JW Rosier of Victoria, Australia Rook/Kangaroo Rifle 1871 - 0.450 Calibre, case?

[sthwestvictoria]

Mostly interested in cast bullets in the 30-30 , then obtained a MH in 577/450 and started playing with that. Subsequently begain to appreciate the Martini action and picked up this piece of colonial Victoria history.
http://i61.tinypic.com/333xq9g.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/2dltatz.jpg
James Rosier was Melbourne gun smith. He worked at this location 66 Elizabeth street Melbourne between 1871-1888 producing rifles and handguns.
This is a small commercial Martini of some type,only 2.35kg (5.1pounds), barrel 598mm(23.5"), total 1020mmg(40.1"). There was a safety(missing), three express type sights marked 100, 200, 300, a thin stock with metal butt plate, horn tip and simple engraving.
Only obvious marks are Rosier's name on the left and the Martini Patent acknoledgement monogram right lower front reciever. Serial number is under the forewood 16892A. The rifle has been abused with file or gouge marks on the receiver body and destroyed screw heads. Along with the missing safety, both the pin through the breechblock and front lower reciever have been replaced with commercial bolts without a true split pin. It cocks and the trigger seems to drop the striker. The ejectors are both present and free moving.

The lightness of the receiver compared to a MKI MH is apparent:
http://i61.tinypic.com/245m4d0.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/25incq8.jpg

A slug is 0.468 groove diameter, seven grooves and there is this interesting chamber cast:
http://i61.tinypic.com/5bnw2h.jpg

The measurements are 2.075"(52.6mm) case length, 1.885" (48.0mm)from base to neck, .575" (14.8mm)above rim and a .6570" (16.08) rim. That ludicrously short neck measures only 0.175"(5.5mm), much less than one calibre long. Here the chamber cast next to a fired, un-sized 577/450 Bertram Brass:
http://i58.tinypic.com/2uzs32v.jpg

Any thoughts? I presume it would be a British rather than US chambering. Has someone re-chambered at a later date?

Some research suggests this is the same rim and base as the 450 No. 1 Westley Richards Carbine, No 1 Carbine 450 bore, No. 1 Musket 450 bore and No. 2 Musket 450 bore. It is longer than a No 1 Carbine 450 bore but shorter than the the others. The case is shorter with a smaller head and rim than the No.1 450 rifle.
One thought was whether it is a Comblian type Cartridge, certainly cases like the 11.3x53R Combilan may fit as they also possess a very short neck.

A commenter on the britishmilitaria forum (http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forum/edittopic/id/17892?page=1#.U_wItaPMa_I) I initially placed this on wondered if the area that looks like a neck is actually just a very generous chamber? That neck/freebore area measures 0.5" diameter. If that is a large throat then I am looking at a straight sided case 1.885" (48.0mm) with a base the same as a No.1 Carbine 450 bore/No 2 Musket .450 bore.

Given the base is similar to No.1&2 musket suggests that 50-90 brass can be trimmed down. The rim will be little small but should still extract.

[4060MAY]

Action looks like a Greener shotgun Action, I have a spare Safety lying around some place for the Greener
in the mid 1980's Greener Police shotguns could be had for 125.00 new or 3 for 100.00 somewhat used, I have a 30-40Krag I built on one
If I find the safety I will post a picture

[4060MAY]

If you have a sear as shown and the side of the action has a small hole next to the hole for the safety..this should be what belongs...note the detent slot on the backside of the lever for the detent plunger

Hope this helps114496

[sthwestvictoria]

I had a chance to take down and clean the rifle this afternoon. While the innards were out I repeated the chamber cast to have a better look at the rim area to ensure I was measuring the whole case (turns out I was not):
http://i58.tinypic.com/2a7u2h4.jpg
My revised case length from bottom of rim to start of rifling is 54.9mm (2.161"), from bottom of rim to neck 49.9mm (1.96")
The rim size is what I initially thought at 16.84mm(.662") and case size just above rim 14.9mm (.586)


So I think now that I am looking at the 11x50R Comblain/Belgian Comblain/11x50R Belgian Albini/11.5x50R Albini-Braenlin M1876. This suggests that what looks like a very short neck is actually chamber. This image is from the Kynoch catalogue of 1884:
http://i62.tinypic.com/x2l4zm.jpg

The internals do have the three projection tumbler of a greener action:
http://i62.tinypic.com/fv8msp.jpg

[John in PA]

Interesting piece! Thanks for posting!!
So your conclusion is that the gun was chambered with 5mm of freebore ahead of the rifling? Seems generous, but otherwise would seem too short a neck to get a decent grip on such a large bore bullet.

[sthwestvictoria]

Interesting piece! Thanks for posting!!
So your conclusion is that the gun was chambered with 5mm of freebore ahead of the rifling? Seems generous, but otherwise would seem too short a neck to get a decent grip on such a large bore bullet.



It is just that I can't seem to find anything else that seems to fit the dimensions. In this picture, CO2 is the 11x50R/M1876, CO5 is the 53.5mm long case with a short neck. Original and case dimensions here (http://www.militaryrifles.com/Comblains/ComblainCart.htm):
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Comblains/Image1.jpg

We know from news reports that JW Rosier was familiar with the Braendlin-Albini breech loading rifle from a newspaper article in 1868 (http://rosier.stelede.com/news.html):
Argus 12th March 1868
We have been shown by Mr. J.W. Rosier, gun manufacturer, of 45 Little Collins street west, three rifles which are now making no little noise in the military world. They are the converted Enfield or Snider, the celebrated French Chasepot, and the new Braendlin-Albini patent breech-loader, which has been adopted by the Belgian Government. A description of the converted Enfield or Snider has previously appeared in our columns. The Chasepot is no doubt a most efficient weapon, but the mode of loading seems more clumsy and elaborate than that of either the Snider or the Braendlin-Albini. The rate of firing appears, however, to be about the same with all three weapons, viz. twelve rounds a minute, that is, of course, for common soldiers. An expert, it is said, can fire the new Belgian arm sixteen times a minute. The principle can be applied to the conversion of existing muzzle loaders, and it has, at any rate, the merit of extreme simplicity to recommend it. We understand that Mr Rosier has submitted the Braendlin-Albini rifle to the inspection of the colonel-commandant, who has expressed a very high opinion of it. The public can see all three weapons at Mr. Rosier’s premises, in Little Collins-street.

One thing that does strike me if it is the 11x50R comblain is that the Kynoch print calls for a 380grain projectile over 77grains BP - a respectable load in a light weight and lightly built rifle like that! The Trapdoor 45/70 called for 70grain s BP with a 405grain projectile. The full sized Martini-Henry military load was 85grains BP under a 480grain projectile

[jonp]

Why would a gunsmith in Australia be toying with this caliber? I would think that at that time British would dominate. Did he pick it up from the north islands where the Dutch have a long history?

[herbert buckland]

At that time the was a lot of Belgium and French arms in Australia,they were mainly less expencive guns,but there also were some quality guns brought in,at the time there was a large amount of wales in southern waters and most ships would bring in trade goods from there home ports,so Australia has guns from all over the world turn up on a regular basis

[sthwestvictoria]

Why would a gunsmith in Australia be toying with this caliber? I would think that at that time British would dominate. Did he pick it up from the north islands where the Dutch have a long history?


'...when you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'

Sherlock Holmes


It does seem odd however the chamber cast does not seem to fit any of the common British cases - No 1 Rifle, sometimes also called the Kangaroo Rifle round:
http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx340/fallingblock/Rook%20Rifles/IMG_3864_2_zpsbcb27735.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7298FF10C5C7020/standard.jpg
Or the Westly Richards 450 family of cases which have slightly smaller head and rim sizes:
http://i62.tinypic.com/343nati.jpg

[sthwestvictoria]

At that time the was a lot of Belgium and French arms in Australia,they were mainly less expencive guns,but there also were some quality guns brought in,at the time there was a large amount of wales in southern waters and most ships would bring in trade goods from there home ports,so Australia has guns from all over the world turn up on a regular basis

Very interesting, thank you. The gold rushes at various times in various states would also have been a factor in bringing people from various areas to Australia.

[sthwestvictoria]

Took the martini out for a shoot today:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2hp26bt.jpg

Using the first express sight with is marked for 100 yards, obviously shooting a little high. Recipe was 50/90 brass trimmed, LR primer, 60grains Wano FFg, over powder card, wax cookie, over lube card. 300grain plain pb, PP 50gram bank for OAL 60mm (2.3")

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It is just that I can't seem to find anything else that seems to fit the dimensions. In this picture, CO2 is the 11x50R/M1876, CO5 is the 53.5mm long case with a short neck. Original and case dimensions here (http://www.militaryrifles.com/Comblains/ComblainCart.htm):


We know from news reports that JW Rosier was familiar with the Braendlin-Albini breech loading rifle from a newspaper article in 1868 (http://rosier.stelede.com/news.html):
Argus 12th March 1868
We have been shown by Mr. J.W. Rosier, gun manufacturer, of 45 Little Collins street west, three rifles which are now making no little noise in the military world. They are the converted Enfield or Snider, the celebrated French Chasepot, and the new Braendlin-Albini patent breech-loader, which has been adopted by the Belgian Government. A description of the converted Enfield or Snider has previously appeared in our columns. The Chasepot is no doubt a most efficient weapon, but the mode of loading seems more clumsy and elaborate than that of either the Snider or the Braendlin-Albini. The rate of firing appears, however, to be about the same with all three weapons, viz. twelve rounds a minute, that is, of course, for common soldiers. An expert, it is said, can fire the new Belgian arm sixteen times a minute. The principle can be applied to the conversion of existing muzzle loaders, and it has, at any rate, the merit of extreme simplicity to recommend it. We understand that Mr Rosier has submitted the Braendlin-Albini rifle to the inspection of the colonel-commandant, who has expressed a very high opinion of it. The public can see all three weapons at Mr. Rosier’s premises, in Little Collins-street.

One thing that does strike me if it is the 11x50R comblain is that the Kynoch print calls for a 380grain projectile over 77grains BP - a respectable load in a light weight and lightly built rifle like that! The Trapdoor 45/70 called for 70grain s BP with a 405grain projectile. The full sized Martini-Henry military load was 85grains BP under a 480grain projectile

Yes, that link does show that Rosier were interested enough to import examples of any state-or-the-art foreign rifles. Belgium, at the time, had a worldwide trade in inexpensive arms, and France sold surplus ones just about everywhere. PC Wren, author of "Beau Geste" tells of a French officer, in West Africa, picking up a Chassepot after a skirmish, and recognizing the serial number, since he had handed it in long ago, after the unfortunate events of 1870. Oman imported enough firearms to pave over the entire country, and a lot ended up on the Northwest Frontier of India. But Belgium also supplied Martini carbines with adequate through run-of-the-mill engraving, marked "Martini Mascate" and bearing the religious motto "Masha' Allah". Those, I think would have been for local use, and were chambered for .577/450. Most of the cartridges I have seen were made by the Societé Française des Munitions. I don't see any proofmarks on this rifle, but it is perfectly possible that Rosier would have imported one in a Comblain chambering, at least to begin with. I wouldn't be surprised to find them calling it by a commercial name, like the .275 Rigby was just a 7x57.

You do see some sporting rifles in just this style of action, and I believe they existed before using it for a Greener shotgun was thought of. I don't know if they had the larger threads and width Greener used to accommodate the 12ga. cartridge, for 20ga. is the largest you can get into a standard Martini. This smaller version is new to me, though. Small Martinis resembling the full-size one tend to be early, since they were mostly wiped out by the Francotte-invented cadet Martini with the detachable action frame. I doubt if they went on making them for just a limited range of medium sized cartridges like this one.

The idea of a short, heavy-caliber kangaroo rifle makes sense for anybody who hunted them on horseback. They aren't the toughest of animals, and these rifles offer handiness, fairly light recoil and the sort of report that wouldn't get you thrown off.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Germany, and no doubt other European nations, were full of small black powder cartridges, and it would be well worth while making a small Martini action just for them. The entirely non-functional duplication of rounds was worse than it is today, even. I wouldn't think they would be very good for kangaroos, etc., though. If this rifle was made in the 1870s, I am not sure there were many British cartridges much smaller than the .500/.450 Express, etc. The Belgian round might have been a logical way of putting as much power as possible into an action a Belgian maker already had.