Bore diameter on Browning 1885 Creedmore

[winshooter]

I have a Browning 1885 Creedmoor with the Badger barrel and I want to cast bullets using smokeless powder. Without slugging the bore, can someone tell me what I should size my bullets to for maximum accuracy? I'll be using both Lyman 457677 (490 gr taper) and 457132 (535 gr Postell).

Thanks,
Mike

[Bullshop]

The Badger barrels on the Browning rifles are fairly consistant at .458" to .4585" groove diameter.
I size to .459" for mine.
BIC/BS

[Guido4198]

.459 is a good place to start and seems to be where I ended up for my Badger bbl. too. Looking back through my records I find that I also got good results hand-lubing some bullets and shooting them "as-cast".. You might give that a try sometime if you're feeling experimental....

[Don McDowell]

Hopefully that postell mold will drop the bulles at .460 or so. That's where I'ld startt and if your molds won't do that for you hope that .459 is going to work.
Not sure about how the chamber is cut in your rifle, but on my CSA rifle it prefers cast bullets quite abit off of the lands. Seat the postell to the driving band has worked well for me.

[McLintock]

I slugged my BPCR at .459, and have seen where a few others have slugged theirs at .459, but most seem to be .458 as Badger states they are. I had Steve Brooks make a mould that throws at .460, and I shoot them at that diameter. It shoots very well, so long as I do my part. Start with .459's and if it shoots good, use that diameter, unless you want to experiment with .460's; it might just shoot even better. You won't know unless you try it.
McLintock

[45 2.1]

Can someone tell me what I should size my bullets to for maximum accuracy? Mike

0.462" with a very soft 40:1 to 50:1 alloy and SR4759. It's quite possible to get 1" or slightly smaller groups with that rifle at 200 yds.

[winshooter]

Thanks everyone for your response. I'll start with the "as cast" then size to .459 and then go to .460. This should keep me out of the bars and out from underfoot for awhile.

Mike

[brshooter]

I have 10 Stainless Steel Badger barrels on my Gatling Gun and was curious as to bore dia. all so. So I slugged them and 0.458" right on the money. Great barrels by the way.

[Nueces]

OK, now, if yer gonna roll a grenade in the room like that, the polite thing to do is pull the pin. Pics, video, plans, history! It is your duty, Sir!

Mark!

[brshooter]

I don't have a video camera nor a digital one. My daughter has one but is away at college and won't be back until spring. When she gets home I will conn her in to taking some pictures for here.
History:Five years ago got into a agreement with Bud Welsh "Bud Welsh Custom Gunsmithing or High Precision". I was to buy the prints, castings, barrels and steel to make two full size Gatling guns. I spent more than $14.000 on the stuff. Bud assembled a gun for me and I picked it up in May of 2007, hate to say it but Bud Welsh is not much of a machinst. The gun was a sorry piece of $##%. It would only fire on 4 barrels and the internal parts were machined so badly they had to be scrapped. The pitch dia. of the barrels and the pitch dia. of the cartridge carrier and the bolt carrier were off by 3/8", the frame was warped so bad that it made turning the handle difficult. The barrels were made by Badger and were completely finished except for crowning, chambering and threading to fit the barrel ring. He even managed to cut the threads and shoulders off by as much as 3 degrees. Remember now he is supposed to be a "Benchrest Gunsmith". The barrel ring has 10 threaded holes spaced 36 degrees apart, not rocket science, but he screwed that up too, they vary by as much as 5 degrees. A real machinist redid the entire gun, blueprinted the barrel ring, had the cartridge carrier and bolt carrier EDM'd to match the barrel ring, rebuild the frame, had a new cam box for the original one was machined so bad it had to scrapped. Rebuild the operating handle so it would stay on while firing the gun. Reprofiled all the bolts so that they work properly, installed a Murphy Switch (Safety) and fixed the feed hopper properly. Material and EDM costs came to $ 2,800 plus labor costs that I'm not going to say how much, but it was over 200 hours. It works like a dream now, and am I happy. Asked Bud Welsh why he made such a mess of it, his reply, you did not pay any money to get it made, and I'm not going to pay for any repairs and he hung up on me. He recieved over $7000 woth of parts free for his work and he felt I should be happy with what he made as I didn't pay any more money. Strange fellow, and one I hope I never see again.

[Nueces]

Thanks for the report. Glad to hear yours works now, sorry about the misery. I guarantee mucho interest here in eventual photos. What chambering did you go with?

Mark

[brshooter]

It is a 45-70 half breed,Model of 1876 castings are from original Colt patterns scrounged up from Bannerman's Island. Then used a 1886 feed hooper casting, Murphy Switch (safety) from a Model of 1883, Bruce Feed from a Model of 1884, Colt Medallion from a Model of 1874. It is a shooter, not a collector's item. All the modifications are improvements from later Models to enhance the relialibity. Right now it will spit out 40 rounds (full magizine) in 3 seconds. Right now in process of loading the last 2000 of the 4500 cases I have for it. I was going to use the Dillon 650, but decided against it. So I load 50 rounds at a time on a single stage press. I'm anal about insuring there is powder in each case. A bullet hung up in the bore and sending another behind it will wreck the gun, hence the single stage press. The dillon is good but I have too much invested to trust it.
I live in northern NY right on the St. Lawrence River and it is too damn cold to even think of taking it out.

[crossfireoops]

I've got a fair sized pile of muzzle crops offa' .450 / .4585 Badgers lurking out in the coop.

I oughta' impact slug 'em, and come up with bore groove tolerance / variance.....they are hand lapped, ....so they WILL vary.....that's just nature of beast. I'm thinkin' .0003 / .0004 MAX.

Can tell you that they are a dream to work up, and that only variance will be due to different hand lappers, phase of the moon sorta' stuff......

Broached Badgers run almost amazingly "Hold Print"....year to year, ..barrel to barrel. Nice machinability, too

My Jones and Leeth molds drop .4592 / .4595"......I luber-size 'em in a .460 Saeco die....., with no "Scuffing" evident on driving bands, and got NO complaints,..........from 40 to 1 down to 25 to 1 alloy,.....they've always delivered the goods.

Luck, and good shooting ( whenever it warms enuf' to go shoot well).

GTC

.459 / .460 dittos

[Nueces]

Thanks, brshooter. I see you edited your first post, which is why I asked about chambering. And now I'm even more interested in photos/video.

Bannermans! I got their cats as a kid interested in antiques and I've seen the castle island from the air. What a grand old name and history. Thanks for sharing your gatling.

Mark

[brshooter]

Bannerman's Island was deeded to the state of New York after the big fire ruined the warehouses and main castle. NY State put it off limits to anyone for years because of the danger of unexploded ordance lying around and the Hudson River current there is treachous. The guy who owned Navy Arms spent some time sneaking over to the island and salvaging any thing he could find. Bannerman bought all the Gatling Guns that the US Goverment decided they were no longer needed as the Browning was lighter and faster. Colt made a few more for foreign countries and then sold all the prints, patterns for the castings to Bannerman. The guy from Navy arms found them among the ruins, reconized what they were and took them among many other things off the island. They were sold several times to different people all over the country. Finally a group of guys bought all that was left and started selling castings. The guy that has them is Wilbur Williams in Wallace, Kansas. He makes and sells one gun a year. The castings are for a short barreled gun. all so know as the "Camel Gun" He all so sells a set of prints for a 30-06 full size Gatling Gun. The prints are next to worthless but are better than nothing. He has other prints but will not get copies of them and they are rotting away for they are drawn on linen. I got in touch with a couple of other guys that make guns for sale and without thier help I would not ave a gun. One guy even sent Bud the entire breech section off his original Model of 1874 gun so he could copy it. But Bud being the stupid @## that he is could not duplicate the parts for my gun. The guy that rebuild my gun asked me if Bud had any machining experience. I bet he was a tool room attendant and he lied to me about being a tool and die maker for 30+ years. A high school student in shop class could lay out 10 holes equally spaced on a 6" dia. better than Bud did. 360 degrees divided by 10 equals a 36 degrees spread between the centerlines of each barrel, all you have to do is pay attention to what you are doing on the job.