My 1911 is like a dog that won't hunt

[Animal]

Hey folks, I've been working on and off for about 6 months trying to solve some feeding issues with my RIA .45 1911 Govt. Full size. I spoke a lot with 35Remington, but I have not been able to get in touch with him.

Currently, I'm pretty lucky to make it through 3 (7rnd) colt mags without a single failure. I have 3 colt mags with Wolff Xtra power springs and 3 colt mags with standard colt springs. All 6 mags are new, to include their springs.

Today I took my 1911 back down to the range after taking a short break from it. I started out with my 2 standard loads: Lee 452-228-1r with 5.1 gr Red Dot, WLP primer, starline cases, C.O.A.L 1.245 (which passes my plunk test). My next load is the Lyman 452374 seated to 1.257 over 4.7gr of Red Dot, starline cases and WLP primers. Both boolits are tumble lubed and sized to .452.

I do realize that both rounds are on the higher end of the charge. The purpose of these 2 loads is to simulate traditional 230gr Ball.

My initial set up today consisted of a 16lb Kimber recoil spring, 26lb mainspring, and EGW oversized firing pin stop. The FPS is a custom, tight fit with a squared bottom. The hammer strikes flat against the fps above and below the firing pin. The mags that I started out with were the Colt mags with the Wolff springs.

After the 4th mag, rounds began jumping ahead of the extractor. Oddly, it was always the 6th round when this failure would occur. My mags are numbered, so I sat the offender to the side and worked with the other 2. Again, same problem would occur, the 6 round would get ahead of the extractor on the other two.

I set all three of the Wolf sprung Colts to the side and grabbed my 3 standard spring Colt mags. Again, same problem. The 6th round on these would get ahead of the extractor.

So I changed my mainspring back to the 23lb. I started over with my Wolff sprung Colts and began getting the same issue with round number 6. I then grabbed my Colt sprung Colt mags to see if they liked working along with my 23lb mainspring... nope, second verse was same as the first.

Okay, now I'm running low on test ammo but I've got to find something that looks promising. So, I threw a Wilson Combat shock buff into the mix, picked up my Wolff sprung Colts and fired up a storm... that is, until round number 6 said "NO!". No problem, we'll see how the 23lb mainspring, shock buff and the good ole Colt sprung Colts get along. Yup, you guessed it. My 1911 hates round 6 with a bloody passion.

Alright, so now I'm looking at the last trick up my sleeve... an 18lb Recoil spring. Then, I look at my ammo bag. At that point I didn't have enough ammo left to finish off one mag. So, instead of loading my new recoil spring I decided to verify extractor operation. I'd insert the mag, chamber a round, remove the mag and fire. I did this 5 times. All 5 rounds flawlessly fired and ejected the spent case without a magazine in the mag well. Previously, I had performed the test with the slide removed and a round placed against the breach and extractor with passing results.

Something is seriously wrong with my set-up. I let a guy test out my 1911 at a range in town because he was interested in purchasing one. He used my gun and my Wolff sprung Colts along with j-word 230gr ball ammo. He had a similar problem. I don't know if it was round 6 or not, but it was a failure out of 1 magazine.

I thought that maybe my 2 handed grip is touching something it wasn't supposed to touch. I tried very hard to notate the position of my hands once a failure would occur.

I have fired both rapidly as quick as my fingers will allow and as slow and steady as possible. The failure doesn't seem biased toward any particular method.

When I got this gun at the end of last fall, I began using the two loads that I mentioned above. The only other thing that I have fired in it was Armscor ball ammo. I only fired 100 rounds and that was for break-in purposes. No failure occurred during break-in.

The Lee boolit was the first load that I started off with. Load development went perfectly. After settling on 5.1gr of Red Dot, I made 100 rounds for further testing. The 100 rounds cycled flawlessly. After that day, I have not been able to get the gun to feed reliably.
My response to this problem was to purchase the Lyman 452374. I felt since this mold was an accurate depiction of what a ball type round would contain, I thought it might fix the feeding problem. For all practical purposes it doesn't make a tad bit of a difference.

Recently, I decided to take a break from the 1911. I purchased a Bulldog .44 special and have spend my free time over the last month catering to its taste. However, I can't stand the thought of a malfunction in any of my guns so I got back to work on testing out my 1911 this morning.

For what it's worth, I have had great success with the 1911 under a very lightly loaded round. No failures were present during a 100 round test of 4.0gr of Red Dot. However, 4.0 is only good enough to cycle the weapon. It is too light for Ball Ammo.

I have done some research and have found that the original RIA springs were odd weights. 18lb Recoil spring and 18lb Mainspring. The original FPS has a very pronounced radius on the bottom and the hammer strikes are very high. However, it cycled flawlessly under this condition. I am considering returning it to the original spring weights and FPS, only with higher quality springs. I've heard that a lot of folks state that the original springs in the RIA are "****" because they don't last long. Perhaps the original spring weights were the key, unfortunately they just wore out to quickly.

I suppose I'm just hoping that someone who has gone through the same ordeal can offer up some advice. Thanks folks

[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b: At least my new Bull Dog seems to like me :razz:

[Moonie]

Why the squared bottom FPS, I know they slow down the unlock quite a bit. Have you tried with a standard ramped one?

We have 3 RIA's in the family, 2 full size and 1 compact, the full size have no feeding issues at all and are stock. The compact has issues occasionally.

[Animal]

The squared bottom contacts the hammer much lower. This is comparable to opening a door by pushing on the side where the hinges are vs. pushing on the side where the knob is.

The additional resistance is intended provide a more controlled cycle by pushing the hammer back in one smooth operation vs. pushing the hammer from the top, then the bottom.

The concept is a part of the original 1911 design but has been altered over the years because it is more difficult to rack the slide back with a squared bottom than with a good amount of radius.

I was hoping that this original style FPS would ease the rearward impact of the slide, thus helping to prevent rounds jarring loose from the magazine. Did not work so well, however.

[Larry Gibson]

When you say; "rounds began jumping ahead of the extractor" what exactly happens or doesn't happen?

Larry Gibson

[Animal]

Larry, 2 things usually happen:
1. (more common today) the 6th round would rest with the nose of the boolit pointing down into the chamber and the slide hung up on the case head, which is pointing upward with the extractor pressed against the head stamp in the 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock position as if you are looking at the headstamp. The round wouldn't be horizontal at all.
2. (almost as common) the round would be completely chambered but the slide won't complete its travel to full battery because the extractor is directly behind the rim, as opposed to gripping the rim. The slide would be so close to battery that I don't realize it is in battery until I pull the trigger. Basically, a pushfeed would solve that issue if the extractor was tuned for that situation.

[sundog]

Have you replaced the springs on all your mags? Are they in all the same and backwards?

Just askin'.

[Animal]

Have you replaced the springs on all your mags? Are they in all the same and backwards?

Just askin'.

Yes, before I started my test this morning I cleaned and inspected my mags. Since I'm not experienced with bottom feeders, I looked up some info online just to ensure that my magazine springs were installed correctly.

All 6 springs are new. The 3 standard colts, along with their springs probably have less than 100 rounds each. The 3 Wolffs probably have less than 150 each. The magazines are pretty fresh.

[seagiant]

Hi,
The squared bottom EGW FPS was developed for the 10mm 1911 to SLOW the recoil time on the 1911 slide travel for the more powerful 10mm round! This is what I remember. I see no reason for it on a 45 ACP? You might want to go to a base line with the pistol as far as springs and parts go and try it again.

The RIA pistols have a VERY good rep at working right out of the box. Just saying?

[HangFireW8]

Animal,

Sometimes 1911 feed problems are extraction/ejection problems in disguise. We can try to prove or eliminate that.

1. Do you find a case with an odd crunch to it that corresponds to the jam (I guess 5th in this case)?

2. How is your extractor tension? Is it enough to hold a round in place? Is it too much to snap over a rim if dropped on an almost-chambered round?

3. Where do your empties go, all in the same place? Do some spin in place just over the gun and then fall straight down?

Now take a look at your extractor. Is it oversized with a long nose? Does it leave a mark in the brass body from chambering?

[Animal]

Hi,
The squared bottom EGW FPS was developed for the 10mm 1911 to SLOW the recoil time on the 1911 slide travel for the more powerful 10mm round! This is what I remember. I see no reason for it on a 45 ACP? You might want to go to a base line with the pistol as far as springs and parts go and try it again.

The RIA pistols have a VERY good rep at working right out of the box. Just saying?

The baseline approach is probably best, as you state. I did a lot of research and found that the mainspring my gun should have come with is a 20lb and the recoil should have been an 18lb.

Originally when I suspected I had weakened springs, I changed to the traditional 16lb recoil and 23lb main. This might have been a mistake on my part. I just assumed this was the normal tuning for a full size 1911 from any manufacturer.

Fortunately I have an 18lb spring to use, but not 20 mainspring. I have a an 18, 19 and a 21. I'll work with those before I buy a 20.

As far as the square bottom, I'm basically regurgitating information. I haven't fact checked it so I won't assume anything.

[Animal]

Animal,

Sometimes 1911 feed problems are extraction/ejection problems in disguise. We can try to prove or eliminate that.

1. Do you find a case with an odd crunch to it that corresponds to the jam (I guess 5th in this case)?

2. How is your extractor tension? Is it enough to hold a round in place? Is it too much to snap over a rim if dropped on an almost-chambered round?

3. Where do your empties go, all in the same place? Do some spin in place just over the gun and then fall straight down?

Now take a look at your extractor. Is it oversized with a long nose? Does it leave a mark in the brass body from chambering?

1. I inspected all my round before getting started this morning. All the case heads seem to be in good condition. I only checked them by running my fingernail across them in hopes of finding an offender. I verified that all primers were seated properly, all rounds passed the plunk test and that none had damaged case heads.
2. The extractor seems to pass all testing with the slide removed, using both dummy rounds and empty cases. With the magazine removed, a live round will fire and eject its case properly.
3. Depending on the configuration that I used, I had piles of brass in the 3, 4 and 5 o'clock position. I'd be lying to you if I tried to say which configuration caused what.

I have't seen enough extractors to determine if mine is oversized, but it does appear to be normal.

Thanks

[scattershot]

Right or not, I always suspect custom parts,when a gremlin like this raises its ugly head. Have you tried reinstalling the original FPS? What effect did it have?

[Dan Cash]

Put the pistol back the way it was when it worked and forget about the after market stuff. I have 5 big 1911s and a baby gun, Colts and Kimbers. They all work well. Used to have a Norinco and after I buffed the ridges out of the feed ramp, it worked flawlessly. Once upon a time, it seemed that those heavy recoil springs weere needed to "protect" the pistol but they do just the oposite; batter and induce malfunction.

[cwheel]

I'd suspect the extractor doesn't have the proper tension, ( 3 1/2 - 4 lbs. of pressure ) or has to much, and the nose of the extractor could need some stoning ( relief ) and adjustment. Hard to describe the proper fit of a extractor in a post, but if you can find a friend that has the book called " The Colt 45 Automatic, a Shop manual " If you own a 1911, this book is a great reference manual and solves most problems. Jerry Kuhnhausen did a great job writing this one. Making a pile of changes in a pistol before giving one or two of them a chance to prove reliable often can compound problems for the beginner. Book is available from Midway. While waiting for the book I'd load up 14 rounds to cycle through the action with bullet and case only, no powder or primer.
Chris

[C. Latch]

Both of my 1911s have EGW FPSs.

I'd rip them out in a heartbeat if they seemed to be contributing to a feeding problem. They're not needed with plinking or even ball ammo. Mine are in there for +p loads.


FWIW I recently did a long thread here where I had a similar problem, but mine was only with lighter SWC ammo. 230's of most any sort feed fine for me. 200 SWCs fed fine but displayed the same sort of 'extractor jump' that you describe. I had to swithc to tapered-lip USGI surplus magazines for use with my SWCs.


Also, throw those shok-buffs away.

[wv109323]

I would try a magazine that has the "tall" follower. The follower will not rotate within the magazine allowing the nose of the round to nosedive. Make up some dummy rounds. Make sure that there is not a problem with the magazine follower and it's relationship to the slide stop as the sixth round is being fed..
An old army trick was to put a flat piece of metal between the magazine follower and the magazine spring. The plate extended about half the length of the follower and was located in the front of the magazine. This insured that the magazine spring was pushing up against the front half of the follower preventing nose dive.

[tomme boy]

The flat bottom FPS was the original design. It was changed to the beveled as the Mounted cavalry could not rack the slide very well. I had a lot of these same problems with my Citadel. It came out of it after about 1K rounds.

[Rick459]

If you are going to the EGW over sized FP stop using.45acp loads you need to radius the bottom edge no more than a 1/32nd of an inch wide. With the square edge it is throwing the timing off.
Rick

[35remington]

The firing pin stop has nothing to do with the rounds misfeeding, as Animal's gun did this before it was installed. Those that think the small radius stop causes this issue really don't know how 1911's work. It also does this with all brands of magazines, so it's not the magazines. If the round is ahead of the extractor when the gun jams, the round never got there. It's not a nosediving problem as the round is not nosediving.

It's not an extractor tension problem as extractor tension doesn't have anything to do with the rim jumping ahead of it.

Mr. Cash, the pistol had substandard springs in it as received. Putting it back the way it was is not an option as the original springs are not up to par.

The problem he is describing is an inertial issue. The magazine allows the round to pop up from slide/frame impact long before the breechface is ready to receive them. A big, big clue is that the problem is nonexistent with low velocity/low impact loadings of the same bullet. This rules out extractor tension, magazine follower shape, and anything else that has nothing to do with slide/frame impact or the ability of the rim to slide under the extractor in feeding.

Seagiant, the EGW stop was not designed for the 10mm. Rather, it is square so the user may customize the radius to his particular needs. A small radius stop is a traditional cure for impact issues of this sort and is quite appropriate on a 45 ACP. As was mentioned earlier, the original 1911's until the twenties all came with a small radius stop.

Rick, Animal did not leave the edge square.

Animal, as far as I know my PM thing is working but I haven't checked it in a while. It didn't show new messages.

[35remington]

Whoops! Sorry, Animal! My inbox got full and I hadn't checked it in awhile! My bad! It's working now.

[35remington]

What I'm interested now is going to be hard to relate.....but it's time to check some dimensions that may have something to do with it.

[DrCaveman]

Just for kicks ill throw this out there

Too much magazine lube, not enough slide grease? Mags are kicking up the round quick, slide is not getting back in time. Good lucas red or similar on slide rails is good stuff

Too much power in mag springs. Just go buy some cheapo no-name $8 mag, see how it works as stock. It was probably made for 230 ball

---
Thats all i got, i hope it might be helpful. Good luck. If you trade the gun out, the next will be better

[Forrest r]

Interesting!!!

You're having inertia/inertial feed issues & you've changed everything you possibly could to change the function of the slide when these types of issues are mag related.

[Animal]

Just for kicks ill throw this out there

Too much magazine lube, not enough slide grease? Mags are kicking up the round quick, slide is not getting back in time. Good lucas red or similar on slide rails is good stuff

Too much power in mag springs. Just go buy some cheapo no-name $8 mag, see how it works as stock. It was probably made for 230 ball

---
Thats all i got, i hope it might be helpful. Good luck. If you trade the gun out, the next will be better

Doc, this was something I addressed as well. I've experimented with the amount of lube. The only thing I haven't changed is lube-type, Miltec1. I've gone from just enough to allow a sheen on the surface to sloppy.

[Animal]

Interesting!!!

You're having inertia/inertial feed issues & you've changed everything you possibly could to change the function of the slide when these types of issues are mag related.

I addressed mag relation first. I've tried Metalform, ACT, Wilson Combat, counterfit colt styles and Colt. I probably should have mentioned that. If it's a mag issue, I'll have enough money tied up in magazines to purchase a second gun. Not to mention experimenting with springs from Wolff.

And yes, you are right that a magazine issue is present. There doesn't seem to be a magazine combination I've tried that is able to retain the rounds. The mag issue appears to be a symptom, not the cause. Excessive impact can cause rounds to become dislodged, at least in the multiple magazines I've tried. So yes, I addressed the slide. The aim was to tame impact. If the rounds would stay in place during impact in these magazines with the work I've done on the slide, then the ailment is cured and the symptom (mag issues) go away.

So far, I've been more satisfied with the Colt mags than all the others listed. Since this improved the symptom but did not cure it, it is probably safe to say the symptom is only a part of the larger problem. That problem, without being a competent gunsmith appears to be caused by inertia. This could be an incorrect approach, but seems to be the best approach at the moment based on speaking with people who have offered their years of experience in these matters and performing my own research.

[C. Latch]

I don't think anyone here thinks a firing pin stop impacts feeding issues. That wasn't the point. The point was the need to lose the dogmatic mindset about 'putting things the way that ought to be'.

Have you tried a usgi mag with tapered lips? They'll hold on to the round longer than any other type. Not saying you should have to do that, just saying it might mask your problem.

[C. Latch]

The type with the red bullets: http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/clatch/Mobile%20Uploads/0D16EEAF-8548-4CBD-B1E6-90F6DAE0906E_zpsevnrdodi.jpg (http://s78.photobucket.com/user/clatch/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0D16EEAF-8548-4CBD-B1E6-90F6DAE0906E_zpsevnrdodi.jpg.html)

[Animal]

I don't think anyone here thinks a firing pin stop impacts feeding issues. That wasn't the point. The point was the need to lose the dogmatic mindset about 'putting things the way that ought to be'.

Have you tried a usgi mag with tapered lips? They'll hold on to the round longer than any other type. Not saying you should have to do that, just saying it might mask your problem.

If the USGI is the style with the original tapered lip design, then no I have not. I'd very much like to though. Do you have a link?

[Geraldo]

If I understand this correctly, the first five rounds of just about any ammo out of any magazine feed and function fine, but at #6 you start having problems. Yes?

[Animal]

If I understand this correctly, the first five rounds of just about any ammo out of any magazine feed and function fine, but at #6 you start having problems. Yes?

The majority of time, yes. Yesterday during 183 rounds, if a failure was going to happen it would only happen on 6.

[C. Latch]

If the USGI is the style with the original tapered lip design, then no I have not. I'd very much like to though. Do you have a link?

Don't have a link but I will see if I can scrounge up a spare this weekend. Once upon a time I had a pretty nice pile of them. They're in storage except for the two I am using for my SWCs now. I'll see if I can dig out one this weekend. I have very little in them and if I can find one I'll send it to you. If it works, keep it; if not, send it back. Will message you after Saturday.

[Animal]

C. Latch, that would be great!

[youngmman]

Let me offer two ideas. On the feeding problem. I have a loaded Springfield I bought used several years ago which had two problems, one double feeding which was corrected by adjusting the extractor tension to about 3.5lbs as recommended in the shop manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen. The second was a failure to feed on the last or second to last round with most any magazine I tried until I tried an original military issue mag with the standard follower which had the dimple in its center. This holds the round up for good feeding. This problem never again came up when using these mags with the dimple in the middle of the follower.

The Ed Brown 8pack has this type follower so I bought an obscene number of them and have not had the problem since. FYI, the extractor tension was around 1lb which wouldn't let it hold the fired case so it could be ejected and the mags that didn't work were, Springfield, the "famous" Wilson and several other brands. Any which had the dimpled follower (steel) worked fine.

I hope this helps and good luck.

[Forrest r]

Early release mag lips don't help.

Heavier springs compound the problem.

Why the 6th round:
Simply put, it's a combination of friction of the mag lips & tension of the mag spring. By the 6th round there isn't enough force/pressure/resistance of the round to hold it in place. The inertia of the firearms recoil moves the firearm (mag included) rearward. The mag isn't holding the round tight enough, hence the firearm/mag moves & the bullet doesn't. That's why it doesn't do it with lite/target loads, not enough recoil/inertia.

Common causes:
Oil in mag, on mag lips or too much oil on slide that get onto the mag lips that hold the bullet (friction). Keep all oil/grease out of the mag and mag lips. Allot of new 1911 owners grease ever orifice of their "new toy" with a grease gun. A buddy of mine got a new 1911 & greased the heck out of the bottom of the whole slide (he didn't want it to wear). Needless to say it didn't take long to get on the insides of the mag lips. After that it was all down hill.

Mag lips too wide for the ammo. You might have a set of reloading dies that are sizing your brass too small (think small base dies for rifles). Try bending/tuning 1 of your mag's lips. You want the rounds held in the mag tight.

[35remington]

Animal has known for some time it's an inertial issue, so that doesn't need to be rehashed. The magazines already have dimples on them. If straight lip magazines with late release jam this way, the GI's likely won't help as the straight lip magazines actually provide somewhat more frictional resistance to round movement than tapered if well sprung....but at this point anything is worth a try.

The GI Checkmate magazines release just the barest hair later than the hybrids used here. The difference isn't much. The defined release and commercial magazines cannot be tuned due to the controlled release bend in the feed lilps. Only GI magazines are truly tunable.

The magazines are indeed a symptom rather than the cause as every magazine enhancement to improve retention has been applied. The heavier mag springs are a retention enhancement.

[youngmman]

Attached is a lengthy but complete analysis of most available styles of 1911 magazines, enjoy.

[C. Latch]

Animal, my thread here is long and rambling, but you might find it worth your while to read, especially post #36 and #37:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?247549-Has-anyone-ever-machined-the-bevel-base-off-a-Lee-6-cavity-452-200-SWC/page2

[C. Latch]

Attached is a lengthy but complete analysis of most available styles of 1911 magazines, enjoy.

Thank you for posting that. I just read the whole thing and suspect that I will do so again.

[Ford SD]

It might not help but check out (extractor tuning)
ht tp://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm

I have found the front bevel on the extractor if it is there will allow the extractor to slide over the rim of a case that is all ready in the barrel but the slide has failed to close

ps I used to shoot the RCBS 45-200swc (the one with the very short nose/ 2 lube)

Yes the 1911 is a controled round firearm but with the bevel added it will work when the round is in front of the extractor

When I was shooting IPSC and had a round fail to feed/ close fully (dirty gun-- very dirty)
it just needed that last 3/16-1/4 to close, a hit with the supporting hand to the back of the slide was enough to put the gun back it to battery
and it was quicker than trying to clear a round that had failed to slide under the extractor
the front bevel will help

[Forrest r]

Animal has known for some time it's an inertial issue, so that doesn't need to be rehashed.

I'm glad you feel that this doesn't need to be rehashed. Some how know one ever mentioned any inertial issues including the op until I did in post #23. No matter how you slice & dice it mag issues are mag issues and turning a blind eye to this and changing other pieces and parts is nothing more than grabbing at straws.

[Forrest r]

The defined release and commercial magazines cannot be tuned due to the controlled release bend in the feed lilps. Only GI magazines are truly tunable.

Nothing could be further from the truth!!!!

I use/run any and all of my swc (commercial) mags with .37 in the back and .41 in the front. I set the gaps before ever using a new mag and have on every semi-auto I've ever owned. Heck the high end target model semi-autos come with mags and directions stating that the mags should be tuned to the pistol. Even the lowly marvel conversion kit for the 1911 was no different, the spare mags had to be tuned to the kit to get them to run/function flawlessly. After thinning the herd I'm down to springfield oem mags & 10 round shooting star mags. The shooting stars don't have the dimple in the follower and the oem mags do.

At the end of the day it really doesn't seem to matter, my 1911 runs flawlessly with any & every ammo I've ran thru it, 15,000+ rounds now without a jam, ftf or any other issues. I can mix and match lite target loads with p+ loads with factory swc's and ball ammo in the same mag and dump them as fast as I can pull the trigger and not have any issues. But what do I know, I use/run progressive springs and tune mags that can't be tuned in some peoples eyes.

Do yourself a huge favor and make sure the mag springs are in correct, keep the oil/grease off the the inside of the mag lips, and set/tune the lips on your mags to your firearm/reloads.

[Animal]

I'm glad you feel that this doesn't need to be rehashed. Some how know one ever mentioned any inertial issues including the op until I did in post #23. No matter how you slice & dice it mag issues are mag issues and turning a blind eye to this and changing other pieces and parts is nothing more than grabbing at straws.

Forrest r, I had considered putting "inertial issue" as the probable cause for the problem, but I don't consider myself experienced enough to back-up that claim amongst others who would challenge that claim (assuming someone would challenge it). That is the problem with "knowing enough to be dangerous" ;-). I felt that if I provided enough information about the problem and the methods I used to diagnose or repair the problem, the fact that it was an inertial issue would eventually be self-evident.

In my occupation, the last thing I have patience for is a person who comes to me with a problem, but wants to shoot down every approach I instruct them to take, as if they had more knowledge on the subject than I do. That is a common human flaw, yet it is one of my pet peeves. I approached my technical difficulties in this thread the same way I'd like to be approached by others. Hope this make sense. BTW, I appreciate the insight that you have provided.

[Forrest r]

Forrest r, I had considered putting "inertial issue" as the probable cause for the problem, but I don't consider myself experienced enough to back-up that claim amongst others who would challenge that claim (assuming someone would challenge it). That is the problem with "knowing enough to be dangerous" ;-). I felt that if I provided enough information about the problem and the methods I used to diagnose or repair the problem, the fact that it was an inertial issue would eventually be self-evident.

In my occupation, the last thing I have patience for is a person who comes to me with a problem, but wants to shoot down every approach I instruct them to take, as if they had more knowledge on the subject than I do. That is a common human flaw, yet it is one of my pet peeves. I approached my technical difficulties in this thread the same way I'd like to be approached by others. Hope this make sense. BTW, I appreciate the insight that you have provided.

Not a problem, just hate to see people trying to mask/hide a problem buy changing things that have nothing to do with the real problem. Inertial feed issues are more common than people think. Interesting that you say " The fact that it was an inertial issue would eventually be self-evident."

That tells me that after a couple months you're still looking at other things as the cause of the problem. Nothing wrong with that, as an outsider looking in and actually reading this post about your 1911 for the 1st time I thought:

Wow!!! Normally this happens with weak mag springs and on the last round (when the spring is the weakest). Yours is happening on the 6th round, not good.

You did an excellent job rebuilding your mags!!!! If every one of them has the same problem on the same round they are extremely consistent, that's a good thing.

Not trying to be a smart ***** or step on any ones toes but this isn't rocket science.

Clean the mag lips & keep them dry
Measure & rest the lips 1/1000th's tighter @ the back and front (that's called tuning), if that doesn't work try 2/1000th's.
Take a marker and coat your mag spring where the mag lock rides/rubs. It could be bend or long binding the mag springs just enough to weaken them.
Is the mag loose (has wiggle room) when it's locked in place in your 1911?
Do the mags sit flush with the bottom of the mag well or do they hang down?
Do the mags jump/drop out of your 1911 when you hit the mag release or do you have to pull them out?

All these things are clues to how your mags function in your 1911.

I like to set my 1911's up so that I need a catchers mitt to catch a standard 7-round steel mag (no weights/pads). They jump out of the gun when the mag release is hit.

Good luck with it

[gray wolf]

I have done some research and have found that the original RIA springs were odd weights. 18lb Recoil spring and 18lb Mainspring. That is totally messed up, 16 and 23 is the standard and should do fine for many different loads.The original FPS has a very pronounced radius on the bottom and the hammer strikes are very high. However, it cycled flawlessly under this condition. That's the way most 1911 pistols are put together now, and that should be telling you something, did you put a small radius on the flat bottom stop ? it needs one don't choo know.I am considering returning it to the original spring weights and FPS, only with higher quality springs. Your putting to much work into springs, stay with the normal set up, anything else is a band aid and will hide the real problem.I've heard that a lot of folks state that the original springs in the RIA are "****" because they don't last long. Perhaps the original spring weights were the key, I doubt it in your case with your problem.unfortunately they just wore out to quickly.


The original FPS has a very pronounced radius on the bottom and the hammer strikes are very high. However, it cycled flawlessly under this condition.
What else do you have to know ? put the darn factory FPS back in the pistol and enjoy shooting it, while your doing that rework the flat bottom staop till it works.

[Animal]

Forrest R, Grey Wolf,

You are both giving me some some things to ponder. It'll be a while before I get to test anything out again. I don't know how soon I'll get to sit down at my bench and start cranking out ammo. Oh the woes of being able to handload... makes one to dang stubborn to go out and buy factory, but time is hardly on the side of a man with a family and a single stage press.

[35remington]

Forrest, I mentioned the inertial issues long, long before you did. Through PM's with Animal, I asked him to use light loads with the same bullets and the same magazines some months ago to see if an inertia problem was present. No malfunctions occurred. Thus you don't get to claim "dibs" on the issue, sorry.

If you fail to recognize my other suggested remedies as helping to address inertial issues, that's your loss as they are exactly that. If you want information about how the other suggestions I've made affect inertial issues, please ask. It's better than being in the dark about them and claiming they're only magazine related. If they were, in fact, only magazine related you might want to try to explain why he's failed to find success with a bunch of the magazines everyone else uses and when strong mag springs have been substituted.

The magazines Animal has have a defined bend in the feed lips that is the release point. Since magazines have a spring temper, the bend cannot be removed as long as that temper remains. It can be flattened a little, but never removed. The magazines will continue to release at that very same point, as it is the widest spot in the feed lips. Trying to flare the magazine lips so wide as to make them release earlier than the defined release point would be a bad idea as that would be way too early. The magazine also might not fit the magwell given the continued presence of the bend.

The purpose of "tuning" magazines is to alter the release point either earlier or later to suit variable types of ammo. His cannot be altered in this way.

Your "tuning" of your wadcutter lip magazines to a taper is unnecessary as the hybrid Colt magazine style come already tapered and are easy to purchase at reasonable cost.. Animal has this type, so "tuning" them is pointless.

Now....back to topic.

[Forrest r]

Thank you for your reply remington35, I'm sure you did mention inertial feed long before I did, glad to see you know enough about 1911's to recognize it. Actually it sounds like you recognized it & have been working on it for 2+ months now. It's just that I've never dealt with mag issues by working on the slide.

I was just making a couple simple & free suggestions like looking @ the mag lock. If it's out of spec, bent or burred it will hang up which round in the mag? You got it, the 6th round. It will hag up the next to the last round in the mag, hence the 6th in 7-rounders/ the 7th in 8-rounders/ the 9th in 10-rounders.

As far as bending the lips on the mags, it's a 1/1000th to 2/1000th mod. It's extremely easy to do and yes these type mags can be tuned/altered this way. This is done to not alter the release point. It is done for reliability, hence no feeding issues like inertial feed issues. It's to put more hold/friction/pressure on the round to hold it in place. It ain't guess work nor rocket science, came up with .37 back and .41 front for a reason. I've used those #'s with different mag's for years in several 1911's.

Seeing how you keep making the same statements about "can't do that to those mags". It tells me you're in deep waters with this one. Heck years ago a friend built a 40s&w 1911 & didn't want to spend the $$$$ on a bunch of new mags. So a bunch of us pitched in & gave him our old beat up 45acp mags. He reset the lips/openings (bent them in/smaller) and used them for years in the 40s&w.

I'm sure with more $$$$ and time you'll get animal squared away.

good luck with it.

[35remington]

Tapering the lips wider as you do doesn't put more friction on the round.....it puts less as compared to having just left it alone. The feed lips get wider as the round goes forward, and the drag in tapered lips is primarily on or near the rim, with very much less on the sides of the cartridge.

You should know this. Me having to tell you this pretty much confirms you're not quite sure how everything works.

Straight lip magazines drag on both sides and rim. Thus your claim of increasing reliability with inertial issues by bending the lips out doesn't hold water. He has tapered lip magazines already. No need to modify them.

Suggestions are great. The point being made is that most of the issues relating to magazines alone have already been tried......and getting everyone else up to speed on what has been done focuses the issue and prevents redundancy in the fixes being suggested.

As for the rest of the patronizing tone......let it go. Animal asked that the thread not get contentious and off topic via PM with me earlier. Let's stick to that and agree not to discuss it any more.

[Animal]

These Metalform 7 round magazines have no dimple. Rounded follower. I have to pull them from my magwell, even with 7 rounds loaded in them. I tried them because they were different. A few 1911 fellas on here swear by them. I would assume if they don't even drop from my 1911, they probably don't drop from other 1911s so well. Perhaps my magwell is out of tolerance? The colts are the only ones that drop perfectly every time. The W/C Service plus drop... unpredictably. Yet, people talk about Wilson Combat as if God Created them on the 8th day. I'm not so sure they are worth a flip. But, if they have done well for others, I am happy for those individuals. I wish I had the same mojo.

And as stated, I would like a more relaxed thread. We are all looking for the same outcome, and I appreciate everyones contributions of possible corrections, diagnostic procedures. However, each person has a different path. I like to think each path will end in the same location. That is all I care to say about that.

[Animal]

Oh, and one more thing. 4th picture, last mag on the right, you will see wear marks on the back of the mag. That was not made from my gun, that was made by me and some emory cloth. I wanted to see if polishing a portion of the mag would have any effect on how it drops from the mag well. It did not.

[youngmman]

I'm sure many of you here have much more experience experimenting with magazines than I do but when I was having trouble with my 1911 using the LBT 225 LFN and the Lyman 225 RN. I consulted the magazine guide I included on post #36.

The key according to the author was control of the round throughout the cycle. Operating the slide with dummy rounds showed that several of the magazine samples let the round pop up prematurely so there was no control. The two brands that let the round pop up only after it had partially entered the chamber, so there was no option for it to go elsewhere, were the Ed Brown 8 Pack and the Wilson Service Magazine. Either one of them is made with either 7 or 8 round capacity and each has a dimple.


The LBT OAL is 1.20" and the Lyman OAL is 1.272". I should add that as a prerequisite to testing anything I checked the extractor tension with Wigand gauge from Brownells and found it was less than a pound on my new Springfield. I set it to 4lbs as the mid range of between 3.5lbs-4.5lbs recommended in the Jerry Kuhnhausen shop manual.

I have not had one ftf or fte since.

For what it's worth to you.

[C. Latch]

Hey, send me a private message with your address.....

[Forrest r]

Tapering the lips wider as you do doesn't put more friction on the round.....it puts less as compared to having just left it alone. The feed lips get wider as the round goes forward, and the drag in tapered lips is primarily on or near the rim, with very much less on the sides of the cartridge.

You should know this. Me having to tell you this pretty much confirms you're not quite sure how everything works.

Straight lip magazines drag on both sides and rim. Thus your claim of increasing reliability with inertial issues by bending the lips out doesn't hold water. He has tapered lip magazines already. No need to modify them.

Suggestions are great. The point being made is that most of the issues relating to magazines alone have already been tried......and getting everyone else up to speed on what has been done focuses the issue and prevents redundancy in the fixes being suggested.

As for the rest of the patronizing tone......let it go. Animal asked that the thread not get contentious and off topic via PM with me earlier. Let's stick to that and agree not to discuss it any more.

Glad to see you playing your childish games and got it backwards as usual. You're the only one saying to either widen the lips/change the release point and then complaining/blaming someone else, more smoke and mirrors. Post #43 clearly reads (Measure & rest the lips 1/1000th's tighter @ the back and front). Glad to see that tighter means wider to you, go figure. If you'd quit posting the exact opposite of what people write then blaming them for your words animal wouldn't be asking anyone to have a more "relaxed thread".

Animal, I asked about how the mags dropped because you are having mag issues there's a possibility that something in the mag well is binding the mag springs. The mags not dropping from your 1911 fully loaded is not good. The real area of interest/concern should be with the mag lock (the part that holds the mag in place in the mag well via the small notch on the right side of the mag). If they (mag lock) have too flat of a bottom or stick too far into the mag they will slow/bind/weaken the springs in your mags. But they will only do it on the 2nd to the last round, ie 6th round in a 7-round mag/9th round in a 10-round mag, etc. Seeing how you are only having problems with the 6th round (next to the last round in your 7-round mags). It's something to look at & will cost you nothing but a little of your time.

The last round (7th & 10th) in a 7-round and 10-round mag. A pointer is pointing to the mag lock slot in the 10-round mag. Note that with both mags, the spring is in the mag lock window (ie can't bind under the mag lock/too high/past the bottom of the ma lock).

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/lastround_zpsa2e8d9b9.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/lastround_zpsa2e8d9b9.jpg.html)

The 2nd to the last round (6th in a 7-round mag/9th in a 10-round mag) in both mags. Note that the spring is at the bottom edge of the mag lock window. If the mag lock is binding on the spring/holding it down in any way, you will loose pressure/tension on your 6th round in your mags, hence, loose bullet that can inertial feed.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/2ndround_zpsb2e614f8.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/2ndround_zpsb2e614f8.jpg.html)

With 3 rounds in the mags the spring is taken out of play, you can see the bottoms of the followers.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/3rdround_zps6d7f66b9.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/3rdround_zps6d7f66b9.jpg.html)

Just something to look at that doesn't cost you anything. Good luck

[35remington]

Response to the above via PM to Animal, as requested.

[C. Latch]

Hey, send me a private message with your address.....


Animal....hello?

Shoot me a message or email with your address. Post Office closes soon today!

[Animal]

UPDATE

Folks, after a few suggestions were made on this thread, I did a great deal of research on common problems with the RIA M1911 A1 Govt.. The magazine catch has apparently caused a great deal of trouble for owners of the RIA A1.

There are 2 things that I suspect were problematic with my magazine catch;

1. Magazine catch protruded far too deeply into the magazine body, causing the spring to bind 50% of the time

And/Or

2. Frame slightly out of tolerance, causing the magazine catch to sit too low.

The second was the common failure for most RIA customers. The first seemed to be a problem that was unique to my gun; assuming it was a problem. I'm only speculating on this as a problem because I don't have enough experience to determine how much is too much.

So this was my solution, as was also the solution of others. I purchased an EGw HD Magazine Catch
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2160267225/egw-hd-raised-magazine-catch-1911

Unfortunately, the catch was not a drop in replacement. I did have to spend some time dressing the edges with a medium stone. I don't consider this to be a draw back. I think EGW does a fine job of making quality parts, and they also understand that the best fit is often a customized fit.

After I had the mag catch installed and ready for action, I installed a few empty magazine bodies into the mag well with the slide removed. It was obvious right away that the mag catch holds the mag slightly higher than the stock mag catch. I noticed that there was very little play in the magazine itself. I shined a light down the mag well to see how far the magazine catch protruded into the mag body. I couldn't even see the mag catch unless I was viewing it at an angle. I wouldn't be a bit suprised if my old mag catch protruded about 50/1000 of an inch. Anyway, I don't know how much difference this makes in performance, but I know that there is no way the mag spring would bind against the EGW catch.

After the swap was complete, I made 200 test rounds of my normal generic ball ammo with the Lyman 452374. This morning, while thinking about everyone's input on spring weights, I prepared my gun. In installed a Wolf 16lb recoil spring, Wolf 23lb mainspring, my EGW small radius FPS and even the firing pin spring that came with my Wolf Recoil spring. I don't know why they send a firing pin spring with a recoil spring, but shoot, I'll take it. I brought 6 colt 7 round magazines along to the range. 3 Colts were sprung with standard colt springs and 3 colts were sprung with Wolf extra power recoil springs.

1. Here are my results 1 round out of 200 chambered ahead of the extractor. (which was the recurring problem I was attempting to remedy.)
I decided not to scrutinize this too much because there are multiple possibilities that could have caused this. Perhaps a limp wristed a little? Perhaps enough boolit lube found its way to the feed lips? Perhaps I didn't lube the slide enough? Maybe my brass is simply worn out around the case head? Since this happened 150 rounds into 200, I hate to rule out these variables.
2. Wolf extra power springs might be too powerful.
On 4 occasions the slide locked back before it ever had a chance to snag up the first round (which appeared to be held in place by the dimple on the follower).
Note: Since the slide locked back before the last round could engage, I am blaming this on the Wolf spring engaging the slide stop prematurely. Not a failure of the gun and its configuration.
3. Colt springs cured the slide lock problem, however, I believe the standard colt springs might have been too weak to reliably engage the slide stop. The slide locked back on the last round with 50% reliability, however.

Note: Since the problem was almost always a problem with round 6 in a 7 round magazine, I only loaded each magazine with 5 rounds. This provided 40 magazine swaps. The only swap that I had the round in the chamber ahead of the extractor was during the use of Colt standard magazine springs.

Note: This is the first time in my guns life that I had such a neat pile of brass. I thought I had a decent pile before, but I could hear just about every piece of brass "tinging" on other brass as it hit the ground. I'd say the pile nestled about 3-4 feet away from me at approx 3:30.

Unless I have the problem with the rounds ahead of the extractor again, I think I'm closing the book on this issue. I now know that I have a problem with the slide either locking back too early with Wolf springs or not locking back at all with standard springs.

Maybe my slide stop is a problem? I dunno

35remington taught me about these guns. If it weren't for him, I'd surely be scratching my head right now about inertia issues, timing, magazine feedlips and a whole mess of other things. I can sit down in my recliner, close my eyes and visually see the process of how the 1911 works, and I even dare say that I understand it. Also, custom fitting parts like an FPS or a magazine catch were previously procedures I thought were beyond the scope of my skill level. If it weren't for him, I doubt I'd be confident with a stone.
Gray Wolf never fails to write a post that I don't learn something from. I always enjoy reading his concise input. He baisically told me that if a 1911 needs an 18lb recoil spring and a 20lb mainspring to function properly, then the blasted gun ain't built right. Also, the comment about "they put a radius on the FPS for a reason don't choo know!" is a good swift kick in the rear to make one refer back to the K.I.S.S. method.
Forrest R, you got me to think outside of the box and quit worrying about my magazines. I had already stated that every magazine seems to cause the problems that I was having, but you also got me to thinking about "what can possibly cause the same symptom with all magazines tested". Yet, another KISS concept.
Shoot, Char-Gar didn't even provide in input in my thread, but I've been thinking that this thread is what spawned his thread on "1911 functioning reliability". I read what he had to say about folks not paying proper attention to how the gun is intended to be fired, and limp-wristing being a common problem with todays 1911 shooters. His thread gave me a kick in the pants to be sure I was consistently providing the firm, strong, 2 handed grip to prevent failures from too loose of a stance.

Thanks folks

[C. Latch]

Glad to hear you got it running. I know the frustration of having a gun that isn't 'just right'.

[35remington]

The goal is.....zero rounds ahead of the extractor. I hope you're going in the right direction, but you've called this "cured" before.....and it wasn't.

Keep shooting to be sure you've got it. 1 round in 200 going ahead of the extractor says we're not there yet and have not cured a contributing cause of the problem. The goal is zero in thousands of rounds.

They included a firing pin spring with the recoil spring because the firing pin is held in place and resists inertial forces of its own, and cannot be worn out to the point it's weak. Picture what happens to the firing pin when the slide slams shut. Where does it have a tendency to move?

The small radius stop is JMB's original design and was in place when the pistol passed the endurance tests......5000 rounds without a malfunction. Making yours that way is "back to original specs" which should be the direction taken.

Take a good look at the slide stop engagement on the follower of the magazines you are using.

[Animal]

The goal is.....zero rounds ahead of the extractor. I hope you're going in the right direction, but you've called this "cured" before.....and it wasn't.



You are right. And this has been on the back of my mind. The last time I called it cured, I used half the rounds that I used today. When the failure occurred, I was using standard Colt springs. I'm going to go ahead and put my Wolff springs in my other 3 colt mags and go from there. I can't help but think if I had used the Wolff springs from the start to the end that the malfunction wouldn't have occurred. Maybe I'm wrong, but it is a gut feeling.

I'll be examining how the follower is engaging the slide stop. Thanks!

[Markbo]

I am not being smart assed here...i am truly curious. Did gou ever contact or consider returning your arm to the manufacturer to fix it? Once the few aftermarket parts were replace with original parrs it seems to me that would have been an easy way to get a diagnosis and a repair.

[Animal]

I am not being smart assed here...i am truly curious. Did gou ever contact or consider returning your arm to the manufacturer to fix it? Once the few aftermarket parts were replace with original parrs it seems to me that would have been an easy way to get a diagnosis and a repair.

I did think about sending it back to RIA. I figured they would put a few rounds of j-word ball ammo through it and determine that the firearm was working properly, just as it performed when I put 100 rounds of Armscore ball ammo through it for initial break-in. It wouldn't have hurt anything to send it back, but with all the folks on this forum who are so knowledgeable and willing to sacrifice their own time to help me troubleshoot the problem, I couldn't help but feel that I would shortchange myself in a good education if I did. The 1911 is new to me and I wanted to know everything about it. I have no regrets of the time and money I've spent on ammo,springs, FPS, magcatch and wear and tear on my press and dies. I'm better for it.

I might not have understood the last sentence in your post. The FPS is non-stock, the main spring and recoil spring weights are non-stock and the mag catch is also non-stock.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Here is the thing to me. What a person should do when they get ANY new pistol new out of the box is test fire it and if there is a serious problem send it back to factory. RIA has a reputation for excellent customer service!

If the pistol runs and you want to change some parts so be it.then if you have problems you can figure it's something you did and set it straight! I don't follow that rule all the time but am familiar with the 1911 platform and as long as all parts are in spec,(yes this is a military weapon and there are real blueprints for it) then I can usually straighten things out! Just sayin!

This pistol has been used for over 100 years,in two World Wars,I mean it works,as JMB designed it!

[Love Life]

How much time and money are you into this gun now?

[Animal]

Gun worked great first 500 rounds, as stated in my original post. Time and money? Dont know. Someone making an offer?

[seagiant]

Gun worked great first 500 rounds, as stated in my original post. Time and money? Dont know. Someone making an offer?
Hi,
I'm sorry but the pistol should be working BETTER after 500 rds. as you have broken the pistol in! I can't help but think,it is something you did? These pistols (RIA) are flying off the shelves and admittedly not every one is trouble free,but we know with the Internet and the communication that we have now, that if a certain brand of pistol is a *** it does not take long for this fact to get spread around!

Rather than sale it. Put the original parts back in it and send it to Nevada and let the guys at RIA look at it. They will probably pay postage also. If it is off spec or they can not get it to run,you will be taken care of!

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475761

[Pinsnscrews]

Just curious...

Did you try just loading 3 rounds and see if it still happens?

Theoretically speaking, that first round should fire, then the FTF should happen on the next round.

If you did, and I missed it in your report, I apologize for my oversight.

[rosewood]

I didn't read through all post, but if I missed something please forgive me. I thought standard .45acp recoil spring was 14 lbs? The .40 came with 16 I thought. Too stiff may cause issues. Also, have you been dropping rounds directly in the chamber and slamming shut? The 1911 extractor can't handle that. I messed my 10mm up doing that until I found an article explaining it and I finally tuned it back to work correctly. Always load a 1911 from the mag. Just some thoughts.

Rosewood

[gray wolf]

I didn't read through all post, but if I missed something please forgive me. I thought standard .45acp recoil spring was 14 lbs? The .40 came with 16 I thought. Too stiff may cause issues. Also, have you been dropping rounds directly in the chamber and slamming shut? The 1911 extractor can't handle that. I messed my 10mm up doing that until I found an article explaining it and I finally tuned it back to work correctly. Always load a 1911 from the mag. Just some thoughts.

Rosewood

Correct, load from the mag, it's a control feed not a push feed.
16 pound recoil and 23 pound main spring is considered the norm for quite some time now.
16 pound is not over sprung for a decent target load up to ball ammo.
Very low mouse loads may need a lower spring rate.

[rosewood]

Correct, load from the mag, it's a control feed not a push feed.
16 pound recoil and 23 pound main spring is considered the norm for quite some time now.
16 pound is not over sprung for a decent target load up to ball ammo.
Very low mouse loads may need a lower spring rate.

Gotcha. I replaced my main spring with 19lb on both my P14 and P12 in .45 acp, but left the 23lb in the 10mm as the stiffer recoil spring slamming the slide shut worried me. They all work great. I also invented my own trigger mod with small bearings and lock cylinder tumbler springs. The para triggers are plastic, so drilling them out for the springs and bearings was a snap. So they glide forward and back smoothly vs dragging on the frame. :)