help a buddy with copper fouling

[9w1911]

338 win mag Cooper model 56
Extreme copper fouling after 5 rounds factory or reloaded ammo
Tried Barnes Ttsx 210gr and Hornady interlock 225gr over 4831 4350 and r17
Factory ammo was Rem 225 core lock

[williamwaco]

Is this a new rifle?

Was it already fouled when you got it?

[AggieEE]

To get the foulling out I would suggest Sweet's 7.62, it's ammoniun based so you might want to be outside. Once it's clean take a good look at the bore to see if you have any rough spots that you can see. Also, a tight patch will tell you if anything is grabbing. If that's ok shoot it again and it you still get fouling in large amounts search the site for fire lapping. Good Luck.

[sundog]

Wipe-out.

[swheeler]

I used Sweets 7.62 for decades, it works. I have used Barnes CR10, it works. Then I picked up a bottle of Montana Extreme Copper Killer, 50bmg special formula, it works mo better than the other two. Once you get a clean patch/no blue, scrub the barrel with JB's bore paste, couple treatments like that and you should find you extreme fouling problem all but gone.

[Ben]

Another vote for Wipeout !

Ben

[Artful]

http://www.frfrogspad.com/cleaners.htm

specifically http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm


Copper Fouling Removal
The "Ammonia Solution"
The typical "household ammonia" is only 3 percent and does not work very well as a copper remover. However, to remove copper fouling you can use use straight "strong ammonia" (9 - 10 percent) carried by many janitorial supply houses and hardware stores. My local ACE hardware carries the 10 percent janitorial strength for about $1.50 a quart and it works great straight, followed by a thorough cleaning with Ed's Red. Run a wet patch through the bore and allow to sit for about 5 minutes and proceed as usual. Don't use a brass bore brush or jag! I have seen no scientific proof that the use of ammonia in any strength will harm bores, IF the bore is thoroughly cleaned with bore cleaner after using ammonia to prevent after rust.
If your local ACE hardware store doesn't stock the "10% Janitor's Strength Ammonia," they can order it for you from their master order book. The stock number for the 1 quart size is ACE10183.
If you are worried about its high strength, you can bring it down to the 6 - 8 percent ammonia content of most commercial copper removers by cutting the janitor's strength ammonia with some K1 kerosene or water--try 3.5 to 4 parts 10% ammonia to 1 part water or K1 kerosene. This seems to have little, if any effect, on its copper removal abilities.
Straight 28% ammonia (CAS#7664-41-7) followed by a thorough cleaning with Ed's Red can also be used but 28 percent ammonia may be difficult to get and is VERY strong stuff and potentially aggressive on metal.
Some notes about Ammonia. Ammonia won't harm the rifle's metal, the pH is way down there for even 10% but as you get into stronger solutions (> 10%) the pH becomes basic ( >7 up to 14) and is caustic. The problem comes from ammonia being hygroscopic and folks not cleaning it all out of the bore and the attracted water then causes rusting. [As a test I left a polished mild steel strip in straight 10% ammonia for 48 hours and saw no noticeable corrosion or etching.]
Thanks to Roger Rothschild, Chemist, for this information.
...and an Improvement--"Humpy's White Bore Cleaner"
This modification of the "ammonia solution" thickens the liquid and helps to keep it in the bore for more efficient cleaning. You can if you like omit the 1-part sudsy ammonia

2 parts - 10% ammonia,
1 part - standard household "sudsy" ammonia (optional)
1 part - Ivory liquid dishwashing detergent (It has been reported that "Formula 409" can also be used though the resulting mixture is probably thinner.)
This formula yields about a 6.5 percent ammonia solution. If you omit the sudsy ammonia the solution is about 7.75 percent.
Thanks to Mark Humphreville for this solution
It has been reported that Kroils penetrating oil will remove copper fouling with light brushing if the bore is swabbed with it and allowed to sit overnight.
Electronic Fouling Removal
A Caveat
The Outers FoulOut operates at a very low voltage (.3 V - three-tenths) at the cleaning electrode. Higher voltages can start to etch the bore, and even at the lower voltage the Outers can do so if there is rust in the bore. While the simple designs given here can be used safely there exists the possibility of bore etching due to their higher voltages. This is a particular concern if you use the Outers solutions. The electrical problem with all the home-brew series current limited (by the short indicating lamp) devices is that they apply voltages that will start taking iron into the solution, according to the FoulOut patent information which has expired. This aspect of the circuitry deceives those without electrical backgrounds. They look at the batteries or the wall adapter voltage used to operate a FoulOut and assume it must be safe to apply that much voltage between the barrel and the rod. Not so. The voltage regulation schemes inside a FoulOut are designed to hold a 0.3V limit regardless of how many volts the power supply has.
Most shooters are familiar with the Outers FoulOut ™ electronic copper fouling remover that will remove unbelievable amounts of crud form a "clean" barrel. It is quite easy to build your own simple version of this handy device.
A Current and Voltage Limited Homemade Electronic Copper Fouling Remover
While this design is a little work to build it provides current and voltage limitation to prevent etching. You can download the article which is a 340K PDF document, by clicking here (http://www.frfrogspad.com/imprvdcr.pdf). This unit is designed to use the Outer's solutions or their homemade equivalents below.
It is best to remove the barreled action from the stock for cleaning. For best results clean and then degrease the bore with a commercial "gun scrubber" or automotive brake cleaner. Plug the chamber with the rubber stopper and carefully insert the rod down the bore and insure it is seated in the hole in the stopper. Using a dropper or a syringe fill the bore with the cleaning solution and the attach the black wire to the rod and red wire to the gun. If the gun is dirty the flashlight will glow but not at full power. If the flashlight immediately glows full power the rod is not centered in the bore and has caused a short. Allow the unit to work for 45 min or so, disconnect the leads and carefully pull the rod out of the bore. The accumulated copper fouling can be removed from the rod with fine steel wool. Drain the barrel, remove the stopper and dry the bore and chamber. Run a couple of patches with bore cleaner on them through the bore and chamber to prevent any after rust and you're done. Those of you with a background in metal plating may want to contribute your own solution recipes. Send them to me by clicking here (http://www.frfrogspad.com/mailme.htm).
36" long TIG welding rod in stainless steel are available from local welding shop. Get 3/32" and 1/8" diameters at a cost of about $1.25 each. Ideally you want a rod about 1/2 to 2/3 of the bore diameter.
Thanks to Robert Schaedel, et. al. for this tip.
Some Interesting Information.
Just for those of you with curious minds, the Outers CopOut Plus solution contain approximately 0.6 percent cupric acetate and 2.5 percent ammonium acetate (3.62 grams/ liter of copper acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of ammonium acetate) in distilled/deionized water. The LeadOut Plus contains approximately 2 percent lead acetate and 5 percent ammonium acetate (6.50 grams/liter of lead acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of ammonium acetate ) in distilled/deionized water. A good basic solution for either would be

Copper Solution
562.3 grains Ammonium Acetate
51.3 grains Copper Acetate or 58.3 grains Cupric Acetate Monohydrate
Add distilled (or high megohm deionized) water to make 1 Qt.
Lead Solution
562.3 grains Ammonium Acetate
95.0 grains Lead Acetate or 110.8 grains of Lead Acetate Trihydrate
Add distilled (or high megohm deionized) water to make 1 Qt.
Note that since the Outers FoulOut unit limits the voltage and current in the electrolysis process and runs at about .3 volts (3/10 volt)-- at typically a max of about 20 milliamps.
Possible sources for these chemicals in small quantities are:

Post Apple Scientific, Inc. http://www.postapplescientific.com
Sigma-Aldrich (800-325-3010) http://www.sigmaaldrich.com


This company lists 100 grams of Copper (II) Acetate for about $19 and 500 grams of Ammonium Acetate for about $17. If you assume $1.00 per gallon for distilled water, you can make the solution for copper removal for $1.60 per quart. This does not include shipping costs on the chemicals.
The Science Company http://www.sciencecompany.com
The following is from Outer's Q&A page.

Q. Why has the solution become discolored during use?
A. You need to check the solution about every 30 minutes to see if it has changed color. Pour all the chemical into a clear container to see if there may be a color change. Sometimes there may be sediment or a color change but it isn't apparent by simply looking at the chemical in the barrel.
If chemical is orange or orange/brown you may have some rust. If chemical is black you may be lifting iron from the barrel or its oxidized copper salts. It could also be some powder fouling being removed from the barrel. The unit may have been on too long without checking the solution color often enough.
Black/Gunky chemical could mean that in the first 30 minutes you hit a lot of lead and lead started to settle set the bottom of the barrel as well as on the rod. It could also mean the unit was left unchecked too long and rust has formed.
Green colored chemical could mean that you may be pulling out iron, blueing or rust. Sometimes new barrels will have blueing and its removing that.
Q. What do I do if the chemical changes color?
A. Dispose of the chemicals according to local and state laws. Clean the barrel using regular gun cleaning methods. Degrease the barrel and rod with Outers Crud Cutter. If you can't find Crud Cutter, you can use Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber or household rubbing alcohol. On a scale of 1 to 10, alcohol rates as a 2 and Crud Cutter rates as a 10. After cleaning and degreasing the barrel and rod, start the Foul Out III according to the instruction book. [Automotive brake cleaner is the same as the Birchwood or Outers products and cheaper. - Fr. Frog]
Q. The unit isn't cleaning fast enough.
A. To speed up the process, after cleaning for two hours, change the solution and you should obtain faster results.
Q. Can I Use Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus with my Foul Out II Unit?
A. Yes, You can use the Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus with Foul Out I and Foul Out II units. Because these are more potent chemicals than regular Cop Out and Lead Out, the customer needs to be more cautious and check the chemical for changes more often. The new chemicals will clean faster than the old.
Military Copper Fouling Removal Solution (c.1917)
Described in the US Military publications for the 1903 and M1917 rifles was the following "heavy duty" copper removal formula.


1 oz Ammonium persulfate
200 grains Ammonium carbonate
6 oz 28% ammonia
4 oz water
Finely grind the persulfate and carbonate, dissolve in the water and then add the ammonia. Allow to stand for 1 hour before using. Plug the breech and slip a piece of rubber hose over the muzzle. Fill the cold barrel and the section of hose with the solution. Allow to stand for 30 minutes. Dump the solution and clean the bore normally and oil.
Mac's Red
A modification of Ed's Red that is claimed to remove copper fouling was developed by Richard McQuisten and published in The Cast Bullet #113, Jan-Feb, '95.


1 part Dexron II, IIe or III Automatic Transmission Fluid
1 part K1 Kerosene
1 part Mineral Spirits or Stodard Solvent/Varsol
1 part Acetone
1 part GM Carburetor/Upper Cylinder Cleaner
Oxynate S
Brownells sells a product called Oxynate S (pn 082-029-016) which is used to remove copper from bluing tanks. It can be used straight or mixed into a bore cleaner, say about 5%, to remove copper bore fouling.



http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/892401.htm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISB3o2qLvd4

[seaboltm]

I like the foaming copper removers that spray in the barrel from the breech. Very effective. There are several brands, they all work the same. I have used Sweet's, and it works to, but is more work in my opinion than the foams. Foams spray in, walk away, swab in about 20 minutes, reapply. I put the rifle on an incline so the foam drips out the end of the barrel and not into the action. Initially the foam will drip out bright blue. After a couple of applications, the foam comes out clear. Even on the most hard core fouling I have never had to use more than 4 applications of foam.

[country gent]

For years I ysed a mixture of Kroil oil and shooters choice for jacket and carbon fouling worked very good. The kroil oil is a penetrant and carries the shooters choice into all the crevices between copper fouling and barrel. Sweets works good but follow direction and dont mix with any other solvents. That barrel sounds like a cantidate for breaking in. fire one round and clean 5 times. Clean if fouling is still present repeat. when no fouling shows ( Blue green color on patches) go to 2 rounds and clean 5 times. clean and check for fouling. If present repeat, if not go to 3 shot groups when no fouling is present 5 rounds then 10 rounds. This breaks the barrel in smoothing it with the jackets and seasoning it. Fire lapping speeds this up but I have seen throats extended from it also.

[462]

Sweet's 7.62 or Montana X-treme Copper Killer. Sweet's is thicker, while Montana X-treme has a higher percentage of ammonia. Follow the directions. With either, a lack of proper ventilation will be quickly noticed.

[9w1911]

I wish it was my rifle!!!!!!! This guy has way nicer stuff than me also its just one gold streak not the entire bore one long copper streak

And thanks guys

[LAGS]

Soak the bore with industriaal strength Ammonia, and then clean and oil it real good.
Ammonia Eats or disbonds Copper from steel.
But try not to let the ammonia sit overnight on your bluing..
Do NOT use ammonia on Nickle Plated guns.
The nickle plating is done over a thin layer of copper plating on the older guns.

Ammonia will also eat Zinc, and so will Vinigar.
That is why you do not soak Brass in ammonia, it eats the Zinc out of the brass and makes it brittle.

[dromia]

C2R, the best copper fouling remover bar none.

Best of all, after application you patch out with water.

[TXGunNut]

I used Sweets for years, Barnes CR10 some as well. I seldom use them anymore, Wipe Out makes it too easy, works better too. I remove any powder fouling with Hoppes and let the Wipe Out work overnight. Patch it out in the morning and apply again. Patch it out that evening and the patches almost always come out clean. I don't like scrubbing, I don't think rifle bores do either.

[kenjuudo]

As an experament, I cut 5gr. squares from .010" 110 copper sheet and dropped them in test tubes full of about every solvent I could buy or beg. Wipe-Out totally dissolved the copper sheet overnight, most of the others showed little effect even after days. CR2, Tiptons and Sweets did get the job done within three or four days.

jim

[dromia]

Did you try any C2R?

[justcharlie]

C2R is good but i think GF12 is better
just my .2

[dromia]

Where in the US did you get your C2R?

[zomby woof]

Kg-12

[Larry Gibson]

I used Sweets 7.62 for decades, it works. I have used Barnes CR10, it works. Then I picked up a bottle of Montana Extreme Copper Killer, 50bmg special formula, it works mo better than the other two. Once you get a clean patch/no blue, scrub the barrel with JB's bore paste, couple treatments like that and you should find you extreme fouling problem all but gone.

+1. Won't be any short cuts to getting it clean. Once clean then use JBs. If that doesn't solve the problem then fire lapping using a correct method is recommended (only needed in extreme cases).

Larry Gibson

[Herb in Pa]

Talk to Cooper before playing mad scientist............

[9w1911]

Agreed. I've told him to send it back.

[Clay M]

Best stuff I have used to date is Bore Tech Eliminator .It is non toxic, and has no strong odor. It is amazing stuff.
I also use Remington Bore Cleaner on very stubborn copper fouling. It has a very mild abrasive. Seems to be milder than JB.

[John Boy]

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?ei=UTF-8&type=avastbcl&hspart=avast&hsimp=yhs-001&p=how+to+remove+copper+from+rifle+bore

[zomby woof]

Check out these results

http://www.jarheadtop.com/KG12_Test_Results.htm

[Ken77539]

I'm a fan of the Sweets 7.62 also. I've got a Marlin 336 30-30 I bought back when I was just a young buck that I religiously cleaned after every outing. About 40 years later I read about Sweets and decided to give it a try. It was like I had never cleaned the gun in it's life! I'm sold on it.

[katch1]

Was barrel broke in like coopers owners manual tells ya?