45-70 resizing dies

[iron brigade]

Gents,
I recently acquired a 1884 trapdoor ramrod bayonet model.
I was told to buy cowboy action dies for it. I prefer Lee dies. what's best???

[seaboltm]

I have an old set of Lee 45-70 dies that I love. They work great, but they aren't carbide, so the cases have to be lubed.

[bigted]

the cowboy dies from RCBS are a thing of beauty and they are pure function and no compromise in quality ... cant comment on the Lee.

[dh2]

J am using Lee dies for my trap door springfield and my Marlin with out any problem, the only thing I can not do is load Hornady brass it is shorter than standard,

[country gent]

Im using a mix of dies for 45-70. I have a redding set and some lees dies but also use a meacham bushing die to size. I have made a set of expanders to fit the redding die to match bullet dias also. The lees will work the RCBS will also work I perfer the expander belling die of the rcbs set over lees. As to loading the shorter brass you need to face of the bottom of the seating die around .090 to get the crimp ring low enough for he shorter brass. I know several using the sizing die with stem removed as a taper crimp die only entering enough to remove flare and snug up on bullet

[Nobade]

The Lee sizers aren't too bad, but the expander will probably need a custom plug made (since they're made for j-word bullets) and the seaters are terrible for use with lead. The RCBS Cowboy dies are wonderful in 30-30, never used any in 45-70. My own set is an old CH4D one that has had a custom expander plug made for it, plus a BACO powder compression die and a Lymn taper crimp die, modified as well.

If you haven't read Pat Wolf's book on loading ammo for the Trapdoor, you might want to get yourself a copy. He will get you up to speed quickly without as much experimenting. I wouldn't go drilling out the flash holes in your cases, but the rest is quite good.

-Nobade

[TXGunNut]

Just got a set of RCBS Cowboy dies in 45-70, replaces a set of Hornady dies that simply didn't work. It's my 4th set of Cowboy dies because they work especially well for cast boolits.

[dagger dog]

I have the Hornady set, with a powder compression die and a Lyman taper crimp die and the cheap $6.00 expanders in .457.458.459" from TOTW, they fit in the Lee powder through expander die.

[iron brigade]

The Lee sizers aren't too bad, but the expander will probably need a custom plug made (since they're made for j-word bullets) and the seaters are terrible for use with lead. The RCBS Cowboy dies are wonderful in 30-30, never used any in 45-70. My own set is an old CH4D one that has had a custom expander plug made for it, plus a BACO powder compression die and a Lymn taper crimp die, modified as well.

If you haven't read Pat Wolf's book on loading ammo for the Trapdoor, you might want to get yourself a copy. He will get you up to speed quickly without as much experimenting. I wouldn't go drilling out the flash holes in your cases, but the rest is quite good.

-Nobade

That book is on my Christmas list. along with dies/brass/mould......

[John Boy]

I prefer Lee dies. what's best??? Don't know what's best but have been using Lee 45-70 dies for all my BPCR bullets and rifles for many years now. They work for me with never an issue

[fouronesix]

When setting up for 45-70 single shot, start with an idea of, "what bullet diameter you will be shooting". Most all dies are set up for modern chambers and bores. You'll find the old BP era originals usually aren't to modern specs and that includes the majority of the TDs.

I've settled on some combinations of dies for old 45-70s. For most of my cast bullet reloading I use a separate universal depriming die. For my TDs, I use a Lyman neck sizer with the depriming stem removed. For neck expanding I use a Lyman die with a custom expander available through Buffalo Arms. For bullet seating I use whatever die seems to work- for the TDs I'm using a Lee seater. Most single shots don't require death grip bullet-neck tension, therefore the bullet seating is very easy and requires minimal force and is done best with a seater plug that is compatible with the nose profile of the bullet your seating…. all done so the bullet is started and seated in a straight line with the neck.

[Larry Gibson]

The Lee dies work very well as a compression plug can easily be made for the expander die. I got the set from Wolf Traders years ago which had the extra die for compression. I also made another expander (.459 for my .4165 sized bullets). I augmented the set with the Lyman 45 cal NS die, Redding taper crimp die and the Lee FCD. The Lyman NS die greatly increases case life and reduces necessary case trimming. The Redding Taper crimp die is used to straighten out the case mouth flair. The Lee FCD is great for some crimping applications as is the Lee seating die when a roll crimp is needed. With my TDs I most often do not crimp.

Larry Gibson

[EDG]

What is the best??

The Lee sizer is ok.
The Lee expander stinks unless you buy custom expander plug or have one made.
The Lee seater does not work well with short bullets unless you have a really good expander like the Lyman M die type or a custom expander.

A Redding or Lyman neck die is probably the best sizer.
If you use a full lenght sizer a RCBS Cowboy would be a good one.
You will probably need a custom expander plug no matter what dies you buy. Here I would pick RCBS, Lyman or Lee.

The best seater is the Redding competition seater but it is pricey. The standard Redding is pretty good too.
If you need to crimp the Lee FCD seems to be the best.

[iron brigade]

So basically I should buy different dies from different manufactures. sounds like this rifle is going to be a challenge. at least with black.

[ihuntbear]

So basically I should buy different dies from different manufactures. sounds like this rifle is going to be a challenge. at least with black.
I don't resize after firing my brass, only the boolet is sized and lubed to .459 in my lyman 450 lube sizer..I reprime ,pore the charge ,add a paper wad then finger in boolet on top...reshot my brass many times..no issues...shooting a group of 5 shots ,1 1/6" at 100 yrds...I think resizing brass for single shot rifles is a waste of time and hard on the brass...I know a guy at the range that uses the same brass every shot..all he does is deprime ,reprime put the charge of powder in load it into the breech then muzzles loads the boollet...he shoots 1 " groups all day long...just my 2 cents

[Nobade]

I think it's more like over time you end up accumulating different dies and other tools to meet whatever needs you are presented with at that moment. One nice thing about BP loading for single shots is there's not much need for hard neck tension. So I end up rarely using a seating die at all, most of the time boolits are hand seated then a very light taper crimp applied just so they won't fall out. So very minimal sizing to start with, proper sized expander plug (same size as the boolit) and taper crimp. The powder compression die is extremely valuable though, can't do without it for long range rifle loads.

-Nobade

[JTeale]

I use the Lyman/Ideal 310 tool with one of the old 5-die sets to reload black powder cartridges for my H&R Buffalo Classic. I started with factory ammunition and have never sized any of my brass.

[TXGunNut]

I have the Hornady set, with a powder compression die and a Lyman taper crimp die and the cheap $6.00 expanders in .457.458.459" from TOTW, they fit in the Lee powder through expander die.


That's exactly what I've been using along with a Lyman Short Neck Sizer die. I hate the Hornady seating die so decided to try the Cowboy set. Don't need a seater die for BP loads but Marlin loads are another matter.

[doc1876]

My Lee sets all work perfectly, why I have so many I do not know. the Lee expander works perfectly also. the only thing I use the factory crimper for is the Hornady short cases for my nephew.

[freedom475]

I don't resize after firing my brass, only the boolet is sized and lubed to .459 in my lyman 450 lube sizer..I reprime ,pore the charge ,add a paper wad then finger in boolet on top...reshot my brass many times..no issues...shooting a group of 5 shots ,1 1/6" at 100 yrds...I think resizing brass for single shot rifles is a waste of time and hard on the brass...I know a guy at the range that uses the same brass every shot..all he does is deprime ,reprime put the charge of powder in load it into the breech then muzzles loads the boollet...he shoots 1 " groups all day long...just my 2 cents

I'm with you...Don't wast your time or money on sizing dies! Just not needed for a trapdoor to preform at it's best.

Save you $$ to spend it on more lead, Odle Eynsford Powder, SPG lube, and gas. Get yourself a good depriming/priming tool(Meachams are nice!), a good mold, and a compression die.

You will have that old TD shooting in no time by following very simple methods....If you follow some others around you will be in for quite a $$$ ride..the list is endless, and it starts at chamber casting, bore slugging, cutom moulds, with resizing, anealing,, then of course a "custom expander die" ect ect ect The list never ends and it can be a nightmare!

Save yourself the headache...:mrgreen:

20:1 alloy (Not WW's !!)

SPG lube

Fire formed brass...Winchesters are nice cause they hold more powder.

Drop tube enough 1 1/2 or 2ff Olde Eynsford to reach the base of your bullet to start. Some say drop tubes aren't needed....I can stand by you on the line and tell if you droptube your powder charge by the sound your gun makes...YES it is very important to droptube, and every champion that I have shot with droptubes!

Wax paper wad..(.030/.060 veggies are fine but not needed)

Compress powder from 0 - .25" ...change compression by adding powder

Thumb seat a 500gr Govt bullet...

And a blow tube...5 HARD breaths between each shot. (if you use KIK powder this will be a waste of good air...but if you wipe between shots with a couple wets and a dry your accuracy will be as good)

My wager is that with this alone you will hit every milk jug at 100 yards and with a little compression variation you will hit the same jugs at 300yards with very little problem.

[iron brigade]

Okay, awesome info all.
so can I buy a rcbs decapper die and use that to decap? I have 2ffg old eyensford already and love the stuff. my Shiloh sharps shoots excellent with it. plan on getting the drop tube. so, no crimping needed? what mould? endless choices.

[country gent]

An old aluminum arrow shaft makes a great drop tube. Menards sells lengths of aluminum tubing 1/2 od 3/8 id and 36" long also. Its not hard to make a very nice drop tube. If your local club has an archery range watch it as arrows are often not found and can be picked up

[iron brigade]

Hey, that's a good idea!

[Don McDowell]

Okay, awesome info all.
so can I buy a rcbs decapper die and use that to decap? I have 2ffg old eyensford already and love the stuff. my Shiloh sharps shoots excellent with it. plan on getting the drop tube. so, no crimping needed? what mould? endless choices.

Get the Lyman M die set or the RCBS legacy, you can use the "M" expander die to compress the powder.
I use a Frankford arsenal funnel with the 4 inch extention to pour the powder slowly into the case, then compress the powder with the wad on top to just let the bullet seat.
You'll need to use the crimp in the seater die to just roll the case mouth back enough to take the flare that you used to keep from shaving the bullet base while seating out.
The Saeco 645 bullet cast from 20-1 does about anything a 45-70 needs to do on the target ranges.

[iron brigade]

This is what I ended up buying.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400767181074?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Nobade]

That looks like a good deal! And it comes with that spiffy gold coin. That should do the trick, but if you unwrap it it'll lose all the collector value! (Just kidding, go shoot some!)

-Nobade

[iron brigade]

my first loaded 45-70. 115569

[iron brigade]

I can't believe I have cast/loaded this long without the "M" die. what a wonderful die to use for cast bullets. I would like to thank everyone for their help and especially Don McDowell. I loaded 5 with 60 grains of 2ffg goex and 5 with 63 grains of same. no wad. bullet cast at .460 and I did not size them because I can't. no sizer yet.
alloy is 20:1. can't wait to shoot the old girl now.

[iron brigade]

update on my trapdoor.
57 grains of Old Eyensford shot the best. putting 3 into 1.5". the rifle shoots 15" high so I will have put on a higher front sight. the powder was compressed. swiss shot good to but not as good as OE. goex 2ffg shot poorly. but I did not compress those loads. more work to do but happy to be able to fire the gun.

[Don McDowell]

Lots of fun ain't it :)

[ihuntbear]

can u tell me why you guys are using a resizing die for your brass..I never resize after shooting them..after you shoot them the brass is formed for the rifle...all I do is bring my shot brass that I shot,decap then clean in soapy water,put though a tumbler to polish,ready to load.reprime with Lee reprimer,put in the right amount of powder,i use 50 grns compress the right amount,put in a newspaper wad then just seat the lube 530 grn boolet on top by hand ,no crimping...I can shoot tens all day long with this load

[Don McDowell]

Lucky you..

[EDG]

I bet those are great to carry in the field.


can u tell me why you guys are using a resizing die for your brass..I never resize after shooting them..after you shoot them the brass is formed for the rifle...all I do is bring my shot brass that I shot,decap then clean in soapy water,put though a tumbler to polish,ready to load.reprime with Lee reprimer,put in the right amount of powder,i use 50 grns compress the right amount,put in a newspaper wad then just seat the lube 530 grn boolet on top by hand ,no crimping...I can shoot tens all day long with this load

[iron brigade]

can u tell me why you guys are using a resizing die for your brass..I never resize after shooting them..after you shoot them the brass is formed for the rifle...all I do is bring my shot brass that I shot,decap then clean in soapy water,put though a tumbler to polish,ready to load.reprime with Lee reprimer,put in the right amount of powder,i use 50 grns compress the right amount,put in a newspaper wad then just seat the lube 530 grn boolet on top by hand ,no crimping...I can shoot tens all day long with this load
I had to size those brand new win cases because the case mouths were all bent in a little. and now a few that I did not catch coming out of the gun. landed on concrete.
anybody shooting schuetzen? I have a bunch of it.

[kokomokid]

ibear; Neck tension probably should be under a new topic. I could write a small book on what did NOT work. LB

[Don McDowell]

I had to size those brand new win cases because the case mouths were all bent in a little. and now a few that I did not catch coming out of the gun. landed on concrete.
anybody shooting schuetzen? I have a bunch of it.

65 grs of 2 f schuetzen,.030 fiber wad and a cci large rifle primer, under the postel or the rcbs 82084 bullet shoots very well in the handful of 45-70's that hang around here.