405Gr Lee 45-70 in Buffalo Classic Loads

[rosewood]

Just started casting and have the Lee .457 405 grain mold. Loading for the short throat H&R Buffalo Classic. I am having to seat them deeper than the crimp groove so they do not drive into the rifling. Can't find a post on this subject. If there is one, please direct me to it.

I am lubing the bullets with 45/45/10 and they are dropping around 415gr with straight WW. Measuring about .459 to .460. I do not plan on resizing. What are some good loads and or recommendations on this setup?

I plan on mostly target shooting but would like to be able to hit the 500 yard gong (30") eventually. I would like at least 1.5 MOA or better if possible.

Powders I have:
RL15
Varget
2400
H322
H335
RL10x
IMR-4227
Trailboss

Thanks,

Rosewood

[softpoint]

I have used that bullet, and the 405 gr. Lee hollowbase both with 14 gr. Trailboss, with good accuracy, but you might want to step things up a little with one of the other powders for 500 yard shooting.

[aspangler]

Try 25 grains of 2400 with that boolit for about 1450fps. Works really well for me.

[rosewood]

Great. Thanks!

[bigted]

well since nobody has gone there yet and i know all are just waiting for the subject to open ... here goes.

it is not found in your powder lineup ... but ... the proper powder to use in a 45-70 [at least to try out] is the original powder loaded in them in 1873 or so ... good ol black powder.

here is the load that i like and many of my 45-70's like it too.

begin with 70 grains of GOEX 2F or some such ... compress with a compression tool to a depth that will allow your boolit + a vegi wad of .030 to .080 inch to seat with your fingers to the depth that will be loadable in your chamber ... now just remove enough of the crimp to allow chambering.

this load can be so much dang fun that the addiction process is sometimes very fast.

so there is the opener and if you acquire the addiction then blame nobody but yourself or me or anybody else that comes to mind ... this is a very fun and satisfying way to drool away an afternoon ... at any rate ... the 45-70 can be as addictive as the BP loads when you start getting hits anywhere you want to have them.

[Scharfschuetze]

I don't have the H&R rifle that you do, so my info may be a bit suspect, but here's my data for that 405 grain boolit that you want to use. The nose slips right into the throat of both US issue 45/70s as well as two H&R Trapdoors without the issue that you are having.

My load:

405 grain (1-20 mix) with SPG lube, WW cases and a moderate roll crimp, RWS primer, 5744 powder (early production from the early 90s).

With 26.5 grains, the chronograph readings are: Average 1266 fps, Es 37, Sd 11

Due to lots of powder debris at Trapdoor pressure levels, I'm not a huge fan of this powder and when my last 8 pounds of it are gone, I'll work up a load with a different powder. Perhaps the Trail Boss powder on your list might be a good replacement for it.

Accuracy out of several original Trapdoor rifles and two H&R Officer Model Trapdoors has been from 2 MOA to 3 1/2 MOA. The load just about duplicates the velocity of the original 1873 infantry load for the US Military and if the front sight of a Trapdoor is adjusted for smokeless powder, it will track right with the range settings on the 1879 rifle sight.

The load easily holds the military's E type silhouette at 500 yards and holds well all the way out past 900 yards on targets of opportunity or metal gongs.

As Big Ted notes above, Black Powder is also a hoot in the 45/70 with this boolit.

[seaboltm]

I have used 54 grains of H335 out of a Marlin at 1770 fps. But you would have to back off that since you are seating the bullet deeper. I seated the Lee 405 to the crimp groove and did a fairly heavy crimp since they are in a lever action.

[rosewood]

Yes, I do plan on trying BP one day. I will wait until I get some good shooting loads with smokeless first. I also am concerned about the preparation required after shooting BP that you have to do to save the brass. But I will do it eventually.

[rosewood]

Went to the range today. Tried out what I already had and used RL 10X. With 37.0 gr of 10x I got 1632 avg and shot a 1.8" group at 50 yards with irons. I then shot 39.0gr of 10x and it was awful, >4". I did not notice any leading on the 37.0 load, but here is a picture of what I noticed after shooting the 39.0gr load. Most of the leading is on one side of the barrel. Also, a question about leading, do you usually see it the full length of the barrel, or does it congregate at a particular place? These bullets are unsized straight out of the Lee die about about .459 to .460. I also shot my 7mm TCU and 7-30 soupcan bullet (with the same alloy) and did not see any leading with it (it is GC though). That is in another post.

115116
115119

Thanks,

Rosewood

[seaboltm]

The 39 grain load looks like it generated enough velocity that the bullet ran out of lube before it left the barrel. My 1700 fps loads do that with the Lee bullet.

[rosewood]

It did chrony at 1700. I think I will back it down to maybe 36 gr and increment by .5 to 37.5 and see what I get. Thanks

[rosewood]

I have used 54 grains of H335 out of a Marlin at 1770 fps. But you would have to back off that since you are seating the bullet deeper. I seated the Lee 405 to the crimp groove and did a fairly heavy crimp since they are in a lever action.

I am sure I will be loading for my brother's Marlin eventually, will keep this load in mind. :) Thanks, Rosewood

[katch1]

13-14 gr of trailboss will give you a good pop gun load. Give it a bit of crimp it'll probably shoot better

[rosewood]

Getting leading at the lower speeds also. How do I stop the leading? They are measuring about .458. Do I need a larger bullet? If so what can I do to make them bigger with my current mold? Thanks, Rosewood

[bigted]

take you a 50 cal pure lead ball ... no take three of them.

install copious amounts of good axle grease into your barrel.

pound the PURE lead ball with a hammer till most of the ball is driven into the muzzle.

now take a slightly smaller punch [preferably a brass drift] and finish pounding the ball into the bore.

remove the ring of lead from the muzzle that scraped off the 50 cal ball and throw it away.

pound the ball thru your barrel with a wooden dowel till it comes out the breech.

now regrease the bore and repeat with the second 50 cal ball only this time only tap it in 3 inch or so.

take your long wooden dowel and tap the slug back out the muzzle ... put this slug in a different place with a note that states it was the muzzle only slug.

take the third 50 cal ball and repeat with the first steps of the first ball ... only this time take care to go slowly down the barrel to find any tight spots ... mark your wooden dowel at any [if any] tight spots.

now take and measure your slugs to determine what the rifle desires for diameter in both bore and groove dimensions.

next take a fired case that has been shot in this chamber and doing nothing else to it ... slightly flair the mouth to remove the crimp left over from the previous load ... measure the mouth of the case to determine what the chamber is wanting for a projectile diameter.

as for the getting your mold to cast larger ... beagle the mold ... lap out the mold ... best thing is to determine what the rifle is asking for and ordering a double mold from [Accurate Molds] Tom there will build it your way at a dandy price.

another way before ordering a mold is to contact folks that make different boolit diameters for sale and order a box of what you think the rifle wants ... then you can experiment with different diameters before ordering a mold from anybody. BULLSHOP will fix you rite up with whatever you need and will talk to you and answer questions as to which diameter and profile to try first.

good luck and ill end this long winded esplanation.

[rosewood]

I keep reading about checking the chamber and bore. How do u match both? If the chamber wants .460 and the bore wants .458, which takes priority? Basically once u have those measurements, what do u do with it?

Thanks.

[bigted]

i always check both because i keep wanting to find a chamber that desires the exact same size as the bore is.

i always match my chamber diameter for this reason ...

1- i always cast fairly soft boolits that will swage into what the bore/groove of the barrel is ... i figure it this way ... if the boolit is already at the chamber diameter ... then there is less chance of gas escaping around the boolit and spitting lead down the barrel ahead of the boolit before it even gets the chance to get there.

2- another big reason for this is that i never have to size my brass ... which gives great case life ... and there is never any gas going arounf my cases in the chamber and messing up the chamber between the case and the chamber wall. besides they[the boolit] will take to the rifling very well when they are already aligned in the chamber and no tipping allowed till they get into the bore/rifling and seal tight and straight.

[rosewood]

So basically u can put a cast boolit that fits the chamber and is larger than the bore and it will be swaged by the barrel safely? when u say soft, are we talking ww soft or even less than that? Your explanation makes sense. Thanks

[bigted]

i use a 20 to 1 mix or so ... softer when i can get it but i generally dont go any softer then a 30 to 1 or so. WW's seem just a bit hard but they would work for what we are talking about.

yes the boolits do swage into the bore just fine in everything i have ... i think the most radical i have is an old remington military roller in 43 spanish ... bore is .439 and the chamber wants .454 so i load the .454 diameter boolits into the cases with no need of sizing them first. being a singleshot they do well with no crimp so ...i just load and shoot em and the old girl shoots well for my aging eyes.

my Winchester '92' in 45 Colt needs .457 inch boolits for the chamber and the bore is .453 ish. works very well and works thru the action well.

as long as your chamber is full and then the throat will be filled as well ... the rifling will take care of the rest.

imagine this ...

1- in a regular sized case with the coresponding boolit seated and crimped ... the first thing to happen after the trigger is pulled is that the case is blown open to meet the chamber wall.
2- second thing is that the gas ... if there be room around our boolit ... goes shooting past the boolit and vaporizes some of the lead off the sides and throws it down the barrel in front of the boolit.
3- now follows the boolit to iron over the lead mist that just hit the cold steel of the barrel and froze where ever it can find a stopping place.
4- after the too small and by now deformed boolit goes skipping along on the deposited lead ... you install another round that is going to do the exact same thing when the trigger is yanked.
5- now if there were any hope of accuracy ... that ship has sailed with the different lead deposits ...[being the gas carried bit plus the boolit lead scraped off with its passing over these lead deposits] sooo

these are my thoughts on the why of filling the chamber and saving both the gas carrying lead and the harsh treatment of the sized case then blown against the chamber wall and then sized again ect ect ... besides the boolit never having a chance to begin its journey in a straight fashion with the bore of yer rifle gun.

[rosewood]

That makes a lot of sense. I have read a lot and most post doesnt answer those questions very well. Thanks!!
Looks like I am going to be measuring my chamber.
Rosewood

[rosewood]

So, is it safe to say that leading is caused by gas escaping (gas cutting) around the boolit and vaporizing/melting the edges of the boolit as it does so? And I am thinking that the vaporizing/melting of that lead is strictly at the edge of the base where it gets the most concentration of heat (much like water running over sharp rocks and rounding them off). Does leading ever occur on gas checked boolits or does that entirely solve the issue?

Also, for 45-70 standard pressure loads is it safe to say that a soft boolit does not cause leading, it is the chamber/barrel fit that is responsible? I do believe that if you pushed a 5BHN boolit to 3000 fps it would likely skid and cause all types of leading issues though.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[bigted]

generally ... your gas cutting can be responsible for maybe 40 or 50 % of the leading issues . and yes the gas check boolits do lead a lot less but they are not fool proof either.

one thing that gas checks do allow is a bit faster velocity of a certain boolit weight ... within limits of course.

the soft boolits do way better when they are not pushed too hard. in a 45-70 the softer 400 ish grain boolits do well under 1600 FPS which in my experience is the outside of the envelope. pure lead is a little soft for the 45-70 but the harder mix with a bit of tin do well when not pushed too hard.

fill your chamber/throat with lead so when it is sparked up it has no place to go but down the barrel and use a good lube and i bet your problems will subside.

[Nrut]

generally ... your gas cutting can be responsible for maybe 40 or 50 % of the leading issues . and yes the gas check boolits do lead a lot less but they are not fool proof either.

one thing that gas checks do allow is a bit faster velocity of a certain boolit weight ... within limits of course.

the soft boolits do way better when they are not pushed too hard. in a 45-70 the softer 400 ish grain boolits do well under 1600 FPS which in my experience is the outside of the envelope. pure lead is a little soft for the 45-70 but the harder mix with a bit of tin do well when not pushed too hard.

fill your chamber/throat with lead so when it is sparked up it has no place to go but down the barrel and use a good lube and i bet your problems will subside.
Some great posts bigted as they get straight to the meat of cast bullet accuracy..

That last line in particular should be drilled into everyone's head until they "get it" and it appears the the OP does get it.. :D

"fill your chamber/throat with lead so when it is sparked up it has no place to go but down the barrel and use a good lube and i bet your problems will subside."

[rosewood]

As some have said before, when you start loading cast boolits, forget everything you know about J-word. It is hard to graps that a boolit can actually be larger than the bore when using cast. That is a serious safety issue with j-word bullets.

Here is my plan, going to try to get my hands on some sample boolits in different sizes. Measuring my brass, I am thinking .460 will work well. I plan to try the larger boolit and see if it shoots well and the leading stops. If so, I am going to beagle my mold and then call Lee and have them make me a sizing die that matches the selected boolit size. Don't like the idea of sending a oval down my barrel. Rosewood

[Boogieman]

Rosewood what is the dia. of your boolit nose? Some folks have reported Lee molds that cast oversize on the nose. Deep seating boolits will raise pressures. Nose should be smaller than bore dia. .450" or less on most barrels.

[rosewood]

Rosewood what is the dia. of your boolit nose? Some folks have reported Lee molds that cast oversize on the nose. Deep seating boolits will raise pressures. Nose should be smaller than bore dia. .450" or less on most barrels.

Exactly where do I measure from?

[rosewood]

Boogieman, love the sig "The 3 people a man must be able to trust completely are his gunsmith his doctor & his preacher ..,his gunsmith for his short term health ,his doctor for long term health ,and his preacher incase one of the others mess up."

[Nrut]

As some have said before, when you start loading cast boolits, forget everything you know about J-word. It is hard to graps that a boolit can actually be larger than the bore when using cast. That is a serious safety issue with j-word bullets.

Here is my plan, going to try to get my hands on some sample boolits in different sizes. Measuring my brass, I am thinking .460 will work well. I plan to try the larger boolit and see if it shoots well and the leading stops. If so, I am going to beagle my mold and then call Lee and have them make me a sizing die that matches the selected boolit size. Don't like the idea of sending a oval down my barrel. Rosewood
I would lap before beagling..
There should be a sticky on this site somewhere about lapping..
Or better yet >>>"just say no to lee molds"<<< and buy a gas check mold from NOE or Accurate Molds in the right size to begin with...

[Boogieman]

Exactly where do I measure from?
Just ahead of the drive band on the straight part of the nose.

[rosewood]

I started casting to save $$. That is why I bought lee for one. Beagling can be undone. Lapping is permanant.

[Nrut]

Lapping will give you a "round" bullet the size you want if you follow the instructions and do it slowly..
Very easy to do..
If by mistake you end up with a casted bullet larger than you need you'll have the lee PT sizer you ordered to bring it down to the size you want..
If your BC chamber is the same size as mine that would be .4605 maybe .461"..
I can shoot smaller .460 but have to resize the case for hunting loads or crimp lightly if I want the bullet to stay in the case..

If you are getting in to casting to save money, you are in for a big surprise esp. if you branch out into smaller calibers..

[rosewood]

Just ahead of the drive band on the straight part of the nose.
Getting right at .449 to .450 just ahead of the crimp groove.

[rosewood]

Nevermind. Found answer to my light primer strike on GBO.

[rosewood]

Did some measuring last night. I slightly belled the end of a fired case and was able to drop one of my boolits in easily. Very little drag, so that definitely implies that the chamber is larger than the boolit. May be pursuing the mold lapping procedure soon. Still doing a lot of reading and trying to wrap my head around the problem and various solutions.

Thanks for all of the tips,
Rosewood

[brad925]

What are your bullets coming out as cast for diameter and what lube are you using? I shoot as cast WW's that come out at .460 with my barrel having a groove diameter of .457. The lube I use is the 411 recipe I found on here as well as the 50 - 40- 10 beeswax ,Crisco, olive oil and I don't get any leading with either. Also I am shooting IMR 3031 at around 1300 fps and they will shoot one ragged hole at 100yds.

[rosewood]

Using straight W-W and 45-45-10 Alox/JPW/spirits. Not real consistent, seem to be measuring .457 sometimes and .458 at others. Using the same ingredients in my 7tcu and 7-30 waters except with gas checks and .285 Lee size die and no leading there (probably due to GC and possibly better throat fit).

[rosewood]

Decided to contact Lee before modifying my Mold. They said they didn't offer a custom service to enlarge the mold but that aluminum tape could be used or honing could be done to enlarge the mold. They do however offer custom sizing die service.

[rosewood]

Well ended up honing the mold and got it droppimg .460. went and shot today and still gettiing a lot of leading. May try beagling and see what that does for me.

[rosewood]

Haven't tried beagling yet, but decided to slow down the velocity and use a faster powder, thought maybe that will get the pressure up and get more obturation. Beside that, I do get some flashing around the base of the boolits. Has anyone experienced the flashing causing leading? Wondering if I should even up the base of the boolit before lubing or if that flashing actually helps with the boolit fit? Now, I don't mean a lot, just the edge feels a bit sharp around the base and it is slightly larger than the rest of the boolit. I just can't reason which way is better. From thermo class, I remember that a sharp edge is gonna get hot quicker than a rounded one, but from my reading on obturation, the larger base should help seal the bore.

Thanks!!