I have a question about blackpowder substitutes, cleaning, and so on

[C. Latch]

I have nothing against real black powder. I like the stuff. However....

For the last several years my dad and I have shot BH209 in his hunting muzzleloader and I have shot smokeless powder in my Savage muzzleloader. My actual use of BLACK powder has been limited to playing with my old Hawken(s) and Renegade.

When I am at dad's house, we have a giant hot-water sink for cleaning guns. I can shoot BP then clean up a gun with no trouble.

That isn't the case here at my house. I have a wife and two small children. The former asks that I not mess the house up (much) with my gun projects; the latter two ask that they get my free time - meaning that while I can shoot anytime I want (except naptime), I don't have really good facilities for detailed BP cleaning, and I don't have the time I'd like to devote to the endeavour. I don't mind cleaning on weekends during naptime, but I do not enjoy it during the week; on a typical weeknight I have time to shoot a few shots if I want to, but not if I have to clean a gun for the next half-hour. Too much other stuff going on.

Furthermore, there's nowhere around here to buy black powder and I haven't hauled any up here from dad's house (6 hours away).

To that end, I am considering the use of substitutes. I'm not terribly worried about velocity as I don't shoot for speed. I know that any sub will be fast enough for what I do.

What I am worried about:

-what powder is least corrosive if not cleaned every day
-what powder takes the least effort to properly clean
-I would prefer not to shoot one of the moisture-attracting powders that can display erratic performance due to moisture.

I'd halfway like to hunt with a Hawken this year. I've owned the Savage for a decade now, and effectively tuned myself out of the BP sub market the day I bought it. I guess I need a refresher course.

[NSB]

What's wrong with the Blackhorn209?

[tomcat388th]

I use pyrodex RS in my cva 54 cal hawken still have to clean it right after use it does't meet your questions but it works the best for me. I just put hot soapy water in a 2 gal bucket set the barrel in and use the ramrod and a patch to pull in and out . I do this in the kitchen and for the rinse I stick a small funnel in the barrel lift it up just out of the water and use the hand nozzle from the sink to flush it out. Any small parts I do in the sink take me about 10 minutes
J

[Maven]

You may want to look at this thread about Pyrodex, especially Mad Monk's (Bill Knight) comments starting on p. 2: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31846.25

[bigted]

not to be a snot ... why not have the time to clean a BP rifle? it is not rocket science. only takes me a snap to clean and oil em for storage ... my smokeless weapons take far more time then my BP ones do ... and the BP ones do not have that smelly crud that my wife really hates in the house.

i clean most of the fouling before i even come in the house. few squirts of water/Ballistol mixed 20/1 mix and soak while i put the other stuff away then i re squirt the bore and outside and proceed to wipe away the crud in 1 or 2 fell swoops. inside the house i squirt oil down bore and over outside ... 1 or 2 patch's again with the oil and a quick wipe down and reassemble and put away ... done in round 5 min. no rust and with a fast wipe down when im ready to shoot again and ... walla ... shot at will ... er whatever you shoot at.

this with 2F GOEX black powder. i do not use the other stuff ... dont have a heartburn with those that do however ... my BP is cheaper and is the real stuff that cleans easy and is accurate in my gunz

EDIT;

i do not use hot water nor dish soap to clean so the smell is pleasant from the gate but i do clean the fouling out ... outside as it only takes a moment to do so. just 20 parts water and 1 part ballistol does the trick. fast ... cheap ... easy to apply ... negates the need for all that heating and burning your pinky's and then trying to handle a hot barrel. besides that my barrels stay prepped and seasoned the way i do it. unless you develop leading in the bore ... then it may take some stinky stuff to remove it ... but if no lead ... snafoo ... DONE!

[fouronesix]

There's nothing easier to clean than a hooked breech cap lock ML shot with real blackpowder. Real blackpowder is readily available and can be delivered to the door, if you wish.

A small plastic container holding a quart or so of hot soapy water, followed by hot rinse water, followed by some drying paper towel patches followed by a patch or two of good oil- is all that's needed for cleaning one.

There are some subs that are OK about residual corrosion and some that are much worse than real BP. There are no types of guns/powders that require zero cleaning or zero effort in maintaining. Although I've seen a ton of them for sale and at gunshows that indicate the previous owner (s) thought so.

[koger]

Here is what I use, formula given to me by a pharmacist who shot with me at NMLRA national championships, original 3 patch cleaner. Cheap and works great, have rifles with over 10,000 rounds down them, bore is still great!

2 pints alcohol
2 pint peroxide,
1 pint Murphys oil soap
Mix this together in a empty, washed out antifreeze jug, so light does not kill the peroxide. Shake well each time before using. Two ways to use this are as follows.

1. place double folded cleaning patch over your nipple and then let the hammer down to seal it off. Pour your barrel full of solution, stopping 2 inches from the muzzle. Solution will boil vigorously, , have a cup of coffee, 5-10 minutes, pour half solution out, place thumb over end of barrel and shake well, cock hammer and remove patch, pour out rest of solution. Run wet patches down barrel till they come out clean, usually 3-4 patches, the dry patches till dry, then oil bore with break free, well, no after rust. I take a damp rag and wipe down outside of barrel, drum or bolster, and lock, then dry and oil with break free. I also have an empty cap can, I drop my nipple in and pour this solution on it, will clean it while I am finishing up rest of rifle.

2. Second method. I screw in a cleaning nipple with oversize hole, stick a rubber tube over it and thru a hole in the lid of a pint peroxide container that I have drilled an filled with this solution. I take a wet patch, put on the end of jag on cleaning rod, push all the way down to the bottom, then reverse slowly stopping about inch from muzzle, pump up and down 5-6 times, last time going down, I pull the hose of the nipple and spray the yard, clean up rest of the gun as before, dry bore and all metal, lube with break free! Got a rifle down the other day, had been up a year, ran a patch down the bore and only yellow oil was on it!

[ak_milsurp]

Why not use hogdon triple 7, shockeys gold, or american Pioneer BP. Powder substitutes? I've been usi g them since they came out, and cleaning is a snap!

[ak_milsurp]

A little water cleans them up fast, followed by your favorite CLP.....

[C. Latch]

What's wrong with the Blackhorn209?

It won't ignite with percussion caps.

[C. Latch]

Why not use hogdon triple 7, shockeys gold, or american Pioneer BP. Powder substitutes? I've been usi g them since they came out, and cleaning is a snap!

Tell me about them. Like I said, I've been out of the loop for a while. Being able to shoot smokeless will do that to you.

[Themoose]

You can use BH209 in a cap lock fine using a magspark adapter from Hubbard's Outdoors. Use with Fed209A primers. No need to clean right away.

[C. Latch]

So, back to the question I actually asked....

does anyone here have any experience with BP subs, especially those that are newer to the market (<10 years), and how easy they are to clean and how corrosive they are?

If anyone could address that, I would appreciate it.

[johnson1942]

your shooting blackhorn 209 powder the very best blackpowder sub out their. matches the accracy of blackpowder and is the cleanest of them all. ive switched from real black a while back to 100 percent blackhorn 209 powder. no cleaning between shots and very little when done. i live at 4000 ft. above sea level with low humidity so i cant say what it is like where you live. that will make the diff. on how you clean your gun, with blackhorn 209 ive just run several dry patches down the bore untill they are clean then a couple of oiled patches followed by one dry. again if your in a humid area you might want to be a little more aggressive. 209 is the best powder out their and clean up for me is nil. love the stuff. about every two wks. i buy another can if i need it or not. i even shoot it in my 2- 45/70/s also. if you want to look at stats on ft. per sec ect. go to ramshot.com and go under the blog area and look up paperpatching the inline muzzle loader, lots of info their. i found the variation of 209 powder almost nil and unchanged from shot to shot with 209 powder and it wasnt weighed it was from a volume dispenser. i also found the length of barrel didnt make much diff either. its the easiest powder to work up a load on that i ever used. we even use it in a smokeless inline muzzleloader and it is more consistant than smokeless. my 24 inch barrel shot the same as my 30 inch barrel with the same amount of powder behing the same bullet. i doubt any other powder would do that. that little 24 in barrel .45 has got 6 deer and it will keep getting deer. stick with the 209 powder, its the best out their. triple seven is accurate but that crud ring at the bottom of the bore is too much to deal with. pyrodex can be accurate if your very careful on setting the bullet on the powder. it is very diry though. real black is very accurate but after years of wipeing bores i dont miss it at all. 209 all the way. hope they keep makeing it.

[ak_milsurp]

The powders I mentioned previously all measure the same as bp. They have a little more energy, but have been safe, sure, accurate. And easy cleaning . And little to no fouling. Standard caps set them off just fine.

[C. Latch]

The powders I mentioned previously all measure the same as bp. They have a little more energy, but have been safe, sure, accurate. And easy cleaning . And little to no fouling. Standard caps set them off just fine.

Did you ever chronograph the American Pioneer stuff or the SHockey's Gold?

I found a review online that claims that they were wildly inconsistent in speed.

It also sort of looks like Goex had one called 'Pinnacle' that worked really well until Hodgdon bought them out and scrapped the idea. Not sure what to make of that.

[ak_milsurp]

Most of my experience has Been in cap and ball revolvers, and a bowling ball mortar using Hogdon triple 7. I used Shockeys gold and American Pioneer prior to that. (I think these two BP subs might actually be the same stuff just branded differently). Never chrono'd any of them. That said, I was extremely pleased with the overall results.

It really made a difference in that mortar!! If I used BP In it, after three shots, I'd have to take soapy water and a Wire brush to the bore. Otherwise, the bowling ball couldn't be loaded! I can launch at least eight balls from the mortar now, and still load more without cleaning. All I do for cleanup, is swish a little water in the bore, dry it out, and lightly oil the bore. Amazing.....!

THe cap and ball revolvers? I take 'em home pop the cylinders out, and run tap water through them in the sink. I run a bit of tapwater through the bores from the forcing cone end, and presto.. CLEAN! No scrubbing! Just dry them and a light coat of CLP or gun oil...

[C. Latch]

bowling ball mortar.....


You've got to share a video of that!

[ak_milsurp]

IN Anchorage, Ak area, Hogdon Triple Seven is readily available from multiple sources. The same can't be said for Black Powder-- Only one store in Anchorage carries it! Mind you, I'm not a benchrest shooter. THat said Triple Seven has all the accuracy & reliability I need. It's easy to obtain, and works like a charm with easy clean up..... What more can you ask for? (I've never even SEEN "Blackthorn 209" in Alaska)

[ak_milsurp]

Just look up "bowling ball mortar" on You Tube, you find a bunch of them!



bowling ball mortar.....


You've got to share a video of that!

[C. Latch]

IN Anchorage, Ak area, Hogdon Triple Seven is readily available from multiple sources. The same can't be said for Black Powder-- Only one store in Anchorage carries it! Mind you, I'm not a benchrest shooter. THat said Triple Seven has all the accuracy & reliability I need. It's easy to obtain, and works like a charm with easy clean up..... What more can you ask for? (I've never even SEEN "Blackthorn 209" in Alaska)

I have some T7 pellets that I used in dad's rifle before BH209 came out, but I can't say that I really know much about it....I loaded it, shot it, sighted it in, killed a couple of deer with it, then got the Savage and since then he has hauled it to the woods 1-2 times per year, but has never fired it at an animal that I can remember.

Blackpowder is hard to get here, too. Last time I wanted a pound of it, I had to drive to Memphis, TN (lived near there at the time) and pay a high price for it. Sure, you can order it online, but shipping costs make that a no-go. Most of the stores here sell pyrodex pellets, but I've seen the corroded legacy of pyrodex enough that I want nothing to do with it.

This may be one of those cases where I end up having to just shoot whatever I can find, not necessarily what I *want*.

[NSB]

johnson1942 said it all. Get some Blackhorn209. You can shoot all day without cleaning your gun. Superb accuracy.

[C. Latch]

johnson1942 said it all. Get some Blackhorn209. You can shoot all day without cleaning your gun. Superb accuracy.


Blackhorn 209 will not ignote with the ignition system that I have in the guns in question, and while I recognize the merits of adapters that allow you to fire modern primers in caplocks - I think I was even one of the people who steered johnson1942 to a place to buy said adapters some time ago - I do not desire to change the ignition on these guns, for reasons that are outside the scope of this thread, therefore, Blackhorn 209 is a no-go for the purposes of this thread.

[n.h.schmidt]

American pioneer powder or shockys gold will do. They work with percussion caps. Non corrosive and the barrel stays clean. Downside ,accuracy seems lacking and seems to have lower power grain for grain. Lots of white smoke and no stink.
n.h.schmidt

[mooman76]

One thing you might try. TC Nature lube 1000 or Wonder lube 1000. They claimed using it would drastically cut down on corrosion. I put it to the test. I wiped the bore with it and used it for a lube and used Pyrodex. I left it uncleaned for a week and found no signs of corrosion. I might add I checked it every day at least once and also wiped the outside of the gun with it especially around the lock and nipple area where powder residue builds up. If you try it I would suggest checking it every day to make sure you are ok. I also wouldn't use this for long term storage and use a good gun oil for long term storage.

[C. Latch]

As an update, yesterday I found someone with some JSG and bought a pound of the FFg.

Nobody around here has black powder, that I have found, though my search did lead me to a store with a shelf full of smokeless powders that I might have to go back and raid at some point.

[doc1876]

I have heard from smiths, that the substitutes are more corrosive than regular black.........I personally do not know, that is just what I have heard from guys that have gotten guns in for cleaning due to non cleaning.

[triggerhappy243]

I have been using pyrodex since 1981. it's all about housekeeping. Be anal about cleaning that barrel. clean it twice if you have to. if your residential water has a high sulphur or salt content, consider boiling it first.

By the way, my ex-wife used to b*&@# about me cleaning my smoke pole too. she lives in a mobile home now.[smilie=w:

[C. Latch]

I shot a few rounds with the JSG this afternoon. No problems thus far; recoil seemed a bit light compared to regular BP, but it cleaned up super easy (hot water, and I used soap out of habit, but it didn't take 3 minutes to get it clean). I suppose it'll do to hunt with.

[OverMax]

Most sub powders seen in the market place today have been around for at least 10 yrs. To answer your question.
No substitute powders are completely corrosion-free. Not even BH209.
Again where you reside (humidity) can make a difference in how soon a cleaning is required.

As far as which sub powders are moisture-attracting powders. Frankly I wouldn't know.

[Toymaker]

Just yesterday, after a morning muzzle loader match, the range is open to all members. A young man came in with an in-line to sight in for the coming deer season. He was having a TERRIBLE time pushing his bullet down the bore. As RO I checked with him for possible safety issues and to offer assistance if needed. He was shooting [unknown brand] pellets and a bullet with which he'd had good success last year. Upon questioning it turns out he'd cleaned the bore with the recommended product, but maybe not as well as he should. Then he wiped the bore with the recommended protection product before putting it away. The bore had corroded. This wasn't the first time I've seen this situation. "It seems to me most strange" .... with these in-lines it's so easy to stick the muzzle in a container of hot soapy water and flush the bore a couple of times with a patched jag (maybe even with a water change), then pour hot water in the breech and out the muzzle; spray with WD40 to displace the water, dry patch and coat with a good protectorate (I like RIG for long term). 30 minutes, max. And easy to do outside.

[mooman76]

Many of the inline shooters get them to hunt with, not to take up the sport of shooting BP guns. My guess is they don't take the time to learn about them and thus don't know proper care for them or realize how critical a good cleaning is for them. It is real common for them to put them away and forget to clean them at all. When I first started I didn't clean with water, I just cleaned as I would a normal smokeless gun but I did know how important it was to clean good so fortunately I never had a problem.

[fouronesix]

Very true about taking up MLs to "game" the system with an earlier, more desirable season with little desire to really understand much about shooting or maintenance. Been going on since the early-mid 70s. Lots of sewer pipe bores in MLs out there.

Specific brand by brand differences I don't know about but generally: Most all subs are harder to ignite than blackpowder. Many are more hygroscopic than blackpowder. Some subs have a very short useful shelf life because of being hygroscopic (unless you enjoy opening the bottle and having to break up rock hard lumps). Blackpowder has a useful shelf life of a few hundred years. Many are corrosive and some more so than blackpowder. Most all are more expensive than blackpowder. But hey, what's not to like about them!

[stephen m weiss]

I dont have any blackpowder, and hate that my white hotz are $.50 a pop. They are also dirty as heck and I dont like the cleaning. I can cast shots for my ML 50cal for about $.06 I i am going to try 23 gr of Alliant Reloader 50 in a toilet paper wrap with a limited engagement ramrod. I am leaving 1.5" in the bore for the powder when teh powder only takes up .5". The powder is shoved back against the flash hole by the toilet paper which is wrapped like a hershey kiss and the wound part sticks toward teh bullet. Even if the bullet was loose, it could not slide back under gravity or shock by the stiffness of the ropey tp wrap.

Based on my tests with partially filled rifle shells, I should get reliable ignition and the pressure should be lower than a normal rifle case by the volume ratio .5/1.5 so down to black powder levels. The energy I am using is about the equivalent of 1.5 white hotz, so less than the 2 or 3 white hotz allowed. The bullet should get around 1250fps.

I want a last sanity check before putting my gun on the line. I guess I will do the trigger string trick for the first shot but cant see how it could explode. Does anyone see a potential problem?

smw

[C. Latch]

I can't say that what you propose is safe.

[johnson1942]

to stephen m weiss, i really dont understand all what your saying but if you are planing on useing smokelss powder in a muzzleloader, do you have good medical insurance with disabled benifits?my son has a custom in line labled as to use smokeless powder but no way. even with guns built for it it is risky. he uses blackhorn 209 and it gives him what any of the smokelss powders would and it is safer than smokless. you can sit at your kitchen table and do math after math to come up with a what seems to be a safe smokeless safe load however i know you are forgeting some variable that you were not aware of. your not only risking your self but if the range your shooting at is busy your risking them also. knowingly doing that could be classified as reckless endangerment or at the very worst, man slaughter.

[dondiego]

Stephen - Does the barrel of your rifle say "Black powder only"?

[mooman76]

I don't understand why you would take a chance. There are allot of BP subs out there. One of them should work for you. If you want to shoot smokeless, get a smokeless gun to shoot them out of. Even if it does work the first time you try it , it may stress the metal and suddenly burst some future date when you aren't expecting it.

[triggerhappy243]

Smokeless in a labeled black powder rifle?that is stupid... Sorry but it is.

[triggerhappy243]

nothing has been said as to what kind of muzzleloader steven is using. I can tell you the steel used in caplock rifles is softer compared to the steel used in center fire rifles of the same caliber. I see the making of a live hand grenade. do us all a great service........... forget all about using smokeless powder in your muzzleloader.

[dlbarr]

C. Latch, I know exactly where you live in terms of time available. I have six of those little rascals at my house and family responsibilities come first. That said, when you get a chance to shoot, I'd stick with regular BP. Have tried the smokeless varieties (other than 209) and they are as corossive,if not more, than the real thing. I like koger's recipe for a cleaning soultion and plan to give that a try.

[stephen m weiss]

Thx for the replies. Yes the gun is labelled BP only. I would label it that if I manufactured it too. It's a cheapy $150 Walmart one. Ok, no one has figured out this side of it yet. If y'all had, somebody would have heard about it.

I do appreciate you guys taking the time to reply. I can understand the sentiment in thinking what I suggest is stupid. On the other hand, I was the guy putting his PE stamp on the safety calculations for pressure vessels for nuclear power generation equipment for years. Now, I may have been the best analyst at the company, and the only PE, but I still used and respect the review process. We called it a sanity check.

How was I supposed to know that in a muzzleloading bullet casting forum no one knew basic pressure vessel calcs:
Hoop Stress=Pr/t
Cap Stress=Pr/2t
and thick walled pressure vessels have a more complex equation which produces higher stress.. hehe so the simple equations are not safe if the wall gets larger than the id. Oh, and for carbon steels, stress cycles less than half of the ultimate strength have infinite fatigue life. We use factors of safety of 4 for quick work, 2.5 for really high pressure stuff (above 30ksi) where we cant afford that much steel, but can afford the calculations and tests.

I will put off my test of the firearm using smokeless until I actually run the stress calculations on the rifle, and write something down. Or, until someone who reads the forum knows the math behind the issue. To me, pressure vessels are just rocket science. Eight years of college, state competency testing and 30 years of practice pretty much take the mystery out.
Now as far as putting others at risk: I shoot and test in the middle of my 120 acre wooded mountainside. I conducted explosion tests of pressure vessels (we called them bombs, hehe) for years, so have some idea how to set up a safe test.

Now why I want to: BP is so far unavailable to me. The substitutes cost about the same per pound, but give 1/2 to 1/3 the output of smokeless. What you are buying for full price is filler. The filler then has to be cleaned from the gun, even if it is not corrosive. The White Hotz are more like 6x as expensive.

Why I dont buy a smokeless powder muzzleloader: $150 from Walmart(for my gun), hahahahhah. Until I get to the point of practice where shooting the thing does not seem just stupidly inefficient and expensive, I am certainly not going to spend more. In many ways, nitrocellulose is easier to manufacture than BP. It's just a quirk of history that the chinese found carbon, sulphur and potasium nitrate (bp)exploded with no extra oxidizer. Now why were us Europeans too stupid to have the nitrocellulose stuff first? Well at least it only took us 300 years to improve...

Thx again.. perhaps I will start a separate developement thread on this topic. The responses indicate its a hot topic. Mebbie some readers will appreciate having the option, and trust themselves to not make a mistake with a deadly tool.

Remember, life itself is the most deadly tool. Without it, there is perfect safety.

smw

[C. Latch]

I completely understand your desire to shoot smokeless - I shoot it all the time out of my smokeless-rated Savage; until a few weeks ago it had never seen a sub, but dad borrowed it (loaded with BH209) to smoke a mule deer a few days ago. I can't wait to get it back, clean it up, put a scope back on it, and feed it some nice VV N120 ($0.30 per shot) or maybe some IMR4227 which costs all of around a nickel per shot for the powder.

Having said that, I don't know what sort of steel your gun, or anyone else's gun, is made of. It boggles my mind that nobody has ever made a smokeless-capable caplock; it seems that it would take a modified nipple to prevent gas venting towards your eyes, but other than that the rest ought to be pretty straightforward, and I'd think that you could make some loads that shot at blazing speeds but never went beyond 40k or even less, which ought to be easy to handle with the thickness of typical caplock barrels.....

With your background, you're the guy to do such testing. I look forward to seeing your results. It seems as if all you really need to do is put some strain gauges on a couple of caplock barrels and test them to bursting. There ought to be gazillions of cheap rusted-out caplocks out there you could buy to test on. Folks might even donate them to you.

[triggerhappy243]

this kind of reminds me of the taliban making and installing IED'S on the roadside. explosive ordnance manufacturing and detonation is not a good thing to be fooling with. But steven seems to know what he is getting himself into. BTW,Midsouth shooters supply has pyrodex and so does Powder Valley.

[C. Latch]

C. Latch, I know exactly where you live in terms of time available. I have six of those little rascals at my house and family responsibilities come first. That said, when you get a chance to shoot, I'd stick with regular BP. Have tried the smokeless varieties (other than 209) and they are as corossive,if not more, than the real thing. I like koger's recipe for a cleaning soultion and plan to give that a try.


I'd stick with it if I could find some in stock!

I shot a few shots this afternoon with the JSG. So far, so good; zero problems out of it.....except that 100 grains of it behind a 400+ grain minie ball is a bit excessive. I may try to ease back down to 85 grains or so and see if that will obturate my tin-added powder-coated bullets; if it does, I'll be golden.

[Safeshot]

I like "Alliant" "MZ" Black Powder substitute. After trying it in cap and ball revolver, I use it in all muzzle loading applications. Never looked back. It ignites easily and even "smokes" like black powder. Very easy "clean up". I have not heard any complaints about it except that it is difficult to find in some locations.

[dondiego]

Stephen - Call the mfgr. of the rifle (not WalMart) and see what they have to say about your proposal. I'm sure they have done many tests and should have an idea of what the stresses and the other calculations you offered up might do. They may even have the data you seek.

You can order BP online from many sources and have it sent to your door.

Don

[waksupi]

If I was going to try this experiment, it would be with a barrel that is better quality. A good barrel costs more than the whole gun that is proposed for this .

[fouronesix]

It's been done and tried and measured and tested a bunch of times by individuals and companies with access to resources far in excess to what is showing here. Nothing new under the sun so to speak. Savage went down that path for marketing purposes to supply those wishing to "game the system". After all that R&D, IRC, more than a couple of those were converted to shrapnel. I say go for it! Long Island is about as far away from where I shoot and live to be of no concern to me.

Or, why not just get a cheap single shot 45-70 and be done with it.

[johnson1942]

i suggest you go on you tube and look up all the vids of barrels explodeing and what is left of them. their are even smokeless inlines that have exploded. apparently you like to live on the edge. that can catch up to a person. hope it doesnt reach out to any one around you.

[stephen m weiss]

Hehe, tell ya the truth.. I would love to blow up a barrel, but doubt I will. Unless I get alot more interested in this than it seems to merit at this time. Typically, tough problems attract smart problem solvers. Clearly.. not a high fraction reading this thread, no insult to those who read and did not make horrid comments.

Ha, really? The energy of a 223 and you are glad you are not in my state? OMG.. Your grade school teachers must have been ashamed.

LOL ok so you must have been joking.. fair enough.

On a different level.. there are a LOT of reasons to be glad not to be in Cuomo-Bloomberg land.. .. but its not because some guys are enjoying their freedom and ability.

Ok, so this is my last post on this thread.. I am starting a new thread on this topic. If you cant seem to recall ideal gas theory, and have never developed a new process please dont post deletorious comments.

Lates,

smw

[C. Latch]

I am starting a new thread on this topic.



Well, it was fun while it lasted. I guess the liability concerns are an issue here. I can understand that.

If you go further down that road, I, for one, would love to see your results. I think that what you want to do can be done - but only within very hard boundaries that you must identify beforehand.

Good luck!

[triggerhappy243]

Everyone would like to see the results..... on video! I just watched one last night. Hope the guy did not get hurt. It destroyed the rifle.

[Texantothecore]

Bass Pro carries bp but you have to ask for it.

You might also find that there are a fairly large number of members on this board who live near you and who would like to get in on a bulk buy of bp.

I switched back to bp partly because it is easier to clean than smokeless and the plastic tubes that attach to the bolter are the best cleaning system out there. Very quick and very clean.

I got tired of buying yet more super turbo gun cleaners. Now it is just Dawn and water. Cheap, good and really fast.

[C. Latch]

Well, I'm almost halfway through the can of JSG and haven't had a misfire or hangfire yet. Pull the trigger, gun goes boom.

[shdwlkr]

You know something comes to mind, that is if the barrel were strong enough to handle smokeless powder why would a manufacturer ever not state this when they list the safe powders to be used in a black powder firearms?

I know steel can be made from many different levels/qualities of raw materials and the end product does have its limits on stress it can safely handle.
Me I am a dumb civil engineer type that only worked on around 450 bridges so what do I know about how metal reacts to stress. Yea 35 years in fact playing with steel and it failure. Next time you go over a bridge see if you can feel the bounce as you go over it, that is the beam flexing something most of can see. EXample take a paper clip and flex and count the number times it takes it to break, at that point the material has failed.

Barrels made for modern high intensity cartridges are usually made from 4140 (sometimes erroneously called "carbon" steel, to differentiate from stainless steel) or some variation of 416 stainless. But it is the prerogative of the barrel maker to use what he thinks is best, so there will be some deviation from these steels.

Some metals used for black powder
Getz - 12L14
Green Mountain - 1137

http://yarchive.net/metal/black_powder_barrels.html

just my thoughts on this subject

[dondiego]

You have to take the ignition system of a muzzle loader into account as well. You don't want that small hole in the nipple/breech plug to bleed too much pressure into your face.

[C. Latch]

just my thoughts on this subject

1137 steel has roughly half the tensile strength of quenched 4140. A typical 1" octagon barrel on a .50 muzzleloader has walls of roughly 1/4", and given that wall thickness, a modern 4140 barrel could easily handle a proof load of well over 100kPSI, and operate virtually forever at 50kPSI. Modern firearms do this every day.

Figure half of that for 1137 (you say GM uses 1137; I have two GM barrels, one is a 1" .50 cal). No, let's be safe and figure 40%.

That's a proof load of 40kPSI.

Now figure half of that as a MAP. That's 20k. I can find 45-70 and 50-70 smokeless load data (see the Lyman cast manual) that easily falls in the 15k range. I think it would be quite easy to find compressed 45-70 or 50-70 load data (compressed duplicates the conditions in a blackpowder load) that stayed below 20kPSI, or even 15kPSI, and duplicate such loads in a caplock.

It is worth noting that such pressures (15k to 20k) are lower than the pressures generated by some modern inlines with heavy powder charges and heavy bullets, and those are often shot in Italian guns that are only proofed at 10K or so. I don't shoot them personally - cheap italian guns aren't my thing - but, wise or not, other people do so.

(Every time someone mentions blackpowder pressures, contradictory figures start flying; inline shooters will quote ~25k and traditional guys will quote half of that, with neither considering that the other guy is shooting very different charge weights and projectiles. I will not delve into that argument)

The hard part, of course, is that as sure as one guy did that safely, another would branch out to other powders, and soon someone would turn blued steel into shrapnel, and therein lies the real problem, and the real reason nobody has ever went far down this road and published the results: fear of liability. In short, the benefits, from a manufacturing and marketing standpoint, do not outweigh the risks.

The only other factor to consider, and the one that really scares me, is this:


You have to take the ignition system of a muzzle loader into account as well. You don't want that small hole in the nipple/breech plug to bleed too much pressure into your face.

I noted that very thing in the thread that was removed from the forum the other day. I completely agree, and to ensure good ignition and retard gas blowback, I'd suggest using a mag-spark adapter or some other rifle-primer adapter that encloses the primer.

THAT would only leave one real problem: the ignition system is held in the gun by tiny threads and the weight of the hammer and hammer spring. Probably not an issue with 15kPSI or 20kPSI loads, but I don't know that, and until I found documentation that it could safely be done, THAT would be my real hangup with smokeless in a caplock.

I'll say no more on the subject, as I believe the deleted thread the other day sort of proves that the owners of this forum don't wish for such discussions to take place here, and, honestly, I understand that.

[mooman76]

You have to take the ignition system of a muzzle loader into account as well. You don't want that small hole in the nipple/breech plug to bleed too much pressure into your face.

The nipples have been known to blow out after they get worn or from excess pressure. You don't want that coming at your eye.

[johnson1942]

dont count on magspark nipples to not blow out on a side lock with smokeless powder. they had a batch with weak threads on them a few years ago that couldnt hold black powder pressures. its a nipple for shot gun primers but it is just a nipple. i can tell with mine if im going too heavy on the powder as the primer really gets mashed in the nipple. then i back off on the charge. this post went dangerous and every one should stick to what is safe in sidelocks.