H4895 fizzle and no bang!

[karlrudin]

I recently found an article here saying that a person can reduce loads using H4895 up to 60% with safety. I used it on a 8 x 57 mauser usining a 200 grain bullet. The first 3 rounds went off without a problem. Was a click. After waiting 10 seconds, I opened the breach and retracted the casing which had a hard clump of brown powder the size of the neck. I shook it out and the rest of the powder was still in the case. Upon lighting it, it was hard to start burning and the burn speed and flame where WAY under par of any rifle powder I've seen. Obviously the bullet is stuck in the bore(grrrrr). My question is has this happened to others, and do we think it was a week primer or has the powder gone bad. I have been using this powder and primers for at least a month on other calibers. No problems!?! Help or suggestions.

[GhostHawk]

I recently took IMR 4895 (New, freshly bought) down to 60% of charge in my Mosin. And then I went a bit farther, and farther yet.

At 20 grains out of possible 55 I quit, that was tame enough.

I've fired at least 20 rounds loaded between 20,25,30 grains of IMR 4895.

I suspect you either got a dud primer, or contaminated powder.

I suspect that one round had moisture or something in it.
Only you can find out for sure. Pull the remaining rounds you loaded at that level.
Dump each case into a small glass dish so you can see if there is any clumping, change of color, etc.

You'll figure it out, just be methodical, take it one step at a time. Double check everything.

[Heavy]

Components working otherwise in other loads, sounds like you got a juicy spider or liquid of some kind down in the case. Knock the boolit out and go far it again.

[tomme boy]

How far did you actually go? What was the load? If the throat on your rifle is extremely long, what happened is normal. You might need a little more neck tension. Or a little crimp to help boost the pressure. I would be starting at 26 grs and go from there.

[303Guy]

The clumping part is the worry. The boolit got pushed into the bore - I'd say that was plenty pressure and flame to light normal powder. The spider (or some bug) in the case sounds feasible. But unless the spider (or bug) got squashed it wouldn't stop the powder from lighting? Anyway, it's an important event which we should all learn from so I do hope you find the cause and let us know.

[PAT303]

In my 8x57 28grns under the Lee Max boolit shot as good as I could shoot it,under an inch at 50.We have had quite a few fizzes over here with ammo,we had CCI 22's that failed to fire or went fizz,Federal 22's went fizz,both cases were bulk purchases for club use and I've had a dozen or more CCI primers that fizzed and didn't fire,the powder had changed color but didn't ignite,all of it happening over the last month or two. Pat

[Stephen Cohen]

I had exactly the same result a month ago in my 458wm and a 400gr jacketed bullet, right down to the clumped powder that showed a slight singed colour. No more reduced Jacked loads for me.

[sthwestvictoria]

I recently found an article here saying that a person can reduce loads using H4895 up to 60% with safety. I used it on a 8 x 57 mauser usining a 200 grain bullet.

The 60% reduced rule is for max loads. Did you reduce the Max by 60% or the min? As TommeeBoy states some more details are required.

[Stephen Cohen]

I used the max data which was 77gr that gave me a 60% load of 46.2gr of H4895 as you guys call it, I loaded 46.5 gr in front of a standard 200 cci large rifle primer and toped with a 400gr Woodleigh jacketed bullet. My personal view is that I should have used a mag primer, and I now use cci 250 primers in all 458 loads even cast, have had no problems since.

[nekshot]

I had a few of those and going to the pistol powders always solved it. This is why I like trailBoss, you can count the flakes even if you don't have a scale. 100 flakes will do fine!

[texassako]

I had that happen once with H4895 and it really was not that reduced a load since it was a standard listed load in an improved case. It formed a fused clump of brown powder that did not even get the bullet into the lands hard enough to engrave. It was a pain to pick it out of the case.

[Larry Gibson]

Cast or jacketed 200 gr bullet in that 8x57?

What was the actual charge of 4895?

Larry Gibson

[karlrudin]

From what y'all are describing, my reduced loads with this powder are over. Texassako, Stephen Cohen had the same problem as I. My load was this from the other posts, 1st reloaded brass, no trim, CCI 200 primer, H4895-30 grains(which is 67% from the 45 grains Maximum that was listed)so yes I was more than good on the powder reduction. I was a 197 grain FMJ-BT "j" bullet. The bullet was seated to the crimping cannular which means it had room to jump. The bullet in the bore just past the end of the breach with good rifling marks on it. I think this load either needs a tuft of Dacron or the powder could have gotten "something" in it. I will be breaking down the others today. Hopefully with an epiphany.

[tomme boy]

It was definitely a flash over. The powder had its coating burned off. That's why it clumped together. But why it did it. ????? Probably because of a overly long throat.

[karlrudin]

It was definitely a flash over. The powder had its coating burned off. That's why it clumped together. But why it did it. ????? Probably because of a overly long throat.


These j boolits are from German inventory. Had pulled these boolits to put into better looking cases. Their profile reminds me of a Berger VLD. LOOONG FMJ-BT's. As far as the long throat, if that was the case, shouldn't I have had blow back from the case, which I didn't. But it is exactly like you said. Maybe I should have used a Dacron tuft.

[Larry Gibson]

Before using a Dacron "tuft" (if used use it as a filler please and not a wad) I would use a stronger primer such as a CCI 250, WLR or a Fed 215.

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

Make sure to add a little crimp as well.

[MT Chambers]

Hodgdon says that you can use 60% of max loads, so according to my ciphering, if 100 grs. is max. then you can use a load of 60 grains.............but reducing the 100 grain charge by 60% would mean a charge of 40 grains, well under minimum load..........pls. note that this is Canadian math. and US may have different results.

[OKSaddletramp]

While the symptoms reported by the OP indicate other problems, I urge all of you to CAREFULLY reread Hodgdon's notice about reduced loads and H4895. It applies ONLY to shooting cast bullet loads. It states clearly that the start load FOR CAST BULLETS is 60% of the max load listed FOR JACKETED BULLETS. It is almost guarrenteed that reducing a load to 60% using jacketed bullets will result in incomplete burning and a stuck bullet. The clumping and degree of lack of combustion might likely have been the result of a weak primer, in addition to the failure to adhere to load data.

edit: Please also note from Hodgdson's notice, that this data only applies to H4895; IMR and any other powders with that designation are NOT to use that data (per Hodgdson).

[Stephen Cohen]

OKSaddletramp, I have done as you suggested and re visited the Hodgdon site, and found the 60% rule does not only apply to cast, in fact they list several reduced loads using jacketed. I know in my case the problem was cured by doing as Larry Gibson suggested, use a hotter mag primer. I believe as others have said, the problem was a flash over. I have since however, switched to our ADI 2207 or as you guys know it H4198 and shoot cast only now. Regards Stephen.

[karlrudin]

On a calculator type 100, then hit x or multiply key, then type 0.60, then hit the = or equals key. 100 x 0.60 = 60grains

[karlrudin]

While the symptoms reported by the OP indicate other problems, I urge all of you to CAREFULLY reread Hodgdon's notice about reduced loads and H4895. It applies ONLY to shooting cast bullet loads. It states clearly that the start load FOR CAST BULLETS is 60% of the max load listed FOR JACKETED BULLETS. It is almost guarrenteed that reducing a load to 60% using jacketed bullets will result in incomplete burning and a stuck bullet. The clumping and degree of lack of combustion might likely have been the result of a weak primer, in addition to the failure to adhere to load data.

edit: Please also note from Hodgdson's notice, that this data only applies to H4895; IMR and any other powders with that designation are NOT to use that data (per Hodgdson).

This is a DIRECT quote from Hogdon site. "Hodgdon® H4895® REDUCED RIFLE LOADS forYouth Hunting, Informal Target and Plinking
Sample Reduced Loads
Hodgdon Powder Company developed the following reduced loads for use on deer and similarly sized game animals. The
bullets chosen were originally designed for single shot pistols and their lower velocities. These rifle loads have been
developed to closely approximate those pistol velocities, resulting in similar performance on game animals. Thus,
producing loads effective to 200 yards with minimal recoil.
H4895 powder was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. For years
H4895 has been the top choice of cast bullet shooters. For this type of shooting, loads are reduced even more than the
hunting loads listed here. To create this type of target and plinking loads, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895: Refer
to our latest reloading manual or the Reloading Data Center found on this website; take the maximum H4895 charge listed
for any given cartridge and multiply it by 60%. The shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 f/s load, depending on the bullet
weight shown. This works ONLY where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown.
Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed. Loads may be adjusted up or down to achieve best
accuracy. However, DO NOT reduce by more than an additional 10%."

[303Guy]

Hodgdon says that you can use 60% of max loads, so according to my ciphering, if 100 grs. is max. then you can use a load of 60 grains.............but reducing the 100 grain charge by 60% would mean a charge of 40 grains, well under minimum load..........pls. note that this is Canadian math. and US may have different results.Nothing wrong with your math. Reducing something by 60% gives 40% but 60% of something gives 60%. Hodgdon say to multiply the max charge list by 60% which is 60% of the max charge. They say never to reduce that by more than an additional 10%. That is a bit ambiguous. Do they mean an additional 10% of the max or 10% of the 60%? The latter would be 6% of max. That's a 40% difference!

I'm under the impression that the new IMR4895 is the same as H4895. Please correct me here.

[tomme boy]

No it is not the same

[jonk]

I have had clumpy powder and failure to ignite before, including with 4895. Usually with weak primers and no filler.

A clump of dacron or pufflon or psb filling the case always solved it, or as Larry suggested, a hotter primer.

[sthwestvictoria]

I'm under the impression that the new IMR4895 is the same as H4895. Please correct me here.
On the recent podcast interview with Chris Hodgdon, he states they are seperate powders - IMR4895 made in Canada and H4895 made in Australia:
http://www.powerfactorshow.com/2014/07/07/episode-185-interview-with-chris-hodgdon-2014/

[leadman]

I spoke to Hodgdon after there were 2 errors in 2 Handloader magazines concerning the reduction of H4895. It applies only to H4895 to any max listed load that hodgdon has published. Do not use data from any other source. It includes cast and jacketed loads.

I had a load with a different powder do the same thing. Found a very tough piece of corn cob tumbling media in the bottom of the case. I think it had stuck in the flash hole.

[karlrudin]

I have had clumpy powder and failure to ignite before, including with 4895. Usually with weak primers and no filler.

A clump of dacron or pufflon or psb filling the case always solved it, or as Larry suggested, a hotter primer.

I haven't got into using fillers yet. Still new at cast bullet techniques. I'm sure I will get there. Have never used them on J bullets. Guess this would be a candidate. I think the powder was forward to far and the primer didn't have enough to ignite. I had forgot about elevating the muzzle when using so little of powder. "Leadman" suggested that it could have had a piece of tumble media blocking the primer hole. Except I don't tumble cases. That does sound like a candidate also.

[303Guy]

I think of Dacron as a powder positioner rather that as a filler. It takes up so little space and weighs so little. I think the only increase in pressure is due to the position of the powder. It has another benefit and that is it prevents powder spilling into the action should a boolit get left behind on extracting an unfired cartridge.