Pietta revolvers

[snowwolfe]

I am thinking of entering the cap and ball crowd. Purpose will be to use it for muzzle loading hunting so I am not concerned about traditional revolvers.
Does Pietta offer any models suitable for deer hunting with adjustable sights and in stainless?

I do see a target model in blued steel, does anyone have any feedback on it?

[DougGuy]

One of THESE would be really neat!

http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_ClementsFugett.html
(http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_ClementsFugett.htm)
Why not a Ruger Old Army? They seem to be cheap enough and certainly strong enough.

[SSGOldfart]

you better check on the laws, when I lived in Tn. a muzzle loader had to loaded through the muzzle a cap and ball is not a muzzle loader they both shoot with black powder, but Tn. had a muzzle loader season, not a black powder season.
just saying I've been down that road 12 or 13 years ago

[Beagle333]

If I were going to try to down a deer with a cap n ball, I would use no less than a Walker. With 60 grains of powder, it is your best bet at having enough energy transferred to get the job done. (if the law allows it there) And Pietta doesn't make a Walker, you'd have to go with Uberti or ASM.

Of course you can "kill" a deer with a smaller .44, but our state also allows hunting with spears, and I just don't see either one as a worthwhile adventure.

[SSGOldfart]

If I were going to try to down a deer with a cap n ball, I would use no less than a Walker. With 60 grains of powder, it is your best bet at having enough energy transferred to get the job done. (if the law allows it there) And Pietta doesn't make a Walker, you'd have to go with Uberti or ASM.

Of course you can "kill" a deer with a smaller .44, but our state also allows hunting with spears, and I just don't see either one as a worthwhile adventure.

Humm not sure that's a correct statement
my Pietta 44 has dropped a number of deer,most were in the 40 to60 yard range from a tree stand never had any trouble with about 1/2 of that load, my rb is a .457

[rodwha]

Agreed. Check your laws first as cap n ball pistols often don't qualify, though it's possible it may accompany a proper weapon as a sidearm such as here in TX, though it can be used during regular season.

If you can use a cap n ball revolver anything in.44/.45 caliber ought to do well, especially if a more energetic powder (Swiss, Olde Eynsford by Goex, or Triple 7) is used. Other powders will likely give you energy figures below 300 ft/lbs, whereas these I mentioned can produce closer to 400 ft/lbs.

This is a 6 part video in which Mike Beliveau tests 2 Rugers with both standard Goex and Triple 7 to compare RB's, the Lee conical, and a Kaido bullet.

If you cannot use a revolver you can look at any of the several muzzleloading pistols such as the Lyman Plains Pistol or Traditions Trapper or Kentucky.

[rodwha]

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_187_189&products_id=14049

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_187_189&products_id=4057

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Black-Powder-Revolvers|/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/567338580/Pietta-Model-1858-New-Army-Stainless-44-Caliber-Target-Revolver/705740.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fblack-powder-revolvers%2F_%2FN-1115136%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_567338580%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat1047 92580%253Bcat104701680&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat104701680%3Bcat567 338580

There's also a Pietta Shooter's model which has a cost over $700.

[Beagle333]

A Ruger Old Army will shoot a .457 RB about 1036 fps with a 41 grain load of Goex FFFFg according to Lyman's Black Powder Handbook. That's about 340 ft-lb of kinetic energy. I impressed that a person can regularly not only cleanly hit, but drop deer at over 40 yards with a muzzle energy of 280±ft-lbs from a 30±gr BP load in a Pietta. I guess mine was not a correct statement. I apologize.

[rodwha]

I can fit 40 grns of powder in my Pietta Remington '58 with a .457" ball.

33 grns of 3F Triple 7 achieves 1062 fps and 371 ft/lbs with a .457" ball from a Ruger, and that's a reduced load with mild compression. I intended to post the video clip #1, but I must have messed up. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WNYGs2_UZw

[rodwha]

And 1036 fps with a 41 grn charge of 4F Goex is exactly why I wouldn't use any of the weaker powders.

If a mere 33 grns of 3F T7 can produce 1062 fps imagine what 40 grns would do. And I can squeeze in 45 grns in my Ruger.

My Pietta seems to hold 3-5 grns less 3F powder than my Ruger.

[rodwha]

And with a reduced charge of 25 grn and mildly compressed T7 he gets a 255 grn Kaido bullet to produce almost 500 ft/lbs.

Reducing the charge of Triple 7 is often stated as a safety issue, that it must be reduced, but when you read Hodgdon's site it does not state that at all, but that it's to replicate what a BP load would achieve, which isn't talking about Swiss or Olde Eynsford as they give very similar velocity when compared by volume as T7.

I won't go as far as to say it's not necessary or a good idea to reduce the charge in a repro, but there's no reason to in a Ruger built with modern gun grade steel and not mild steel.

Hodgdon's also doesn't state it necessary to compress the powder mildly in anything but a cartridge. For everything it else it states "firmly" in comparison.

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

[rodwha]

Using a bullet and energetic powders can give or surpass a modern .45 Colt load (excluding of course the Ruger only loads), and that is certainly plenty for medium game.

I created a bullet that weighs 195 grns with a WFN design that's only .460" long so as not to take up powder capacity over what a ball would. I'm looking forward to what it can be pushed to from my Ruger. It's more accurate load is with 35 grns of either 3F Olde E or T7.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

[rodwha]

Figured it and found the reduced T7 load and ball has about 280 ft/lbs at 40 yds, which is what the 41 grns of 4F Goex gives at the muzzle.

[rodwha]

Oh, and Mike's figures are off a tad as he used 148 grns for the ball, which ought to be 144 grns.

[snowwolfe]

you better check on the laws, when I lived in Tn. a muzzle loader had to loaded through the muzzle a cap and ball is not a muzzle loader they both shoot with black powder, but Tn. had a muzzle loader season, not a black powder season.
just saying I've been down that road 12 or 13 years ago

Good point. I will ask the "experts" over on the Tennessee deer forum before proceeding and post the answer here. Might buy a BP revolver regardless if I can find a local store that sells black powder just for grins

Yep, they are legal "Muzzleloading firearms are defined as those firearms which are incapable of being loaded from the breech".

[Hellgate]

Some states (like here in Orygun) have fairly restrictive muzzle loader hunt rules. Orygun prohibits double rifles & revolvers. Also one must use loose powder and a PRB or all lead projectile. No sabots. No scopes or battery enhanced sights (light gathering and day-glo paint is OK). Ignition must be exposed to the elements (no closed breeches) by percussion caps or flintlock, no rifle or shotgun primers. We have wet weather about 9 months of the year on the west side of the state.

[swathdiver]

Paper ballistics are meaningless when it comes to cap and ball or muzzleloaders shooting soft lead for that matter. If that's the old Lyman book, today's powders are far more powerful anyhow. A Kaido conical loaded over Triple 7, SWISS or Olde Eynsford will blow through both shoulders of a 350lb hog and keep going let alone a deer. It will penetrate twice as many jugs (15) as a .30-06.

[Fly]

In my state cap & ball in muzzle loading season is a no, no.I no longer hunt deer.
But when I did I carried a CVA mountain pistol 50 cal.I loaded 40 grains.I finished
off a deer with it, no problem.

Fly

[koger]

Here in KY a cap an ball revolver is considered a ML, as is a .54 paper cartridge Sharps repro! I have a Lee mold that casts a 210grain slug, with a wad and 35 grains of 3fffg, in my Ruger old army,it is a cannon. I know physics don't lie, but the 2 deer I shot with mine died right there, I sure am glad someone did not tell them it would not suffice!

[snowwolfe]

Thanks for all the input but I just bid on and won a NIB stainless Ruger Old Army. I think it will do everything I need it to do. Might still pick up a Pietta if I find one on sale.

[rodwha]

Nice!

If you find that you want to just shoot bullets you can contact Ruger and they'll send you a .45 Colt Blackhawk front sight free of charge. Bullets strike way too high for the RB sight.

[mazo kid]

I can't believe Lyman published that ffffg load! I didn't believe it so checked it myself. Ffffg black powder ( in my estimation) should never be used for anything but a small booster charge or a flintlock pan powder. In larger loads, like that listed, the pressures are very high and erratic from what I have read. I would think that 40 grains of 3fg would be close to a max. load. You will note that Lyman did state that the load was used in a "special test revolver". I wouldn't want to be standing next to someone shooting that load in a C&B revolver!

[rodwha]

There's a fellow who did a lot of research on Civil War pistol cartridges and found that Hazard's Revolver Powder used in the .44 cal pistols with a conical used 4F powder that had the power level comparable to Swiss powder. Granted the powder capacity was used up with a lengthy conical, and so the idea was to make it up by using a finer grade powder. This is a small powder charge (no more than maybe 20 grns IIRC). It's quite a lengthy write up and he gave permission to share it. I'd be willing to email to you if you care to read it.

I wouldn't use 4F, but I don't need to using 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 as it gives plenty of oomph, and my bullets don't take up powder capacity like that anyway.

[mazo kid]

Rodwha, I would like to read that article about using the ffffg powder load. Thanks.

[rodwha]

PM me your email address and I'll send it (2 parts) as well as a nice write up of his Remington 1858 as it's a good read.

[JTeale]

Some states (like here in Orygun) have fairly restrictive muzzle loader hunt rules. Orygun prohibits double rifles & revolvers. Also one must use loose powder and a PRB or all lead projectile. No sabots. No scopes or battery enhanced sights (light gathering and day-glo paint is OK). Ignition must be exposed to the elements (no closed breeches) by percussion caps or flintlock, no rifle or shotgun primers. We have wet weather about 9 months of the year on the west side of the state.

In other words, you have to use real muzzle loaders, not those plastic toys.:mrgreen:

[Alan]

When the ROA was under development, they tested it with a load that they estimated at 90kpsi. The gun survived. When Ruger said any black powder, they meant it. That being said, mine do quite well on a diet of Goex FFg.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

For the original OP, I think you selected a fine revolver for black powder hunting. If you're looking to pick up a Pietta, cabelas often has them on sale. But after picking up two, I would go with the base model or a target model. If for some reason I got backordered, I would cancel immediately and wait for the next sale.

The italians appear to take lots of vacations, so delivery can be kinda sketchy if you get back ordered and recently, cabelas has not treated it's backordered customers well. I know this from personal experience.

[snowwolfe]

Actually made a trip to Cabelas on Monday looking for a Pietta Target model but none were in stock. They look like good value for the money and having an extra would please the wife on the days she accompanies me to the range. I did manage to swing by Bass Pro again and buy out the remaining Remington caps so I am good to go.

Does the Pietta Target 44 use the same size .457 ball as the Ruger?

[rodwha]

I believe Pietta states to use the .451" as their chambers are typically about .446", but there's evidence that using a larger ball, which increases the bearing surface, increases the velocity and often the accuracy.

I use .457" RB's in mine as I only have the .457" RB mold, but I also had my chambers reamed to .449" and chamfered.

http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

Note the ballistics where the same powder and charge are used, but with larger diameter balls.

[Maven]

When the ROA was under development, they tested it with a load that they estimated at 90kpsi. The gun survived. When Ruger said any black powder, they meant it. That being said, mine do quite well on a diet of Goex FFg.

You guys may find this thread interesting and directly from one of the testers himself (C.E Harris): http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=10329&forum_id=6

[DougGuy]

Thanks for all the input but I just bid on and won a NIB stainless Ruger Old Army. I think it will do everything I need it to do. Might still pick up a Pietta if I find one on sale.

I think you will be better off in the long run with the Ruger, the more energy you can coax into the ball or boolit, the better a hunter you will be with it AS long as it is accurate, and the Ruger can take everything you can stuff in the cylinder except for maybe dynamite and maybe that too!

[Omnivore]

Among the Remingtons, Uberti has the faster rifling twist, more in keeping with modern 45s designed for 230 to 250 grain bullets. If I were buying a Remington for hunting, i.e. using elongated bullets, I'd go for the Uberti over the Pietta. It may be a minor distinction or it may not, but ALL modern 44s and 45s use a much faster twist than than Pietta's 44s have in them. I don't know what Ruger used, but I'd bet it's faster also (in the range of 15" to 18") being as Ruger took that gun seriously.

[rodwha]

My Pietta Remington has a 1:16" twist. I'm guessing they sped it up when they retooled as I've read the previous models had a slower 1:30" twist or so.

Mine isn't quite as accurate as my ROA, though my Remington has a 5.5" barrel and my Ruger has a 7.5" barrel, but it does equally well with my short 170 and 195 grn bullets as it does with a ball at 15 yds. It's more accurate powder charge is 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 with either bullet. These bullets are short though, with the 195 grn bullet being only .460" long so as not to take up valuable powder capacity.

The Ruger is also 1:16" twist.

[rodwha]

My Remington was a Christmas gift this past December.

[rodwha]

One of the bigger downsides to the Pietta is that they didn't design the loading window with enough clearance to load much else than a ball, and the loading ram really sits deep in it. I had to file and sand my frame to load even my 170 grn WFN which is only .400" long.

The chambers are also smaller at .446". I had mine reamed to .449" so that I can more easily share bullets with my Ruger which drop at .455-6".

[Southron]

Well, IF I was going deer hunting with a revolver, I would get a Uberti Walker. Send it off to Goon for an "action job" that includes a post to prevent caps from jamming the action.

Then I would get a good, adjustable, partridge rear sight and a taller front sight and have both dovetailed and installed on the pistol. The rear sight, right in front of the cylinder on the rear of the barrel. Then I would used a Kaido bullet and Swiss Black Powder.

Then I would shoot it to the point I was sufficiently familiarized with it to make a killing shot with the first shot!

Sorry, I have tracked down way too many wounded deer that friends wounded. Hopefully those days are way past.

[rodwha]

There are several guys who successfully hunt hogs with Remington 1858's, Colt 1860 Armies, and Ruger Old Armies.

The Colt "Dragoon" was used to kill buffalo, and seems to be the pistol mentioned having killed a grizzly with 2 shots when the soldier's .36 cal pistols did nothing significant.

Since 33 grns (reduced load) of 3F Triple 7 (which gives very similar velocity compared to equal volumes of Swiss and Olde Eynsford) produced nearly 500 ft/lbs with a 255 grn Kaido bullet from a ROA I'd see no reason to need a Walker to get the job done. That's a bit more than a typical modern .45 Colt load, and that will kill deer just fine as it's been doing on the hogs. Not that there's nothing wrong with more power!

I'm leery about using a ball from my Ruger Old Army, but feel confident that my 195 grn WFN would be plenty propelled by the 35 grn charge of 3F Olde Eynsford, which is the more accurate load that I've tried.

I would like to get a Walker myself, though it's lower on my list of ​needs.

[snowwolfe]

I have no intention of shooting deer beyond about 25 yards with the ROA. Would be nice to have something with more power but to many projects in the works at the moment.
Do you have a link to Goon's web site?