Lyman 50-90 expander m die crushes cases i am done with lyman!!!

[Buckshot Bowman]

Hello lads,
I bought a Pedersoli 50-90 some months back and finally got all the stuff together to start loading these big howitzer shells. I settled on Lyman for the dies, as I have had good luck with them on my 45-110 and 45-90.

Not so good luck this time. I resized a 100 new starline shells and went on to expand the mouths. Setting up the M die the same as all my other Lyman dies, I ran the die down to the raised shell plate and locked it in place and backed the expander way back fom the die.
My surprise when I ran the first case up through the die I met some resistance but didn't think much of it and started the expander bolt down to meet the case. I lowered the ram to advance the expander only to be greeted with the crushed case mouth seen in photo one.

What the hell? So I backed the expander bolt out completely removing it to inspect it to be sure it hadn't unscrewed, but it was tight on the bolt.
So I ran another case up the die and met the same resistance. I thought it was my press ram needing grease, but out came another crushed case mouth.

I pulled the die and visually checked it then dropped a case into it to find that the case stopped a half inch short of bottoming out in the die. I found that the case was hitting the threaded portion of the die for the expander bolt. So, I thought to myself, Self! it is a half inch short of going in, this must be a 50-70 die.

So off to Lyman it goes for two full weeks and returns with a letter saying it works as designed. Huh? So get on the phone to a real *** named Joe, that could not understand what the deal was, as he did the inspection. I tried to explain to him that this was for a 50-90 and if the die is used per instructions, it will crush the case. I was told to back the die off till it didn't crush cases and use it that way. So I argue that I tried that and is tough to do with a heavy press, and that if you do this you run out of expander stem before you get a decent bell to the mouth. See photo. I tell him that I tried this recommendation already, and it was a fail and that I wanted a 50-90 M die Then he starts getting pissed at me, telling me that Lyman can't make dies to fit all presses and the user needs to make adjustment in their use. I again remind him of the length of the 50-90, and that a 50-70 shell fits this die perfectly so what I got ain't a 50-90. So he tells me basically, tough **** get used to it, as he ain't doing nothing about it.

So here I am, I can get just enough expansion to slip a bullet about a 1/16" into the case but no further without a seater die, as thumb pressure sure won't work, and I have a feeling that I am going to get more crushed or bulged cases using this die.
So do I call someone higher up at Lyman and plead my case and ask them to drill out my die another half inch or is there a machinist online here that could do it at a reasonable price? as is I have a half inch of unsupported case and a just barely opened case mouth now.

The last photo is one expanded case and one not with this die. Care to guess which one is belled?

Anybody else have this kind of problem with the Lyman M die?

Thanks,

Buckshot
Donald Bowman

[Mk42gunner]

So here I am, I can get just enough expansion to slip a bullet about a 1/16" into the case but no further without a seater die, as thumb pressure sure won't work, and I have a feeling that I am going to get more crushed or bulged cases using this die.

So the case is expanded enough to place a bullet prior to using the seating die? this is what the M die is designed to do, not expand the whole neck so you can thumb seat a bullet in a sized case.

I have never ran an M die body (or any reloading die for that matter) down to touch the shell holder and then rammed a case in without checking clearances.

Robert

[EDG]

No that was a bad assumption

Try this
Run the ram up to the top of its travel with a case in it.
Screw the expander up to the top of its travel.
Then screw the die body into the press until the expander touches the case mouth.
Then determine how you want to proceed.
You can screw the die body down a little at a time or screw the expander down a little at at time until the case is expanded properly. There is nothing wrong with the Lyman die. It does not set up like the sizer.
Think before you use the seater too. The seater will also damage your brass if you just screw it down against the shell holder.

>>>Setting up the M die the same as all my other Lyman dies, I ran the die down to the raised shell plate and locked it in place<<<

[Buckshot Bowman]

I have never ran an M die body (or any reloading die for that matter) down to touch the shell holder and then rammed a case in without checking clearances.

Robert[/QUOTE]

Normally I don't either, but after many, many years of using the M die in various Lyman calibers I made an honest assumption that this is a correct die.
And, if you did not read what I wrote, I didn't ram, "I ran" using this as a figure of speech, the the casing up into the die, that and later in my post I wrote that with the expander screwed down into the die body so there isn't any threads left, I can just barely get a bullet to start in the case mouth. Then what do I do if I want to use bullets of different design than the Lyman 515 that I am using right now or size at .513 rather than .512?

I was looking for advice, not criticism of my reloading skills.
Thanks anyway,
DB

[Buckshot Bowman]

Well I either did not explain this well enough in my original post or some of the replies did not read it through So I will try again. and keep in mind I have been reloading for 40 plus years and I know not to run the seater die down as the crimp ring will crush the case

I am including a photo of the 50-90 die in question along with the M dies from the following calibers, 45-60, 45-90, and the 45-110 you will notice the cases are all flush with the bottom of the M die, while the case in the 50-90 die sticks out 1/2" when fully seated in the M die. So to begin with this places the case 1/2" short from the expander plug, when the die is installed in the press to prevent the threads for seater plug inside the M die from making contact with the case mouth. Now, at this point when I screw the expander plug in, it has to screw in all the way down until there are no threads left on the plug to go into the case to expand the mouth, so it comes up short of hitting the #2 expander ring to expand the case mouth. As it is only the step #1 ring is entering the case giving just enough expansion so a bullet will just barely go into the case mouth. If these bullets were sized .513, they would not enter at all.
There is also a photo of the M die instructions, showing that #2 ring, and you will notice the line at the bottom of the instructions that says, "The entire cartridge enters these dies flush to the shell holders" This obviously is not the case in my 50-90 M die. If this was truly a 50-90 M die, the case would be flush to the die not sticking out 1/2"


Thanks,
DB

[EDG]

1. M die bodies are not specific to any cartridge that I know of. What is marked on your die body? You do know if the internal threads at the top are smaller than the case body necessitating a different set up for the fatter 50-90?
2. Have you compared the length of of the aluminum expander stem with your other long expander dies. There are several lengths. You might try a longer stem in your set up if it is set up with a short stem. The long stems are commonly used with the short pistol rounds. In your photo of the Lyman die set up the long stem is shown in the straight wall illustration at the left. I have ran into the issue of the expander stem being too short with my M dies so I swap the stem from my .357 die into a rifle die body when required.

3. There is a possibility that Lyman goofed up the design drawing for your 50-90 die body and they do not know that it is causing problems. Or Lyman made a manufacturing mistake on your die body.

4. Their technician might benefit from your photo or seeing the problem on Skype.

[Twstanley]

You probably have a mis marked 50-70 - I would try either exchanging it or use it raise .5 inch in your press.

[Fishman]

Based on your description, if you had a 50-70 case, the expander still wouldn't reach deep enough into the case to correctly expand the case mouth. I have only purchased the m-dies seperately, and they come in long and short body lengths. I pick the body length most appropriate to the cartridge I'm belling, install the correct expansion plug, and screw the body in to a depth that allows the expansion plug to do its work. Since I have never loaded 50 caliber ammo, I am unsure whether a specific die body is required for them, so forgive me if this is the case. The die body in your picture does not appear to be unique, so hopefully this information will help.

In this situation, it appears that the distance between the top of the die and the end of the threading is too long to allow the expansion plug to work. The distance between the base of the die and the start of the threads is really inconsequential to the operation you want to perform. I would suggest trying a "short" die body and install your expansion plug in it. If you load 30-30 for example, it uses the short body die. This will at least allow you to get loading until you hash out the problem with Lyman. In your picture of the 4 dies, the one on the right looks like it would be a good candidate for this test. as it appears to be the short die body.

[gandydancer]

I have dealt with Lyman many times in fifty years I used to live two miles from them in middletown ct and they always have been the best. the last few years not so much. the suits are running them now and customer service SUCKS. so sorry about your troubles. GD

[Larry Gibson]

.

So the case is expanded enough to place a bullet prior to using the seating die? this is what the M die is designed to do, not expand the whole neck so you can thumb seat a bullet in a sized case.

I have never ran an M die body (or any reloading die for that matter) down to touch the shell holder and then rammed a case in without checking clearances.

Robert

I agree with Robert. That your die allows a bullet to be seated is probably within Lyman's spec's. As with most manufacturers of such equipment many things are a "one size fits all" and if we want something specific we many times must modify the equipment ourselves.

Simple solution is the check the die into a lathe and simply remove 1/4" from the top of the die. That will allow the "expander bolt" to go in farther.

Or; chuck the die body in the lathe with bottom out and use a 9/16 or 19/32 (which ever fits inside the die up to the threads) drill to drill the threads our 1/2".

Larry Gibson

[EDG]

I have 3 olders M die bodies from the 1970s.

None of them have a large enough ID to accept a 50-90 case.

Your die body must be unique to the 50-90 and it has a manufacturing error or is a 50-70 die.

The only time I had a problem with a Lyman die I sent it back because the decapping pin was way off center.
They sent me a new die.

[shooter93]

If I'm reading this correctly then I think I've had a similar problem time to time. Not damaging the case but rather the stem not going low enough before it runs out of threads. When it happens I switch the expander shaft into an m-die short body and that generally works well. If it's already in a short body then it need shortened or like Larry said take it off the top.

[ohland]

When it happens I switch the expander shaft into an m-die short body

Do you have the "long" M-2 body? The short body is the M-1 die. Czech your die body, look at the plug stem, from your pix that puppy is almost bottomed out. Czech the below link for some M-die dimensions.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?243728-Lyman-M-die-Expanding-plug-part-numbers&highlight=expander

Preytell, does the stem or plug have a number on it? What is it? You may see rifle expanders with an "R" in the title.

Lyman M die bodies M1 on left, M2 on right. The threaded portion of the dies are the same

M1 - OAL 2.872, knurl .931 (C.F.Plinker - 2-7/8" long for cases 1.3" to 2.25")
M2 - OAL 3.347, knurl 1.380 (CFP - 3.34" long for cases @ 2.0" to 2.95" long)

CFP - Either works from 2 to 2.25 inches . Example: .308, 30-30, and 303 Savage.