Spawn-Inc/IMG_20110625_130237_zps0a9f8e7d.jpg

[hswaters]

I'm right around 12cents per round for 45acp, although it's a closer to 10 cents per round with my latest lead score. Unless factory comes down to that price or close to, it's reloads all the way unless I'm really lazy.

I forgot to post that when I was still new to reloading and started loading 9mm, I switch from w231 to tightgroup and didn't change the load properly. I went to the range with some buddies and was telling them they had to use factory ammo because it's not the smartest idea to use another person's reloads. Sure enough the case ruptured and blew out my mag. My hands were blackened and throbbing with pain. I was expecting blood to come gushing out, but none did. Then my concern went to my glock 17, but it too was perfectly fine. We kept using it after looking it over.

Here was the shell.
http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo304/Spawn-Inc/IMG_20110625_130237_zps0a9f8e7d.jpg

Holy cow other than the primer that case looks just like mine. Thankfully I did not get any pain from this. I did have powder soot all over my hands. Thanks for the reply seeing another example of the case is very helpful.

[opos]

I'm an old duffer and have loaded for a long time...I started in the 50's with an old single stage and have "moved up" to a Lee Classic cast breech lock press (single stage)...I load in "stages"...I'll prep brass one day or evening..I prime off the press with a Lee (old style round tray) primer unit...When I flare and charge and seat boolits nobody get's into the room...phone is off...no radio or tv...I measure every round (use lee dippers and then a RCBS trickler to "top off"...use a RCBS 505 scale. I seat each round as it's charged to avoid any double charge....I am a low volume shooter so I can do things this way and not have some of the concerns of the progressives or automatic presses...with me loading is a relaxing hobby and is not a dollar saving or a high production kind of thing...never (yet) had one issue with a reload...I've pulled a couple of batches where I got distracted and just couldn't recall a "step" (all were fine but my mind was not ok with things the way they might have been). Love to shoot and love to reload and really enjoy the old clunk clunk loading I do....just my 2Cents.

[bbqncigars]

The best preventative to a kaboom is the hairy eyeball. Toss it if it don't look right. Life's too short as it is.

[35remington]

Those who are unsure of how autoloading pistols work often invoke the "out of battery" excuse to explain burst cases. Without going into the details of it, this is extremely unlikely. The location of the burst in the case rules this out in every picture and documented instance I've seen or heard of.

Autoloading function 101 is necessary for those who believe pistols can fire out of battery. Won't happen.

[jcwit]

The OP looks like he's retired, and in a hurry?????????????????

400 round a month???????????????????????????????

I use 2 single stages side by side. I deprime/size my cases, then tumble, then prime, it very well may be weeks till it reload them.

I frequent the range a few times a week, usually shoot 200 reloads per visit.

Reloading is as much of the hobby as shooting is.

[Vinne]

Those who are unsure of how autoloading pistols work often invoke the "out of battery" excuse to explain burst cases. Without going into the details of it, this is extremely unlikely. The location of the burst in the case rules this out in every picture and documented instance I've seen or heard of.

Autoloading function 101 is necessary for those who believe pistols can fire out of battery. Won't happen.

That's another reason I dislike 45 ACP. And it did happen to me with a S&W Sigma. I returned it to S&W but never felt the same about it when it came back so I sold it. Don't think I will ever buy a S&W again. Just my feelings.

[35remington]

The pictured shell was most definitely fired in a gun that was in battery when the firing pin fell. Take a good close look at it and try to figure out how the photo proves it. And it does.

Incidentally, the burst case pictured is a 9mm, not a 45 ACP.

[Multigunner]

A broken firing pin with the tip jammed in the forwards position can slam fire an autoloader. The primer may not be lined up if the barrel isn't fully engaged in the locking grooves but a primer doesn't have to be hit dead center to ignite the charge.
How things are meant to work isn't always relevant when theres a breakage or defective part.

The swollen primer pocket is not a sign of out of battery firing.

These photos look more like a rupture due to excessive pressure and lack of support at the feed ramp cut out, but the opening looks like it starts a bit far forwards for that alone.
The Glock copied the only real flaw in the 1911 design, the cut into the chamber at the feed ramp. I've seen one fairly recent .380 pocket pistol design that leaves even less support there.

The ramp of my FN1922 leaves none of the case head exposed except the extractor groove.
Been a long time since I looked but IIRC my S&W59 doesn't leave any of the case wall visible at the ramp.

Main cause of this sort of blow out is a bullet shoved back into the case.
The original specs for the .45 ACP called for a ring crimp in the case at the bullet base to form a shoulder to prevent the bullet from being shoved back into the case.
Some old Remington 9mm Luger rounds I have also have this ring crimp.
I've seen an advert for ammo with this sort of crimp as an extra safety measure.

It might be possible to add this crimp to your cases by dulling the cutting wheel of a tube cuter and sliping the case over a dowel rod and giving the tube cutter a turn or two.

[35remington]

Another big, BIG hint:

Look at the primer pocket. Anyone seeing this case would drop the "out of battery" idea immediately......even if they did not (as so many don't) know how autoloading pistols work.

No other cause need be considered save for maybe the bullet being pushed back in the case on feeding. The out of battery idea is clearly a nonstarter here.

[35remington]

If the firing pin wasn't broken after the event, the firing pin can also be ruled out. Burst cases are almost always due to something other than "out of battery" if not every single time....which is the likely way to bet.

[9w1911]

Unsupported chamber

[35remington]

Slipping the burst case in the chamber will likely reveal it goes all the way in. Lack of case head support is also very unlikely. It burst because pressure was too high, and for no other reason.

An unsupported chamber will not have a hugely enlarged primer pocket and the primer would still be in place. Wasn't an unsupported chamber, quite clearly.

The clues are screaming for your attention, if you'd only look and see them.

[SavageMan2506]

Reloading is no joke, you need to be extremely careful...

[Spawn-Inc]

The pictured shell was most definitely fired in a gun that was in battery when the firing pin fell. Take a good close look at it and try to figure out how the photo proves it. And it does.

Incidentally, the burst case pictured is a 9mm, not a 45 ACP.

the pictured case is of mine reloading mishap, not the OP's 45acp case. if you watch his posted video you will see his case.

the cause for mine was to much powder from a newb reloader.

[35remington]

Sorry my bad! The OP can resolve this by examining his case. Nevertheless, out of battery firing is extremely, extremely unlikely to be the cause.

Whenever a reloaded case is involved.....a mistake is the way to bet.

[MtGun44]

Sorry, but the "out of battery" claim that comes up is baloney. I have to laugh
also when someone says "brass just fails" sometimes. No doubt a new case could
theoretically be soft all the way through, but once it is fired, it is tested and will
not just fail spontaneously.

The cases shown in post #12, and the case in the video are CLEARLY overpressure
failures. Most likely cause is a double charge. The little "smile" is the only area where
the case is not supported by steel, at the feed ramp, so that is where the brass lets
loose when it gets severe overpressure. I had a long discussion with a lady here on
this board where she had done the same thing - but didn't see how it was that this
little area blew out. Finally, I took a pistol barrel from my Sig 9mm (she had a Sig
.45) and shot a short squirt of black paint at the feed ramp area with an empty case
in the chamber (barrel dismounted). The black paint was exactly where the case
failed, showing that this area, while a bit hard to see, is unsupported when the case
is fired. So, this is where it blows out. Put the failed case back in the dismounted
barrel (once you get the gun apart) and the blowout and maybe even some bent
over edges will exactly match the feed ramp area. The case was in battery, fired
normally, but was far overpressure. I have personally observed about 10 of these
over the years in person, and a few more in photos here - all exactly the same.

ONE POSSIBLE OTHER CAUSE: More likely in a 9mm than a .45 due to case size,
but still possible, --- boolit pushing into the case on feeding. Reducing the combustion
chamber size a lot increases the pressures a lot. I don't think any where near what
a double charge will do, but a large increase is possible. Proper neck tension is
critical, a crimp helps a lot, but the neck tension is key. Take a loaded round every
so often a push the boolit as hard as you can against the edge of the bench, see if
you can move it at all. If you can, you need a smaller expander insert in your die,
or larger boolits.

I have done exactly ONE of these, and this may be the huge advantage of the steel
guns over the aluminum and plastic guns. The plastic frames cannot stand this huge
overpressure where the steel frames are usually OK. I blew the mag floorplate out,
cracked the grips (man, that HURTS!) and otherwise, it was just a good lesson. I look
at EVERY SINGLE powder charge as I put the boolit on it in my Dillon 550s, and have
caught a couple more, but never had one get past me in the 30 yrs or so since I did
that.

Classic double charge, and why the OP's friend said "You'll blow yourself up." I do
recommend spending a long time (a few thousand rounds MINIMUM) with a simple
single stage press before moving to a progressive. AND please, look into each case
as you put in the boolit.

Stay safe, watch out for double charges, they are THE most likely failure with a
progressive.

Thanks to the original poster for a good video and maybe this will help someone else
avoid this. Do what you can to get that slide stop out without further damage
to the frame - you may well salvage the gun. Try to saw it off with a dremel
and abrasive cutoff wheel after taping the slide to protect it if you slip. You may
find that the tiny crack isn't important and the gun may be saved with just a new
slide stop.

Put a drop of oil on the crack, then tap around it with a screwdriver tip under a bright
light and magnification. Oil will pop out and let you find the exact end of the crack. Mark
with a awl and then drill about 1/16" or 1/8" hole right exactly at the end of the crack. The
crack tip has an extremely small size and concentrated the stresses there, so the
crack will likely grow. If you "stop drill it", the crack end is now a 1/16 diam hole and
does not concentrate stresses as much, will probably not grow. A small crack in a
non-critical area should be OK, may salvage the gun. This 'stop drilling' is used in
aircraft canopies and windows to stop cracks in brittle plexiglass, works great, worth a
try.

Best wishes.

Bill

[rosewood]

From the dead horse above, it was not an out of battery condition.

I have had at least 2 cases do this very thing and both were in a gun which qualified as an unsupported chamber. There were no other signs of overpressure other than the blowout. I am 100% positive it wasn't a double charge in my situations. But the statement of it being overpressure is correct. There was too much pressure for a unsupported case to hold in the pressure. Had it been in a supported barrel, it wouldn't have happened. New brass is stronger than reloaded and for all practical purposes, new brass is strong enough to hold in the pressure, but after the case is worked from firing and resizing, it work hardens and loses flexibility and strength and a unsupported chamber is the ideal condition for it to blowout where it did. This is why most recommend only target loads in used brass and to use new brass for hot loads. Ever seen this occur on the top side of the barrel? It always occurs on the feed ramp side. Ever seen a revolver blow out this way (I haven't but maybe you have)? Ever seen the "pregnant" cases from the older Glocks? Was all of those overpressure loads? Or was it a result of an unsupported chamber. Just my 2cents. :)

[fguffey]

I went to a firing range with a very disciplined reloader, between us was another reloader 'that we didn't even know'. He was doing everything he could do to pull the trigger, no luck, then he decided he would pull the hammer back then pull the trigger. Nothing, then he went to swing the cylinder out, it was locked also.

I cleared my table then offered to help. I ask him to stop trying to pull the trigger and the hammer, by that time both of us were trying to help him. We explained to him he had fired a case with a primer and bullet without powder. We cleared the bullet from the forcing cone by driving it back into the case. He swung the cylinder out and starting with 6 more 357 magnums rounds in his Model 66 S&W.

We stopped him again, we ask him about his reloading methods and techniques. We wanted to know if one case had no powder did the next case get twice as much. We offered him all the ammo he could shoot, we offered him scales for weighing components, the man we didn't even know got mad and left the range. He ordered and received a new Dillon 550 B press two days before going to the range. We could not convince him could weight his cases to determine the amount of powder each case received, or didn't receive. We offered to stop shooting and go home with him in an attempt to help him with his reloading.


The very disciplined reloader informed me I did not know how to load 45ACP, so I was there to test his reloads, his 45ACP ammo would not feed, he offered the ammo to everyone at the range that was shooting 45ACP, his ammo flew through every pistol there , except one. I left the range, sized his cases in a carbide die to remove the bulge caused by the bullet. I then returned to the range, his ammo looked like a snake that swallowed an egg. After removing the bulge his ammo flew through my 45 ACP build. It likes new over the counter ammo or reloads that look like new ammo.

Point? Double charge, to prevent the chance I will weight every loaded round, I have a RCBS electronic scale, it does not take long.

F. Guffey