H4198 versus H4227. Which is best?

[303Guy]

That's for rifle. What do you folks recommend or find the best for that medium load in a rifle case? More specifically, in a 303 Brit sized case but in general too. I've been using H4227 because I have some (originally for my hornet). It seems to work OK but only up to a certain level and at too low a level, I get unburned kernels which I solve by using a filler (wheat bran, wheat germ and grits and soon to come COW now that I know what it is and have some). Dacron does not work other than as a positioner. Wheat germ increases pressure the least. I assume H4198 has similar minimum levels but higher than for H4227. What difference in max velocity can one expect? Is there a difference in max accurate velocity? And, can one double charge H4198? That's assuming a max accuracy load is being used.

[longbow]

303Guy:

I lean towards IMR4227 as like you, I have it around for other uses. I find it quite good with light to medium weight boolits like my 130 gr. Mihec 316410 HP. With heavy boolits velocities are a bit limited.

I have used both 4198 and 4895 with good success but haven't done side by side comparisons or chronographed loads so no direct data.

I have also tried slower powders ~ IMR4064 and IMR4320 with rather poor results but I did not do any load work up. I tried starting loads and got pretty poor accuracy so didn't pursue it. I should give them another go.

What is your velocity goal and with what weight boolit? I have some good info from David Southall that he e-mailed me. David wrote the cast boolit article here:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

There used to be more cast boolit loads IIRC but this is it now:

http://www.303british.com/id16.html

That's about all I've got.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks, Well, I'm wanting accuracy firstly but preferable at some fair distance so velocity does come into it. Then of course I would hunt feral goat with it so again a fair velocity is needed. However, the primary objective is to use it for range time.

If H4198 is better for my purposes then I can pass my H4227 on to a buddy for his 44 mag Rossi carbine. Unless the two have a distinctive difference in appearance. That's just me, I don't want powders that look identical.

[NYBushBro]

8mm Mauser, 30-40 Krag, and 303 Brit are very similar in case capacity (ie: 'ballistic twins' - or triplets in this case.)

Offhand, I would recommend going on e-bay and seeing if you could pick up an older reloading manual (50's 60's, or the 1970 version - my personal favorite.)

[303Guy]

Thanks. I might just do that. I should actually get a cast boolit manual! The only manual I have and it is well read, is a Speer No10 Reloading manual. The thing is though, the manuals don't give real world personal experiences which is really what I am asking about. They have nothing about the RPM threshold (I think?) I also wonder whether any of them mention worn or rust damaged bores?

[longbow]

Aaahhh! I didn't realize you were lacking in cast boolit load data. I have the Lyman Cast Bullet Reloading Manual and a bunch of stuff I have found on the internet.

As well there is reloading data here:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/default.html

The Ideal #38 and Lyman #44 both have cast boolit data and somewhere I found the old NRA cast bullet info for download but I can't remember where.

.303 British data is a bit scarce in American manuals but all loads for .30-40 Krag are safe to shoot in .303 British with same weight boolit so that opens a few doors because there tends to be a lot more .30-40 Krag data published.

There is a cast boolit load lookup too but it does not seem to be working for me right now.

One comment I can add from real world experience is that I ran into boolit skidding in the Lee Enfields. I think this is due to heavy boolits with relatively fast powders behind them and 1:10" twist rifling. Downloading solved it but of course is no help if one is wanting the higher velocity. Oven heat treating also solved it for me. So a harder boolit may be required if you are seeking relatively high velocities. Water dropping or oven heat treating is your friend there... especially if you do not have linotype. Slower powders also give slower acceleration so should also be better in that regard. I was using top end charges of IMR4227 which is pretty fast.

Hah! There they are:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/AR/default.html

NRA Cast Bullets by Harrison.

That should help get you going.

Longbow

[PAT303]

For the 303 AR2207 is best,I've shot kilo's of the stuff in numerous 303's from 20gns up and it's not hard to get a load that works.My standard load is 23grns with NOE's 316365,316299 and CBE's 315220 boolit.It's a very good cast boolit powder. Pat

[303Guy]

Thanks Longbow. I'm actually fairly adept at developing loads without manuals but having the manuals is always beneficial. The question on H4227 versus H4198 is about making an informed choice. H4198 seems like a better idea because it is slower and more of can be used but is it worth changing over? Does H4198 have the range of H4227 and vice versa? Accuracy is paramount of course since I want to spend trigger time on the bench. So can either powder go low enough for accuracy and how high can each go with accuracy and which is likely to be more accurate? Lots of questions. Is it worthwhile taking the step of buying some H4198 and doing a set of comparative tests?

Thanks, PAT303. That answers my question.

[sthwestvictoria]

.

Unless the two have a distinctive difference in appearance. That's just me, I don't want powders that look identical.
The two powders are quite different. H4227 (ar2205) is granular and jet black. H4198 ( ar2207) is a short extruded rod,

[303Guy]

H4227 (ar2205) is granular and jet black.Mine is a short extruded rod and is greenish. Anyway, if they are different then good.

[sthwestvictoria]

Mine is a short extruded rod and is greenish. Anyway, if they are different then good. I presume you are referring to the H4198 there. Yes, a short rod, grey/green in colour. The other mid-speed powders from ADI like AR2206H (H4895), AR2208 (Varget) are all that extruded rod with grey/green colour.

[Larry Gibson]

Which is best; H4227 or H4198?

That depends. In your 303 it depends on the cast bullet weight and the velocity you wish to drive them. Both of them will not burn clean, even with a Dacron filler, if the bullet weight is to light, the powder charge to light for the powder to reach sufficient psi to burn efficiently. Neither is very good if you have to drive the cast bullet too fast for accuracy to achieve efficient powder burn. Or, that you have to resort to the fillers you have to get the powder to burn efficiently.

If that's the situation it's time to switch to a faster powder that ignites and burns efficiently with the bullet you are using while maintaining a velocity range for accuracy. Or use a heavier cast bullet to increase psi for efficient powder burn while keeping the velocity down to an accurate level.

Both H4227 and H4198 can be very good powders in the 303......and sometimes not. Many times we find what we have and want to use when it comes to powder is really the "best" regardless of how good either powder may be in other circumstance.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

From chatting to guys here in SA who shoot a lot of cast and a lot of cast in 303s, AR2205 (H4227) is one of the best all round powders for cast, but AR2207 (H4198) would be the best powder in the 303.

My AR2205 is not jet black, it looks very similar to 07, 06h and 08 and 09 (not a good thing).

The answer of course will come down to what velocity you seek and what projectile you are using. I think AR2205 starts to loose it appeal in cases larger than the 30-30.

H4198 will give you lower pressure and more fill.

[PAT303]

Which is best; H4227 or H4198?

That depends. In your 303 it depends on the cast bullet weight and the velocity you wish to drive them. Both of them will not burn clean, even with a Dacron filler, if the bullet weight is to light, the powder charge to light for the powder to reach sufficient psi to burn efficiently. Neither is very good if you have to drive the cast bullet too fast for accuracy to achieve efficient powder burn. Or, that you have to resort to the fillers you have to get the powder to burn efficiently.

If that's the situation it's time to switch to a faster powder that ignites and burns efficiently with the bullet you are using while maintaining a velocity range for accuracy. Or use a heavier cast bullet to increase psi for efficient powder burn while keeping the velocity down to an accurate level.

Both H4227 and H4198 can be very good powders in the 303......and sometimes not. Many times we find what we have and want to use when it comes to powder is really the "best" regardless of how good either powder may be in other circumstance.

Larry Gibson
Sorry Larry but saying they don't burn clean is wrong,I've shot thousands of 303's loaded with AR2207,H4198 and never clean my rifles,I use Lars lube and last time out had no trouble holding 1 1/2 at 100.I've never had unburnt powder,squibs,big velocity or impact changes using 2207,thats why I use it. Pat

[Gtek]

"Both of them will not burn clean, even with a Dacron filler, (IF) the bullet weight is to light, the powder charge to light for the powder to reach sufficient psi to burn efficiently."

[longbow]

I find IMR4227 to burn quite cleanly in my .303's and it seems to do well with light to heavy boolits though with heavy boolits (200 grs. +) velocities are limited.

In my .44 mag. Marlin, I use mostly IMR4227 with boolits from 240 to 270 grs. I tried it with my lightweight 165 gr. TC from Accurate but lots of unburned powder. A faster powder was in order there.

Never had a problem in my .303's or .308 though.

Longbow

[Larry Gibson]

PAT303

Please read Gtek's quote of mine to better understand what I said; "burn clean" is referring to burning efficiently and not leaving the unburned kernels as the OP mentions ("at too low a level, I get unburned kernels"). Getting the rifle dirty where it has to be cleaned is not the issue at hand. That you've never "had unburnt powder,squibs,big velocity or impact changes using 2207" simply means your using a bullet weight and powder charge of 2207 that causes the powder charge the "burn clean", i.e. it ignites easily and reaches a psi where it burns efficiently. That is the essence of what I said that needs to be done. When done correctly (it's not hard to do correctly) either powder is very good with cast bullets. I use both myself in numerous cartridges including the 303.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Thanks for all the input.


I presume you are referring to the H4198 there. Yes, a short rod, grey/green in colour. No, AR2205.

It seems I should carry on using H4227 for now at least. I do have W748 which might just meet my needs. The boolit I have that fits the throat is 184grs. I like that boolit because the nose engages the rifling right at the ogive and the ogive touches the leade with normal seating depths so apart from aligning the boolit it should give that initial resistance to help burn the powder.

[Larry Gibson]

303Guy

No reason not to carry on with H4227. That should indeed be a very good bullet. The essence of the problem seems to be "at too low a level, I get unburned kernels"....correct? If that's the case then simply use a Dacron filler and up the charge a bit at a time until sufficient psi is reached for the H4227 to burn clean. You probably will find the better accuracy there also. Nothing wrong with H4227 at all when used correctly. BTW; Only your rifle with proper testing will really tell which powder is "best"; H4227 or H4198.

Larry Gibson

[PAT303]

Thanks for all the input.

No, AR2205.

It seems I should carry on using H4227 for now at least. I do have W748 which might just meet my needs. The boolit I have that fits the throat is 184grs. I like that boolit because the nose engages the rifling right at the ogive and the ogive touches the leade with normal seating depths so apart from aligning the boolit it should give that initial resistance to help burn the powder.
25grns of 2207 under a lapped out Lee 185grn mold gave me 1960fps average and accuracy was as good as I could shoot.20grns under the CBE 220grn boolit shoots excellent at 100 in my 2 groove No.4,thats a good easy practise load,all my boolits are WW and range scrap water dropped at 16bhn,I seat them touching the throat,that rifle doesn't like filler. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

PAT303

Both of loads put 2207 into an efficient burn range. That's why your loads burn "clean".

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

... 25grns of 2207 under a lapped out Lee 185grn mold gave me 1960fps average ...1960fps is a very healthy velocity. I would tend to think the same velocity cannot be achieved with 2205 (4227). That lapped out 185gr mold should weigh in around 190/195 would it?

That mold I made was intended as a full support, throat fitting boolit so its length was limited by the throat and 184gr is quite respectable for a paper puncher (and goat and rabbit puncher).I would hope to get at least 1800fps although 1600fps would be fine for paper.

[PAT303]

I couldn't get close to 2000fps without pressure signs,the best load I ever fired was 28grns of 2207,that shot very tight almost minute of angle but again pressure signs,out of ten shots almost half had a noticeable tighter bolt lift.Another powder you should try is AR2219,H322,30grns giving 1900fps with the NOE 316299 with no pressure,good case fill and excellent accuracy. Pat

[PAT303]

Sorry,re last post,2205 couldn't get near 2000fps without pressure,2207 does it as does 2219. Pat

[PAT303]

PAT303

Both of loads put 2207 into an efficient burn range. That's why your loads burn "clean".

Larry Gibson
I kinda figured this out already Larry,about 10 years ago. Pat

[RPRNY]

I prefer 4227 for heavier cast loads. I load a lot for the 30-40 in both Krag and Ruger No 3. 22 hrs 4227 and 180gr cast GC is an excellent formula in both rifles. 4227 is definitely a little dirtier than 4198 but I get lower standard deviations with 4227 than IMR 4198 and prefer H 4198 accordingly. 20 grs 4227 with the 220 gr 311284 GC is also a treat.

[303Guy]

AR2219,H322,30grns giving 1900fps with the NOE 316299 with no pressure,good case fill and excellent accuracy. PatI like the sound of that.


I prefer 4227 for heavier cast loads.OK. Well, it did quite fine under a 205gr paper patched boolit. That was with wheat germ filler though which does buffer the boolit base. Pressure was getting up there but not excessive.


4227 is definitely a little dirtier than 4198 I've never noticed anything dirty about H4227. I have had unburnt kernels with too low a load but otherwise it seemed pretty clean.

[Animal]

I have both powders on my shelf. My goal was to work up a load for my AK that would function the gas piston, leave my barrel clean and give me the best dang shot groups that I can get out of these loosely assembled rifles; basically just a round that I can use during those times when 1 shot 1 kill is the only option. My best charge weight gives me 1.25 in group, 5 of 5 with iron sights and a bag rest at 40 yards (which isn't great for some, but great for my abilities). Standard factory ammo usually gives me closer to 3 in group. I've been so happy with H4198 that I don't think I care to try the IMR4227, H335 or even the Reloder7 that I have on the shelf. This powder leaves my rifle very clean, tosses my brass pretty far (which is an indicator of reliable chambering) and the accuracy is far better than I expected to get out of my first choice of powder. I may try the other powders if I get bored enough, but right now, based on my .02 cents worth of experience, I like H4198. I think I'm going to reserve my IMR4227 for developing some .44 mag loads.

[Larry Gibson]

I kinda figured this out already Larry,about 10 years ago. Pat


Figured you had. 303Guy is wanting loads down around 1600 fps with his 184 gr cast bullet though and w/o a filler of some sort (I still would prefer Dacron) neither powder may be burning efficiently, especially if he is actually loading less than that. Lyman lists the "start" loads for both 4227 and 4198 (IMRs but there's not that much difference) at 1600 fps with the Lee 185 gr bullet. Lyman's "start" loads are most often where the powder starts to burn efficiently. With another bullet, another rifle and using the Australian made powders introduces enough variables that neither powder may not burn efficiently at that load level for 303Guy. Obviously H4227 doesn't or we wouldn't be having this discussion. May be 303Guy will have to accept a bit more velocity or switch to a faster burning more easily ignitable and consistently burning powder down at the level he wants?

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

1600 fps would be OK if it's accurate but more is better. I'm hoping for 1800 fps or more but I'll be using plain base boolits so I may have to settle fore less.

I made the observation once that 4227 type powders will burn fully in longer barrels or higher pressure. From what is being said it seems the accurate load density is fairly high and I'm thinking it's a balance between too much pressure for the boolit to withstand and enough pressure for an efficient burn.

[Larry Gibson]

303Guy

For 1800 fps you might want to look more at H4895. Try 25 - 27 gr with a Dacron filler. That shoots very well in my Ross Mk 10 and C1950 Mk4 No2* under the GB C314-041, the C312-185-R and the 314299.

Larry Gibson

[RPRNY]

22grs 4227 under Lyman 311041GC sized .311" in the 30-40 delivers 1831 fps with an SD of 12 fps in my Ruger no 3 and 1811 fps with an 18 fps SD in my Krag. That shouldn't be more than 30 - 50 fps different in the 303. No filler. No problem. Try it, you'll like it! It's an Ed Harris load.

[303Guy]

Thanks to you all. So it seems there is a range of suitable powders, 4227, 4198, 2219 (H322), 4895 and W748. I have H4227 and W748. W748 is close to H4895 so perhaps I should work with that powder before buying some H4895 and it seems like H4227 will serve a purpose so perhaps I should work with that before deciding on H4198 or H322.

The 303 is somewhat smaller than the 30-40 so I would expect I would need to reduce that load by the proportional difference in capacity which is around 4.5% according to Ammoguide but I don't know if that includes the necks or not. That would mean a load of 21gr would be comparable.

So the next question would be where should I start with H4227/AR2205, what increments should I go up in and what maximum should I expect? That's with a 184gr boolit. I suppose I could start at 21grs and work up and down for an accuracy comparison and to find the limits. I know that 22grs under a 214gr boolit does no damage to the boolit base. 18grs under a 206gr paper patched boolit was accurate at 100m. Paper patching will still be done but this is for plain cast for more volume.

[PAT303]

You've used 18grns so start there,be very careful as you can easily double charge,one of the reasons I switched to 2207. Pat

[303Guy]

be very careful as you can easily double charge,Aah yes. That's a very big concern. I'm the first one to point out that possibility. I don't actually plan on using 2205 as an ongoing, just for starting off. I do have a rigorous double checking procedure but even so. Actually, maybe I should skip the 2205.

[Larry Gibson]

Start at 21 gr with the H4227 and work up to 28 gr. That should run from 1600 - to 2000 +/- fps.

Larry Gibson

[PAT303]

28grns is an overload with AR2207 shooting 200+ grain boolits in my LE's,you won'y get near it with AR2205. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

PAT303

303Guy states; "The boolit I have that fits the throat is 184grs." thus 28 gr of H4227 is not an "overload" as per Lyman CBH #4. However, with a 200 gr cast bullet such as you use it would be.

Larry Gibson

[PAT303]

Ok Larry,if the book says so,my three LE's won't do it,I've been their with Lymans 314291. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

Pat
I certainly agree with you as neither will my Ross with any kind of accuracy. The Ross's longer 29 1/2" barrel pushes the velocity to over 2100 fps which is too fast for that twist with H4227 for any kind of accuracy. It just pushes that bullet too hard. However, the psi is within limits for the SMLE's and No4s. Just no accuracy is all. With H4227 and the Lee C312-185 bullet (COWWs + 2% tin or RL+Pb+tin WQ'd at 18 - 19 BHN) the best accuracy comes down around 23 or 24 gr of H4227 or IMR4227 with a Dacron filler.

I only gave 303Guy the start and max listed loads figuring he would work up to what his rifle likes. We're on the same page here:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[NYBushBro]

Quite a while ago, I picked up a slide-rule type calculator by a fellow (and it only dealt with IMR/DuPont powders)... his name escapes me at the moment (Homer Powley, I think).

One of the best things about this calculator was that it came with a set of instructions that were worth the price of the slide-rule, as it actually taught me about the differences between the different powders (4227, 4198, 4895) which was worth the price of the whole she-bang.

Case in point: for one of my favorite calibers, 7.62x39 Soviet - 125 grain bullets = 4227, 150 grain bullets = 4198, 170 grain = 4895/3031. A valuable teaching tool... at least for me.

Sometimes, what seems like obsolete technology teaches more than hours spent on the internet... as these guys had to do things the 'old school' way.
The 'Ol' Boys' are passing... and common sense load data that was talked about at deer camp around the fire are coming to a close.

I still have that slide-rule calculator, and (when using DuPont powder - or its generic equivalent, ADI) it gives a baseline for powders to pick - or NOT pick, for loads with a particular weight bullet (tailored to be at full-case loads by its inventor).

Call me old-fashioned, but if the internet went down tomorrow, I still have 40-60 year old load manuals that will at least 'put me in the ballpark' for starting loads - and maximum loads too, for that matter.

If you want to shoot 50-100 year old guns, look at 50-100 year old load manuals (with a grain of salt.) Some of these powders that we have NOW were being produced when these guns were NEW (Winchester Model 1910 .401 WSL - case in point).

MORALE: have a 'back-up plan' - what once was known as 'Plan B'... no electric, no internet = NOT a problem (or 'issue', as the younger folks like to say).

BUY BOOKS... and learn to READ... you may be reading the sum total of a person's written life (ie: Homer Powley, P.O. Ackley, Hatcher, Whelen, Harvey Donaldson, Ken Waters, or even the original 'Ideal/Lyman' man himself... Barlow.)

PS: my latest 'good book' is HANDLOADERS MANUAL, by Earl Naramore (1937).

Information lost due to neglect by future generations is a sin.

[NYBushBro]

ADDENDUM: Fred Ness was shooting ZINC cast bullets at the close of WW II... at least HALF the weight, and with serious velocity (from "Practical Dope on the Big Bores" circa 1947).

Instead of buying MOLDS on e-bay, cast bullet shooters should be buying BOOKS!) :-)

OK... I'm done ranting.

[PAT303]

Unfortunately people who do things differently on this forum tend to get nothing but negative comments so they don't post results and usually leave and go elsewhere taking their findings with them.I think zinc boolits,dry lube coatings etc are all part of boolit casting and should be accepted but lots of people don't think that way,I am supprised that the members over at the CBA forum think Hi Tek coating is snake oil and as one fellow said he's a con even though it's been in Australia for decades,the other is alloy gas checks that will destroy your barrel???,give me a break. Pat

[303Guy]

Someone mentioned making 303 cases from 30-40 and got flamed for inciting dangerous practices - a whole 120 people viewed that thread! Imagine the dangers of such suggestions! Then the same mod went on to talk about making 35/303 cases from 303 cases and firing then in his rebarrelled 303! :groner: It was an Enfield dedicated forum. I just quietly faded away there. This forum is great!:drinks:

Anyway, great information.I like that slide rule comparator idea - it would be easy to create a spreadsheet with a few formulae to do the same thing (only it won't work without power but one can make print-outs for the event).