First reload + first boolits combined - last questions before I hit go!

[OnceFired]

I've cast my 2nd set of boolits, after mostly tossing the results of my 1st back into the pot.

I've taken time to weigh and sort the whole lot of boolits, gotten advice here regarding the weight variances, and I'm now ready to load them up and test them out at the range.

This will technically be my first reload + my first boolit batch combined!! I've been super methodical and meticulous as I've learned (thanks to this community, a few books plus YouTube!) and I am ready to take the plunge.

I've prepped 100 cases for my first 9mm boolits - they are cleaned, deprimed, sized, re-primed & mouths have been lightly flared. I'm starting with my 128-129gr boolits. They are now ready for powder & seating. I've got the powder measure turning out 5.1-5.3gr loads, but I am having what I think is a minor problem with consistency. Is that spread normal? I am thinking I want to adjust that down to 4.8-5.0gr according to my Hornady load book. I am basing this off of the 124gr projectiles I found in the manual. And it seems I should be consistently getting 0.1gr accuracy, right? My handle sticks a tiny bit in the middle of the swing, so I am guessing I need to break it in a bit more.

This is what I am using:
RCBS Powder Measure
RCBS Hand Priming Tool
CH single stage press
Lee dies
Digital scale
Digital caliper

And for components:
Power Pistol powder
Remington No 1 1/2 small pistol primers
Winchester brass (I even went through and sorted by headstamp)
Boolits by Me, Myself & I incorporated!

If this works to my plinking satisfaction, I've got several pounds of powder, many thousand primers, and brass coming out of my ears just itching to be assembled. :) Once I can safely call this a success, rifle reloading will be what I learn next.

OF

[Yodogsandman]

When you set up your powder measure for such small charges, it helps to drop and weigh 10 charges in your pan at a time. So, if the charge you want is 4.8gr, dump 10 (ten) charges into your pan to weigh 48.0gr. That way it's an average of 10 charges. Set your powder measure for this. For charges of say 15.0gr, just multiply 5 times. so, dump 5 charges that weigh 75.0gr. That would be the average weight of 5 charges.

You'll also get more consistent charge to charge variation by rapping the handle at the top of the up stroke and on the bottom of the down stroke of travel. Some of that sticking in the middle is caused by changing the powder measure settings. Also, when you change the setting, drop a few charges and dump them back in the hopper. Then weigh your charges. It allows any stuck granules to clear the drum scraper, preventing that stickiness. At least that helps my variations with the RCBS measure...your mileage may very.

Good luck shooting them up! Seems like you're well on your way to obsession.

[Animal]

When you set up your powder measure for such small charges, it helps to drop and weigh 10 charges in your pan at a time. So, if the charge you want is 4.8gr, dump 10 (ten) charges into your pan to weigh 48.0gr. That way it's an average of 10 charges. Set your powder measure for this. For charges of say 15.0gr, just multiply 5 times. so, dump 5 charges that weigh 75.0gr. That would be the average weight of 5 charges.



This is good advice. I've done this a few times out of curiosity, but I never considered incorporating it into my routine. I've never worked with power pistol, but if it is anything like Red Dot, I'd recommend keeping a dipper handy to trickle the powder, or buying a powder tickler.

Enjoy, and good luck!

[petroid]

Power pistol has worked fine for me from my ppm. I am in the habit of always tapping the body of the measure three times after each drop to make sure nothing is hung up

[Mk42gunner]

I have never used Power Pistol or a digital scale, but a .2 grain variance seems a bit on the large size to me.

Since this is your first time loading, why don't you weigh each charge? It really won't take all that long and will give you better peace of mind.

Just a suggestion,

Robert

[OnceFired]

I am in the process of running a full pound of powder through my measure quickly. I had read & watched videos that recommended doing so to make sure the whole works were coated and slippery. And, I was already doing 5 charges in the pan at a time and weighing that, so I'm heading down that road. I do plan on weighing each case until I get strong long term consistency, and then I'll still do random checks.

But that's the crux of why I was asking - it seems that 0.2 is a lot to vary. I'll try the bumping method and see if that evens me out.

OF

[petroid]

I am in the process of running a full pound of powder through my measure quickly. I had read & watched videos that recommended doing so to make sure the whole works were coated and slippery. And, I was already doing 5 charges in the pan at a time and weighing that, so I'm heading down that road. I do plan on weighing each case until I get strong long term consistency, and then I'll still do random checks.

But that's the crux of why I was asking - it seems that 0.2 is a lot to vary. I'll try the bumping method and see if that evens me out.

OF

You're on the right track. You do need to run some powder through first to get everything coated with graphite. I think stick rifle powders work best for this but your power pistol should do ok. I noticed a lot of variation in my drops until I got the hang of it. Some powders meter better than others and you will find this out as you go. Very fine ball powders tend to leak past my PPM and get caught in the assembly. H110 comes to mind. Power Pistol seemed to work fine as did CFE Pistol and Power Pro Varmint, 2400, H322, Win748, H335. Varget and IMR 4895 didn't meter consistently. Depending on the application I would weigh each charge or charge a lot of cases and inspect the powder level.

[MT Chambers]

I'd be alot more concerned about consistent powder charges than weighing bullets for a pistol, I would only weigh bullets for super accurate MOA rifles.

[Handloader109]

I will concur with the above. From my perspective as relatively new reloader/caster, and for 9mm, I have never weighed my cast bullets. My cheap Lee powder measure drops most of my powder pretty close. I have weighted loads and they are closer than you .2gr. I tap a couple of times with each movement of my measure. this both drops all powder and fills the cylinder. Try this and see what you get

[OnceFired]

I have now completed 95% of the first pass of reloading.

100 boolits @ 5.0-5.1gr of Power Pistol, seated in the brass. I say 95% because I did have a few cartridges whose projectiles were still a bit loose - maybe 10% or a little less out of the 100, which have a big of wiggle or will rotate but not move along the brass case linearly. I am thinking I need to get a factory crimp die to properly secure these, as I may have over-flared a few at the beginning. I tried to strike a balance between the initial sizing & the flaring, but a couple of them I ended up shaving a tiny sliver of lead from the boolit. So I pulled those using an impact puller (that HAS to be my least fun thing!) and tried to resize them with the powder out. But, I got less than stellar results. The other 90ish appear ready for chamber test.

Suggestions?

[JeffG]

I use the Lyman M die and that takes care of the shaving of lead on seating, and expands the case just enough I can get the bullet started snug in the mouth of the case. You might consider a Taper Crimp die instead of a Factory Crimp die. I'm not sure what size your bullets are (what size are they anyway?) but if they are on the big side the Factory Crimp die can swage it down, since it's really intended for use with jacketed bullets and not cast. I personally didn't have issue with that but others have. When in doubt, seat some in sized brass, do the crimp then pull them and mic them. If you are using Lee dies, they have both type dies.

Have you slugged the throat to see what size bullet it needs? If not, you will probaby find it needs to be around .357 to .358. The throat on mine was .356 and I size my Lee 356-120-TC bullets to .357. As a result, there are no loose bullets after seating them, particularly not after a light taper crimp.

[Minerat]

Try weighing a couple of grains of your powder and I think you will be surprised how few it takes to make 0.1 gr. I read some where that a 0.1+/- gr, difference will make little difference unless you are working near maximum loads or trying for super accurate loads. I have been messing with reloading for 40+ years and don't weight each pistol load. I weight the first 10 to get the average and then 10 more when adding powder. I also tend to stay a minimum of 1 grain from max load as a safety factor in pistol. I will weigh ever 10th one just to make sure I'm still close but once the progressive gets going I'll stop every fifty and check. I have a 1970's vintage RCBS with the mic (large Diameter hopper) that will stay in the +/- noted above.

Most 9mm dies use a taper crimp since the case head spaces on the front of the case. You should be able to bell the mouth enough to stop the shaving and still get a good crimp if the seating die is properly adjusted. The finished cartridge will look like there is a ridge where the bullet ends in the case, i.e. the case is narrower below the boolet. That use to bug the H out of me but I got over it and just shoot them. They may not be perfect like factory but they work.

Enjoy the hobby, and remember your saving money!

[OnceFired]

Oh, and here's a photo.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3868/14973085981_5a3400704f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oP7YNR)9mm cast lead reloaded ammo (https://flic.kr/p/oP7YNR) by OnceFiredLakeCityBrass (https://www.flickr.com/people/93660723@N05/), on Flickr

I'll look into the taper crimp. I seated the boolits so they were just above the last lube groove. I need to measure them for COL but I figured I'd do that after crimping.

And note to self - remember to check the little things when making a purchase. Like the fact that RCBS loading tray only has 80 holes, instead of 50 or 100. I was very meticulous with everything else, and neglected to be on a cheapie tray. hahahahah

[Mk42gunner]

Your Lee seating die probably has a taper crimp included. To use, you screw out the bullet seating stem then adjust the body of the die down a little at a time.

If you look closely at the RCBS tray you will find it actually has two sets of 40 holes, of different diameters. I have come to the conclusion that it was originally designed for use with rifles, 40 being two boxes of twenty rounds.

Robert

[Yodogsandman]

Those 10 or so loose cases can be dumped, primers shot off and then resized as normal for reuse.

I use the RCBS case holder just for small batches of rifle cartridges. I use MTM case blocks for pistol cartridges or large rifle batches. You can make case blocks pretty easily from wood for your individual needs.

[OnceFired]

Tonight I attempted to use the seater/crimp die. As suspected, I *do* have the die I need, I just wasn't using it quite right.

I got the bullet depth to be fairly consistent, but then my crimps are off. If I get the crimp right, I don't seem to get the depth correct. I know I have to zero in on one at a time, but I'm not getting it. I'll have another session tomorrow to get the first batch done.

Would be really nice to have hands-on training on this kind of thing. But I'm learning from video & text. :)

OF

[1johnlb]

If your using the lee seat/crimp more commonly roll crimp die ,all your brass must be trimmed to the same length or you'll have some that may not crimp or some over crimped. I use the lee factory crimp on my 45 acp it crimps regardless of length an resizes the entire round on extraction for perfect cycling through my 1911 everytime. I don't even size my projectile anymore,this die does it in the case.

[OnceFired]

Not happy with my results.

Have a look.

I continued trying to set my seating/crimping die, and got what I believe are tremendously poor results.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3912/15086375111_c9966a1f4b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oZ8BHH)cast-bullet-reload-rejects (https://flic.kr/p/oZ8BHH) by OnceFiredLakeCityBrass (https://www.flickr.com/people/93660723@N05/), on Flickr

and the same cartridges nose down...look closely and you'll see height variances

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5567/14902828247_fe476b5f9a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oGUTCB)cast-bullet-reload-rejects-2 (https://flic.kr/p/oGUTCB) by OnceFiredLakeCityBrass (https://www.flickr.com/people/93660723@N05/), on Flickr

I am not seeming to get the right combination of seating depth + right amount of crimp on the rounds.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3850/15089026712_fbd8e88149_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oZncWY)rcbs-9mm-carbide-die-set (https://flic.kr/p/oZncWY) by OnceFiredLakeCityBrass (https://www.flickr.com/people/93660723@N05/), on Flickr

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5571/14902740690_bf6b037c39_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oGUrB1)die-set (https://flic.kr/p/oGUrB1) by OnceFiredLakeCityBrass (https://www.flickr.com/people/93660723@N05/), on Flickr

I am using an RCBS 3-die TC 9mm set. The 4th die is my cast bullet sizing die, by the way.

[OnceFired]

And here are the eight rounds that I really didn't like...

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3882/14902778649_d2150f7468_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oGUCTt)need-to-pull-these-for-sure (https://flic.kr/p/oGUCTt) by OnceFiredLakeCityBrass (https://www.flickr.com/people/93660723@N05/), on Flickr

They were the ones on the left of the first two photos.

[WILCO]

Long story short, you need to go back to square one and fully understand the tooling that you're working with.
Re-read all instructions and directions on your dies. Have some confidence in yourself and endeavors. The answers will come with experience.
I've found that when seating and crimping bullets, there's going to be variations. Seat the bullets at a depth so they're still in tolerance after crimping.
Don't worry about loading live ammo now, just make some dummies so you'll understand how your equipment will work.
9mm ammo is tough to start out on. You're making it worse by second guessing yourself.

[Minerat]

I have found that a stepped approach will get you better results when setting up the dies. I do this the first time with each boolit type making a dummy round and then put it in the die box for future setup. This procedure will set the die so you seat and crimp in one step.

First - get the seating depth right. To do this set the seating die high. by this I mean put a case in the shell holder and raise it to full height, then back the seating stem into the die as far as it will go and screw the die into the press until you feel it touch the case. Then back it off an 1/8 of a turn or so and tighten the locking ring. This distance is not critical only that the case not touch the taper part of the die.

Lower the case and place the boolit you want to use in it and raise into the die. Start lowering the seating stem until it touches the boolit then repeat the next steps until you reach the final length you want. Lower cartridge, measure, screw in stem, raise the cartridge and repeat. Once you get the cartridge length where you want it, it's time to set the crimp.

Second - Back the stem into the die till it bottoms on the top of the die. You want it completely out of the way so as you set the crimp it will not affect the depth of the seated boolit you did in the first step. Loosen the die locking ring and back it out of the way, raise the cartridge, screw the die down until you feel it touch the case, lower the case and screw the die in a 1/4 turn, this is your starting point . You will then repeat the following sequence until you have the crimp you are trying to achieve. To start, raise the cartridge, check the crimp, lower the cartridge, screw the die a little, and repeat. After the initial 1/4 turn in I go slow (a little at a time) until I get the get the taper I want and then set the locking ring. This will have set your taper so now it is simply a matter of screwing the boolit seating stem down to touch the nose of the boolit and locking it in place.

I then take my calipers and measure from the top of the die to the top of the locking ring and record it for future use. In most cases once you get the taper set then you only need to worry about seating depth when you change boolit styles.

A couple of notes that you may want to consider.

1. Taper crimping may have some swaging effect on cast bollits so go with just enough to lock it in. I notice that with J word bullets you can see where the base of the bullet ends.

2. Consider backing the die out of the press and then screwing it back in and check the settings. Sometimes you may have to make minor corrections.

3. Since the 9mm, 40sw, 45acp, et al, head space on the case mouth having the cartridge lengths uniform to the suggested maximum overall length is important. This is why you don't want to use a roll crimp and it will also affect the crimp from case to case. I usually worry about case length more the overall cartridge length as a variation of a couple of mm's just does not matter as long as they fit in the magazine and don't touch the rifling.

4. Sometimes seating depth can off because I do not push my press handle all the way down. I usually try to set my die heights so that when I seat the boolit, the press handle can't go down any more. This is a reminder to seat it all the way. Push to the stop and ya can't miss.

For what it's worth that's how I do it, also, I usually use a 2 step process when reloading any of the cartridges that use case mouth head spacing. This is to set the die to seat bollits first, then reset it to crimp. Yes it take more time but I seem to get better results.

[725]

Bell the mouth on the case. Use a taper crimp (adjust it slowly). You are on your way!

[Bullwolf]

Sure seems like you are making headway. Many prefer to learn by doing.

A few tips that might help.

1. Cartridge Over All Length.

This is a somewhat flexible dimension, and typically you want to stay within a minimum and maximum while finding the perfect range that functions in your gun.

Realize if you drastically shorten your cartridge OAL (Over All Length) you will increase pressures, and will also have to lighten your powder charges and rework your loads up.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114719&d=1391328588

You are looking to find a happy medium between what fits and feeds in your gun, yet still will easily pass a plunk test. If the ammo doesn't plunk, try shortening your OAL. For reference here (not necessarily the ultimate OAL, just what works for me) I find that a loaded cartridge OAL of 1.105 works quite well for me in a number of 9mm firearms with the Lee TL356-124-2R boolit.

2. Case Expansion Belling/Flaring

There is a fine line between too much case expansion and not enough. You want enough to be able to easily start your boolits without deformation, and not so much as to overwork brass and prematurely split case mouths.

3. Crimping.

If you have poor crimps, or lack enough neck tension to keep boolits from being shoved back into cases, pressure can increase quickly.

Many new loaders have crimp problems. Too little crimp can cause a sharp edge that hangs up on things and can causes jams and miss feeds. Alternatively too much crimp can distort boolits and potentially shave lead rings. I prefer to (and recommend) seating and crimping in separate stages, as you are less likely to shave lead rings from boolits while doing this. It gives one a bit more wiggle room as well while you are learning how to set things up. Yes, you can potentially seat and crimp at the same time, but it can also mess up many inexperienced re-loaders. I still will often seat and crimp in separate stages even when using boolits with a dedicated crimping groove.

Here's another ball park measurement for 9mm. (One that often works for me) I find that if you measure taper crimps, they will be somewhere in the range of .370-.380 at the case mouth. I shoot for around .369 or so depending on the brass being used. Measuring the amount of crimp applied is by no means a necessary step, but just in case you are unsure, and trying to develop a feel for what your doing I'm throwing some numbers out there for you.

Boolit Pull also depends on many factors, not just how far you screw the taper crimp die in. Case tension, case expansion, boolit size, lube and other things factor in there as well. In this case you want to simply ensure you have enough taper crimp so that your rounds will plunk and feed easily. You also want to have enough case tension that you can not shove or press a crimped boolit down to the powder charge in the case by hand. You definitely do not want your pistol to be able to do this while stripping a round to the chamber either, as shortening the cartridge OAL in 9mm can dramatically increase pressure.

If you are setting things up for the first time, try measuring or using a factory cartridge to set things up with, and to make your first dummy round off of. Which brings me to step 4.

4. Make a Dummy Cartridge.

I suggest making up a couple dummy cartridges. You can use them to check and see if your loaded rounds are going to chamber, fit in your magazine, and are likely to feed. When you get a dummy cartridge all set up to your satisfaction, you can use it as a template to craft the rest of your 9mm ammunition from.

You can also use a dummy cartridge (that fits and plunks in your gun) to help set up your dies with.

Put the dummy cartridge in your shell holder, and set your seating stem until it just touches your dummy cartridge. Measure the OAL of the dummy cartridge. Remove it and seat a fresh boolit and measure it and compare the two measurements.

You can use the dummy cartridge the same way to get a ball park idea of how to first set up your crimp die. Put your dummy cartridge in the shell holder, and screw down the taper crimp die until you start to meet resistance. Remove the dummy cartridge and taper crimp a round with that setting. Measure your dummy cartridge, and compare with the round you just crimped. Increase or decrease (try 1/8 or 1/4 turns) as you find necessary.

Another nice tool to use is a case gauge.

http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/LY7832330.jpg

Gauging all of your loaded ammo (or even your made up dummy cartridge) and comparing it with a SAAMI industry spec gauge will let you know if it will fit a SAAMI spec chamber/barrel before you ever pull the trigger.

A cheaper way, albeit a slower one is to use your pistols barrel as a gauge for all your loaded rounds. (See the plunk test image again) That way you will know they are tailored to your individual pistol as well. Eventually the purchase of a quality case gauge however can turn out to be a good investment.

Hopefully some of those tips will help. I'll close with a few of pictures of some loaded cast 9mm ammunition.


Lee TL356-124-2R 9mm OAL 1.105
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52362&d=1304661284

9mm cast boolits for my 940 J-frame revolver. Autorim & Full moon clip.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52416&d=1307078844

Box of Lyman 356402 TC 9mm OAL 1.150
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52370&d=1304738207




- Bullwolf

[OnceFired]

Thanks for the comprehensive replies. I hope to be trying again today, so I'll pore over this info before I head down that road.

[Motor]

WILCO is correct.

Setting up your die to seat and crimp in one shot is easy. First back it off so it don't crimp. Then seat a bullet to your COL. Then back off the seat plug and and adjust the die down a little at a time until your remove all of the bell mouth. If you want to go until you get a reduction of .001" to .002" in diameter at the case mouth that is ok too.

Once you get the correct crimp, lock the ring in place, screw the die in until tight against the lock ring, then screw down the seat plug until it contacts the bullet. You may still need to adjust the seat plug a little after this but your crimp setting should be good for practically ever.


Make sure you are using the seat plug that fits your bullet tip the best.


BTW: The rounds you loaded that are all over the place very likely were done with way too much crimp.

Just a note about the Lee FCD. You don't want to use a FCD with cast boolits or plated. Your RCBS die IS a taper crimp die as most are for "chamber on case mouth" calibers.

Motor

[OnceFired]

OK, I have read up on all the material here. I am doing a bit more research regarding OAL and having a hard time locating my goal length.

I have the following:

Books
Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 8th Edition
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition

Equipment
Lee TL356-124-2R 9mm 6-cav mold (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/476412/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-tl356-124-2r-9mm-luger-38-super-380-acp-356-diameter-124-grain-tumble-lube-2-ogive-radius)
RCBS Carbide 3-die set (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/757170/rcbs-carbide-3-die-set-with-taper-crimp-9mm-luger)

Components
Winchester brass (range pickup, all originally had gold colored primers not silver)
Power Pistol (targeting 5.0 to 5.1gr)
Projectiles are averaging 128gr
Remington No 1 ½ pistol primers

Summary
Neither book covers 124gr RN. The closest I get is RCBS 9mm 124gr CN, which lists 5.0 suggested starting grains, with 1.050” OAL.

As I have outlined, my OAL is currently all over the place. I’m trying to determine what to zero in on.

These OAL range I have seen so far is 1.04x+ to 1.150”

1.110 to 1.130 are the most common by far. Those look right, with no lube grooves showing but they do have a tiny bit of shoulder present above the case mouth.

What should I be aiming for?

OF

[Motor]

OF,
I use the Lee .356 TL / TC at 1.050" oal. Looking at the 2 side by side on Lee's web site would lead me to believe that the 2R oal would have to be longer. I think your 1.110 to 1.130 oal is in the ballpark.

OAL with cast bullets is not an exact science. You say a little of the shoulder is still visible. That sounds correct but some barrel / chamber combinations my not accept that. If the round loaded that way passes the "blunk" test in your barrel and then works fine in actual firing then you are good to go.

Again, make sure you use the seat plug that works best with your bullet tip profile. You actually want the bullet contacting the seat plug on the diameter of the tip not on the tip itself. Tips are too prone to flatten and this will make your oal be all over the place too.

It sounds like you are almost there. Keep at it.

Motor

[funnyjim014]

Also if your sized boolits have excessive lube on them it can buildup in the seating die causing a deeper seating depth as it builds up

[Stoats]

I never seat and crimp in one action with lead. J's yes.

[Motor]

I never seat and crimp in one action with lead. J's yes.

If you are loading on a progressive press I would not either if you are loading on a single stage press I have to ask why not ?? At least why not for taper crimp ammo ?

This so called crimp thing on semi auto ammo is not really even a crimp. You are simply removing the mouth flair. Even if you choose to go a little tighter its only at the case mouth.

I believe "taper crimping" on semi auto pistol caliber ammo is the most missunderstood process in reloading. Second is roll crimping. It seems most users do not understand the mechanics of it all.

Motor

[OnceFired]

Another update.

I got consistency on the OAL now, and am not having a further problem with too poor or too strong of crimp. I'm going to lock down the die and test again.

From the prior rounds I put together...

20 @ OAL1.11-1.12
20 @OAL 1.12-1.13
All of which look good.
All but one passed the plunk test (that one went to pull pile)
Now I will see if the good ones pass the feed test.

Perhaps 6 rounds are under 1.11 and 2-3 are over 1.13. None of those passed the plunk test (they stick in the barrel, which I had out) so they will be pulled.

Another 10-12 I know I need to pull (variety of reasons) and I have another 50 that need better crimp and then I can judge length since the projectiles are too loose but otherwise look good.

More as I have time to hit the garage.

[Motor]

OF,
If you have loose boolits seated in your cases there is something very wrong. As I mentioned in my last post the "so called crimp" really does next to nothing to hold the boolit in the case. 9mms usually have a lot of neck tension and the boolit usually can eaisly be seen bulging the case wall.

No amount of "crimp" is going to fix those. You need to pull them. Stop thinking of the crimp as a functional thing on your 9mms. Its only done to remove the mouth flair and serves no other real purpose.

Motor

[OnceFired]

Motor -

I was trying to see if they'd be salvagable but that does not appear to be the case. So far, re-seating has done zip and helped them precisely diddley squat, so I've decided to shine that whole set and pull them all.

That said, the two sets of 1.110-1.120 and 1.120-1.130 OAL seem to have chambered most of the time. I think the FTL I got were user error, not a problem with the cartridges. If I let the slide go full strength, it works fine and reliably over and over, loading and ejecting manually. And I tried a whole bunch repeatedly. If it doesn't go all the way back, it will stick from time to time with a failure to load.

BTW this is on a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm.

OF

[Stoats]

I even do it in 2 steps on a single stage. Minimises damage to the boolit, completely eliminates lead rings, seems to make better ammunition.

[TCLouis]

Loose boolits

Single load, use to foul bore, or just shoot them on target for warm up.

Powder weight variations. Make sure the max the measure throws does not exceed book max.

9mm case is small and a little too much gets to be too much faster.

I use a lot of ball or sperical powders so do not expect to see any variation in powder weight.

Todays world, one shoots whatever appropriate powder one can find.

[Motor]

I even do it in 2 steps on a single stage. Minimises damage to the boolit, completely eliminates lead rings, seems to make better ammunition.

I loaded 100 cast 158s today in .357mag. Seated and crimped in one step. If you are damaging boolit or getting rings, you are not doing it correctly.

A roll crimp is made in less distance than a normal width of a canalure. While the crimp is being formed there should not be any resistance on the boolit preventing it from goin deeper in the case.

As stated before, most people do not understand the mechanics of crimping.

Motor

[Bullwolf]

Many new loaders have crimp problems. Too little crimp can cause a sharp edge that hangs up on things and can causes jams and miss feeds. Alternatively too much crimp can distort boolits and potentially shave lead rings. I prefer to (and recommend) seating and crimping in separate stages, as you are less likely to shave lead rings from boolits while doing this. It gives one a bit more wiggle room as well while you are learning how to set things up. Yes, you can potentially seat and crimp at the same time, but it can also mess up many inexperienced re-loaders. I still will often seat and crimp in separate stages even when using boolits with a dedicated crimping groove.


- Bullwolf

I often recommend seating and crimping in separate stages for those who are new to re-loading.

It can be done in one stage, and I have done it often when operating a progressive reloading machine. It's also somewhat easier to seat/crimp at once when you are using a boolit with a dedicated crimp groove.

I still find it easier to teach someone how to do it in separate stages without them messing things up too badly. I chalk this up to more hands on time, and experience. Judging by your helpful written replies you are likely not a novice at this, but the original poster seemed like he might be.

A roll crimp is not as forgiving as a taper crimp can be when using range brass of various different lengths. Learning how to set your dies up so you can can load many different head stamps brass despite all these variances is a bit of a learned art.

Crimp is an often misunderstood term. I think the key to success with cast boolits is a blend of just the right amount of case expansion (be it expander spud or powder flare funnel) and the right size boolit. Custom expander die spuds and funnels help with oddball combinations, as does using a 38 SPL ,38 Super, or even 38 S&W oversize expander die with 9mm.

We have a nice sticky thread about this very topic that's worth reading
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?253423-chambering-an-oversized-9mm-boolit-is-it-really-possible-%28-358-boolits%29

If you have a loose boolit with no neck tension, then no amount of external crimping is going to hold things in place adequately or safely in a semi auto. If you have swaged or squeezed a boolit down undersize during your loading process, throw it back in the melt pot and start over rather than trying to fix it with an excessive crimp. (it won't work well anyways)

A quick hypothetical example with 9mm could be a .356 case expander spud, and a .358 diameter boolit so you end up with around .002 of case tension.

Since the thread got posted here instead of elsewhere in the forum with access to the more relevant sticky posts - Incase the OP (Original Poster) has not yet seen it, he should also check out the... "Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm" sticky.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm


I'm mostly relating what has worked for me. I have had to teach new, and moderately experienced re-loaders how to set up both the progressives and single stage presses at work with mixed results. Fortunately most of the time only working with jacketed and rarely small amounts of commercial cast fodder. Some people are simply more mechanical than others, rarely you encounter a very quick learner, and then there are a select few who should never step near anything mechanical ever.

Many here prefer to seat and crimp separately. The topic comes up here often, as a Site search will show.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?240973-Seat-amp-Crimp-Separately
Many insist there is no benefit to doing it separate, so they always seat/crimp at the same time. I guess it's just personal preference.

My take on things after loading many many rounds commercially is that when I am hand loading for myself, I want to go at a slow relaxed pace and have it be fun. I take my time to manufacture a quality product. I don't mind taking a few extra steps, or the extra time involved loading single stage. If I want to go fast and have a large pile of blasting ammo, I would just peel some rounds off the automated presses at work and then go shoot until it's out of my system.

Someone much wiser than me once said, the best way to take the enjoyment out of doing something you like, is to go and have to do it every day for a living.

Sorry I seem to have gone and written a book again, so I'll just stop here.




- Bullwolf

[OnceFired]

I value all of the replies, as they all make me think more deliberately about each step of the process.

I have now pulled 44 bullets successfully. These were rounds where the bullet would either twist in the brass, or move a tiny bit in & out but wouldn't easily come out by hand. After pulling these, now I am familiar with strengths & weaknesses of using the impact puller, too. Most of those rounds came out by the 2nd strike with the hammer. And those 44 have been re-flared and are ready for re-prep.

I have about 10-15 that appear too short - calipers say they are anywhere just shy of 1.05" to about 1.07" OAL each. My next step is to pull those.

I have about 15 that are too tight (seated too deep + crimped) to remove them with the impact puller. I'll either dispose of those properly or at some point get a collet style puller to get those apart. For now they are clearly labelled & set aside as do not shoot.

That said, I believe I have 45 that are 1.11" to 1.13" OAL that look & feel correct. Nothing loose or twisty, and I actually have them broken into two groups: 1.11" to 1.12" and 1.12" to 1.13" so I can monitor my shooting behavior for them. I believe these are good to shoot.

I am intent upon learning the process properly. I am going very slowly, and being hyper methodical. That of course doesn't mean I don't fail - my failures are how I learn. I'm not the kind of guy to just throw them together & go shooting. I'd rather "waste" my time failing in different ways & learning repeatedly across the board and then know what I am doing, than to miss a step or do one poorly and just think "that's good enough" and blaze forward.

I'd love it if my dad were local and could just show me hands-on, but that's not possible. Long story short - I appreciate the info I am getting here.

OF

[Motor]

Bullwolf, book maybe, a good read none the less. Thanks.

Motor

[OnceFired]

@Motor...

???

hahahahha

[OnceFired]

Hey all

Just wanted to report back. I finally took those 1.110"-1.130" OAL rounds to the range tonight. I am happy to say all those hand loads went downrange smooth as silk.

Recoil was moderate and roughly normal. I shot a magazine full of Winchester white box just prior to my hand loads, and noticed very little difference between them. Wasn't looking for accuracy - just for typical operation of the pistol, which it did quite well.

I actually had one of those white box rounds sound funky when I fired it. Although operation seemed ok in general, I did get a spray of something at my face on the 3rd round. Couldn't tell if it was powder or what. Nothing hurt, just aware of "dirt" hitting my face. The RSO came over to check it out too saying it didn't sound right to him either. I thought I saw the target paper jump from that round, but wasn't 100% certain. So, I did a field tear down and made sure nothing was where it shouldn't have been. That particular case was more blackened than I usually see, but that was about it.

My son was there for his 2nd shooting session ever. This time with a 22 in AR platform, which I believe was an M&P. That was a rental from the range, and they didn't have a bolt action which I would have preferred. He shot with his regular glasses this time, and was a far better experience for him than the pistol session with safety glasses was. He showed focus, wisdom, and illustrated he does know how to listen quite well. The RSO had some advice for his shooting too, which reinforced what I was telling him. Dad-advice-itis was avoided 100%. :)

AND...I finally got to fire my AR15. I just put 10 rounds through it tonight, just to see it cycle, get accustomed to the report & feel of it, etc. I am shooting high with it, but I don't even have iron sights on it right now, either. I blame lack of practice - it's been at least 15 years since I shot a rifle with any regularity.

I got back from the range and my wife immediately asks me if I blew off any limbs using my hand loads. My son chimed in "nope, but we had a factory round malfunction of some kind." It felt good to know my stuff worked, even if the factory one in 10,000 had its rare issue. And my son was there to prove it wasn't mine. hahahahah

I can finally say I have reloaded my own ammo, pushed my own cast boolits, and fired a gun I built from parts. This site has a lot to do with all those things, and I appreciate the community here for all the advice!

Now, I have a ton of reloading to do. Talk to you guys later!

OF

[OnceFired]

As I sat down today to prepare more 9mm reloads, I wanted to completely re-create the scenario I had last week, so I was certain I could break down my equipment and re-set everything again and still get good results.

This is when I found a problem that perhaps was affecting me throughout the entire process.

The brass screw that holds the seating/crimping die lock in place is stripped. It does a very poor job of holding the die precisely in place. It moves ever so slightly with every pull of the handle. The lock itself is oriented pointed toward the back of the press, and if I had seen what it is doing NOW back then, I think I would have saved myself quite a bit of headache. Since it is pointed away from the front of the bench, I usually just reached all the way around, and tightened or loosened as I was making my adjustments.

The screw will wind in or out with some effort (since it mostly spins) but it just doesn't grip worth anything in the housing it's inside. And even when fully engaged against the die, it still allows the die to move in either direction in very minor but noticable amounts.

I'm going to contact RCBS about getting a replacement set screw or perhaps the lock ring.

OF

[Motor]

OF,
Its the little things like that which makes you a better hand loader. Once you are aware of what little things matter and how to trouble shoot them it becomes so much eaiser.

There are several reasons for your OALs to vary and it gets complicated some times so its hard to comment and give easy solid advice.

Once you get your set screw issue taken care I am betting your OALs will be a lot more consistant. Don't be surprized to see +/- .005" or even better.

BTW: That factory round you had malfunction sounds like nearly a squib. What hit you in the face was very likely unburned powder. Sometimes its burning powder so you got lucky.

Motor

[arclight]

Another thing that will affect your consistency, is that the nose of the bullet will get mashed down a little bit each time you run the seating die over it. So it might dull it down .001-.002" as you are dialing in the OAL. Then the same sort of thing will happen as you dial in the taper crimp part. So once you've created a "perfect OAL" round, backed off the seater stem, and set up the taper crimp...you'll find that all of the virgin rounds are off.

What I do is:

1. Load one round up and dial in the OAL.
2. Do 1-2 more fresh ones to make sure the OAL really is correct.
3. Dial in the taper crimp with these rounds that only went through the die once.
4. Run 2-3 virgin rounds through to make sure everything is still OK. Move the seating stem up and down to adjust. 1/10th of a turn = ~.005"

Do not re-run the seat/crimp die on already crimped rounds - start with a new case each time.

If you do it in small steps, your test rounds will still be close enough to spec that you can set them aside as plinking ammo and safely shoot them. Just don't shoot any that are really short or if you're working near max. Aside from better accuracy and less wear-and-tear on the gun, your process is a lot more forgiving on non-max loads.

Arclight

[Yodogsandman]

I had the same problem once. I called RCBS and they sent me a bunch of replacement brass set screws. They also suggested using a lead BB under the set screws for a better purchase on the die threads. I didn't have any BB's and they sent me some of them, too! What a great company!

[OnceFired]

@Yodogsandman yup that's what RCBS is doing for me, although I didn't learn about the lead BB before I had contacted them. We'll see what shows up!

[OnceFired]

I received a pack of brass screws & brass-colored inserts on Saturday. About 10-15 of the screws and even more of the little brass flat pellets. They might be lead, but they look brass. Either way, thank you RCBS!

I pulled the stripped screw (the tip of which had sheared) as well as added one of the pellets against the die, and tightened everything back down. Then I went through the steps to zero in on seating depth as well as crimp. I'm already reliably getting 1.110"-1.120" OAL's.

Halle-flipping-lujah

I think I'm finally in business.

OF