replicating store bought ammo

[unclebill]

i recently went crazy and bought a box of
Fiocchi Exacta Ammunition 223 Remington 69 Grain Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point

it was the most accurate pre rolled centerfire i have EVER seen (it better be for a buck a pop)
anyway
they use the matchkings and i just got 100 of them.
i have varget and i am reusing the fire formed fiocci brass.
the MIDWAY website says it goes 2735fps out of a 24 inch barrel 1-12 twist
i want the same as that kickass store bought ammo.
i dont have a chrono
so i am flying by the seat of my pants.
but with plenty of online research and data from my fellow enthusiasts
i should be able to get close
BTW
my barrel is 1-8 16.5 inches of MGM goodness

[unclebill]

if i can get the same (or real close)velocity. then i could tinker with distance to lands and i bet that would dramatically tighten up groups that are already pretty good.

[John Boy]

i dont have a chronoLooks like you might want invest in the purchase of a chronograph. One of the major tools for load development in addition to a good set of reference manuals. Presume you don't have these either

[unclebill]

i only have five bound manuals
and the internet


i dont have any money
newlyweds you see....
i aint complainin but............
even without a chrono
i can get real close to the ballpark of the factory load.

[unclebill]

SIERRA 5TH EDITION Varget 19.9 -2600fps 21.2-2700fps 22.5-2800fps 23.8-2900fps 25.1 3000fps MAX-26.4-3100fps

[Larry Gibson]

I use 25.5 gr Varget under the Sierra 69 gr MK in LC cases with a Rem 7 1/2 primer in my Colt Match with 9" twist 20" barrel. With a 20 shot test at 200 yards (Benched but with issue sights) velocity was 2745 fps at 15". The SD was 20 and the ES was 84 fps. Accuracy was right at 1.1 moa for the 20 shots. The measured psi(M43) of that load was 52,300. That was back in the day when I could still focus on an AR front sight...........

Larry Gibson

[unclebill]

Looks like you might want invest in the purchase of a chronograph. One of the major tools for load development in addition to a good set of reference manuals. Presume you don't have these either
you are kinda snotty arent you?

[unclebill]

I use 25.5 gr Varget under the Sierra 69 gr MK in LC cases with a Rem 7 1/2 primer in my Colt Match with 9" twist 20" barrel. With a 20 shot test at 200 yards (Benched but with issue sights) velocity was 2745 fps at 15". The SD was 20 and the ES was 84 fps. Accuracy was right at 1.1 moa for the 20 shots. The measured psi(M43) of that load was 52,300. That was back in the day when I could still focus on an AR front sight...........

Larry Gibson
thank you for the good info!

[HATCH]

Get a chrony
without it your just wasting time.
kinda like a cop pacing you with a broken speedo.
he may know your spending but can't say how fast cause he has no point of reference.

[Mk42gunner]

The advertised velocity, length and twist of the test barrel are all different than what you will see from your MGM. That is not saying you can't get there from here, you just need to go a different route.

Granted a chronograph can tell you interesting info, but it isn't absolutely necessary. To replicate the desired load, you would have had to chrono some of the original ammo, or buy another box to test. I kind of doubt that Fiocchi used canister grade Varget anyway.

What you can do is good old load workups. Start low and test as you go up. There are an infinite number of variables; but remember to only change one thing at a time. Sierra Match Kings have a well deserved reputation for accuracy, there is no reason you can't make a load to match the factory offering, even if the only thing that is the same is the projectile.

Good luck,

Robert

What you can do is

[unclebill]

of course i am never completely happy but
i cant help thinking.
if i can get 1/2MOA with store bought ammo
can i get 1/3 or even 1/4 MOA with my loads?
this match grade machine barrel is one heluva shooter.


well...
a boy can dream. ;)
i have had stellar results with matchkings and varget in the past. so i am hopeful
i loaded some ammo for ladder testing and will of course report my findings.

[Geraldo]

the MIDWAY website says it goes 2735fps out of a 24 inch barrel 1-12 twist

my barrel is 1-8 16.5 inches of MGM goodness

What the Midway site doesn't tell you is that these bullets might keyhole out of a 1:12" barrel. You're having great success with them because of your faster twist.

As for a chrono, you don't really know how fast the factory stuff was going, so you have no velocity goal to shoot for anyway. Just do what we all did in the Pleistocene Pre-Chrono Era and start low and work up until you get the group you want and enjoy.

[Tackleberry41]

You really need a chrony. Midway says 2735FPS out of a 24in barrel and 1-12 twist. You already have 2 variables 7.5in less barrel, and 1-8 twist. Also what were the temp, and pressure at the location they tested the load at?

Even whats in a book doesnt always mean anything. I was loading some 223, according to the book it might say is 2876fps with a particular bullet and powder charge, but then I run it over my chrony and its slower, while another powder the book says will give less velocity, than the previous load, but is higher.

The other issue is you never know what a particular bullet will do in a rifle, one rifle may love those 69gr match kings, another 223 may not like them at all. I had 2 300 win mags, a ruger #1 and a savage 116, a great load in one was not very good in the other and vice versa.

You want to do any serious load development, you need a chrony. Or just load by the book and see how they work.

[crowbuster]

not sure your location unclebill but I would be happy to loan you my chrony if you are close.

[HATCH]

I have worked up over a dozen calibers.
The chrony is a very valuable tool in load development.
If you are shooting for accuracy without a bench rest who is to say you are having a good day or a bad day??
If you have a bench rest vice (basically locking the rifle down so not doesn't move) unless you do all your testing the same day who is to say you remounted the rifle in the exact same setup??
Over the years we have determined that we deal strictly with velocity and standard deviation.
Those two is all you need to deal with

[rosewood]

A chrony helps a lot and you will find a lot of published velocities are not what you get. Also, much of the data out there does not specify the barrel brand or length used, so it is a best guess. I have had where I used the exact same setup, barrel, powder etc as the published data and never get close to what they list. But to duplicate the load, you will have to chrony that load in your gun and chrony your hand loads and get them close. As someone else said, if you do it on a different day, your results may not be the same. I can say that the biggest help I had on my 20" Colt Hbar 1:7 was finding someone that had the exact same gun as me and they had already found a working combo. Had someone not told me to try a 75 grain bullet in it with RL15, I would still be hunting for the ideal load with 55 grains. That 1:7 won't shoot 55gr worth a darn. But it appears you have already found the ideal bullet, now you just need to tune your powder which you don't need a chrony for. Just start on the lower end and work the load up until you find an accurate node.

If you really want to duplicate, you can chrony the load, pull a bullet and weigh the powder. Then compare to published data and/or your loads to see what powder with the same weight gives you that speed with that bullet to get close to the burn rate powder they are using. You can also ID whether it is stick or ball to help narrow down the search. As someone else mentioned, factory loaded rounds may not use powder you can buy off the shelf, but I am sure you can find one close. All that being said, probably easier and cheaper to just work a load up with that bullet. :)

Rosewood

[unclebill]

not sure your location unclebill but I would be happy to loan you my chrony if you are close.
i am in north platte nebraska but thank you for the kind offer


I have worked up over a dozen calibers.
The chrony is a very valuable tool in load development.
If you are shooting for accuracy without a bench rest who is to say you are having a good day or a bad day??
If you have a bench rest vice (basically locking the rifle down so not doesn't move) unless you do all your testing the same day who is to say you remounted the rifle in the exact same setup??
Over the years we have determined that we deal strictly with velocity and standard deviation.
Those two is all you need to deal with
i have a 3 inch wide delrin pillar bedded forend and a delrin topped mechanical benchrest
as well as a lead shot filled rear bag that i use for load development.
but your advice is solid.
thank you

[HATCH]

I use this Chrony
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/852429/competition-electronics-prochrono-digital-chronograph

Its $120. I am sure you can find it cheaper.
I also got the USB computer hookup kit as well. It makes doing load testing easy by one person.
The computer records the shots and you can save it to a file.

Please don't get me wrong in my responses.
You can work up a load that duplicates the accuracy of a factory load without a chronograh.
This can be done, it may take longer then with a chrony but it can be done.

Just understand that you may find a load that is just as accurate as factory but may be significantly slower or faster then the factory load due to variables that come into play when dealing with reloading.
Such variables are Case manufacturer, Primer manufacturer, bullet weight, bullet coefficient, powder burn rate, and even lot #'s come into play.
Generally speaking for me once I work up a load I don't make changes with I change lot #'s but then again I don't normally load a lot of rifles so I don't have to worry about it much.
Keep in mind that also I buy everything in large quanity so a lot may be 8lbs of powder and 5K primers or even larger amounts if bought all at the same time.

Good luck in your quest.

[unclebill]

HATCH
yes i try to buy quantities myself.
about 2 presidents ago i bought 32lbs each of russian unique, varget and AA#7
still shooting it

[Jeffrey]

To load for accuracy, get a primer pocket reamer (squares inside face of primer pocket) and a flash hole deburring tool. A cartridge case needs work by these tools only once in its life. Their use improves primer ignition and flame consistency, contributing to more accurate ammo.

[unclebill]

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/10622848_997438216948571_7178135795573855181_n_zps cf71458e.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/billhedges/media/10622848_997438216948571_7178135795573855181_n_zps cf71458e.jpg.html)


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/10600635_997437746948618_3862888360739521086_n_zps 99247873.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/billhedges/media/10600635_997437746948618_3862888360739521086_n_zps 99247873.jpg.html)


contender groups best 2 of 5 yesterday

[unclebill]

i haven't had time to get serious with load development but i have tried about 8 recipes so far. . i know it wants to shoot

[MT Chambers]

Uncle Bill: IMHO...you don't know the bullet maker, you don't know the brass maker, you don't know the powder used, or the primer, so from an accuracy standpoint you can't match that load, you'll have to experiment and you'll prolly find a better load.

[unclebill]

Uncle Bill: IMHO...you don't know the bullet maker, you don't know the brass maker, you don't know the powder used, or the primer, so from an accuracy standpoint you can't match that load, you'll have to experiment and you'll prolly find a better load.
i DO know the bullet and case makers as well as the velocity

[unclebill]

update
my darling wife bought me a chrono for xmas
that factory ammo averages 2600fps
(out of my tender)
so i am hot on the trail

[Artful]

A good wife indeed - congrat's on your early Xmas present

[unclebill]

so now i know the bullet,cases,primers and velocity

[Bigslug]

i only have five bound manuals and the internet i dont have any money
newlyweds you see....


Should have done your gift registry with Midway USA.:kidding:

Duplicating a stated factory velocity spec hoping it groups the same is a fairly long shot. What a good chronograph will let you do is not only match the factory load for velocity, but give you data on how much variation from shot to shot any load is tossing at you. It's a piece of gear that in the long run will save you a lot in terms of components and time. If she REALLY loves you, she'll understand.:mrgreen: