high wall slug gun

[appleseedgunsmith]

I thought it was time to give this its own thread. Originally under "shiloh vs. C. Sharps" , this is where i will chronicle my work on the high wall slug gun from now on. I transferred all my relevant posts so the process runs start to finish.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig. Posted 11-15-08:
hello,
anyone ever think of rebarreling an 1874 to 20 ga slug? i dont think that 12 ga would fit , even if it did the barrel would be pretty thin. a thick 20 ga sluggun would be awesome for deer hunting here in ohio, and with modern hyper-accurate slug ammunition you could actually use a vernier sight and extend your range a few hundred yards.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 11-18-08:
hyper accurate= any slug load capable of holding 2-3 MOA and some do even better. Yes you CAN take shots past a few hundred yards. you have to be COMPETENT with your rifle and be CONFIDENT of it and the load. not all hunters are sportsman first. some actually do it to put meat on the table- remember your ancestry! if your only shot is a few hundred yards and you are hungry, you either take it and make it count, or you stay hungry! also, in 1856 the sharps slantbreech model was made in a shotgun version. wouldnt it be nice if someone at one of the sharps companies came up with a sluggun with a 1:18-1:20 twist slug barrel and some saboted ammunition using the lyman 457125 or similar. think of the deer hunting possibilities in shotgun-only states!!!!

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 11-18-08:
There is more than one way to skin a cat! a new unbarreled action could be used to skirt some state laws, hence not a rifle per se. also, if the rifle company made it a production item, it could be classed as a shotgun. you could find an original shotgun and rebarrel it. werent there rolling blocks imported a few years ago in 14 ga rechambered to 12? get one of those. in my state a shotgun for deer hunting is described as 10 ga or smaller using one ball or slug per barrel, rifled barrel permitted and no buckshot allowed, gun capacity limited to 3 shells. a simple plug gauge (12 or 20?)will tell them it is not an over 50 cal rifle.but you are right to a point, you may have to do some explaining to one of those idiots they call game wardens. a right that isnt exercised or fought for isnt much of a right. besides, wouldnt that be cool?

if you need more education on modern slugs, try rem buckhammer, lightfield, hornady sst. for guns try tar-hunt, H&R ultraslug, and ithaca deerslayer I,II,III

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 11-19-08:
did a little clay prototyping today to further investigate the validity of saboted bpcr shotgun rounds. the sabot face is concaved to catch air easier and fascilitate separation. and this is my .50-90 / 750 gr in a 12 ga . as far as quality goes, i own a c. sharps. the difference between them and shiloh is nearly meaningless at the black powder level. both are used in the winners circle according to bpcr match results posted in black powder cartridge news. ive seen and handled both and cant find discrepancies. shilohs are probably used more because they are more famous and they are available in greater quantities. shiloh is investment cast and the c. sharps is machined from billet. black will cause neither any problems and ruger has shown that castings can be strong! the c. sharps will handle loads that are on the scary side according to published smokeless loads in customer letters.

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[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 3-14-12
Sharps slug revisited
Projects get put on the back burner but never forgotten. Been busy with a .444 black powder roller. This is a prototype 12 ga cardboard sabot and its alumnium model with .50-90 bullet. Not perfect but good enough until I get around to custom ordering paper tubes. In talks with ballard about a slug gun in 20 ga using same design. Never say CAN'T!
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[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 4-15-13:
got one of the last navy arms rolling block receivers. barreled it with a HEAVY 1.250 bbl cut with a custom reamer for.444 marlin black powder only. leatherwood malcolm scope & dz mounts. 435 gr bullet 60gr goex 3f. I get the impression from some of the purist primadonnas on here & other sites that I committed a sacrilege in turning the 444 into a working black powder round, but it works great and has near moa accuracy. wait till they see the 20 ga rifled single shot sluggun im working on now

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 2-03-14:
latest update....... slug gun barrel has arrived.....octagon! thanks John Taylor

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 03-03-14
latest info....... my action is here. looks like its gonna be an 1885 20 ga

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 03-06-14
game warden is gonna love this!!! (notice the pope rib attached to a leatherwood scope)

114361

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 03-16-14
I have since found that the 20 ga high wall receiver was modified to accept a shotshell, so I had to find someone capable of performing the task. the rear of the receiver (the ears and trough behind the breech block mortise) must be bored out, not just enlarged. the shell is actually inserted straight from the rear and can't be dropped down in. also, forend collar must be lowered for the larger barrel. work to be done next month. Then comes the 20 ga reamer design. been talking to some professional slug shooters about custom chamber dimensions as well as my own thoughts on design, since they aren't giving up a lot of their secrets.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 3-17-14
couldn't hunt deer in Ohio with a regular rifle, ( that may change this year with new laws, which makes the project moot) so I said " why not?" I have two other bp rifles, a c sharps 1874 .50-90 and a custom pedersoli/ navy arms rolling block in .444 marlin, known as .42x 2 2/10. the slug gun is rifled. it's actually a pac-nor .600 nitro barrel that mikes .620 groove that will become a 20 ga slugger that I had octagoned by john taylor

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 6-11-14
Stolen gun.....action only... was c. sharps arms 1885 single trigger, pistol grip, in white. ser # A85-182 disappeared on Easter weekend while in ups custody in Chicago area. paperwork filed with batfe

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 6-14-14
Custom reamer now on order...... if it works, I'll pass along the dimensions

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 6-15-14
does anyone have access to a pair of lyman 457193/405gr and 457125/525gr molds for a side x side comparison pic of the two cast bullets? I'm wanting to know how close the shank lengths match, base to crimp, or......a good drawing of each showing groove locations.I know the heavier has a longer shank by about 040, but if the base was shaved back, would the grooves match the lighter one exactly?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Orig post 6-28-14
got a response & pic from lyman. already ordered a 457193 for use in 20 ga slug. a modified 457125 is on the wishlist for later use.

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(The idea here was to be able to design a cardboard sabot that works with both weight of bullets, if the shanks can be made the same length)

[appleseedgunsmith]

07-15-14
Well, replacement action back from taylor machine. First high wall 20 ga shotgun in 100 yrs (maybe? )114299
114308

[appleseedgunsmith]

Also. Reamer arrived yesterday 08-22-14. Thanks to Dave manson!

[bigted]

cool beans. i know i for one will be interested in the project clear to the end. doing great just would like to see more photo's of your project as it comes together.

thanks tons for posting this.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Next stop. ........threading, barreling, & chambering.....this one could take awhile. Not many more pics to post. I will say that the reamer has custom specs. One of which is there is no regular 5deg. forcing cone to speak of.

[Nobade]

I too am interested in this. I never wanted to do sabots, but rather full diameter boolits and have wondered what the reamer should look like. The Savage bolt action 20ga. seems to be the easiest way to get there but yours is a lot more elegant! Keep us posted.

-Nobade

[Chill Wills]

This is both interesting and out of my scope of knowledge. I would guess that there is something to be learned from the Double Gun chamber designs if full diameter bullets and rifled barrels are to be used.
I don't need one but I want one......... When complete, this "20 GA shotgun" will be able to flatten any game in North America.

I will keep watching, Good luck -Chill Wills

[bigted]

thanks for posting the additional photo's. helps a bunch for me to visualize your project in a proper way. i really like the concept.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Another pic of the scope. Malcolm short scope modified by attaching a pope rib. Usmc mounts added and all screws upgraded. Total cost......half of an mva b5 with mounts!

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[bigted]

that would be the leatherwood with unertl style mounts eh? i have often desired to get that very scope from Buff arms for my 40-65 roller. problem with my roller is as an original ... it has a tremendous drop in the butstock and my chin would have to be on the comb for seeing thru a scope mounted as close to the barrel as i could. thought about getting another butstock that has a higher comb for scope shooting but ... alas the cost would be jumping higher and higher so i havnt done so yet.

nice looking scope and mounts. i bet it will serve you well ... is this the 6X?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Yes. Leatherwood 6x18. Pope rib homemade with concave bottom. Attached with Industrial loctite 620. Blocks are by steve earle.

[appleseedgunsmith]

I have shot full bore bullets in rmc turned brass in my 12 ga h&r turning it into a "12bore rifle". 830gr with 180 gr goex @ 1300fps will damage you!

[appleseedgunsmith]

Some of the high wall dimensions. The important one is the .815" at rear of receiver. This area must be bored from the rear, not cut from the top with an endmill to enlarge the trough. Boring leaves more material at the top to stabilize the breech block.funny thing, the breechblock drops far enough that it needs no modification!

114498



Also, collar at the front must be lowered by .200" for the heavy barrel (approx #5 win. oct. bbl weight)

[appleseedgunsmith]

Finally got a call from batfe about my action getting stolen. 6 months after it happened!!!!! Also in same week I broke my leg. Not a lot going to happen with this until spring im afraid.

[bigted]

man what a bummer my friend. when it rains HUH? sorry to hear bout your bad run ... guess it will be anothers turn in the barrel tho now ... you already served your turn sounds like.

[appleseedgunsmith]

When it rains.....it sux! Maybe ill work on reloading tools for this thing awhile.hoping to get chambered in feb.

[bigted]

awsome. you say the action got stolen?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Sure did. En route back to me from taylor machine. Mr taylor got it replaced and I am back in business!

[Whiterabbit]

Are you loading slugs in brass cases? I would like to know your process details. I don't care if its full bore or sabot, or 12 or 20 ga, I'm curious what you use for dies, specifically whether you size or not, and whether you crimp or not. And if you don't crimp, how you keep the boolit in place.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Ive done full bore in 12 ga brass. Not for this tho. The idea is to use cardboard sabots and 45-70 bullets. Ill need a compression die and a roll crimper with a hollow center for protruding bullets. Custom made, of course since nobody stocks such things.

[appleseedgunsmith]

My 12 bore project used rmc cases. Custom 830gr conicals and 180 grs black powder
(6 drams!)its brutal! I have scars. They were loaded with a combination wooden block and seating bullets on turret press between stations so the bullet would hit the turret as if in an arbor press . Reload life has been great. Thats just too much bullet even scaled to 20ga.
Also brass cases that are groove dia id are expensive lathe turned propositions and the magtech cases are too thin to work properly with the PROPER sabot dia. The proper sabot is too small for the case. A sabot that fits the case would be crushed and distort the bullet I want to use. I examined the option of using smaller 24 ga magtech cases and cutting a very custom wildcat chamber. 20ga barrel/24 ga case. Too many problems and too esoteric. Also the cases arent long emough to hold the powder charges I require. I also like the idea of making it work with factory ammo......in a pinch.

[appleseedgunsmith]

118851


Ouchy from 830gr@1300 fps

[appleseedgunsmith]

118852




H&R "12bore"

[appleseedgunsmith]

Red rubber pad comming. Was hoping for a hawkins, but pachmayr d752b appears a better fit. Now its time to get the dies figured out. Thatll keep me occupied this winter......action to get barrelled in feb.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Got my hull spin doctor made119287


Made a few calls about a priming tool today as well.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Primer installation punch made. Not bad for two hours on a broken leg! Ch4d said a press mounted tool would be prohibitively expensive and never heard from meacham. I figure the lee style will work until I can get an rcbs or lee ram prime modified to work on the press.

[appleseedgunsmith]

The set.....using 3/16 hardened steel dowel pin for the punch.

120481

[woodbutcher]

:shock: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyy.This is going to be a fun build.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Hang Fire]

Sounds like you are well on your way to having a deer slaying reach out and get'em.

Even the little .410 with slugs in a rifled barrel can stay right up with the 45-70.

http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/Big410Ballistics.html

[appleseedgunsmith]

It crossed my mind to try a .410 with brass cases and a proper bore/groove to match......sort of an undersized .44-75 ballard

[appleseedgunsmith]

Leatherwood usmc mount declicked.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Got my 20ga bp compression die mostly done. On 7/8 die thd. Thats a THIN WALL ......about .030"!


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[bigted]

awesome. how is the rifle coming? this is shaping up to be a blaster for sure im thinkin.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Waiting for uncle sam on that. And my leg to mend....Btw.....a 50bmg priming stem is a perfect fit for 209 primers. Thanks dave @ ch4d!

[appleseedgunsmith]

Now that the cast is off I tried modifying a shellholder to 3/8 id hole for the bmg ram prime. Wall thickness in the retainer groove is about .029" would be good enougj for priming. Have a custom shellholder comming from a friend threaded 7/8 like a bmg. Wall thickness will be much better.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Now that the cast is off I tried modifying a spare shellholder to 3/8" id hole for the bmg ram prime. Wall thickness in the retainer groove is about .029" & would probably be strong enough for priming. Have a custom shellholder tho comming from a friend threaded 7/8" like a bmg. Wall thickness will be much better.

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[appleseedgunsmith]

Real shell holder came yesterday as I worked on the test model. Works great. Thank you doc skinner!

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[MT Chambers]

Couldn't you just get a used Mec 600 junior for these tasks?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Not for custom slugs using heavy 45-70 bullets that extend past the end of the shell. Prime on a mec? Sure. Then the machine sits useless. And if I decide to go rmc lathe brass the mec may not cut it. Theyre tough to prime. Not to mention if the cases needed resized, id still need a shell holder and a sizing die.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Hull vise came yesterday. All I need is a hollowed out crimper for reloading tools. Btw thats a rem. Accutip sabot with a speer 400 gr 45-70 fn stuck in it. Fits perfectly!
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[appleseedgunsmith]

Gun out getting barrelled.....finally!

[appleseedgunsmith]

131575

Hull crimper finished! (shown next to a bpi 12 ga crimper. Thanks to Ed Hubel a bit for info for this one. ) Now to test it.....

132629

Voila! Effortless and almost instant. (Second photo updated to include aluminum sabot prototype and lyman bullet)

[appleseedgunsmith]

Made a sizing die from a lyman 310 adapter. Screws into the bottom of the press plate.134917

134918

[appleseedgunsmith]

The reamer design......
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[appleseedgunsmith]

Ta-dah!

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[appleseedgunsmith]

More pics....

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[appleseedgunsmith]

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[appleseedgunsmith]

Next to my .444 rolling block

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[appleseedgunsmith]

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[appleseedgunsmith]

Off to the stockmaker today....

[appleseedgunsmith]

Made a chamber gauge from the leftover bbl chunk.
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I can also check the fit of wads and sabots and the relationship between them and throat

[appleseedgunsmith]

Latest update....... Called the stock guy. Gun won't be done til mid-winter

[missionary5155]

Greetings
This seens like an epic novel. That loaded round looks like a anti-tank device. I salute your patience and it will pay off.
Mike in Peru

[appleseedgunsmith]

Latest info......stocking not done. Been working on powder compression issues. Designed a new sliding stem 20ga compression die and thanks to Buckshot, now its a reality!


167269

[appleseedgunsmith]

Just got word that stock is done! Time for finish and shipping to me

[RonT]

'Bout time......:). Got a place to set it off?
R

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy Apple
The Feller you want to talk to is Randy Fritz at Tarhunt , he has been shooting 20 ga. rifled slug guns for years, he builds them an ships them all around the world
I have seen him shoot a ragged hole at 100 yds many a time
Dusty Ed

[appleseedgunsmith]

Talked to tar hunt. Nice work, but didn't like his prices. Ron - yes, about 3 well known ranges within half hour alone!

[RonT]

As you know, I'm stuck in the middle,;)...., hour and a half both ways. But, if I wanna' shoot....
Cheers,
R

[appleseedgunsmith]

Absolutely!

[appleseedgunsmith]

Absolutely!

[appleseedgunsmith]

174677

Tah-dah!!!!

[Hamish]

​more pics!!

[appleseedgunsmith]

174696

[bigted]

INDEED !!!!!!! now that is a rifle my friend. what a beautiful piec of workmanship. color me green. nice work indeed. i really like the pistol grip and cheek piece. i cant wait to hear and see some range reports as well as target pictures with that big .62 cal hole in them.

have you taken time to figure how many hours involved you are in this project?

[Jedman]

Myself and another member built custom 410 fully rifled deer guns for use in Ohio about 4 years ago before they legalized some strait walled rifle cartridges for deer gun season.
We were shooting heavyweight 44 cal. bullets out of plastic cased 410 hulls and found the 209 primers to be the weak link as to how far we could go with pressure before something failed.

In Ohio if using a shotgun you cannot use a all metallic case so we found WW AA plastic casings to take quite a bit a pressure ( 1 time ) but at a point probably above 25000 psi the primers would come apart but not with any danger to the shooter using a H&R handi rifle that fully supports the cartridge.

With a 20 ga. using saboted bullets with a higher BC at similar pressures should be a very effective deer gun.

Jedman

[appleseedgunsmith]

Never counted. Not about time. I do stuff as time and $$$ allow. My roller took about 4 yrs, so who knows?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Well I live in Tenn now. So pretty much anything goes

[Drm50]

I'm Ohio deer hunter too. I have never seen any law against brass casings on shotgun shells. The
law 410-10g -smooth bore- firing a single projectile. We were working around this with a 410 too.
We were using 444 Marlin brass, with just enough neck to hold 410 slug. Action was Brit Enfield
rebarrel with a 30cal MG barrel bored out to smooth. We also tried 41 cast bullets. We got Velocity, but about 16" groups at 100. Before we got it refined, Ohio made rifled barrels legal.
We did turn 444 off brass and stamp barrel 410 to avoid hassle with wardens.

[Jedman]

Drm50,
Believe me there is such a rule in the " allowed " deer hunting equipment for shotguns.
I discussed it fully with the DNR before hunting with our 44 shotguns and the rule still exist now even though you can use some rifles with strait walled cases.

Jedman

[appleseedgunsmith]

I checked. That rule is there now. Wasn't always that way tho.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Gun went for bluing finally!

[appleseedgunsmith]

187228

[appleseedgunsmith]

Went another route with the scope. My mva b5 with no.2 mount is in the mail today!

[appleseedgunsmith]

194867

[uncle dino]

What did you end up using for sabots? D

[appleseedgunsmith]

First attempt will be factory hornadys. First homemade will be 58 minie in ballistic prod steel shotcups

[appleseedgunsmith]

Ladies n gentleman......the first ever 1885 highwall 20ga buffalo sluggun w/scope
195712

[nekshot]

Now thats a beast for the beast!! Nice finished gun. Think you could go duck hunting with it?:p

[appleseedgunsmith]

Thinking rabid dinosaur.......

[appleseedgunsmith]

Actually the original expectation was to use it for long range deer hunting. Laws have changed over the years, making it not necessary, but hey, why the hell not?

[appleseedgunsmith]

1885 Sluggun's first range test... Inconclusive but promising... Two in one hole after a scope adjustment! Different brand on right. On to black powder load experimenting...



196073

[appleseedgunsmith]

Black powder slugs. sans crimp since I need 3" and I only have 2 3/4". Good way to test out some tools tho.


196150

[appleseedgunsmith]

First time out with Bp slugs in my 1885. Here's what I know:

It's perfectly safe, pressure wise. Oversize wad/slug combo squeezes down just fine. Actually the felt recoil is less than factory sabots.

Not real accurate, but for a first try, they aren't much different than groups from regular slugguns and factory sabots.

Shells last one shot only because of burn thru.

Some wads were recovered which means the glue didn't hold. Need better glue, or use wad as a discarding sabot.

Lots of fouling, plastic and black powder both. Maybe more prelubed wads. I made a few by soaking felt wads in home lube for the 6 cheddite cases. Others didn't have them and groups were even worse.

Shells are a snug fit in chamber, but all fit even tho they wouldnt fit in a factory check gauge.

Crimp not needed. Slug/wad combo is a tight press fit




196308

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy Appleseed
Have you talked Randy Fritz Tarhunt he has been experimenting with 20 ga. slugs for years, I have witnessed him shooting trough the same hole 50yds.
Right now he is working on a full bore 20ga. slug that weights in at around 180grs. He builds an ships 20ga. rifles all over the world.
He is the most Knowledgeable Gunsmith that I know.
Dusty Ed

[appleseedgunsmith]

Yes I have. Unfortunately his guns were waaaay beyond my monthly budget. I've seen the cartridges he calls "schriffle". Also too expensive for large volume shooting. Good Craftsmanship tho.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Latest test was with discarding sabots instead of non-discarding. Velocity is 1000fps. Group was 3.5"@ 100yds. 4 shots. 2 in one hole!



197404

[appleseedgunsmith]

For anyone interested in trying, you CAN compress black powder in a shotshell. I'm up to .250" & no problems.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Not a matter of need. I just wanted it to try long shots like 45-70 etc are capable of.....AND it's different! Ever seen a 20ga at bpcr?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Would you feel confident shooting a Target at 600 yds with a rem870 & Hastings bbl?

[appleseedgunsmith]

Size die ordered for Minnie's to straighten out skirts that are dented in shipping. Unfortunately buckshot no longer makes custom dies, so I had to look elsewhere. Lee will do them custom, but in past experience their turnaround time can be either short or long.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Also putting the finishing touches on separate 50yd and 100yd test ranges at the new house

[appleseedgunsmith]

Got some very, very heavy bullets on order. Made from Lyman 57730 minie with a solid flat base

[Nobade]

That should shake you up a bit!

[appleseedgunsmith]

Rattle some teeth. maybe 700-800gr

[appleseedgunsmith]

Was told bullets on way....about 735 gr

[appleseedgunsmith]

208710
Contact Ed at Maplewood bullets for more info

[appleseedgunsmith]

I may have cracked the problem of sabots inside sabots and how it's hard to stop the rotation of the separate parts and glues don't seem to work...... maybe more later.........

[appleseedgunsmith]

I now have a smokeless 720 gr load (actual weight of bullets, not 735) that hits 1000 fps+. Accuracy has not improved as of yet. Not out of ideas yet tho.....

[appleseedgunsmith]

212472

[appleseedgunsmith]

Well I finally had some good luck. Avg down to about 4.5"@50yds and 1060 fps! This is two different 3shot groups using ched209 (1-3) and rem209kbMZ (4-6)
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[appleseedgunsmith]

220264

This is my final entry for this post as I don't feel I have anything more to prove at this point. Thanks to all that have helped me get this far. Next stop is fine tuning & black powder (again) and bpcr watch out!