Needing help - 45LC with Gould Express 457122

[Anonym]

Ladies and gents, I recently acquired a 457122 Gould Express mold to try my hand at the 45LC for deer season. I've seen others doing it, and thought it would be the ultimate medicine for an Indiana Whitetail.

I have a Contender Carbine with a 16.25" barrel chambered in 45 Colt (not 45/410). Twist rate is 1:16. With my 50coww/50pure alloy, boolits are dropping about 340 grains (give or take a grain). I'm needing to pick the intelligent brains around here on what would be a suitable load to develop from given my current powders. I understand the velocity limitations on the boolit as well as the caliber, and am completely fine with that. I'm looking at a 100-yard maximum range here, and have used the 454424 the past couple years with success, just looking for something new to play with!

I loaded up 3 rounds, seating to the ogive, with 9.2 grains of Unique. It blasted through a 10-inch piece of seasoned maple at 50 yards and left a half-dollar hole in the back. It was my first attempt, and although the authority it showed was impressive, I've heard Unique isn't necessarily the best in this application. I'm looking for performance from the boolit with accuracy.

I currently have some IMR 4227, Blue Dot, Universal Clays, Unique, H110 that I think may have the possibility of being used, but load data is practically non-existent. Does anyone have some experience loading this boolit in this capacity that can help point me in the right direction?

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49/Anonym_photos/20140815_072238_zpsf077b94a.jpg (http://s632.photobucket.com/user/Anonym_photos/media/20140815_072238_zpsf077b94a.jpg.html)

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have used IMR 4227 in the .45 Colt revolver with very good accuracy. It seems to be easier to work with than H110 and velocities are very close. I used 20 grs 4227 with 454424 at 260 grains. Never fooled with much else as it just worked so well in my Hawes single action 5.5".

[Cowboy_Dan]

I have used those sized .459 in my oversided bore .45/.410. I used 21 gr of Win 296 (same as H110). Beware, this is a warm load (even though it is a start load), but a Contender should be up to it. Data is from Linebaugh by way of my Lee manual (Ruger/TC only loads). Hope this helps.

[Anonym]

Dan, thanks for that information. Do you have the start/end loads from your manual? I'm working out of the Lyman Cast Bullets and an old Lyman 45th Ed. manual and neither go up that high on boolit weight. My newer manual isn't boolit friendly, and I do a lot of guessing, just not something I want to do with this heavy sucker!

Justin

[skeettx]

PLEASE look these up for yourself on the Hodgdon Powder Web Site
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

45 Colt, Ruger, Freedom Arms, etc
Barrel Length: 7.25"
Case: Winchester
Primer: Winchester LP, Large Pistol
Trim Length: 1.280"
Twist: 1:16"

335 GR. CPB LFN GC
H4227
Bullet Diameter .452"
C.O.L. 1.680"
Starting Load Grains 20.0 Velocity (ft/s) 1,011 Pressure 21,100 CUP
Maximum Load Grains 22.5C Velocity (ft/s) 1,155 Pressure 28,300 CUP

335 GR. CPB LFN GC
H110
Bullet Diameter .452"
C.O.L. 1.680"
Starting Load Grains 20.5 Velocity (ft/s) 1,109 Pressure 19,200 CUP
Maximum Load Grains 23.5 Velocity (ft/s) 1,240 Pressure 28,000 CUP

335 GR. CPB LFN GC
Lil'Gun
Bullet Diameter .452"
C.O.L. 1.680"
Starting Load Grains 17.0 Velocity (ft/s) 1,052 Pressure 20,100 CUP
Maximum Load Grains 20.0 Velocity (ft/s) 1,206 Pressure 29,600 CUP

[rking22]

I have hunted with that 296 load in a 24 inch low wall. After 2 deer with it , I have decided it is a bit much for the HP boolit in my alloy. VERY destructive, that bullet was designed for 1350 to 1400 fps in soft alloy. I do not remember the load now, but I reduced it to that velocity range. Have not hunted with it since that change ,so no feed back as yet. I load mine at .458 as my chamber is "generous" to say the least. I can slide a .458 bullet into the case fired in this rifle!
My alloy is basically 16 to 1 ,so softer than yours. YOu will find the recoil in a TC carbine , brisk , I suspect :)

[Anonym]

So are any powders more favorable for this length of barrel? Not quite a rifle but more than a pistol. Is there a rule of thumb on how much additional velocity I'll get with the added barrel length? That might help me get to the desired velocity range.

[rking22]

Note the data from Skeettx , 296/H110 ,lil gun are the most often indicated powders and they will both give more velocity than you will need at resonable pressure. If memory serves I was seeing 1600+ at the 21 gr level of W296 from my 24 in barrel. Brass slid free of the chamber and the loads were accurate. Problem was that it was too destructive for my tastes. There is a good bit of "conversation" about this bullet in 45LC leverguns on the net, some give velocities. I would start at the low end of the range indicated by the hodgdon data site and see what you think. Remember the OAL is with a different bullet than the data. That bullet is plenty at pistol velocity!

[leftiye]

Take a look at AA 300 MP. It's like Lil gin, only a bit slower than 110/296. Look at seeing if you can seat out further (I noticed you have that whole big boolit inside the case as if for a revolter If you can get an extra 1/8", then If so, 1680 and VV110 (I think) may give higher velocities with lower pressures.

[Anonym]

Thanks leftiye. Yes, I can definitely seat out further with my single shot. I was just trying to stick with what little information was available that I could find and use that as a starting point.

Biggest problem I have right now is finding suitable powders at a "reasonable" price. Most shelves are still bare or with very limited selection typically in the magnum rifle powders. When you find something that looks like it might be worth picking up for the calibers I load, the prices are in the $35-$40/lb range. I'd rather work with what I have than to perpetuate the demands and higher prices we've been seeing.

Need to do some browsing on Leverguns and see what they've been talking about...

Thanks for the continued information, and please keep it coming!
Justin

[Nrut]

Of the powders you list I would start with IMR 4227 at the low end of Hodgdons Ruger data and work up looking for accuracy first and foremost..
Then try H110 doing the same as above..
For alloy I would start with 50/50 WD with 1.50% tin..
Then same alloy AC..
The other powders should work well also at lower velocities if you can find loading data using them under heavy bullets..

Wondering, do you have 4198 or Rl-7?
If so check out Glenn Fryxell's article using the same bullet out of his 10" Contender..
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1GGGE_enCA399CA401&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=something+old,+something+new,+something+borrow ed+Glen+Fryxell&spell=1

[Anonym]

I agree. I think I'm going to see about working up a good 4227 load and see what happens. I do not have any of the two recommended powders from Mr. Fryxell's article, or I might head that direction first.

I'll have to see what sort of seating depth I can get away with in my contender. I'd say just covering the 2nd lube groove would be sufficient, and adjust as necessary according to the throat.

Justin

[Anonym]

Hmm, looked at a burn rate chart and noticed Benchmark falls close to the 3 powders Fryxell recommended for best accuracy. Anyone think it's worthwhile to explore this powder too?

[rking22]

there's another thread here on this boolit/cartridge combo, Ben posted as outstanding target with AA#9

[Anonym]

Digging up an old post, but have been playing with this combination some lately and have been very disappointed in my accuracy.

I've loaded with H110 at 20 grains, 20.5 grains, and 22 grains. I've sized it to match the bore at 0.454, and left as-cast at 0.459. I've seated over the 3rd driving band and over the 4th (coal = 1.690).

I'm getting some very lousy accuracy in the 6" range shooting 50 yards off the bench. They shoot excellent from my Encore muzzleloader sizing to 0.452 with a Harvester sabot.

Any thoughts on this? Getting frustrated.

[Irascible]

Try different primers with H110/296 and MP3000 I find Mag primers work best, you may find different. Are you crimping those Gould bullets? Bullet pull is also essential for proper powder burn.

[Nrut]

Have you made a chamber impact slug?
If so can you post a picture of it?

[44man]

I think the soft HP is going to leave you with a huge mess and much ruined meat.

[Anonym]

Been meaning to update everyone, but hadn't yet. I did shoot this very boolit, in a sabot, out of my 50 Caliber Encore and took a nice buck last Saturday evening. I'm still studying the carcass, but I haven't found the slug or a noticeable exit wound. It performed great though, dropping the deer in his tracks and expiring a very short time afterwards. There doesn't seem to be much meat loss, but I won't be finishing the processing until tomorrow morning.

I'm not giving up on the 45LC yet either! I was wanting to seat the boolit out to just "kiss" the lands and see if that affected the accuracy, but to do so, I was barely covering the bottom lube groove and was concerned about shooting it with insufficient lube. Well, I think I solved the issue by trying my first paper-patched rounds (x2) last night. Going to try shooting them this weekend to see if this shows any promise. If so, I'll be playing more with the concept to iron out my load!

Justin

[TMenezes]

I like this heavy 45LC load your working up, but it looks way heavy for a thin skinned light boned animal like a deer. John Linebaugh says he, his wife, and his sons use a 260gr Keith style solid for deer and antelope loaded with 8gr HP38/Win 231 for 850fps or 13gr HS6 for 950fps. He mentions the same 260 Keith can be boosted up to 1200fps with H110 (or any other magnum powder, I use AA#9 but want to try H4227/IMR4227 for this) for flatter shooting if you need the range. He also said the deer didn't seem to die any faster with the hotter load but there was more meat destroyed. I can find the link to his article if you like, think I still have it on my phone. It was on Handloads.com I believe. Just read it 2 days ago.

[FlatTop45LC]

I like this heavy 45LC load your working up, but it looks way heavy for a thin skinned light boned animal like a deer. John Linebaugh says he, his wife, and his sons use a 260gr Keith style solid for deer and antelope loaded with 8gr HP38/Win 231 for 850fps or 13gr HS6 for 950fps. He mentions the same 260 Keith can be boosted up to 1200fps with H110 (or any other magnum powder, I use AA#9 but want to try H4227/IMR4227 for this) for flatter shooting if you need the range. He also said the deer didn't seem to die any faster with the hotter load but there was more meat destroyed. I can find the link to his article if you like, think I still have it on my phone. It was on Handloads.com I believe. Just read it 2 days ago.
I would like that link!

[Anonym]

Yea, please post the link. It may be overkill, but as long as I'm not damaging the meat, I like to make the kill as quickly as possible...

[skeettx]

http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=12
[/URL]

[TMenezes]

I've read that article too but that one is much more into the very high powered loads which isn't really my thing. I like this one better as it discusses the S&W model 25 which is my favorite and mid level loads.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=12

[FlatTop45LC]

That handloads.com article just convinced me to buy a 4 inch M25 to add into my working gun collection/rotation.

[DougGuy]

M25 will not live long with Ruger Only loads, it will be fine with warmed over std .45 Colt loads.

Of the powders you listed OP, your best load will be with H110, and it DOES matter how deep you seat them, you should be able to cross over this Gould boolit with another heavyweight boolit's COA and see if the bottom of the boolit is anywhere close when both are seated. If they are, and the weights are similar, the load will cross over.

I shoot a 340gr SSK TC boolit over 22.0gr of W296 (same exact powder as H110, made in the same plant even...) and I get right at 1,000fps out of a short barreled Vaquero so your TC barrel would definitely handle the pressure, and you'd maybe be close to 1200 - 1250 in velocity. With 50/50 there is NO need for a HP at all. Penetration is first order of the day, expansion is secondary. As with any caliber and velocity, shot placement is KEY.

I would load that Gould that you have there over 21.5gr H110 and let it rock.

[Dinny]

Do you have access to any 2400? I use 16.5gr with the 335gr CP boolit for about 1300fps from my 20" Handi rifle.

Thanks, Dinny

[Anonym]

No I don't Dinny. I haven't played with it much since deer season is in. Didn't get the results I was after with my paper patching either. Just need to play around with it some more. I've still got the 454424 that shoots well if I don't want to fuss with the Gould...

Justin

[Dinny]

I'll be in New Albany this weekend. I could trade ya a little for a few of those Goulds.

Thanks, Dinny

[Anonym]

Sending you a PM!

[taco650]

No experience with the mold you mention but my experience with heavy for caliber boolits in my 44mag revolvers is they need to be driven fast to be accurate. I've been working with the Lee 310gr FPGC & had no luck getting an accurate, moderate velocity load. When I finally bumped it up to magnum levels (still within loading manual ranges), things got better. Obviously I'm dealing with a different caliber and gun so my experience may not give you any insight for improvements.

[clearcut]

it just may be me but the OP's pic looks like the case still is flared out could rase isues.???
CC

[Dinny]

it just may be me but the OP's pic looks like the case still is flared out could rase isues.???
CC

Now that you mention it, I see it too. I doubt it would seat right if the case was flared too much, but that would definitely depend on the chamber. One cut with a SAAMI pistol reamer may be a bit longer than one cut with a rifle reamer. The throat would likely be different too. I can almost close my 45LC H&R action on 454 Casull brass.

I looked through my stash of boolits last night and found a mess of these Lyman Goulds. I sized them down to .454' and will give them try myself.

Thanks, Dinny

[Anonym]

Case flare was removed, but boolit was not crimped. Being a single-shot, didn't think it was necessary...

[GaryN]

I would look at H110 myself also. That is my favorite powder with the 44 mag. I have a friend who likes it in the 45 LC. Just stay away from the really light loads. I have never tried a load without a crimp. It changes the way they burn the powder without a crimp.The amount of crimp can even make a difference. That may be your problem.

[taco650]

Case flare was removed, but boolit was not crimped. Being a single-shot, didn't think it was necessary...

Is there a crimp groove on that boolit? Also, I think that crimping gives better or more complete burn of the powder, especially if you're using a slow burner like H-110/296. My 44 mag revolvers like H-110 too.

[Anonym]

No, just crimp over the ogive or use a lube groove. I was playing with oal to see if I could improve the accuracy.

I broke down and bought the NOE hollow point version of the 45 - 270 - SAA to replace this mold. Figured this one was overkill for what I needed anyway, and should have more flexibility with the new one. It's up for sale in S&S if anyone is interested.

[Dinny]

I shot my 45LC Handi rifle yesterday with the 330gr Gould, 260gr 45-270-SAA-HP, and a 280gr 45-270-SAA. All were BBDTPC and sized to 454".

From left to right:

45-270-SAA, 280gr, 22gr H110
Lyman Gould, 330gr, 21.5gr H110
Lyman Gould, 330gr, 16.5gr A2400

All groups are 5 shots @ 50yds.

124454

The 260gr 45-270-SAA-HP shot this with 18.0gr of A2400

124455

Good luck with your new mold, I think it will work well for you.

Thanks, Dinny

[CPL Lou]

Nice shootin' !

CPL Lou

[Dinny]

Nice shootin' !

CPL Lou

Thanks, I hope Anonym is able to find a good load for his rifle.

Thanks, Dinny

[selpaw]

I have had good luck with the 457122 sized to 453 for my 45LC. 30-1 lead tin alloy. Works great as a ML bullet in a 50 sabot. I have a set of dies to make gaschecks for the bullet from aluminum printing plates. selpaw