Automated Master Caster and Star run report

[wymanwinn]

just wanted to report that my Hatch/Wyman Automated Master Caster and Star are running beautifully...

on Saturday (8/23) i turned on the MC to warm up.....while it was warming i changed my Dillon 550 to load 9mm.....

when the MC was ready to go, i hit the switches and started pumping out 9mm-125gr RNL bullets at a rate of 750/hr for two hours, only needing to keep the lead lever up while i loaded 1000+ rounds of 9mm.....

after the 2 hour reloading and casting session i then proceeded to lube/size the 1500+ 9mm bullets in slightly less than 1 hour...

BOTH machines ran flawlessly thanks to Hatch's electronics set-up....:)

so, in three hours i reloaded 1000+ rounds of 9mm-125gr RNL, cast, lubed and sized 1500+ 9mm bullets.....

great way to spend a Saturday morning....

wyman

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Sounds to me like you need to upgrade your progressive to a 650, maybe even a 1050 so you can keep up with the production of the Master Caster.:)

[dragon813gt]

Now you need to set up a real assembly line. You will need some conveyors and collators for it all. Just imagine going from the master caster to the star to the Dillon w/out having to do a thing except keep the lead pot full.

[HATCH]

Thats the reason I automated the star and the master caster.
Its all about TIME.

Some people have tons of time so that can spend hours casting, sizing and reloading.

I am gonna take a 1/2 day off from work today and clean up the shop.
During that time I will run the MC doing 158 grain 38s. Its really nice to be able to do two things at once.

And Wyman, the credit goes to you. Without the air conversion I would not of been able to automate them.

On another note, I am messing around with using 3 "smart" relays to automate the Master caster.
The relays cost $70 each. You would still need the 2 air switches. So that would be about $300 still just on automation but its easier to setup and adjust. And no computer needed to program.

Limit switch sends power to Relay 1 (on delay) and to Relay 2 (one shot).
Once the timer on relay 1 runs out it will make the contact sending the signal to relay 3 (delay on break)

Relay 1 is set to be "on delay". This would be the cool down timer. This relay runs at the same time as Relay 2.
Relay 2 is the lead pour timer. Its a one shot meaning when its activated it will close for a preset amount of time. This relay can be adjusted down to the 1/10th of a second.
Relay 3 is the movement control. Its what moves the mold to the bottom and can be adjusted to allow the mold to cool. Its set to delay on break meaning that its always powered up and it uses a control signal to start it. Once it gets a signal it will keep the contact closed regardless of if the signal is still present.

All the relays are adjustable down to the 1/10th of a second.

[chloe123]

Have you ever considered building a set of instructions for either your lead pour automation, or full automation? Your conceptual descriptions are vivid and clear, and in past threads, have taken the time to reference exact parts. But unless the "how" is detailed, or the person is a savant, the transformation will stall. I look in awe at all the pictures of an increased efficiency system, and read the posts, but still can't come up with a workable game plan to automate.

[sdharley]

Hi Hatch. Where can I buy the relays? I will have time to work on mine this fall. Are you using 12 or 110 volt?

[HATCH]

I will work on getting something written up with pictures

Sdharley,
Right now I need to prove that it (three relays) will work.
If I can get it working then I will work you a great deal on the setup as the relays I am using are free samples.

[sdharley]

Thanks a lot Hatch. Appreciate all the work you and others have done. I have the Wymin air power now and that is a great improvement over manually pulling the handle. Haven't automated the lead pour yet as I was wanting to go full auto

[HATCH]

Hey Wyman, remember my beta setup video I did to test the star automation out with?? - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Vhw67Rx3A

Well, got a new video -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90loSqcmneQ

Proof of concept- Master Caster automation using 3 relays. It is setup for 120vac. Still would need a single limit switch and two 120v air switches.
Part # on the relays is Veris VTD2P-F50 - My cost is $70 each. Yes its the same relay I used for the Star Automation but used 3 instead of 2
Air switch - Automation Direct - AVP-31C1-120a - $18 each
Limit switch is from a old float switch.

So total in parts to automate a pneumatic controlled Master Caster would be about $250 not including a enclosure.
Keep in mind this is using a expensive smart relay.
I am sure someone can use cheaper relays that cost $20 each.

[sdharley]

Great work Hatch that is the simple system I was looking for

[wymanwinn]

Hey Wyman, remember my beta setup video I did to test the star automation out with?? - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Vhw67Rx3A

Well, got a new video -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90loSqcmneQ

Proof of concept- Master Caster automation using 3 relays. It is setup for 120vac. Still would need a single limit switch and two 120v air switches.
Part # on the relays is Veris VTD2P-F50 - My cost is $70 each. Yes its the same relay I used for the Star Automation but used 3 instead of 2
Air switch - Automation Direct - AVP-31C1-120a - $18 each
Limit switch is from a old float switch.

So total in parts to automate a pneumatic controlled Master Caster would be about $250 not including a enclosure.
Keep in mind this is using a expensive smart relay.
I am sure someone can use cheaper relays that cost $20 each.







VERY nice setup Hatch......very clean and easier to program each step like the star....:)))))

wyman

[HATCH]

Its a down and dirty way to it. You do not have double tap and it would take another relay if you wanted a delay before it poured lead.
Right now the relay set up dumps lead when you turn it on or when the limit switch is closed.
I haven't hooked it up on a live MC yet but I will in the next couple weeks.
And no I am not switching my setup over to relays

[wymanwinn]

Its a down and dirty way to it. You do not have double tap and it would take another relay if you wanted a delay before it poured lead.
Right now the relay set up dumps lead when you turn it on or when the limit switch is closed.
I haven't hooked it up on a live MC yet but I will in the next couple weeks.
And no I am not switching my setup over to relays

good deal....i am VERY pleased with OUR current setup.....:)

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

You guys are making some pretty cool stuff there.

[bbqncigars]

Nice setup using old school hardwire programming. I would personally use a PLC from our 'scrap' pile at work, but the vast majority of people out there have no access to such hardware freebies or have the software to program them. A touch screen programmable caster does have a certain allure.

[HATCH]

Initially I chose parts that anyone could buy so anyone could duplicate it. I am happy with it

[jmorris]

Nice setup using old school hardwire programming. I would personally use a PLC from our 'scrap' pile at work, but the vast majority of people out there have no access to such hardware freebies or have the software to program them. A touch screen programmable caster does have a certain allure.

I agree with both. Having people give you free stuff that makes things easy is cool as is building things from "junk" that you already have is cool too.

In the end, all that matters is that it works.

I have made latching relays out of normal DPST relays before, not as easy as just buying one but "cool" to do it if that is all you have.

[Tazza]

That is very cool.

I'm still having issues with mine, yet i have going on 30,000 cast in auto mode. It just has glitches that make it stop mid way through a casting session. Using relays makes it more "basic" and hopefully less likely to have issues, like Jmorris has setup.

[HATCH]

I'm still having issues with mine, yet i have going on 30,000 cast in auto mode. It just has glitches that make it stop mid way through a casting session.

What is your setup?
Is it the Wyman-Hatch setup??

The only issue I run into now is that sometimes the sprue doesn't close all the way requiring the operator to just push the handle to close it.

I am thinking or changing the air cylinder to a non-spring and power open and power close.

This would require some extra programming and a additional air valve.
Basically you wouldn't change your current air setup. You would wire the additional air valve to a open output.
The programming change would run the air valve for one second or until the limit switch closed.
I would use a flow regulator between the air supply and the new valve.

[Tazza]

Hatch - I am using an Arduino to power mine, the same as Kayak1 is using on his setup. I have my air solenoid like Wyman has, but mine had a shorter stroke but larger cylinder, so it sits a little lower to get the full stroke of the mold arm. The lead pour is done with an electric solenoid.

It has limit switches top and bottom so the computer knows where it is.

It cycles well, but some times it does a lead pour and just stops, like the program has crashed. The code is the same as Kayak1 uses without issues, i have even used another board, same issue. I just need to find more time to tinker and see if i can get to the bottom of it.

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/tazza_/master%20caster/20140610_153352.jpg

There are more pictures of the progress it has had, plus a few videos.

[HATCH]

Could be overheating causing the code to glitch.

[Tazza]

I don't believe it is heat related, the board and regulator are running pretty cool. It is spring here now, i was running it mid winter, not cold vs what you get there, above freezing but still cool.

I thought it could have been power related, but i have tried two different power supplies but the same. I have one more to test, dedicated 9v one. It works better when i don't use the display, i don't know if it is the extra power draw or the I2C protocol it uses. It is back lit, so it does use a little more power, so who knows.

[HATCH]

You need to do the math. Measure the current draw on all the devices and add them up. Factor in 20% for possible startup surge.
It happens after lead pour. That requires power so you could have a surge. Also heat doesn't always mean ambient temp.
Sorry not much help a it's not my design and I am not familiar with the components

[Tazza]

You make a good point. I figured that the arduino is running off a power supply so any fluctuations in the mains power from when the solenoid was engaged or released would not be an issue, but it could be. I don't know if 240vac coils have the same effect as a 12vdc one that when you disconnect the power, you get a voltage spike that you take care of with a diode.

As Kayak1's setup is done all with air solenoids, it is the only thing different to my setup.

You are right about the ambient temperature, i was putting my finger on the main IC and the voltage regulator, neither were very hot.

When i had it all hooked up to a different power supply, it was drawing about 100ma, that is with the air solenoid going. It uses a lot less power than i expected actually. I will take true measurements between the power supply and the arduino so it's not measuring the power drain from the solenoid/relays.

[Tazza]

ooh, i also had it running without operating the air solenoid as a bench test, so the lead pour solenoid was not running and it did 3,000+ without an issue, the only thing not connected was the 240v solenoid....

[HATCH]

I got a couple of design questions.

You are running the micro-computer off of a power supply.
What voltage is the air valve for movement and what is its supply?

You said the lead pour is electric - 240vac - how is this supplied and is there a relay?

[Tazza]

Just be be different and difficult, i have 3 voltages......
The lead pour is 240v ac
The air solenoid is 24v dc

The main power supply powers 12v dc to the arduino and also to a 12-24v dc converter.

The digital outputs from the arduino go through MOSFETs to switch the 24vdc to the air solenoid for the main arm ram and another to switch a 24v dc relay to switch the 240v ac for the lead pour.

I wanted to keep it all one voltage, but i got the solenoid for free, and the 12-24v dc converter for free, so i worked with it.

I tried running it with a dedicated 9v power supply to power the arduino yesterday, it still failed but not all in the same place. It also decided to entomb my mold in lead when i went inside, i had a nice surprise when i got outside..... 15 minutes with a torch cleaned it up again. Sadly this has happened before....

It may be time to bribe my brother to see if he can mash out some very basic code to get it operating and see if it is a wiring or power issue. If i can get it to run very basically so i know it's not a faulty component somewhere causing all these issues.

[HATCH]

OK. Couple of pointers...
You said you had more then one 12v supply correct?

Use a dedicated supply for the arduino. Use a second to convert to 24vdc.

[Tazza]

For this box, i have only one 12v supply. It is an old power supply from some CISCO gear i pulled apart. I figured it would have more than enough power to run this setup as it doesn't even draw half an amp @ 12v when running the solenoids.

I tried running it off another lab power supply just in case there were issues with the CISCO one.

I have not used a seperate one to do the 12-24v, but i can give that a go. I had a 9v supply i ran the arduino off yesterday just in case that was the issue. As the lab one does 24v, i can even try running it without the 12-24v converter in there, power it direct from the other one.

Hopefully i can find time to do this in the next few days. Get it hooked up with 3 power supplies.

[HATCH]

From what I understand from reading your post, you are running the same program as Kayak1.
This would leave only construction and components.
Generally speaking you only want to use step up converters when you have no other option.
They aren't efficient and sometimes don't provide clean steady voltage.

I use industrial grade power supplies for my projects.
They aren't cheap but I don't have to worry about power related issues.
The ones we use at work (I get special pricing on) are Idec PS5R ( http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=PS5R_Slim_Series&FamilyName=Power_Supplies)
They offer them in 24v and 12v DC output with 85vac - 265vac input.
On my initial panel I used two 7.5w supplies because thats what I had on hand. On the current panel and the couple I have built since the first one, I am using a single 30w supply.

The only voltage my PLC deals with directly is 24vdc from that power supply.
I work in the DDC field (direct digital controls). I have found that sometimes you run into issues with you use multiple power supplies on the same device as the commons (grounds) aren't always the same.

On you issue, I was thinking as I was typing.
Your setup works fine for a little while then "hiccups". If you can run multiple cycles without any changes then chances are its not the programming.
Run two power supplies.
12v for the computer
24v for the air valve and lead pour relay

Ideally you should look for a two 12v coil relays.
Have the computer switch 12v and keep the other power sources separate.
You have two limit switches. What voltage runs thru them?

[Tazza]

Even though the step up converter is not very efficient, i thought that as it was just powering a relay and an air solenoid, it shouldn't have mattered. If the power from it is "dirty" it could be an issue i guess. All the grounds are tied together or else the computer does not switch the outputs correctly as they are essentially floating with no relation to each other.

It is handy that you have access to some pretty sweet goodies. Even better that you have some on hand that come in handy for the projects you do.

The thing is, there are days that it works well for 1-200 cycles then fails. Others i turn it on and it does 7, it is totally random. It does not always fail in the same spot. The last run i did it decided to fail by holding the lead pour on, that made a slight mess to say the least....

One of the problems with that is the computer can't directly switch the relays, it has digital outputs/inputs that control MOSFETs that switch the 12 or 24v.

The limit switches run off the digital lines, so they are 5v.

The arduino has its own internal voltage regulator, i wonder how it would go if i made a power supply and used 7812 and a 7824 voltage regulators to get the desired voltages. Pretty sure i have a suitable sized transformer in my junk pile.

[HATCH]

Maybe you have a bad PC board

[Tazza]

I actually bought two, the other one does the same..... I always suspected power was the issue and tried another power supply without success but still had the step up converter in it.

[HATCH]

http://playground.arduino.cc/uploads/Learning/solenoid_driver.pdf

[Tazza]

Kayak1 and my setup to control the outputs are essentially the same as that but use MOSFETs instead of a transistor. They also have a pull down resistor from the digital pins to ground so they do not float.

[HATCH]

OK, I was just passing on what I found.

I would look at the power supplies.
Sorry I can't help you with more but I just don't know the parts.

[Tazza]

I appreciate your thoughts, it's good having another point of view. You get into one train of thought and you don't see what else there is till someone else adds what they think it could be.

In each test i have done, i have not removed the step up converter, it also is not in Kayak1's design, something i never even considered.

Hopefully i will get time over the weekend to test it again with a few power supply changes.

Thank you for your input, it's always appreciated.

[HATCH]

Did you make the power supply changes and did it fix the problem?

I fixed that panel I was building.
Ran into a small issue but it was totally my fault.
I installed a POT for lead control. I glanced at it and it said 250 ohm.
I didn't look close enough to see it was just 250 not 250K.
So when I did a bench test on the lead pour it failed. The time wasn't adjustable at all.
I looked close and found that was the problem. The timing relay uses resistance to adjust the time.
Needless to say the 250 ohm pots went into the trash

[Tazza]

Glad you got the control box working, missing the K on the end is a simple mistake, i just hope you found it quickly and not sit there tearing your hair out trying to find out what was wrong. I know i have made mistakes like this before, so very easy to do.

I did get to make the change, sadly the power suppy made no change, i think it made things worse. It would run then stop, it even held the lead pour on, trying to cocoon the bullet mold......

Understandably it has just been making me get more frustrated to the point i was thinking i'd just have to start the control box over with something different. I then looked and thought the only thing that i had not messed with were the limit switches. I then had a brain fart to turn the power off to the control box so the lead pour solenoid was not being driven and let it cycle as normal. The arduino and the relays were being powered off the new power supply, the mains power to the control box only powered the lead pour solenoid at this point. So with it off the machine did 85 cycles without issue, i then disconnected one leg of the lead pour solenoid so it was not being powered, i then put power to the control box just in case it was noise or something from the ac wiring. The counter got to 478 cycles before the displays back light went dim for some odd reason and i stopped. So i can assume that could be the arduino power supply being a little warm.

So, it is not fixed, but i think the issue has to be the solenoid creating a power spike that is messing with the arduino. When it was running with the solenoid hooked up it would run as normal then have a short cycle and the display would flicker and the run count would reset. I went around tapping the control box and boards and nothing changed so i could assume it was not loose wiring.

Now, i will need to see if i can work out a way to remove the voltage spikes that i assume the coil is generating messing with the computer. I know DC coils create power spikes that you use a diode to remove. An AC coil is not so easy though, and im not totally sure how to do it.

Hopefully it is the culprit, time to google to see if there is a way to fix it.

[Tazza]

Pretty sure i need a snubber, i wonder if it is the relay contacts and if a capacitor across it would be enough. I'll need to give it a try and see what sort of a mess i can make.

[HATCH]

Changing the power changed the problem. So that would really point to a PS problem.

[Tazza]

It does seem to look like it, but i have tried two different main power supplies then another dedicated 9v one for the arduino. Chances of all three being bad is rather remote. With me disconnecting the lead pour solenoid seemed to stop all the other glitches. As it was the only thing that is different between my setup to Kayak1's.

Time will tell, i just need to see what i have in my junk pile to fiddle with.

[HATCH]

Use a relay between the solenoid and the arduino.

[Tazza]

That is how it is wired now actually.

The digital pin from the arduino goes to a MOSFET that switches the 24v to power the relay. As i am powering a mains device, i couldn't switch it with a MOSFET, it needed a relay.

Now, the MOSFET is actually glued to the side of the relay with it's legs connecting to the coil of the relay. I wouldn't have thought it would cause issues being so close, but who knows? On a PCB they would be equally close.

[HATCH]

You know all the man hours you sunk into this and the cost of the arduino, you could of bought a plc

[Tazza]

Sadly, yes i do..... It was fun working with something new, yet frustrating with the issues i have encountered. I'll hopefully know better for next time.

[HATCH]

I think what you have will work. We just have to work the bugs out.
Easy way to fix it is to duplicate a known working system. So lose the electric lead pour and go pneumatic.

[Tazza]

That was my other option, i have some small cylinders that i think will have the power to operate the lead pour.

I don't want to be beaten by an electric solenoid, but it it comes to it, i will admit to defeat and go with an air cylinder.

[HATCH]

I am not going to admit defeat but I am trying to rule out any other issues.
It always sucks when you have two problems and you may solve one by switching power supplies but the other is still there so it makes you think the problem isn't fixed but in reality it is fixed but you had two problems.

[Tazza]

That is true, chasing your tail is the worst part. I will get it sorted out one way or the other. I just wish i understood why it is doing what it is doing with the solenoid, if it made sense, i could work out how to remedy it.

Next on the to do list is a bullet collator. An excuse to use my indexing head for the mill, saldy it is still in the box 6 months after i bought it on sale.

[Tazza]

After yet another test on the weekend, the electric solenoid has been removed. I removed the wiring from the control box and hooked the solenoid up to a switched power board, this way i could control it from there. I started the machine and dropped lead with the switch, it did a few cycles then stopped yet again. So that's the final straw, the solenoid is destined for the scrap bin. I don't know why it's doing what it is doing, but i'm not playing any more to try and get it to work with the setup.

My dad is off today to see a mate of his that has quite a selection of air cylinders, hopefully he can get hold of one for me that will do the trick. I have a few small ones, but they are far too long and i risk damaging them if they get knocked.

[Tazza]

Air ram was hooked up today with a clamp to hold it in place till i mount it correctly. It ran for 466 cycles without any issues.

Hopefully this is the last issue i will have with it *crosses fingers*

[6bg6ga]

Did you put a diode across the relay coil?

[Tazza]

I did, but it still didn't behave. It ran fine with the relay running without the solenoid connected. It was very odd but it works now. It will remain a mystery it seems.

[HATCH]

Hopefully that will solve your problems and you will be good to go.

I am looking at maybe adding a display to my master caster and making it so I can control all settings from the display.
If it works then I will put lead pour on it as well.

[Tazza]

I'm hoping so too (:

How will you go about adding a display? Will the click plc interface with it? Interesting idea though.

[No_1]

Very good thread.

My MC is hydraulic driven and controlled with timers, a bit more than y'all are considering. My cylinder is a push / pull design which I prefer over the "spring return" you are running since I feel I have more control over the movement. The hydraulic pump is a bit loud so I have considered converting it to a pneumatic / PLC set up such as y'all have but after reading this thread may settle in the middle by keeping my system as it is now but substitute air for the hydraulics. The only other thing I will add will be an inline moisture separator / oiler which will dry the air before adding oil for the cylinder.

Another note on the same subject: Has anyone found a part number for the mold "thumpers" the commercial machines use?

[HATCH]

I think they are called vibrators. I have been looking over the listings for them to try and find something to use.
As far as the push/pull setup I like it more because the sprue gets closed 100% all the time.
Only problem with your setup is that the machine doesn't know where the mold is at any given point. It assumes based on time that the mold is at the top (or bottom) but has no clue. I would try and figure out how to add a limit switch to the top position and then set it to run one cycle.

Right now the Wyman/hatch design is set for one cycle based on the limit switch.
The limit switch closes then the timers start. After it runs the cycle it stops until the limit switch is closed again. So of a boolit is stuck in the mold and causes it to be stuck at the bottom it doesn't keep running.

And as far as adding a PLC, it would be easy to add it to your design even with hydraulics and electronic lead pour control

[Tazza]

I liked the hydraulic double acting cylinder design, but i was too concerned with making mine run that way. With hydraulics, you stand far more chances of damage if something was to hang up. Most of the pumps generate around 2,000 PSI of pressure, but you can install a relief to drop that down. Hoh did you manage the heat the pump generated, did it need an oil cooler?

Hydraulics are far smoother than air, as it is not compressible. You the tight point where you cut the sprue, it is nice and smooth.

I'm with Hatch on that fact it could be run off a PLC. The simplicity of timers is great though, a lot fewer points that it can fail. The limit switches are really good as it will not move further without it knowing where the mold is.

I have some small air cylinders that i was planning on using as a mold tapper, i just don't know if that will ever be done as most of the projectiles fall out as it is now. The control box was made to have this as a possible future addition (spare digital output).

[chloe123]

A flow regulator device on a double acting cylinder won't soften the action while ensuring mold closure is complete?

[Tazza]

A double acting cylinder stands more chance of being fully closed yes. With limit switches it has to be all the way back to engage the switch too, so either it is all the way back or very close to it.

I find that the spring in my cylinder and gas strut isn't always quite strong enough to pull my mold all the way back of i have a stuck projectile in the mold. The sprue cutter drags on the slight bump and will not always reset, the system cycles again to try and clear it though. A double acting cylinder would pull it back into position more reliably but use more air to do so.

[HATCH]

The problem with the Wyman pneumatic setup is the air cylinder for movement is spring return.
You have to use a additional spring because the spring in the cylinder isn't strong enough.

You will get failures because either the additional spring fails (fatigue or hot lead dropped on it) or when the mold heats up the sprue doesn't close all the way so the machine doesn't hit the limit switch to start the next cycle.

We (Wyman and myself) have discussed switching over to a double acting cylinder.
This would require a total rewrite of the program in order to deal with the power closed.
For those that don't use the "double tap" feature then the changes to the software would be very basic.
The "double tap" section would be a total rewrite because we have to factor in the power close feature.
It isn't impossible but it will take some thought to make it operate like it is now.
You can also just replace the air valve with the same one used on the star setup and it will work without a program change.
But you will lose the manual operation of the machine.

Right now I am about 1/2 way done with a two timer setup program. It basically will allow you to run two different sets of times.
In this case its standard bullet (less the 250 grains) vs large bullet (500grains).
You have a switch that will allow you to pick whichever time you need to use.
I don't cast anything larger then 300 grain.
So for me what I will do is optimize one of the time settings for smaller boolits (125 grain) and setup the other timer setting for larger 200 grain boolits.
This will allow for higher production rates on the smaller ones and correct cool down times for the larger grain ones.
There is an additional change to the hardware side to handle the larger grain boolits.
Right now the timer is controlled by a 250K ohm pot. I would say that its good for up to about a 300 maybe 350 grain boolit. It isn't large enough.
So I will wire a resistor in the switch so when you turn on the large grain boolit feature, you also would change the resistance in the pot from 0 to 250K to 250K to 500K.
This would allow larger boolits to be dropped without affecting the fine tuning of the smaller pot.
Example would be a speedometer that goes 0 to 120 mph. the steps are 10mph. Well if you doubled the speedo but didn't change the arch (ie its only a 180 arch) then the steps are now 20mph instead of 10mph.


Now onto the Tappers.
I researched more into this.
They are electric and they are solenoids.
They are shown here in this video -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TWNmgEMnM
If you read the comments he says "The shaker's are build from an electric magnet."
His native language is German so I would assume he meant that they are solenoids.
Looks like he uses pull type and has a spring to push it back out with some force.
He made a piece that fits over the shaft of the solenoid.
Look at this video he made and it shows a better picture of the solenoid. -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb9Kfz3Q9q8

[Tazza]

I'm considering modifying my cylinder to make it double acting, the air solenoids i have are double acting, i have just plugged one port of them off. I think my gas strut may be wearing out, it has done ok, i have going on 30,000 projectiles with that strut. Over time i'm sure there will be refinements that will be made. One of which will hopefully be mold tappers.

I got a few 12v 1A solenoids off ebay for the idea of using them as tappers. They are spring loaded so as you turn them off and on, the rod on the end can strike the mold. The problem was that they didn't have enough force to do much, they would need to be a higher wattage it seems.

With the removal of the return spring from the cylinder, it should give me the extra room required to install a bigger piston to take the new seals and still have the required cylinder stroke.

I'd like to have pre-set times worked out to maximize production. But i'd suspect this would change with ambient temperature as well, so you will always have to do fine tuning.

[HATCH]

Make some end pieces for the tappers so there is a little weight.
When it comes to ambient temperature you will find that you can have a general setting for year around use provided that you don't cast outdoors in freezing weather....

[Tazza]

I was going to use brass or aluminium as to not damage the mold where they struck, essentially have a wear item that can be replaced as needed. A little extra weight isn't a bad idea, i just don't know how much energy i could get as the stroke was quite short, so not much time to gain a lot of inertia, but it may be just enough. I have found that most of them do just fall out, but it is not 100% reliable that they will both fall. Even with using an oxy torch as Jmorris does to put a coat of carbon on them to help with releasing them.

That is essentially what i was thinking too. Have a good mid point that you set it to, then adjust it from there. It never gets below freezing here, a few degrees above freezing is the lowest we get in mid winter. Summer can get up to 40C, sometimes a little more, the times you wish you never left the AC.

[HATCH]

To be honest I cast in temps that range from 60 to 100 and use the same set of times with no issues.

[sdharley]

I use a long spring attached where the original handle was. It is hooked to a mount on my stand behind the caster and runs about horizontal when the handle is up. It elimantes the lead spill problem ruining your spring and is heavier for a more positive return

[Tazza]

I have found if i try and go too fast, i get a lead smear under the sprue plate that hangs things up some times. I don't know if i'm just not letting it cool enough, or it may just be the nature of the beast, and over time it builds up no matter what.

I have found i have not needed to change my times between winter and now being spring, it has warmed up a fair bit.

[HATCH]

You need more time at the top after lead pour if you are getting lead smears.

[Tazza]

That's what i thought too. More time to cool and the lead will be more solidified before being cut off. I'll just need to find it's happy setting and work from there.

Not a bad idea sdharley. I have actually removed my handle so i could mount other things to the shaft. But it does keep it away from lead splashes.

[No_1]

Only problem with your setup is that the machine doesn't know where the mold is at any given point. It assumes based on time that the mold is at the top (or bottom) but has no clue. I would try and figure out how to add a limit switch to the top position and then set it to run one cycle.

Right now the Wyman/hatch design is set for one cycle based on the limit switch.
The limit switch closes then the timers start. After it runs the cycle it stops until the limit switch is closed again. So of a boolit is stuck in the mold and causes it to be stuck at the bottom it doesn't keep running.

And as far as adding a PLC, it would be easy to add it to your design even with hydraulics and electronic lead pour control

You are correct Charles however it would be an easy fix for me since I already have this switch which prevents the lead from pouring unless the mold is under the spout. I believe I can use this switch as a start cycle signal switch to the timers. http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1442_zpsa2602187.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1442_zpsa2602187.jpg.html)




I liked the hydraulic double acting cylinder design, but i was too concerned with making mine run that way. With hydraulics, you stand far more chances of damage if something was to hang up. Most of the pumps generate around 2,000 PSI of pressure, but you can install a relief to drop that down. Hoh did you manage the heat the pump generated, did it need an oil cooler?

Hydraulics are far smoother than air, as it is not compressible. You the tight point where you cut the sprue, it is nice and smooth.

The simplicity of timers is great though, a lot fewer points that it can fail. The limit switches are really good as it will not move further without it knowing where the mold is.

I have had no problems with hydraulics set up. The pump puts out 3000 PSI and the pressure relief keeps it at a more manageable level. I was worried about the fluid temp since the system runs against the relief constantly but a quick temperature check revealed a average of 160 degrees. It is a bit noisy....http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1450_zps7f8891c8.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1450_zps7f8891c8.jpg.html)


A double acting cylinder stands more chance of being fully closed yes. With limit switches it has to be all the way back to engage the switch too, so either it is all the way back or very close to it.

The double acting cylinder is the only way to go.http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1443_zpsf5e1497d-1.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1443_zpsf5e1497d-1.jpg.html)


Although I like the idea of going the PLC control I like the ability to adjust the multi-timer set up instantly with no special tools. The addition of the control screen with remedy the need for a PC to change the program.http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/no_one_photos/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1447_zps607a2e31-1.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/no_one_photos/media/Magma%20Master%20Caster/IMG_1447_zps607a2e31-1.jpg.html)

[Tazza]

The high pitched whine does make them less enjoyable, especially when running for long periods of time.

The switch you have in place for the lead pour could be used as a limit switch, i'd like to have one that activated when the mold is fully down too.

Did you modify the ram or set it is fully extended and retracted every stroke as to not put extra force on the MC frame? Or did you just wind the pressure right down to do this? I work on hydraulic gear in my spare time and know just how much force a hydraulic ram, even a small one has. I built an argon transfer pump that was powered by a hydraulic ram, i underestimated for force it could apply, and it tore welds off the support brackets.

Your setup is great that you can adjust on the fly, no coding to alter for any delay you want, yet the timing relays for most of us are very expensive. Hatch was talking $80 or so each, and you needed quite a few of them to do the job.

[HATCH]

Yes the limit switch I gave you for your lead pour safety would work fine. I think it only has a single set of contacts so you would need to use a relay if you wanted to keep the lead pour safety.

The problem with relays is the cost and amount of wiring needed. My cost on the relays you used is @$150 each or was several years ago when I looked them up.
So that would put the cost on relays alone at $1200. Factor in another $150 for a enclosure and small parts. That's a pile of money that most people wouldn't want to spend.
The PLC setup doesn't allow for on the fly adjustments without the use of a expensive display or hooking it up to a PC, however the PLC can do the functions of a 100 relays or more.
Prime example is that the current PLC program uses less then 1% of the available program space.

I was able to duplicate the basic automation functions using just 3 relays. It runs fine but doesn't have a double tap feature. It allows you to control the three basic functions. Top timer (lead cool), lead pour amount and bottom timer (mold cool).
It runs off a limit switch and will run only one cycle per limit switch closure.

I am not saying that any design is better then any other design. What I am saying is there are different ways to do it and with each way there are limitations.

Switching over to a double acting cylinder on the Wyman design would solve the only problem that I have come across. Which is the sprue plate not closing 100% sometimes.

[HATCH]

BTW impressed that you have a set a prints. My prints are in my head.

[Tazza]

That sure is a big chunk of cash to spend on timing relays when a computer based setup costs less than one of them. Great if you get them for free, not so much if you need to buy them....

The control box that Kayak1 came up with allows for on the fly adjustments of everything, this is what i am using. The issue seems to be that the Arduino is very susceptible to noise on the power lines, unlike the Click PLC you are using. The arduino that it uses costs about $12, display about $14, a few other components adds up to under $40.

Does the Click PLC have analogue inputs that you can use to adjust times by altering the voltage being fed into it? or does it only have digital outputs? on/off?

[HATCH]

Sorry I was typing when you were responding....

The ideal setup is to have a limit switch at the top and at the bottom.
That way the machine always knows where the mold is.

To be able to have it adjust the timers automatically based on the lead pour input. Sorta have a sliding chart the would increase the timers based on the size of the boolit.

This can all be done with a PLC but would require a additional input block to handle to potentiometer input (I think is like $150) and would require some fancy programming.
I am not sure if the PLC we currently use can do it.
I do know that the PLC we use at work can do it but its meant for DDC and its not available to everyone. Not to mention it requires special software.

I almost used that PLC (ZN551) but didn't because of the fact no one could duplicate it because they didn't have access to it.
Heck there is even a display that would allow you to change the timers in it but again no one else could duplicate it.

[Tazza]

That would be the ultimate setup. It makes sense too, the more lead being dropped means more heat to dissipate, so the sliding scale would work well.. another member had the idea of having temperature senders on the molds to make it so it knew when to dump. That would give the ultimate speed possible and would adjust for ambient temperature changes. But just how fancy do we all need it to be.

You sure have nice toys at work. Shame we couldn't justify the cost of some of it

[HATCH]

I am gonna figure out a display but its not priority right now.

[Tazza]

It's really not. Just handy to know times and how many cycles.

[HATCH]

I mean a touch screen display so I can change the timers and I can put the leas pour control in the plc

[Tazza]

Now, that would be fancy :)

[No_1]

The high pitched whine does make them less enjoyable, especially when running for long periods of time.

The switch you have in place for the lead pour could be used as a limit switch, i'd like to have one that activated when the mold is fully down too.

Did you modify the ram or set it is fully extended and retracted every stroke as to not put extra force on the MC frame? Or did you just wind the pressure right down to do this? I work on hydraulic gear in my spare time and know just how much force a hydraulic ram, even a small one has. I built an argon transfer pump that was powered by a hydraulic ram, i underestimated for force it could apply, and it tore welds off the support brackets.

Your setup is great that you can adjust on the fly, no coding to alter for any delay you want, yet the timing relays for most of us are very expensive. Hatch was talking $80 or so each, and you needed quite a few of them to do the job.

Every move is based on time, the timers control the hydraulic servo valve, the servo valve controls all fluid coming and going, I have set the timers so the ram never reaches the end of the stroke on either end. There have been (many) times when a boolit has hung the system up but I have seen no adverse affect most likely due to the presence of the relief valve being set somewhat low. As a side note, the cylinder is not a commercial unit but custom built. The original design was a bit big (2") so another cylinder of much smaller diameter (1") was fabricated then pressed into the original cylinder.

[No_1]

Yes the limit switch I gave you for your lead pour safety would work fine. I think it only has a single set of contacts so you would need to use a relay if you wanted to keep the lead pour safety.

The problem with relays is the cost and amount of wiring needed. My cost on the relays you used is @$150 each or was several years ago when I looked them up.
So that would put the cost on relays alone at $1200. Factor in another $150 for a enclosure and small parts. That's a pile of money that most people wouldn't want to spend.
The PLC setup doesn't allow for on the fly adjustments without the use of a expensive display or hooking it up to a PC, however the PLC can do the functions of a 100 relays or more.
Prime example is that the current PLC program uses less then 1% of the available program space.

I was able to duplicate the basic automation functions using just 3 relays. It runs fine but doesn't have a double tap feature. It allows you to control the three basic functions. Top timer (lead cool), lead pour amount and bottom timer (mold cool).
It runs off a limit switch and will run only one cycle per limit switch closure.

I am not saying that any design is better then any other design. What I am saying is there are different ways to do it and with each way there are limitations.

Switching over to a double acting cylinder on the Wyman design would solve the only problem that I have come across. Which is the sprue plate not closing 100% sometimes.

The system you and Wyman have designed (in my eyes) is superior to mine. I considered a PLC as well as proximity switches and then timers when designing mine. Timers was the choice and the cost of them was a non-issue since a close friend had a HUGE box and said I could take whatever I needed. The original plan was to use proximity switches to "locate" the mould in the machine but it was determined that was not needed because the timers would determine the location. What was not considered was the need to bring the hydraulic system to operating temp before setting the works into motion because not doing so causes the carriage to stop short of its destination. If I leave out the stop in the middle (under the fan) I could reduce the amount of timers by 2 but that is a stop I like when the outside temperature gets above 95 degrees, the boolit weights get above 200 grs and the total cycle times get close to 10 seconds. Adding a proximity switch at the bottom would not help me due to the design of my system.

I did not mean to hijack your thread, I only added information because I thought you had indicated you were going to "2 timers" for control of your system (vs the PLC) when in fact it appears you are going to 2 separate programs which consist of different sets of times but using the same PLC. For my type of system 8 timers is the requirement. I still am considering the PLC but I need to do some heavy research on the control panel you are talking about because I would like to retain the ability of making quick changes on the fly related to different bullet weight, temperatures and dew point.

On the same note, the addition of a tapper at the bottom would greatly help both of our designs. I think I will purchase one designed for the commercial machines then adapt it to my system.

[HATCH]

The program for the PLC is ladder logic.
There is a rung that contains the timer for lead cool. I put a normally open 'switch' block at the beginning that says if the heavy boolit switch is on then skip the rung.
I copied the rung and used the normally closed block and said if it is on then run the rung.
I did the same thing to the rung that contains the movement timer.
So its not two programs really.
I have two more inputs that I can use so I could do two more sets of timers very easy. In fact I could do a lot more because I can do multiple switches on run. If switch 1 is on and switch two on then run....
I have learned a lot since 2011 when I saw you machine running.
To be totally honest it was your machine that got wanting to automate mine. I just couldn't afford to do it the way you did.
It wasn't until Wyman came up with the pneumatic design that got my mind thinking.
If I were to build one from scratch I would still use a PLC but would go with a double acting cylinder. I would also use a touch screen display and have the lead pour operated by the PLC as well.

I spoke to a coworker today and he verified that the PLC we use would do exactly what I wanted. So I may build one of those just to try out.

[Tazza]

The ram did look pretty big for the job you had for it, even 1" would provide more than enough power.

I never thought about the fact that when it was cool that the time taken for the ram to extend and retract would be different, but it does make sense as things heat up the oil becomes thinner.

[No_1]

It does not take long to warm the equipment up. I turn the pump and let it run against the pressure relief for a few minutes then cycle the equipment for 2 to 3 minutes. When the lead has melted I turn the timers on and away we go.

[Tazza]

Can't get much easier than that.

Are there any fail safes just in case a timer failed? you don't want the ram pulling or pushing too far out of the desired range.

[No_1]

The only fail safe installed is the proximity switch which keeps the lead pour circuit open (spout closed) unless the mould is under the spout. Charles came up with this idea after witnessing a lead pour failure because the mould was not where it should have been. I have been looking over my diagram to determine if a simple rewire will be all that is needed to implement the new idea presented by Charles (the switch being the start control) or if it will be a total rewiring nightmare. I upgraded to a PID controller when I replaced the heating band some time back which consumed all remaining space in the box so I have considered upgrading to a larger box that will allow the addition of another relay, a couple terminal boards and house all of the control switches internally. Hopefully by time I have decided to do that I will have determined whether I am going to modify my current system or move to the PLC set up.

[HATCH]

Relays are normally spring return. So if a relay fails it will return to its unpowered state.
I would assume that it would continue to run just skipping the function that relay would provide.
With the lead safety relay and the relief valve no damage or mess would occur.
If I remember correctly there is a master relay that everything is timed off of. If this relay fails then I suspect the machine would stop running completely.

There is NO way for you to have a runaway lead pour situation unless something gets in the pot and jams the valve open (that has happened recently to someone else).


As far as switching over to PLC, I am not sure if I would do that since you have a working relay setup.
The only feature advantage at this time would be if you wanted to do double tap and having the limit switch start the process.
You have cast tens of thousands of boolits and the only major flaw in your design has been fixed with the addition of the lead pour safety switch.

One feature that I somewhat like is that if a boolit jams the mold open, it continues to run and in the next cycle it frees the boolit and operates properly.
My only fear I had initially was a breakage because the cylinder tries to move the carrier. But with the relief valve you have that would prevent the pressures from getting high enough to produce enough force to break something.
If you were to switch over to a limit switch cycle control then you would need to also have a way to activate the movement cylinder so you can clear a jam and reset the mold carrier back to the top. This could be down with a momentary toggle switch with center being off.

I am thinking of a feature in the PLC which would allow this to happen.
Basically after the "relay" for stroke stops it would have a delay timer of a sec or two then if the limit switch isn't closed it would run the stroke again.
Kinda like if after two seconds the limit switch isn't closed then run double tap.

Robert the major advantage the PLC has over a relay based design is that ability to "rewire" every function using nothing but software.
Prime example is the double tap feature. With the exception of adding the input for the on/off double tap switch, this feature is all software. The setup that Wyman has (which is running V2.0 of the software) could be upgraded to all the latest features by just downloading the project into the PLC and adding a single wire to the PLC. The wire is only needed if you want to switch doubletap on/off. You can enable double tap using the software so its always on.

At my work we deal with DDC modules. They are just PLCs. When we are dealing with a new piece of equiptment (like a big AC roof top unit), we look at the points we want to control and the points we want to monitor.
On the MC automation process you only have to look at the following points
Inputs
Start
Stop
Limit

Outputs
Lead cool
Lead pour
Stroke

The start/stop could be one input as its either on or its off.
So you really only have 5 points to deal with. As long as all 5 of these points are wired into the PLC you can control the machine

On my design we have more inputs and outputs only because of features

Inputs
Start
Stop
Limit switch
Double Tap
Heavy Boolit (new feature in beta)


Outputs
run light (green)
Stop light (red)
Lead pour
Movement cylinder

The lights aren't really needed for function but I include them just so you can see what is happening.

[Tazza]

I had a tinker with the double acting ram last night. My dad thought it had a longer stroke than it actually did, so i had to make a few modifications to the cylinder to get an extra 15mm of stroke. Long story short, the ram now has the required stroke for the task at hand. The end was re-threaded to fit the clevis for the mold. I am still machining a sleeve to mount this ram where the old one was. The old one had a slightly larger OD, so a sleeve needed making to fit the mount i have. A little longer at the lathe and that will be finished, then i will need to put the cylinder mount in the mill and cut a slot to accommodate the air coupling.

Good thing i had a look at this, the ram I was using before was not as good as when i first installed it. It was re-purposed for the task and the spring inside had lost quite a bit of tension. You can grab the end and there is no spring tension for at least 1" of travel. It has done pretty well as it started it's life out as an air operated valve spring compressor for cylinder heads. It has done a good 20 thousand strokes without any real issues, i may still convert it to a double acting cylinder just in case the new cylinder failed down the track.

[HATCH]

Finished working out the bugs last night on Chloe's control panel and the new software.

It now has two sets of toggle switch selectable timers.
One for standard boolits and one for heavy boolits.
Double tap works the same for both settings and also can be set independently for light or heavy boolits.
Had to basically rewrite 1/2 the program last night to get it to function like I wanted to.
Good news is that all you have to do is jumper a wire at the PLC and install a wire from a switch to activate it.
No additional wiring needed.
This is good for those with older setups

I have two more mods in the works but they will wait till after vacation.
(1) tappers
(2) touchscreen interface (adjust all settings)

With the touchscreen I would move lead pour over to the PLC.

Found the touchscreen I can use.
$200.
Requires a programming cable then a interface cable so its gonna be about $260 or so to add it.

It requires no changes in the PLC. All programming is in the display

[Tazza]

Good to hear you got the new panel done with the modifications that you had planned. Handy that the modification if members want it just requires a switch and a jumper.

[Tazza]

I got the double acting cylinder installed on Saturday, it took a lot longer than i had hoped with other issues i came up against, but nothing that couldn't be fixed. Mainly cylinder stroke and mounting another air solenoid/mufflers.

It worked very well, no hang ups. It still needs fine tuning as when the ram retracts it does come back faster than I like. The cylinder does have buffers which help, but i think a restrictor may give it just that little bit more control.

The gas strut is still fitted as when the ram came back, it would bounce a little at the end, It could be the buffer, but i'd rather it come back softer than just a big thud hitting the stopper on the MC

[HATCH]

Use a flow regulator on the exhaust port on the valve to slow the return.

[Tazza]

That is what i was going to do actually. My only concern is that there may be too much air hose between the cylinder and control valve to be as effective as it should be. Time will tell though, i'll need to get some restrictors. The one i have is 1/4 bsp not 1/8. They are cheap out of China, so i can risk a few bucks on a test.

[ProfGAB101]

Somehow I read this when Wyman first posted, then it fell off my radar.

Tazza I feel your grief as I was doing much the same fighting with an Arduino to control my Star luber. I used a 6:1 GT5 timing belt driven by a Nema 34 640 oz-in stepper.

Phantom problems - every once in a while it would want to start up going the wrong direction or some other absurd behavior. I fought it for 3 months. Never could get it to run reliable and with out adding feed back switches all over I don't think it ever would. Don't know if cell phone proximity or other signals were botching up the Arduino's internal logic. Bottom line is one day I just gave up and grabbed a "dumpster grade PC" and loaded up Linux CNC. I made a cable to go from the parallel port to the stepper driver and the whole wiring, software install and config took under 2 hours.

It worked good enough to find out that my stepper motor did not have enough torque at the existing drive ratio to size my extra hard 45 acp slugs. It functioned perfect with slugs that had been sized before, or run without slugs. I have since ditched the timing belt and am switching to a #35 chain drive much as I hate using that type of dirt magnet. I have some of the items on hand, some I have as only blueprints until I can get in some quality shop time.

I think I am done with Arduino's below the "Mega" series. Lets be honest they were intended to be used as an educational tool, not an industrial tool.

Yeah driving this with a PC takes more space but its free - as in cheaper than a direct from China Arduino even, plus I can pull up a different "CNC" program for each different bullet if needed.

edit - not #320 chain its #35 chain

[HATCH]

The arduino has a place but most people I have talked to have issues.
$80 for a PLC from automation direct is cheap and you can do a lot with one

[Tazza]

I am still at a loss as to why i had so many issues with mine. It was a good learning project, a dedicated PLC would have been better as it was designed for industrial situations. I wonder if shielding is what is needed to make the arduino more reliable. Mine runs well when no other inductive loads are run off the same power lines, filters may be needed? who knows.

It would be interesting to see if the issues were fixed in the mega version, but i'd have my doubts.

I like the cheap options, if to works and free, you can't get better than that. Especially if the pc was destined to become land fill, it got a new job.

Hatch is right, the click PLC he uses are quite powerful, reliable and a good price. Looking back, i possibly should have gone for one, but being in Australia, it would have added quite a bit to my build.

[HATCH]

I am gonna have to buy another output expansion block.
I don't have any extra room for tapper control.
Its $35

[Tazza]

Not too expensive at least. And it will do what you want it to.