AR 15 450 Bushmaster (don't know where to put this)

[Mr Humble]

I can't find a search function here other than google so I'm taking a shot in the dark and posting this here as it is based on a military rifle.

After a long search found a 450 Bushmaster upper that will probably got on my R15 lower as they were made by BM.

Bullets are .452 and I see no reason to "plink" with expensive jacked ones. Due to velocity, I'm quite sure a gas checked bullet, autofeed friendly and in the 200-250 gr range. I've poked around the mold makers websites and struck out.

If I could find the plain old 230 gr 45 ACP roundnose (that I use in all my 1911s) only with a gas check that would probably work fine for busting steel.

Any suggestions, most welcome. Thanks !:castmine:

[IraqVet1982]

I have a 450 and plan on sizing down 458 down to 452-458. The 450bm forum has some data, I'd check there but you'll need a CG or PC bullet. You'll also need to check for tumbling, the 450 takes a little to stabilize. Good luck and let us know what happens.

[C. Latch]

Are you looking for bullets or a mold?

If you're looking for a mold, Accurate Molds lists one in their catalog for the .450.

[C. Latch]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-280D-D.png

[Artful]

I don't own one but looking at Lyman designs
Lyman Bullet Mold #452651
45 Caliber (.452 Diameter) 325 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/740/740563.jpg

or

Lyman #451114 (.451 Diameter) 450 Grain Volunteerhttp://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/497/497427.jpg

[Artful]

OK, some more time in on this interesting cartridge



http://www.450bm.com/

has load data using lil gun powder and 400 grain bullet

http://450bushmaster.net/

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...loading%20Data

Subsonic discussion
http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11083


found this starting in 2008


I got my first black rifle this month, a 16" 450 Bushmaster. I've been running the numbers in Quickload for several reloading options. I'm really surprised at how versatile this cartridge is.

230 grain FMJ ball at 2500 fps
250 grain factory loads at 2100 fps
320 grain RCBS 45-300-FN GC's at 1900 fps
415 grain RCBS 45-405-FN GC's at 1550 fps

I've been lubing and sizing 45-70 bullets to 0.457" and re-sizing them to 0.452" with no problems. Little Gun, H110, 4227, and 296 are the most suitable powders for full power loads.

I haven't had the time or energy to shoot up enough of the factory loads to get enough brass to work with yet and I'm surprised at how little felt recoil there is with a 250 grain bullet at 2100 fps. I shot a few 320's and 415's at full power and they were about the same as a Marlin 1895 45-70's loads in felt recoil at equal velocities but more of a push than a jab at my shoulder as the action absorbs some of the energy.

The FMJ full power loads will go through a telephone pole!

The .450 Bushmaster (parent cartridge is the 45 Professional) rifle/cartridge conversion, was developed by Tim LeGendre of LeMAG FIREARMS LLC., and licensed to Bushmaster Firearms International LLC., for production and distribution. LeGendre still retains ownership. The 450 Bushmaster is designed to be used in the standard M-16/AR-15 platform, using standard magazines.
Bushmaster asked Hornady to produce the 45 Professional ammunition for this project, Hornady agreed. Hornady wanted the 45 Professional shortened, to accommodate their Venerable 250gr., Pointed, SST bullet. Hornady asked Bushmaster for the change (1.771" to the now standard 1.700"), Bushmaster asked LeGendre to sign off on that change, and he did. Bushmaster eventually wanted a name change and LeGendre agreed, to what has now become the popular 450 BUSHMASTER.

Parent case is the 284 Winchester; Hornady's brass uses a small rifle primer for improved ignition characteristics. Groove diameter for the 450 Bushmaster is 0.450" and it shoots cast bullets well. Hornady ammo is loaded to 37-38K psi which is very conservative in comparison to the 45 Professionals working pressure of 60K psi. This cartridge headspaces on the case mouth like a 45 ACP does.

I'm using the RCBS 45-300-FN gas check bullet sized nose first with a gas check to 0.458" then lubed in the same die the normal way (lubrisizer) and resized nose first to 0.452". I'm shooting these 320 grain bullets at 2100 fps to develop over 3000 foot pounds of energy out of my 16" 450 Bushmaster Carbine. This load feels like shooting a 20 gage shotgun or a 12 gage with trap loads... surprisingly mild for that kind of energy.

IMO my 450 Bushmaster is one of the most versatile rifles I own with the ability to load it anywhere from mild to wild, and can easily handle any game in North America out to 200 yards. The 250 grain SST factory load routinely shoots 1" 100 yard groups from Bushmaster rifles. Hornady is making brass available now and introduced a new 300 grain SST bullet. By re-sizing 0.458" bullets to 0.452" including jacketed bullets the 450b can easily use bullets anywhere from 45 ACP 180 grain bullets to 405 grain 45-70 bullets... 230 grain FMJ's @ 2750 fps will go thru anything.

LeGendre's comments:

"Ok, let me be so bold as to think I might be able to offer some help and clear up some well meaning misconceptions concerning the 450 Bushmaster. First off, I have a strong background and experience with this cartridge. Fact-Hornady, does make some of their cartridges with their super powders. The 450 Bushmaster is not one of them. Fact-.451” SST Bullets are going to be hard to get for the near future, as all available bullets are going on loaded factory ammo, this is a hot seller. Ammo is available from Hornady direct or everywhere on the internet and can be shipped to you. Rifles are easy to find in the same mannor, shipping is different. Yes, SST muzzle loading bullets can be had, but this is an expensive option if you plan on shooting allot. Same for brass, but just get some 284WIN or 6.5/284 brass cut them to 1.700” -.003 and bingo, until others come on board, hint-Corbon, maybe. The FL resize can be done with a standard 284 fl-die and bullet seating and taper crimp with 45ACP dies, watch the bullet seater, the wrong one will leave marks on the bullet. Yes, if pistol bullets are used, designed to expand at range and 300fps, they won’t penetrate large game, so use bullets that will for crying out loud, this caliber has been around for 150 years, there are highly available bullets for every and any use, save the HP‘s for home defense, they wont penetrate anything but will leave a real mess if you shoot flesh. Fact-Hornady’s 250gr SST are designed for big game and magnum muzzle loader speeds, 2000-2200fps (Hornady’s 450b 2200fps+). Therefore, that bullet at much higher speeds, +500-700fps, would also under-penetrate big game because of over expansion. Fact-Hornady’s 450B loading, I believe, was held down so as not to over stress that bullet on Big Game. According to my strain gage test the Hornady loading is 38,000psi. The AR is stressed to well over 75,000psi. And the 460S&W factory “PISTOL” ammo is 60,000psi. Fact-200gr to 300gr bullets can be made to speeds of 500fps to 700fps faster than the 38,000psi loads and not exceed 60,000psi, all with our normal powders. Fact- the Barnes 200gr and 275gr bullet, that are made for the 460S&W, will expand and penetrate “EVERYTHING” at the same time and will fly at 2800fps and 55,000psi and a little more psi for the 275gr. If that isn’t good enough and more penetration is needed try the various 230gr FMJ’s at 3000fps. I like the 230gr FP-FMJ’s best of all, the FP disrupts more tissue than expanded bullets, fly straight through the body with no inter-body deflection off bones, which is all to common with expansion bullets and can result in non-recovered animals and best of all, the FP’s will kill “EVERYTHING”-“ANYWHERE”, with truly amazing aplomb. Just a little foot-up for ya all, just to get you started…"

The rifle comes with a 5 round magazine that's actually a 20 round 5.56 magazine with a single shot follower on top of the grey no-tilt 5.56 follower and a weird spring that limits the capacity to 5 rounds. My rifle will feed fine from the magazine with the single shot follower removed and will hold 7 rounds by replacing the spring with a regular 20 round magazine spring.

Regular 5.56 magazines will work OK, 20 round mags hold 7 rounds and 30 round mags will hold 10-12 rounds. Steel magazines with the no-tilt follower work best.

If your mags don't feed well add the single shot (blue) follower on top of the 5.56 follower.

LeGendre's comments about these pressures in the 450 Bushmaster:

"We normally load the 45 Pro to 60,000 psi with 230 ball or FMJ flat points my favorite. Yes, I know that the 458Socom and the 50Beo are loaded to the 35,000 psi area, but then again those great cartridges do not have the barrel thickness the 450b has in the chamber area. Here’s my example, a “Mountain Rifle”, bolt action weapon, chambered for the 284win case has a SAMMI spec in the area of 63,000 psi and has a barrel chamber diameter the same as the 450b. The other proof is Bushmaster told me that twice they loaded to these pressures and fired 6000 rds + each time with no ill effect and my friends and I load to these pressures and have done so for years, normally. So, why does Hornady load for 38,000 psi, as they have quoted? They tell me the Lawyers won or that they did not want to over stress their SST bullet, which is designed for magnum muzzle loader velocities of around 2000fps and would blow up on deer, like a varmint bullet would do, if you pushed them as we can actually do. My personal loads in the 450b, for the 250gr. bullet START at 2500fps and go up, but then who can afford those bullets, sold in twenty packs. I’ve tried the 200gr SST and compressed a load of 296 and achieved 2800fps, with only slightly flatting of the primers. If you need a pointed expanding bullet, Barnes makes excellent 200 & 275 grain varieties.

As for “Bolt Thrust” with these pressures (70,000psi +), Wayne State University’s Engineering Dept., in a published article, I forget which gun rag ran it now, actually ran “MEASURED” test, not calculated and found that at these increased pressures, the bolt thrust was just a little less that the .223 case and this because of a effect known as Bernoulli's Theorem, which basically tells us that necked cartridges have way more bolt thrust than straight cases and all the bolt thrust formulas are based on those necked cases, hence not at all accurate for the 450b. My Buddies and I have never seen a bolt failure and don’t ever expect to and we only use, what you might call, max loads, we don’t think they are but others might and we’ve never had a problem and together we have maybe a million rounds down range or certainly many, many, 100,000’s at least."

Like any other cartridge, some will load this one conservatively and some will push the limits. It's up to you to decide what feels right for your own comfort level and safety; however, you should shoot the rifle to experience the vastly different power pulse between a 223 upper and a 450b upper before making off the wall conclusions.

My personal experience with this cartridge in the AR platform has been similar to my experience with the 45 Colt... 320 - 350 grain bullets and enhanced performance levels can be achieved safely in modern firearms.

This information is presented simply as that, information. None of the load data presented by me in this thread exceeds Hornady's factory ammo specifications.

Finally had a chance to work some more with the Thumper and cast boolits. Got to thinking how much I liked Unique in my 45 Colt Blackhawk and Puma 92. Looked up some data for the 45/70 in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and found loads with Unique. Started low and have so far worked up to 15.5 grs Unique. This isn't as much as the manual list for the 45/70 Ruger #1 loads but the 450 BM has less case capacity. This will not cycle the action (16inch BushMaster Arms 450BM) and will only occasionally eject the last round in the mag. To bad it won't cycle because I'm getting good initial results. Right at 1.5 inch at 50 yard with a red dot sight. Load seems real mild but I will probably switch to a slower powder to keep working up. Here's the load FYI.

Hornady case
Wolf small rifle primer
15.5 grs. Unique
Lee C452-300-rf, weighing 324grs checked and lubed
OAL 1.964
Average Velocity for only 5 shots, 1436 fps
ES 16 fps
SD 6 fps

With that kind of SD it's really tempting to work up to just cycle the action.

Stay safe,

Boomer :Fire:



I've done quite a lot of load work with the Lee 300 grainer and a 293 grainer I designed on the MM site. I've only shot a few of the 400+ boolits while working on subsonic loads, so I don't have much to offer you for those. You might spend some time looking around at:

http://450bushmaster.net/

One issue to watch out for using the heavier boolits is a bulge in the case at the heel of the longer boolits. You'll hit a point where they will chamber, but not quite let the gun go into battery, jamming the action. This leads to tapping the round back out with a rod while pulling back on the charging handle. A fairly dangerous proposition with a live round over a floating firing pin. This issue is a given if you're using cut down .284 brass, and it will also occur with the Hornady factory brass at some given boolit weight depending on your particular chamber.

One reason I haven't spent much time with boolits much over 300 grains is that a 300 grainer @ 2,000 fps will completely penetrate any creature I'm likely to encounter end for end. So I don't see any reason to give up the trajectory, and deal with the loading headaches, of the longer boolits.

BD

and

I have that mold in the garage waiting for me to get my reloading room put back together. After about 1,000 rounds I've learned a few things that you will discover:
-You will want a gas check design as otherwise the gas port takes a little bite out of the boolit heel as it passes and deposits it on the rear of the bolt. I've had pretty poor accuracy with plain base boolits.
-you will want to modify a lee 45/70 factory crimp die to use for a "waist" crimp just behind the rim. boolit pull as the cartridge is slammed into the chamber is a real issue. Without a real good crimp SDs can be in the 100's
- cut down .284 cases are thicker than the hornady factory brass. This makes them more suitable for condoms in the .452 - .452 range as if you seat a .453 cast boolit heavier than about 230 grains, the boolit heel will bulge the case sides wedging the round in the chamber. They do give much better case neck tension with the jacketed stuff. The Hornady factory brass being thinner, it allows seating fatter cast boolits deeper with fewer problems.

If you measure the boolit length and actual weight of that Lee 300 grain FP, then load a dummy round that will chamber and tell me the dimensions, I'll run the numbers on quickload.
BD


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/450Bushmaster1_zps399fee95.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/posting%20pics/450Bushmaster1_zps399fee95.jpg.html)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/450Bushmasterdata_zps9fb136d1.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/posting%20pics/450Bushmasterdata_zps9fb136d1.jpg.html)

AS A THOUGHT

Did you know that you can put a gas check on plain base boolits?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?196574-PatMarlin-s-plain-base-gas-check-maker
http://www.patmarlins.com/


Checkmaker™ PB version dies are breaking new ground-

The beauty of the my PB version dies is you can take advantage of inexpensive thin metals. Shooters are now able to use and buy plain base molds in place of check shank molds and have the best of both worlds in one mold without the higher cost of thicker metals, or expensive factory gas checks.

We are getting remarkable performance out of firearms, even auto loaders with group sizes shrinking, and no more leading. The PB dies have truly broke new ground, and have proven their performance with Checkmaker™ dies for 6 years now.

I now have customers who are winning local IPSC competitions with PB gas checks.

[C. Latch]

Some years ago I toyed with the idea of this cartridge in an AR but the idea never really took root in my mind.

I'm curious: how much meplat can you have on a .450BM bullet and still expect it to feed?

[Artful]

http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/450%20Bushmaster.gif
http://www.cartridgecomparisonguide.com/HG/460-50CAL_0417.jpg?x=%3C?=time%28%29?%3E

I would think as long as the meplat is under .24 should be ok.

[Mr Humble]

Thanks for the link to the mold but @ $92 for a DC blocks and a 280 gr GC bullet is a bit rich for a big bore plinker.
Lee makes a 300 gr GC for <$30. Metplat might be a bit large but, if so, I can always use them in my S&W 460.
Looks like a .451 sizer might be needed to avoid case bulge. Upper should arrive next week. BTW I have already swaged Hornady 45-70 300 gr jacketed HPs from .457 to .452 in the Lee bullet sizing die with no drama at all.
The Patsmarlin GC maker looks neat, I wish he has prices on the website. That would make using the std 230 gr 45 acp PB a breeze.

[rockrat]

I have used the Lee 452-300rf in my 450 with good results. I size to .453"

[Artful]

True, if the Lee works it's the best bargin -
If not look to NOE
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_454_325Gr._RF_334_gr_Sketch.J pg
or Accurate for what you need...

too bad I don't see the NOE Arcane molds on their web site
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71570&d=1369538816
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?98344-The-POINTY-Boolit-Mould-Buy!

[C. Latch]

If big flat-noses would work, that would be an awesome cartridge.

Over the years I've killed lots of deer with muzzleloaders with identical ballistics (250s at 2200) and they flat-out kill stuff.

[IraqVet1982]

I've got two deer with my 450. One dropped immediately another ran about 20yds and dropped. They do the trick.

[Mr Humble]

I have used the Lee 452-300rf in my 450 with good results. I size to .453"

So no feeding problems in an AR ? How hard are you casting them ? Thanks.

[Mr Humble]

True, if the Lee works it's the best bargin -
If not look to NOE
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_454_325Gr._RF_334_gr_Sketch.J pg
or Accurate for what you need...

too bad I don't see the NOE Arcane molds on their web site
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71570&d=1369538816
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?98344-The-POINTY-Boolit-Mould-Buy!

According to the group buy description, those pointy ones were all w/o gas checks, too light and none in .452

[Artful]

Actually the heaviest weights had GC shanks and AL did run some in .452 - that group buy got sort of crazy they made some in almost every Pistol caliber I think...

.626 dia
.502 dia
.476 dia (wt's: Fly wt 180gr, Med wt 257gr, Heavy wt 293gr approx for ww alloy)
.460 (wt's Flywt 162gr, Med wt 232gr, heavy wt 264gr approx for ww alloy)
.454 Dia
.434 Dia
.412 Dia
.403 Dia
.377 dia
.360 Dia
9mm/.358 dia

[BD]

The Lee .452 300-Rf works fine. No feeding issues, no leading issues. You will need gas checks. It's easy to get 2-1/2" groups at 100. You'll need to be pretty fussy to do a lot better.
BD

[Mr Humble]

Anyone using Hornady dies with jacketed or CBs ? If I use the taper crimp die (#4) shells will chamber but cannot be hand ejected. If I use it as a 3 die set no problems. Huh ?
Same with Hornady .451 jacketed or the 300 Lee sized to .451 or .452.
BTW the Lee feeds perfectly from the mag even when seated to the upper grease groove. First straight case die set I have ever had with a problem with the taper crimp die (9mm, 44 mag, 45 acp, 460 S&W)

[BD]

Humble, crimping is the area where this round requires a little more effort. You need to use the "thunk" test when adjusting the crimp die. Pull your upper and drop a loaded dummy round in, you are looking for the "thunk" sound as the case mouth hit's the end of the chamber. Too much crimp and the case mouth fit's past the end of the chamber and the round gets wedged in. I use a "waist crimp" die I made from a lee 45/70 FCD. It's modified so it puts a collet crimp on .1" below the case mouth. This gives me a solid crimp without reducing the diameter of the case mouth so I get reliable chambering and consistent ignition.
http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewforum.php?f=5

[Mr Humble]

Thanks, I talked to Hoot (450 BM site) and Hornady this AM and UNLIKE all other handgun 4 dies sets, die #4 is NOT designed to bring the loaded round back to original dimensions. It is only a taper crimp die (would be nice if Hornady took a page from Lee and included specific instructions with their dies !) I was told to back the die way out and move it down a bit at a time until the proper taper crimp was made AND the round could still be hand ejected. The method is more like putting a roll crimp on. "Try and test, try and test until you get it."
Question now is how to I salvage the cases that I have full length run into die #4. A 45 ACP die is too tight, but perhaps trying a bit at a time in my 460 S&W Lee die might get rid of the sticking point.

BTW anyone got loads for the 300 gr Lee with H110, 2400 or 4227 ? (Saving my Lil Gun for my Hornets)

Thanks

[Artful]

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=370982


300 Hornady XTP/MAG Accurate AAC-9 26.7 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Accurate AAC-9 28.3 1700
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon Lil'Gun 25.5 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon Lil'Gun 27.2 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon Lil'Gun 28.8 1700
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon Lil'Gun 30.5 1800
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon Lil'Gun 32.2 1900
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Ramshot Enforcer 27.2 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Ramshot Enforcer 28.7 1600
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon H-110 27.0 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon H-110 29.5 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon H-110 31.9 1700
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Hodgdon H-110 34.4 1800
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Winchester (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/mrdr.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fviglink.pgpartner.com%2F search.php%2Fform_keyword%3Dwinchester&mode=) W-296 28.7 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Winchester W-296 30.6 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Winchester W-296 32.6 1700
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Winchester W-296 34.5 1800
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG IMR IMR-4227 30.5 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG IMR IMR-4227 32.2 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG IMR IMR-4227 33.9 1700
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Vihtavuori VV-N120 32.5 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Vihtavuori VV-N120 34.2 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Vihtavuori VV-N120 36.0 1700
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Vihtavuori VV-N120 37.7 1800
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Vihtavuori VV-N120 39.5 1900
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Accurate AAC-1680 34.7 1500
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Accurate AAC-1680 36.6 1600
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Accurate AAC-1680 38.5 1700
Remarks: COL: 2.065"
300 Hornady XTP/MAG Accurate AAC-1680 40.4 1800
Remarks: maximum load; COL: 2.065"

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=324826

[Mr Humble]

Good info but all for jacketed bullets. Should be okay with cast as well.

[Artful]

Hey, being I don't own of these beasts - you get what I can find. :mrgreen:

[Sagebrush7]

I have 450 BM checks for sale. They are extra tall to protect lead bullets from gas port cutting on the side. They work! the guys on the AR forums used them for a while till they got there own in house gas check maker.

[tja6435]

115428There we go. 2 on left are as cast from the MP 44/444-300, coated with Hi-Tek red copper.

The next uncoated shows how it looks with leaving the hollow point.

The last 3 are swaged up to .452" with closed nose and the Corbin baseguard checks , they run right at 306-307gr

[Mr Humble]

Nice work, but still work. Crimp on .452-4 (like Hornady used to make) are available on fleabay.

[tja6435]

I've been running sub and super sonic (500/250gr) cast boolits coated with Hi-Tek in the 458 SOCOM without gas checks and I've had zero bore lead fouling. Not seeing lead fouling with cast 223 boolits either

[Mr Humble]

I don't know what you metal mix is, so I can't really comment. 5+ decades of shooting cast has taught me that 1700-1800 fps is about the practical limit of a very hard plain base bullet that is fully inside the neck. You're still on the edge of gas cutting which is what causes leading. The crimp on gas check allows you to push faster with more accuracy. As the 450 BM can easily exceed 2200 fps, I stick with GCs as lead removal is always a pain.

[kawasakifreak77]

I don't have one of these but a buddy does & boy is that a fun rifle!

He's not a reloader so he almost never shoots it, but wants to more. I've got some bullets laying around that should work & plenty of W296. Just need to find some dies & a few brass!

Interested to see what happens here.

[Artful]

I don't know what you metal mix is, so I can't really comment. 5+ decades of shooting cast has taught me that 1700-1800 fps is about the practical limit of a very hard plain base bullet that is fully inside the neck. You're still on the edge of gas cutting which is what causes leading. The crimp on gas check allows you to push faster with more accuracy. As the 450 BM can easily exceed 2200 fps, I stick with GCs as lead removal is always a pain.

the powder coating jacket is what allows more velocity without leading even without the gas check - see this thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220557-Real-Accuracy-%282-moa-or-less%29-with-Coated-Rifle-Bullets-at-1800-fps-or-greater

[tja6435]

115755Pic is upside down but it shows the Corbin style of swage on gas checks (base guards) I can make these in. 250gr, 310gr and 500gr weights with or without the checks. I just ordered the 1E punch for the nose, probably ordering a cup base punch as well soon. The alloy I'm using is wheel weights.

If you'd be interested in trying some of these out, I'd be happy to send some out if you'd share results with all of us. I run a 458 SOCOM and make the same bullets for it, just sized at .459" from a different die set.

[Mr Humble]

Wow Corbin style gas checks. I recall them from my original Lyman cast bullet book with the zinc washers on them.

I'm still messing with the Lee 300. Went and spent more money for the biggest SAECO metplat nose punch, SAECO 453 sizing die and crimp on gas checks. Had to open up the nose punch on a lathe. Then when you put the GC on the bullet and pushed it into the sizer most of the time the bullet would tip under the pressure to crimp the GC on, deforming one side of the bullet.

Next try. Lube the bullets in the .453 die with no GC. Worked fine. Put the GC on by hand, assisted with a gentle tap on the big flat nose. Then press them tail first thru a Lee .452 sizer which crimps on the GC but doesn't touch the lead. Now I have good looking bullets with a GC that won't fall off. Try and try again !

Tried some of the "all SAECO" done ones yesterday with 33 gr of 4198 @ 50 yards.
Total of 15 shot, 8" group with 6 on one ragged hole. Load is too light as I had two failures to cycle. In the 460 S&W they go up to a 38 gr with a 395 gr cast bullet, so I have some room to bump it up a bit. The 460 with the 395 is getting 1600 fps w/10.7" bbl so I believe 1500 with the 300 will be fine. When the boolits are good it shoots well. Ballistics are equal to the "old" 45-70 300

Now if I had it to do over again:
1. The Lee 300 mold throws fine boolits
2. The crimp on GCs (Ebay) are great
3. The bullets would be cast, pan lubed and extracted with a fired cut off 45-70 case. A harder lube than SPG is easier to pan lube with.
4. The gas check would be hand applied, perhaps with a tap to seat.
5. Push the GCed bullet backwards thru a Lee .452-3 die.
6. Be sure your seating depth and taper crimp ensures a solid thunk when the bolt is dropped.

I believe 2 MOA at 100 should be possible as my 450 will shoot factory into 1 MOA @100 with only a cheap Chinese scope.

More to follow after Speed Goat is put in freezer.

[Mr Humble]

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/antelope2014_zps08f150e5.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/rocketcity1/media/antelope2014_zps08f150e5.jpg.html)

1900 Mauser Werke Swedish/Danish 6.5x55 Sniper setup with 160 Hornady RN @ 2500 fps. Bang, Flop.


While waiting for deer & elk to open, played with the 450 some more @ 50 yards. Load was 33 gr 4227 w/300gr Lee GC.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/450BMcastgroup10114_zpse810135b.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/rocketcity1/media/450BMcastgroup10114_zpse810135b.jpg.html)

1st shot was 1 @ 12 OC, 2,3&4 made group at 5 OC, 5,6&7 made group at 1 OC,
8&9 are closet to center.

W/O the stringing and shot 1, it would be a 1" group. I shot them all in 10 minutes, so the barrel was warm @ the end.

No question of the rifle's accuracy as it will cloverleaf 3 factory rounds @100 yds.

With the 4227 load I had 2 failures to feed with the next shell 1/2 way out of the magazine. Bushmaster/Remington lower that has never malfuctioned with 223 or 300 B/O, so upping the charge is next.

IME with cast boolits since 1958, stringing is often a velocity issue.

Bright sun, 50 degrees and blowing like H**l ....... lousy for deer or elk.

[Artful]

Interesting adjustable mold design
http://noebulletmolds.com/photos/albums/Drawings/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_452_350Gr._PP___342_gr_Sketch .Jpg
to
http://noebulletmolds.com/photos/albums/Drawings/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_452_500Gr._PP.Jpg
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,426.0.html
it's for paper patched .458's but if you powder coated it,
I think it would work in 450 Bushmaster, but as it doesn't have
Gas check step you'd either have to use plain base gascheck's
or make 'em heavy so you'd keep velocities down to avoid gas cutting.

[Mr Humble]

Well I changed my method a bit. Rather than using the Lee .452 die to crimp the GCs on, I just set the SAECO to only crimp on the GC (uses a swing out arm designed for this).

If pushed thru or in/out both the Lee .452 die and the Saeco .454 were shaving on side of the bullet at the front. The Lee, probably because of size and putting the in base first to get the crimp on the GC. The Saeco appears to tip the bullet regardless of nose punch (I bought their largest which still has no wiggle room with the Lee bullet.)

The latest try was to crimp on the GCs with the Saeco segregate +-1 one gr and pan lube them. Bumped up 4227 to 36 gr (still one failure to feed)

Off to the range, 50 yards, no wind, no mirage and sent the 10 matched bullets on their way. At least the group was somewhat square save the flyer at 12 oclock.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/450bm101814_zpsa6042395.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/rocketcity1/media/450bm101814_zpsa6042395.jpg.html)


Usually large cast boolits are quite easy to get to shoot. My MZ Whitworth replica will shoot groups 1/2 this size at 200 yards. Ditto my 400 Whelen, 450/400, 45-70 and 458 Winchester.

If I wear my Merit eye disc, I can shoot my Kimber 45 acp this well at 50 yards !!!!!
(mumble, mumble!)

I'm gonna sacrifice some of my H110 and Lil Gun (5 each) to see if that makes any difference. Also gonna load up 4 .452 Colt (not acp) 300gr jacked with 4227 and see what happens.

We're still have August in October here. So warm I doubt you could kill an Elk and get it out before it was rotten.

[Mr Humble]

Given up on 450 BM w/cast boolits. It just is not happy with them. No hogs running amuck in WY so it's going down the road. 300 Blackout is far more fun to shoot and very accurate. So are two 223s and one 308. (all ARs)

450 is great w/jacketed bullets but not what I mostly shoot.

[Mr Humble]

I'm all done with the 450 BM. If you want a mint upper, Hornady dies, ammo etc. drop me a PM.
I have it listed at the best price price on the net.

[archangel2003]

Humble, crimping is the area where this round requires a little more effort. You need to use the "thunk" test when adjusting the crimp die. Pull your upper and drop a loaded dummy round in, you are looking for the "thunk" sound as the case mouth hit's the end of the chamber. Too much crimp and the case mouth fit's past the end of the chamber and the round gets wedged in. I use a "waist crimp" die I made from a lee 45/70 FCD. It's modified so it puts a collet crimp on .1" below the case mouth. This gives me a solid crimp without reducing the diameter of the case mouth so I get reliable chambering and consistent ignition.
http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewforum.php?f=5

Just curious as I have a 45 Raptor (made from .460 S&W brass at .452 not .454) and can see the same issue being possible.
I'd like to see about crimping my cases below the case mouth and would like to know more about how you made your modifications to the die.
Ordering a LEE 90856 Lee Precision 45-70 Factory Crimp Die right now.
I assumed the crimp dies were simply tapered and would hit the case mouth and not go past it, and adjusting the die deeper would just push harder against the case mouth just making it tighter and with a smaller OD.
Go too far crimping to tight and no more head space as the case mouth slips past where it's supposed to head space from.

[Moiecol]

Dear Humble, I'm from the year 2023 and we are yet to find load data and rounds are still scarce. You posted in 2014 and you'll think by now something would be available by now.
🤔🤔😳🙄😂
One day it will happen !!!